Let's be real here, folks. No matter how much Apple Kool-Aid you drink, PCs, in any form (remember that Macs are PCs too), aren't going anywhere for a long while.
I don't think anyone rational, including Apple or Jobs, is claiming that PC's are "going anywhere".
However I do think, especially for normal people and home users, they will become less relevant. Most people - like my parents - have a general purpose personal computer (a couple of Mac's) not because it's what they wanted, but because it was the only choice they had. With the iPad, my Dad has exactly what he wants. A computing appliance that allows him to get email, web and applications like sports scores, stats and tracking, that he's interested in - all without the overhead of a traditional computer that he has absolutely no interest in at all.
That's where iOS is going to displace the traditional general purpose personal computer. I have no doubt that sooner or later there will be iOS native laptops and desktops - or versions of Mac OSX that out of the box that are identical in feel to iOS.
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People who do real work, in any field (film production, music composition, web site and application development, graphics work, the list goes on) require the basic idea of a desktop (laptop, desktop, all in one) in order to get things done. Without a mouse and keyboard and multi-window user interface, people who use computers to get things done won't ever consider a tablet over a work machine.
Yup, those users will never go away - heck, for a good chunk of my time I'm one of them too! But they are the minority of potential users out there. That's the important distinction.
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Sure, for Mom and Pop who just browse the internet and email with others, a tablet may fit the bill. But you can't discount hundreds of millions of machines being used for work other than the basics of computing; sure, maybe in twenty years things will be different, but the traditional PC won't be going anywhere anytime soon.
Again, hundreds of millions of the machines that are out there are there because they were the best solution at the time. There's a new paradigm in town, and if 50% of those machines were replaced by a traditional Windows or Mac machine I'd be shocked.
I do give HP kudos for peering into the future and discerning that much! It's already very, very hard to compete in the Windows marketplace today. Now that iOS is starting to suck a healthy portion of the oxygen out of the room, it's going to get that much harder.
The irony is, Apple owns the high end of the market - and always has. Now instead of trying to compete in the low end of the market with Netbooks and ultra-crappy ultra-cheesy low end machines, they invented a whole new market paradigm that is replacing the low end PC market. Vendors are getting squeezed - and squeezed hard! - from both ends by, of all companies, Apple!
It's truly a fun time to be a tech enthusiast. Especially one who's had to endure the almost decade of "beleaguered" that almost proved to be true, then the next decade of "Apple Tax". And now the pathetically frantic protestations of "fanboys" and "tricked into buying style over substance".
Apple has little to fear from Google, Microsoft or anyone else - at least right now. Because right now, they are the only company that is singularly focused on their real customer - the end user.
They have been criticized as not being "serious" for being consumer focused, derided for being "developer hostile", complained at for not bowing to the enterprise and kissing the IT priesthoods feet - more ways that Apple is destined for failure have been created than I can track! And yet their growth continually accelerates, quarter after quarter - year after year. You would think that people would be getting the message by now - and yet the entire tech industry seems wholly incapable of processing and admitting to the real reason for Apple's success.
Then again, for an industry that tends to deride non-technical users with such charming terms as "Lusers" and "newbs" perhaps I shouldn't be so surprised. Heck, I've fallen into that trap myself...
Always the sign that a high quality discussion is about to ensue!
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But its not just icloud, when your little ipad can produce usefull data visualizations with large sets as fast as I can on my PC with Excel and PowerPivot, give me a call...
Here is why you will continue to be mystified and evidently angered by Apple's continued steamrolling of the traditional tech market - the use case you outlined affects maybe 2% of the people on the planet.
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The iPad is a PC replacment only for those who only consume and occasionally email. For teh rest of us, it is an accessory.
A gross oversimplification of the iPad and iOS by a typical tech snob. My father does far more than web, email or "consumption only" with his iPad. For him, it is his sole computer and more than what he needs.
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saying that the ipad replaces a PC is like saying that the neck tie replaces the button up shirt...it does not replace it -- it complements it.
The iPad doesn't replace the PC - that much is obvious.
What the iPad does is fill a niche where before the PC was chosen not because it was the best fit, but because it was the only choice at the time. I have no doubt that for the fast majority of people on the planet, an iOS device will be their primary computing device. That may seem like a crazy claim given the nature of these forums, but remember it doesn't get much more "inside baseball" than hanging out and posting on a technology related forum! Those of us even reading MacWorld, let alone posting in these forums are an edge case of an edge case of an edge case! It's why iPad sales are continuing to accelerate, instead of level off or retreat. The iPad isn't necessarily aimed at us - although I use mine all the time as a supplemental piece of technology. But there are fare more for whom it is more than sufficient as a primary computing device - and that is what Apple is positioning themselves for with iCloud and the, at first blush, insane move of "demoting" the Mac to a peer.
Folks, tell me what is the difference between a "PC" (desktop/laptop) and a "Post-PC" device (aka smartphones/tablets etc) ?
The key difference between iOS and traditional PC's, or even OS's like Android, is experience.
iOS is an experience - an Appliance. Traditional "computer" terminology and concepts are eschewed (leading to ridicule and marginalization by techies). Instead, iOS devices are results oriented. Look at the way they are advertised: Apple "Here is how we can help you do X, Y and Z" - Everyone else "Your girlfriend will flip over the dual core processor"
Huh?
And people wonder why iPad and iPhone sales are accelerating? Seriously? Can people really be that dense?
The key difference between iOS and traditional PC's, or even OS's like Android, is experience.
iOS is an experience - an Appliance. Traditional "computer" terminology and concepts are eschewed (leading to ridicule and marginalization by techies). Instead, iOS devices are results oriented. Look at the way they are advertised: Apple "Here is how we can help you do X, Y and Z" - Everyone else "Your girlfriend will flip over the dual core processor"
Huh?
And people wonder why iPad and iPhone sales are accelerating? Seriously? Can people really be that dense?
So you are saying the difference is HOW is it being MARKETED, rather HOW is it different in concept.
Whats so ironic is, isnt Apple's Mac OSX and its entire computer line up a "personal" computer ? Aka a "PC" too?
We don't hook up to the mainframe computer to run our operating system or system resources now do we? I'm old enough to have first hand experience with these things by the way.
Only the Chrome OS, currently, is a true "Non-PC" as it utilizes the "cloud" as its OS/system resources of which without it, its just a fancy paper weight or a "dumb terminal" as we liked to call it back in the day.
So Apple, please, stop calling it the end of the "PC era when you yourself is still using a "PC". Speaking of which, if transitioning from the Mac OSX to the iOS platform is considered the "post" PC era, you are all wrong yet again. Why? Because the OS and its core functionality still resides within the device, it is still "personal".
When the essential functionality of an OS resides at another place, THEN can you claim that that particular item is a "non-PC".
When people say its a PC vs Mac world, they dont know what they are talking about.
Give you an analogy:
It's like comparing HDTV vs LCD. HDTV is a general category. LCD is a specific type of HDTV. Plasmas are also a specific type of HDTV.
PC is considered a general category. Mac is a specific type of PC. Windows is also a specific type of PC.
Why are people calling it a PC vs Mac when it really should be Windows vs Mac?
Why does Apple do this? Pure marketing.
It still baffles my mind whenever I hear those comparison phrases.
It's hilarious that Apple tries to differentiate itself away from the general category when it itself resides in one.
You are only partially correct. The term PC has for a long time been interpreted by many to mean a wintel box as opposed to a Mac. The Term was coined with the IBM PC (see link below). So when we long time Mac users refer to a PC we mean a wintel box not a personal computer that may also be a Mac. You'd have to ask Steve what he meant by PC in Post PC.
I had several of these as well as Apple equipment and worked in computers throughout this era so the distinction is very clear to me. I can see how those that grew up with the term PC could assume it literally meant any personal computer.
PCs will become more like tablets (gaining simplification and ease of use), tablets will become more like PC (gaining more features), but HP wasn't very good at either in the grand scheme of things.
iOS is succeeding because it's nothing like a traditional PC OS
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Microsoft has already made it clear there shouldn't be much difference between a tablet and a PC, and will hopefully success with Windows 8 as long as they avoid just strapping on a touch layer onto a desktop OS.
Well, if a Windows tablet will be "full windows" how can it be anything other than Windows with a touch layer "strapped on"?
The two concepts are at odds with each other. Apple is successful with iOS because they were willing to throw out the traditional computing paradigms and break new ground.
Apple will have little to fear from Microsoft as long as they stick to this bone-headed notion that all they need is Windows on a tablet to succeed. It hasn't worked for the last 10 years, and it really isn't going to work for the next 10 years now that there are products like the iPad to show the way.
That's why HP's total fumbling of WebOS is so disappointing. They were the only ones really positioning themselves to compete on the same playing field with Apple. Now it will be interesting to see if anyone will be able to really step up or not. I'm not holding my breath
You are talking about how the two are being marketed, not the real difference between the two categories.
How they are being marketed is also describing the difference between the two categories. That you keep missing the obvious isn't a problem of the market, iOS or PC's - it's purely your inability to perceive the real difference isn't technology but how that technology is presented and made (or not made) accessible.
That's key for how my Dad views the iPad. Not as a computer - he doesn't want a computer! Instead, it's that thing that let's him look up information, communicate with friends and family, etc. It's relevant to him for what it does, not because of what it is.
It's appealing to him because it's NOT a computer. It's a device that works in a intuitive and intimate way. Case in point - you probably think using a mouse is no big deal. He's 73 - once I finally got him used to a mouse and then handed him a notebook with a touchpad, I had to start all over again. Not so with the iPad. He sees it, he can touch it and manipulate it directly. No abstraction. It's immediately intuitive and very intimate.
If your first reaction is "that's lame" or "he's stupid" - bingo. Your the problem, not the market. There are far more of my father out there than you and that's the difference and why iOS will own the market while PC's decline.
HP didn't just decide to hop out of PC's as well on a whim.... they saw the obvious handwriting on the wall. The traditional PC market is starting a downward spiral - heck, Acer has already learned the hard way that the low end of the market has a new king in town...
Oops, time warp 101. Laps won't replace desktops cost/ performanc willnadvance for both, ....
iPads will eventually supersede laptops for 90% of people and when they need big iron, they will use the cloud.
Rarely has ANYONE said PCs go away, but their portion of market, mindshare, and innovation will diminish over time.
If MS insists on pushing the desktop onto the tablet, like the last 15 years, they will continue to be marginalized in these new markets. iPod, iPhones all over again.
Their advantage is that they are taking their time to do whatever they will do right (Android, Chrome, Blackberry, and WebOS are not). Their danger is that they are afraid of being their own strongest disruptive competitor dooming themselves to rehashing their early failed tablets.
Give Apple credit it's new products have always been a threat to their existing products and businesses, but this is what you got to do..
So MS needs to build the Post-PC products and Services that kills their PCs and then they will own the new market. Do they have the ideas more importantly the guts?
iOS is succeeding because it's nothing like a traditional PC OS
Well, if a Windows tablet will be "full windows" how can it be anything other than Windows with a touch layer "strapped on"?
The two concepts are at odds with each other. Apple is successful with iOS because they were willing to throw out the traditional computing paradigms and break new ground.
So your definition of a "PC" is in how "powerful" or versatile the OS is. Form factor does not matter to you, no?
Any device, regardless of its form factor, with a less "powerful" OS will be deemed a "Post-PC".
Kind of like how a netbook isnt a "full" laptop?
So does that mean the iOS devices are kind of like the netbook of laptops? Since they are less "powerful" than a "full" OS like the Mac OSX.
But, since you or someone else stated that since iOS is 80% OSX, would'nt all the iOS devices also be a "PC" by the majority rule?
How they are being marketed is also describing the difference between the two categories. That you keep missing the obvious isn't a problem of the market, iOS or PC's - it's purely your inability to perceive the real difference isn't technology but how that technology is presented and made (or not made) accessible.
That's key for how my Dad views the iPad. Not as a computer - he doesn't want a computer! Instead, it's that thing that let's him look up information, communicate with friends and family, etc. It's relevant to him for what it does, not because of what it is.
It's appealing to him because it's NOT a computer. It's a device that works in a intuitive and intimate way. Case in point - you probably think using a mouse is no big deal. He's 73 - once I finally got him used to a mouse and then handed him a notebook with a touchpad, I had to start all over again. Not so with the iPad. He sees it, he can touch it and manipulate it directly. No abstraction. It's immediately intuitive and very intimate.
If your first reaction is "that's lame" or "he's stupid" - bingo. Your the problem, not the market. There are far more of my father out there than you and that's the difference and why iOS will own the market while PC's decline.
HP didn't just decide to hop out of PC's as well on a whim.... they saw the obvious handwriting on the wall. The traditional PC market is starting a downward spiral - heck, Acer has already learned the hard way that the low end of the market has a new king in town...
All it is, is a device that has all the excess fat cut out while keeping the essentials. That is the only difference. It is still a "PC", in my opinion, according to the broad generalized definition of the word, regardless of marketing folks like to say otherwise.
Oops, time warp 101. Laps won't replace desktops cost/ performanc willnadvance for both, ....
iPads will eventually supersede laptops for 90% of people and when they need big iron, they will use the cloud.
Rarely has ANYONE said PCs go away, but their portion of market, mindshare, and innovation will diminish over time.
If MS insists on pushing the desktop onto the tablet, like the last 15 years, they will continue to be marginalized in these new markets. iPod, iPhones all over again.
Their advantage is that they are taking their time to do whatever they will do right (Android, Chrome, Blackberry, and WebOS are not). Their danger is that they are afraid of being their own strongest disruptive competitor dooming themselves to rehashing their early failed tablets.
Give Apple credit it's new products have always been a threat to their existing products and businesses, but this is what you got to do..
So MS needs to build the Post-PC products and Services that kills their PCs and then they will own the new market. Do they have the ideas more importantly the guts?
Ah, you have hit the nail on the head in the last paragraph. History is littered with companies that could not compete with their own successful products and died. In fact it seems to be the norm not the exception. Apple, as you say, succeeds by having no fear of their new innovations making long time successful products obsolete.
All it is, is a device that has all the excess fat cut out while keeping the essentials.
iOS is a total re-imaginging of the interface. While there are core technologies and API's that are shared between Mac OSX and iOS, the user interface elements and overall design of the system is unique to iOS. Insinuating that it's about "just cutting excess fat while keeping the essentials" just demonstrates that you really are completely clueless as to why iOS is taking off and Windows tablets are still going nowhere.
Yes, there are areas of overlap - but iOS verses what Microsoft has stated for Windows 8 tablet or whatever they are going to name it and what Google has delivered for Android are two entirely different things!
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That is the only difference. It is still a "PC", in my opinion, according to the broad generalized definition of the word, regardless of marketing folks like to say otherwise.
Your still hung up on technology! Whether it's a PC or not is irrelevant! And really, whether it runs Windows, Mac OS, iOS, or Plan 9 is irrelevant. The iPad and iPhone are about the experience.
The computer for the rest of us.
It's not just a cheesy phrase (and nor is it "just marketing"). If it does work without people having to think of it as a computer - that's sizzle! My father couldn't care less that the iPad runs iOS written by Apple. What he cares about is he can pick it up and the thing immediately makes sense. It does meaningful work without forcing him to adapt to the technology. He doesn't have to learn mice, windows, file systems or any other such gobbledygook. He can put it down, pick it up and pick up right from where he left off. All the information and "files" he wants are always available, at his fingertips, where he expects them. There are no surprises. It's very predictable.
It's not a science project or tech for the sake of tech.
So you can argue about PC, Post PC, real computer, consumption device, media tablet, marketing - whatever inside baseball circle jerk floats your boat. Guess what he doesn't care! The iPad is here, he has it, it does all he wants without getting in the way and for that he loves it.
And he is not alone, nor is he in the minority. We are.
So there. I don't know how else I can explain it. If you still don't get it it, oh well - I tried. Protest all you want - it's irrelevant. The market is speaking and it's just getting started. With iCloud, Apple is getting ready to tie a bow on the the true meaning of hassle and "PC-free" computing. This is just the warm up...
All it is, is a device that has all the excess fat cut out while keeping the essentials. That is the only difference. It is still a "PC", in my opinion, according to the broad generalized definition of the word, regardless of marketing folks like to say otherwise.
Hey, I got a new term for it: mini-PC.
I still think you are missing the point that for three decades the term PC had a specific meaning that transcends the literal words. A 'PC' was (and always be) a Wintel box, pure and simple while Apple made Apple ][s, Apple ///s, Lisa and Macs. It is a fact the term PC was a marketing phrase by IBM and then picked up by clone makers such as Compaq when Billy Boy stabbed IBM in the back. So in a way you have it backwards when you accuse Apple of using marketing to manipulate the term PC.
P.s. Google 'origin of the term PC' then perhaps you will grasp the fact that sometimes your opinion can just be
So your definition of a "PC" is in how "powerful" or versatile the OS is. Form factor does not matter to you, no?
No, my definition of PC is in the traditional sense of what "PC" has meant for the last several decades. Expandable hardware with general purpose operating systems that try to be solutions for just about any problem, that are open ended and expandable depending on how the operator wants to use them.
I'm not saying that's bad - I like traditional PC's (Windows or Mac) mind you. It's just what they are.
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"Any device, regardless of its form factor, with a less "powerful" OS will be deemed a "Post-PC".
Kind of like how a netbook isnt a "full" laptop? "
Power is an illusion. To most techies - such as yourself - power is something to be benchmarked and measured. To my father, power is the ability to do work by having the technology conform to him, not the other way around. For that reason, a traditional PC is totally unappealing to him for all the reasons that I first was attracted to them!
As for netbooks, I don't deem them "full" laptop's because they are a compromised experience. All is sacrificed for price - performance, build quality, resources - lopped off in haphazard and uncoordinated ways that make the overall experience of using one absolutely painful. And if upgraded to be useable, they are often more expensive than non-netbook alternatives. It's no surprise to me netbook sales have tanked - they suck!
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So does that mean the iOS devices are kind of like the netbook of laptops? Since they are less "powerful" than a "full" OS like the Mac OSX.
Sigh - you are going to have a rough and tough next few years trying to reconcile the success of iOS.
You ever heard of the phrase "less is more"? Meditate on that one for a while and you might understand more clearly why your question is totally irrelevant in the context of this discussion.
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But, since you or someone else stated that since iOS is 80% OSX, would'nt all the iOS devices also be a "PC" by the majority rule?
Nope - since technology is not the critical defining factor. You need to get out of your narrow range of thinking and expand your horizons. Get out of the box - literally
I believe that tablets will dominate eventually at least 80% of the market, but not with the technology we have now available to the consumers.
Technology keeps moving, and to the dismay of those who still follow microsoft, Apple is the leading of that new technology, Apple also has the money to keep investing in advancing it really quick.
PC will not die, nobody is saying that, but its use as a mainstream will be replaced by tablets, it will take maybe 5 years, but it is a trend!
The Mac air is an example of what I am saying, it is moving closer to what a tablet is without sacrificing much of what a PC has to offer at least at the consumer level, although I have to say that most of my tasks in my business can be done using an Air.
PCs still will have its use, they will never die, but saying that, PCs and tablets will be moving closer and closer as technology evolves..
...and bad news for the windows people... windows will become a second fiddler to mac operating systems as widespread usage, the gap is closing really fast...unless Microsoft will comeback with a miracle...
iOS is a total re-imaginging of the interface. While there are core technologies and API's that are shared between Mac OSX and iOS, the user interface elements and overall design of the system is unique to iOS. Insinuating that it's about "just cutting excess fat while keeping the essentials" just demonstrates that you really are completely clueless as to why iOS is taking off and Windows tablets are still going nowhere.
Yes, there are areas of overlap - but iOS verses what Microsoft has stated for Windows 8 tablet or whatever they are going to name it and what Google has delivered for Android are two entirely different things!
Your still hung up on technology! Whether it's a PC or not is irrelevant! And really, whether it runs Windows, Mac OS, iOS, or Plan 9 is irrelevant. The iPad and iPhone are about the experience.
The computer for the rest of us.
It's not just a cheesy phrase (and nor is it "just marketing"). If it does work without people having to think of it as a computer - that's sizzle! My father couldn't care less that the iPad runs iOS written by Apple. What he cares about is he can pick it up and the thing immediately makes sense. It does meaningful work without forcing him to adapt to the technology. He doesn't have to learn mice, windows, file systems or any other such gobbledygook. He can put it down, pick it up and pick up right from where he left off. All the information and "files" he wants are always available, at his fingertips, where he expects them. There are no surprises. It's very predictable.
It's not a science project or tech for the sake of tech.
So you can argue about PC, Post PC, real computer, consumption device, media tablet, marketing - whatever inside baseball circle jerk floats your boat. Guess what he doesn't care! The iPad is here, he has it, it does all he wants without getting in the way and for that he loves it.
And he is not alone, nor is he in the minority. We are.
So there. I don't know how else I can explain it. If you still don't get it it, oh well - I tried. Protest all you want - it's irrelevant. The market is speaking and it's just getting started. With iCloud, Apple is getting ready to tie a bow on the the true meaning of hassle and "PC-free" computing. This is just the warm up...
Seems to me that your a very different consumer than I am.
Your the type that would gobble up information thrown out by marketers, chew it and process it.
I'm the type that looks at specs, then marketing information and be skeptical throughout the entire process (whether it is for iOS, Mac, windows, Android or any other devices).
I tend to not weight the marketing speak by others as heavily as the information that I gather myself.
I work closely with marketers in my field and I know first hand what kind of fluff they like to put in to sell the product. As long as its not illegal, they will incorporate it into their plans.
Also, why are you bringing your father into this? I want YOUR opinions, not his.
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The company is betting that, over time, PCs, tablets and smartphones will come together into a "unified ecosystem."
Over time?? This is a "prediction"? How about now! OSX and iOS… desktops/laptops + phone/tablet… in a 'unified ecosystem'…
They describe what Apple is already doing, phrase it as something yet to come, and try to take ownership of it...
It's like 'predicting' the weather a few hours after it happens, and then claiming you were right about it...
Let's be real here, folks. No matter how much Apple Kool-Aid you drink, PCs, in any form (remember that Macs are PCs too), aren't going anywhere for a long while.
I don't think anyone rational, including Apple or Jobs, is claiming that PC's are "going anywhere".
However I do think, especially for normal people and home users, they will become less relevant. Most people - like my parents - have a general purpose personal computer (a couple of Mac's) not because it's what they wanted, but because it was the only choice they had. With the iPad, my Dad has exactly what he wants. A computing appliance that allows him to get email, web and applications like sports scores, stats and tracking, that he's interested in - all without the overhead of a traditional computer that he has absolutely no interest in at all.
That's where iOS is going to displace the traditional general purpose personal computer. I have no doubt that sooner or later there will be iOS native laptops and desktops - or versions of Mac OSX that out of the box that are identical in feel to iOS.
People who do real work, in any field (film production, music composition, web site and application development, graphics work, the list goes on) require the basic idea of a desktop (laptop, desktop, all in one) in order to get things done. Without a mouse and keyboard and multi-window user interface, people who use computers to get things done won't ever consider a tablet over a work machine.
Yup, those users will never go away - heck, for a good chunk of my time I'm one of them too! But they are the minority of potential users out there. That's the important distinction.
Sure, for Mom and Pop who just browse the internet and email with others, a tablet may fit the bill. But you can't discount hundreds of millions of machines being used for work other than the basics of computing; sure, maybe in twenty years things will be different, but the traditional PC won't be going anywhere anytime soon.
Again, hundreds of millions of the machines that are out there are there because they were the best solution at the time. There's a new paradigm in town, and if 50% of those machines were replaced by a traditional Windows or Mac machine I'd be shocked.
I do give HP kudos for peering into the future and discerning that much! It's already very, very hard to compete in the Windows marketplace today. Now that iOS is starting to suck a healthy portion of the oxygen out of the room, it's going to get that much harder.
The irony is, Apple owns the high end of the market - and always has. Now instead of trying to compete in the low end of the market with Netbooks and ultra-crappy ultra-cheesy low end machines, they invented a whole new market paradigm that is replacing the low end PC market. Vendors are getting squeezed - and squeezed hard! - from both ends by, of all companies, Apple!
It's truly a fun time to be a tech enthusiast. Especially one who's had to endure the almost decade of "beleaguered" that almost proved to be true, then the next decade of "Apple Tax". And now the pathetically frantic protestations of "fanboys" and "tricked into buying style over substance".
Apple has little to fear from Google, Microsoft or anyone else - at least right now. Because right now, they are the only company that is singularly focused on their real customer - the end user.
They have been criticized as not being "serious" for being consumer focused, derided for being "developer hostile", complained at for not bowing to the enterprise and kissing the IT priesthoods feet - more ways that Apple is destined for failure have been created than I can track! And yet their growth continually accelerates, quarter after quarter - year after year. You would think that people would be getting the message by now - and yet the entire tech industry seems wholly incapable of processing and admitting to the real reason for Apple's success.
Then again, for an industry that tends to deride non-technical users with such charming terms as "Lusers" and "newbs" perhaps I shouldn't be so surprised. Heck, I've fallen into that trap myself...
1) Both have "personal" OS's ( as in they reside inside said devices).
2) Both have "applications" that are both contained and run inside said device.
3) Both have input methods ("keyboard" or other forms of input).
4) Both have output methods (typically screens/monitors).
The only difference? Form, size and how "powerful" it is.
Netbook vs laptop.
What is its difference?
Size and how "powerful" it is.
Tablets vs laptop
What is its difference?
Physical keyboard
ALL of these devices fall under the broad definition of a "PC".
Don't fall into the trap of marketing speak
We all know that all of these devices are "PCs" in different form factor.
If you cant realize that, you are in denial.
The Apple fanboys
Always the sign that a high quality discussion is about to ensue!
But its not just icloud, when your little ipad can produce usefull data visualizations with large sets as fast as I can on my PC with Excel and PowerPivot, give me a call...
Here is why you will continue to be mystified and evidently angered by Apple's continued steamrolling of the traditional tech market - the use case you outlined affects maybe 2% of the people on the planet.
The iPad is a PC replacment only for those who only consume and occasionally email. For teh rest of us, it is an accessory.
A gross oversimplification of the iPad and iOS by a typical tech snob. My father does far more than web, email or "consumption only" with his iPad. For him, it is his sole computer and more than what he needs.
saying that the ipad replaces a PC is like saying that the neck tie replaces the button up shirt...it does not replace it -- it complements it.
The iPad doesn't replace the PC - that much is obvious.
What the iPad does is fill a niche where before the PC was chosen not because it was the best fit, but because it was the only choice at the time. I have no doubt that for the fast majority of people on the planet, an iOS device will be their primary computing device. That may seem like a crazy claim given the nature of these forums, but remember it doesn't get much more "inside baseball" than hanging out and posting on a technology related forum! Those of us even reading MacWorld, let alone posting in these forums are an edge case of an edge case of an edge case! It's why iPad sales are continuing to accelerate, instead of level off or retreat. The iPad isn't necessarily aimed at us - although I use mine all the time as a supplemental piece of technology. But there are fare more for whom it is more than sufficient as a primary computing device - and that is what Apple is positioning themselves for with iCloud and the, at first blush, insane move of "demoting" the Mac to a peer.
Folks, tell me what is the difference between a "PC" (desktop/laptop) and a "Post-PC" device (aka smartphones/tablets etc) ?
The key difference between iOS and traditional PC's, or even OS's like Android, is experience.
iOS is an experience - an Appliance. Traditional "computer" terminology and concepts are eschewed (leading to ridicule and marginalization by techies). Instead, iOS devices are results oriented. Look at the way they are advertised: Apple "Here is how we can help you do X, Y and Z" - Everyone else "Your girlfriend will flip over the dual core processor"
Huh?
And people wonder why iPad and iPhone sales are accelerating? Seriously? Can people really be that dense?
The key difference between iOS and traditional PC's, or even OS's like Android, is experience.
iOS is an experience - an Appliance. Traditional "computer" terminology and concepts are eschewed (leading to ridicule and marginalization by techies). Instead, iOS devices are results oriented. Look at the way they are advertised: Apple "Here is how we can help you do X, Y and Z" - Everyone else "Your girlfriend will flip over the dual core processor"
Huh?
And people wonder why iPad and iPhone sales are accelerating? Seriously? Can people really be that dense?
So you are saying the difference is HOW is it being MARKETED, rather HOW is it different in concept.
That's not enough of a good argument.
Whats so ironic is, isnt Apple's Mac OSX and its entire computer line up a "personal" computer ? Aka a "PC" too?
We don't hook up to the mainframe computer to run our operating system or system resources now do we? I'm old enough to have first hand experience with these things by the way.
Only the Chrome OS, currently, is a true "Non-PC" as it utilizes the "cloud" as its OS/system resources of which without it, its just a fancy paper weight or a "dumb terminal" as we liked to call it back in the day.
So Apple, please, stop calling it the end of the "PC era when you yourself is still using a "PC". Speaking of which, if transitioning from the Mac OSX to the iOS platform is considered the "post" PC era, you are all wrong yet again. Why? Because the OS and its core functionality still resides within the device, it is still "personal".
When the essential functionality of an OS resides at another place, THEN can you claim that that particular item is a "non-PC".
When people say its a PC vs Mac world, they dont know what they are talking about.
Give you an analogy:
It's like comparing HDTV vs LCD. HDTV is a general category. LCD is a specific type of HDTV. Plasmas are also a specific type of HDTV.
PC is considered a general category. Mac is a specific type of PC. Windows is also a specific type of PC.
Why are people calling it a PC vs Mac when it really should be Windows vs Mac?
Why does Apple do this? Pure marketing.
It still baffles my mind whenever I hear those comparison phrases.
It's hilarious that Apple tries to differentiate itself away from the general category when it itself resides in one.
You are only partially correct. The term PC has for a long time been interpreted by many to mean a wintel box as opposed to a Mac. The Term was coined with the IBM PC (see link below). So when we long time Mac users refer to a PC we mean a wintel box not a personal computer that may also be a Mac. You'd have to ask Steve what he meant by PC in Post PC.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Personal_Computer
I had several of these as well as Apple equipment and worked in computers throughout this era so the distinction is very clear to me. I can see how those that grew up with the term PC could assume it literally meant any personal computer.
PCs will become more like tablets (gaining simplification and ease of use), tablets will become more like PC (gaining more features), but HP wasn't very good at either in the grand scheme of things.
iOS is succeeding because it's nothing like a traditional PC OS
Microsoft has already made it clear there shouldn't be much difference between a tablet and a PC, and will hopefully success with Windows 8 as long as they avoid just strapping on a touch layer onto a desktop OS.
Well, if a Windows tablet will be "full windows" how can it be anything other than Windows with a touch layer "strapped on"?
The two concepts are at odds with each other. Apple is successful with iOS because they were willing to throw out the traditional computing paradigms and break new ground.
Apple will have little to fear from Microsoft as long as they stick to this bone-headed notion that all they need is Windows on a tablet to succeed. It hasn't worked for the last 10 years, and it really isn't going to work for the next 10 years now that there are products like the iPad to show the way.
That's why HP's total fumbling of WebOS is so disappointing. They were the only ones really positioning themselves to compete on the same playing field with Apple. Now it will be interesting to see if anyone will be able to really step up or not. I'm not holding my breath
You are talking about how the two are being marketed, not the real difference between the two categories.
How they are being marketed is also describing the difference between the two categories. That you keep missing the obvious isn't a problem of the market, iOS or PC's - it's purely your inability to perceive the real difference isn't technology but how that technology is presented and made (or not made) accessible.
That's key for how my Dad views the iPad. Not as a computer - he doesn't want a computer! Instead, it's that thing that let's him look up information, communicate with friends and family, etc. It's relevant to him for what it does, not because of what it is.
It's appealing to him because it's NOT a computer. It's a device that works in a intuitive and intimate way. Case in point - you probably think using a mouse is no big deal. He's 73 - once I finally got him used to a mouse and then handed him a notebook with a touchpad, I had to start all over again. Not so with the iPad. He sees it, he can touch it and manipulate it directly. No abstraction. It's immediately intuitive and very intimate.
If your first reaction is "that's lame" or "he's stupid" - bingo. Your the problem, not the market. There are far more of my father out there than you and that's the difference and why iOS will own the market while PC's decline.
HP didn't just decide to hop out of PC's as well on a whim.... they saw the obvious handwriting on the wall. The traditional PC market is starting a downward spiral - heck, Acer has already learned the hard way that the low end of the market has a new king in town...
iPads will eventually supersede laptops for 90% of people and when they need big iron, they will use the cloud.
Rarely has ANYONE said PCs go away, but their portion of market, mindshare, and innovation will diminish over time.
If MS insists on pushing the desktop onto the tablet, like the last 15 years, they will continue to be marginalized in these new markets. iPod, iPhones all over again.
Their advantage is that they are taking their time to do whatever they will do right (Android, Chrome, Blackberry, and WebOS are not). Their danger is that they are afraid of being their own strongest disruptive competitor dooming themselves to rehashing their early failed tablets.
Give Apple credit it's new products have always been a threat to their existing products and businesses, but this is what you got to do..
So MS needs to build the Post-PC products and Services that kills their PCs and then they will own the new market. Do they have the ideas more importantly the guts?
iOS is succeeding because it's nothing like a traditional PC OS
Well, if a Windows tablet will be "full windows" how can it be anything other than Windows with a touch layer "strapped on"?
The two concepts are at odds with each other. Apple is successful with iOS because they were willing to throw out the traditional computing paradigms and break new ground.
So your definition of a "PC" is in how "powerful" or versatile the OS is. Form factor does not matter to you, no?
Any device, regardless of its form factor, with a less "powerful" OS will be deemed a "Post-PC".
Kind of like how a netbook isnt a "full" laptop?
So does that mean the iOS devices are kind of like the netbook of laptops? Since they are less "powerful" than a "full" OS like the Mac OSX.
But, since you or someone else stated that since iOS is 80% OSX, would'nt all the iOS devices also be a "PC" by the majority rule?
How they are being marketed is also describing the difference between the two categories. That you keep missing the obvious isn't a problem of the market, iOS or PC's - it's purely your inability to perceive the real difference isn't technology but how that technology is presented and made (or not made) accessible.
That's key for how my Dad views the iPad. Not as a computer - he doesn't want a computer! Instead, it's that thing that let's him look up information, communicate with friends and family, etc. It's relevant to him for what it does, not because of what it is.
It's appealing to him because it's NOT a computer. It's a device that works in a intuitive and intimate way. Case in point - you probably think using a mouse is no big deal. He's 73 - once I finally got him used to a mouse and then handed him a notebook with a touchpad, I had to start all over again. Not so with the iPad. He sees it, he can touch it and manipulate it directly. No abstraction. It's immediately intuitive and very intimate.
If your first reaction is "that's lame" or "he's stupid" - bingo. Your the problem, not the market. There are far more of my father out there than you and that's the difference and why iOS will own the market while PC's decline.
HP didn't just decide to hop out of PC's as well on a whim.... they saw the obvious handwriting on the wall. The traditional PC market is starting a downward spiral - heck, Acer has already learned the hard way that the low end of the market has a new king in town...
All it is, is a device that has all the excess fat cut out while keeping the essentials. That is the only difference. It is still a "PC", in my opinion, according to the broad generalized definition of the word, regardless of marketing folks like to say otherwise.
Hey, I got a new term for it: mini-PC.
IOS is a walled garden and they never last, look at Prodigy, AOL, Friendster, and lately RIM, all walled gardens and all collapsed and collapsing...
The two aren't related in the least but dream your little dream of denial all you want. It still won't matter
Oops, time warp 101. Laps won't replace desktops cost/ performanc willnadvance for both, ....
iPads will eventually supersede laptops for 90% of people and when they need big iron, they will use the cloud.
Rarely has ANYONE said PCs go away, but their portion of market, mindshare, and innovation will diminish over time.
If MS insists on pushing the desktop onto the tablet, like the last 15 years, they will continue to be marginalized in these new markets. iPod, iPhones all over again.
Their advantage is that they are taking their time to do whatever they will do right (Android, Chrome, Blackberry, and WebOS are not). Their danger is that they are afraid of being their own strongest disruptive competitor dooming themselves to rehashing their early failed tablets.
Give Apple credit it's new products have always been a threat to their existing products and businesses, but this is what you got to do..
So MS needs to build the Post-PC products and Services that kills their PCs and then they will own the new market. Do they have the ideas more importantly the guts?
Ah, you have hit the nail on the head in the last paragraph. History is littered with companies that could not compete with their own successful products and died. In fact it seems to be the norm not the exception. Apple, as you say, succeeds by having no fear of their new innovations making long time successful products obsolete.
All it is, is a device that has all the excess fat cut out while keeping the essentials.
iOS is a total re-imaginging of the interface. While there are core technologies and API's that are shared between Mac OSX and iOS, the user interface elements and overall design of the system is unique to iOS. Insinuating that it's about "just cutting excess fat while keeping the essentials" just demonstrates that you really are completely clueless as to why iOS is taking off and Windows tablets are still going nowhere.
Yes, there are areas of overlap - but iOS verses what Microsoft has stated for Windows 8 tablet or whatever they are going to name it and what Google has delivered for Android are two entirely different things!
That is the only difference. It is still a "PC", in my opinion, according to the broad generalized definition of the word, regardless of marketing folks like to say otherwise.
Your still hung up on technology! Whether it's a PC or not is irrelevant! And really, whether it runs Windows, Mac OS, iOS, or Plan 9 is irrelevant. The iPad and iPhone are about the experience.
The computer for the rest of us.
It's not just a cheesy phrase (and nor is it "just marketing"). If it does work without people having to think of it as a computer - that's sizzle! My father couldn't care less that the iPad runs iOS written by Apple. What he cares about is he can pick it up and the thing immediately makes sense. It does meaningful work without forcing him to adapt to the technology. He doesn't have to learn mice, windows, file systems or any other such gobbledygook. He can put it down, pick it up and pick up right from where he left off. All the information and "files" he wants are always available, at his fingertips, where he expects them. There are no surprises. It's very predictable.
It's not a science project or tech for the sake of tech.
So you can argue about PC, Post PC, real computer, consumption device, media tablet, marketing - whatever inside baseball circle jerk floats your boat. Guess what he doesn't care! The iPad is here, he has it, it does all he wants without getting in the way and for that he loves it.
And he is not alone, nor is he in the minority. We are.
So there. I don't know how else I can explain it. If you still don't get it it, oh well - I tried. Protest all you want - it's irrelevant. The market is speaking and it's just getting started. With iCloud, Apple is getting ready to tie a bow on the the true meaning of hassle and "PC-free" computing. This is just the warm up...
All it is, is a device that has all the excess fat cut out while keeping the essentials. That is the only difference. It is still a "PC", in my opinion, according to the broad generalized definition of the word, regardless of marketing folks like to say otherwise.
Hey, I got a new term for it: mini-PC.
I still think you are missing the point that for three decades the term PC had a specific meaning that transcends the literal words. A 'PC' was (and always be) a Wintel box, pure and simple while Apple made Apple ][s, Apple ///s, Lisa and Macs. It is a fact the term PC was a marketing phrase by IBM and then picked up by clone makers such as Compaq when Billy Boy stabbed IBM in the back. So in a way you have it backwards when you accuse Apple of using marketing to manipulate the term PC.
P.s. Google 'origin of the term PC' then perhaps you will grasp the fact that sometimes your opinion can just be
plain wrong.
So your definition of a "PC" is in how "powerful" or versatile the OS is. Form factor does not matter to you, no?
No, my definition of PC is in the traditional sense of what "PC" has meant for the last several decades. Expandable hardware with general purpose operating systems that try to be solutions for just about any problem, that are open ended and expandable depending on how the operator wants to use them.
I'm not saying that's bad - I like traditional PC's (Windows or Mac) mind you. It's just what they are.
"Any device, regardless of its form factor, with a less "powerful" OS will be deemed a "Post-PC".
Kind of like how a netbook isnt a "full" laptop? "
Power is an illusion. To most techies - such as yourself - power is something to be benchmarked and measured. To my father, power is the ability to do work by having the technology conform to him, not the other way around. For that reason, a traditional PC is totally unappealing to him for all the reasons that I first was attracted to them!
As for netbooks, I don't deem them "full" laptop's because they are a compromised experience. All is sacrificed for price - performance, build quality, resources - lopped off in haphazard and uncoordinated ways that make the overall experience of using one absolutely painful. And if upgraded to be useable, they are often more expensive than non-netbook alternatives. It's no surprise to me netbook sales have tanked - they suck!
So does that mean the iOS devices are kind of like the netbook of laptops? Since they are less "powerful" than a "full" OS like the Mac OSX.
You ever heard of the phrase "less is more"? Meditate on that one for a while and you might understand more clearly why your question is totally irrelevant in the context of this discussion.
But, since you or someone else stated that since iOS is 80% OSX, would'nt all the iOS devices also be a "PC" by the majority rule?
Nope - since technology is not the critical defining factor. You need to get out of your narrow range of thinking and expand your horizons. Get out of the box - literally
Technology keeps moving, and to the dismay of those who still follow microsoft, Apple is the leading of that new technology, Apple also has the money to keep investing in advancing it really quick.
PC will not die, nobody is saying that, but its use as a mainstream will be replaced by tablets, it will take maybe 5 years, but it is a trend!
The Mac air is an example of what I am saying, it is moving closer to what a tablet is without sacrificing much of what a PC has to offer at least at the consumer level, although I have to say that most of my tasks in my business can be done using an Air.
PCs still will have its use, they will never die, but saying that, PCs and tablets will be moving closer and closer as technology evolves..
...and bad news for the windows people... windows will become a second fiddler to mac operating systems as widespread usage, the gap is closing really fast...unless Microsoft will comeback with a miracle...
George
Creating and destroying the personal computer in one lifetime.
Not destroying. Creating the PC, then creating the PC's successor.
One could argue that if they stick to their guns Microsoft will destroy the PC as we know it
That's up there with Special Relativity, electricity, and penicillin.
Indeed.
iOS is a total re-imaginging of the interface. While there are core technologies and API's that are shared between Mac OSX and iOS, the user interface elements and overall design of the system is unique to iOS. Insinuating that it's about "just cutting excess fat while keeping the essentials" just demonstrates that you really are completely clueless as to why iOS is taking off and Windows tablets are still going nowhere.
Yes, there are areas of overlap - but iOS verses what Microsoft has stated for Windows 8 tablet or whatever they are going to name it and what Google has delivered for Android are two entirely different things!
Your still hung up on technology! Whether it's a PC or not is irrelevant! And really, whether it runs Windows, Mac OS, iOS, or Plan 9 is irrelevant. The iPad and iPhone are about the experience.
The computer for the rest of us.
It's not just a cheesy phrase (and nor is it "just marketing"). If it does work without people having to think of it as a computer - that's sizzle! My father couldn't care less that the iPad runs iOS written by Apple. What he cares about is he can pick it up and the thing immediately makes sense. It does meaningful work without forcing him to adapt to the technology. He doesn't have to learn mice, windows, file systems or any other such gobbledygook. He can put it down, pick it up and pick up right from where he left off. All the information and "files" he wants are always available, at his fingertips, where he expects them. There are no surprises. It's very predictable.
It's not a science project or tech for the sake of tech.
So you can argue about PC, Post PC, real computer, consumption device, media tablet, marketing - whatever inside baseball circle jerk floats your boat. Guess what he doesn't care! The iPad is here, he has it, it does all he wants without getting in the way and for that he loves it.
And he is not alone, nor is he in the minority. We are.
So there. I don't know how else I can explain it. If you still don't get it it, oh well - I tried. Protest all you want - it's irrelevant. The market is speaking and it's just getting started. With iCloud, Apple is getting ready to tie a bow on the the true meaning of hassle and "PC-free" computing. This is just the warm up...
Seems to me that your a very different consumer than I am.
Your the type that would gobble up information thrown out by marketers, chew it and process it.
I'm the type that looks at specs, then marketing information and be skeptical throughout the entire process (whether it is for iOS, Mac, windows, Android or any other devices).
I tend to not weight the marketing speak by others as heavily as the information that I gather myself.
I work closely with marketers in my field and I know first hand what kind of fluff they like to put in to sell the product. As long as its not illegal, they will incorporate it into their plans.
Also, why are you bringing your father into this? I want YOUR opinions, not his.