Lion doesn't read mp3 cds?

Posted:
in macOS edited January 2014
Hi.



So I got some cds laying around here which I used a couple of years ago to back up some of my music. I was backing them up to an external HD when I was on Snow Leopard. I had no problems at all, I would just pop the cds into the drive and copy paste the folders with all the files to my external HD.



But on Lion I can't do that. When I try to copy I get a message saying "The items on the Clipboard can't be pasted to this location. One or more of the items may have been deleted or are no longer available." and I only get an OK button. When I go to the CD icon on the desktop, I double click it and a window pops up where I can see the folders, but there are no files inside any of the folders. Using Command+I shows that the folders are 0 bytes...



This happens on my 2008 20" iMac and on my 2010 15" MacBook Pro. I then decided to pop the cds on the drive of my father's Windows 7 Compaq and the files appear and I can even listen to the songs too.



Anyone has any clues on this issue? Thank you for any help you can provide...

Comments

  • Reply 1 of 19
    Burned CDs and DVDs start a process called osmosis from the minute they were burned. It gradually renders all data unreadable. You don't notice that in the first few years because the damage is still slight and correction algorythms in the reader software make up for the lost data. The tipping point generally is between 5 and 10 years after burning: there comes a moment when the remaining data is not enough anymore to be read.

    Your CDs could be beyond that tipping point.
  • Reply 2 of 19
    Well unfortunately I don't think that's the case, because as I said I can view the files on my father's Windows 7 Compaq and I was even able to listen to some of the songs there (I didn't try them all obviously).



    Besides I didn't come off Snow Leopard that long, the last time I used those cds was about a couple of months ago and there was no problem with them back then...
  • Reply 3 of 19
    tallest skiltallest skil Posts: 43,399member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by FitzGerald View Post


    Well unfortunately I don't think that's the case



    Of course it isn't the case; he's making up crap to spread FUD.



    What happens when you try to rip the discs into iTunes?
  • Reply 4 of 19
    Nothing happens. iTunes doesn't recognize the Cd (I believe that's because it's full of mp3 unlike a regular music cd). And since it doesn't recognize, I don't get the "Import CD" button.



    When I try to add the songs manually (via File > Add to Library...) nothing happens either :S
  • Reply 5 of 19
    I just did some extra testing.

    Regular audio CDs work ok (both Original and copied).

    I also tested with a DVD I had which is full of mp3 files and it works too.

    Only CDs with mp3 don't seem to work.



    Again this happens on both my Macs...



    EDIT: IT doesn't seem to happen with all the CD either...this is weird. But the ones that don't work, work fine on Windows 7 and worked fine on Snow Leopard :S
  • Reply 6 of 19
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by FitzGerald View Post


    Well unfortunately I don't think that's the case, because as I said I can view the files on my father's Windows 7 Compaq and I was even able to listen to some of the songs there (I didn't try them all obviously).



    Your father's Windows 7 Compaq may have music player software with correction algorhythms that are not as critical as those in Lion.

    In fact that's what I would expect from Windows.



    Quote:

    Besides I didn't come off Snow Leopard that long, the last time I used those cds was about a couple of months ago and there was no problem with them back then...



    The unreadability tipping point was reached sometime between then and now. It only takes a split second.



    Not all CDs are the same. Even if they were burned at the same time one will degrade faster than the next. After a few years burned CDs (and DVDs) simply become unreliable: one will still work while the next won't. As you experienced.



    BTW, ignore Tallest Skil. He's got issues with prejudices, reality, and manners.

    Not all hope is lost however, because he did learn the new word 'FUD' from me.

    His next goal is to learn to use it appropriately..., but maybe that's expecting too much.
  • Reply 7 of 19
    bbwibbwi Posts: 812member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by FitzGerald View Post


    I just did some extra testing.

    Regular audio CDs work ok (both Original and copied).

    I also tested with a DVD I had which is full of mp3 files and it works too.

    Only CDs with mp3 don't seem to work.



    Again this happens on both my Macs...



    EDIT: IT doesn't seem to happen with all the CD either...this is weird. But the ones that don't work, work fine on Windows 7 and worked fine on Snow Leopard :S



    Maybe its a bug. Report it.



    Then use your Win 7 box to copy the music to your Mac
  • Reply 8 of 19
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by FitzGerald View Post


    I just did some extra testing.

    Regular audio CDs work ok (both Original and copied).



    There are two kinds of CDs:

    the original, pressed ones that you buy including content retain their full data integrity for decades.

    The burned ones retain their full data integrity for 5 years max. After that all bets are off.

    Some may still work for a while, others won't. Bottom line: they are totally unreliable if older than 5 years.



    This why I copy and burn new CDs and DVDs from burned CDs and DVDs before they are 3 years old, and trash the old ones.

    For that m.o. it is advisable to mark your burned CDs and DVDs with their burning date, so that you can see when they need replacing.



    Burned CDs and DVDs are NOT suitable for long-term data storage, but for short to medium storage at best.



    Quote:

    I also tested with a DVD I had which is full of mp3 files and it works too.



    Until it reaches its osmosis-induced tipping point and doesn't anymore.



    Quote:

    Only CDs with mp3 don't seem to work.



    I'll bet those are all burned CDs.
  • Reply 9 of 19
    Wow... Parttimer... just wow.





    I'm gonna venture a guess here.

    Were the mp3-CD's burned on a Windows computer?

    I'm guessing they were... and the sessions were not closed out "properly"... so the discs don't meet the CD "spec"...



    Most windows software is aware of this "feature" of windows CD-burning and can work with it.

    OSX has never supported this "feature" (since it's not part of the "spec") and therefore can't read it.









    really, Parttimer?... really ?!?!
  • Reply 10 of 19
    Parttimer right on the first post I thought you were trolling me, but stupid me actually kinda took the bait. You must like chemistry a lot to go on and mention osmosis as a reason for my problem. Pity CDs aren't made from water yet...



    KingsOfSomewhereHot, yes they were burned on a Windows machine but I can't remember how I left those sessions. But it's still odd though, when I had Snow Leopard I could see the files on them, and I did copy the contents of a couple of those CDs to the external HD back then.



    I just grabbed some of the CDs that I know that worked on Snow Leopard and tried them here and I had the same result, I can view folders, but no files. Maybe they changed the way OSX handles sessions?
  • Reply 11 of 19
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by FitzGerald View Post


    Maybe they changed the way OSX handles sessions?



    I missed that part about them working on earlier versions of OSX ... But I still think that's a more likely explanation than osmosis! (it's hard to even type that without laughing out loud!)
  • Reply 12 of 19
    mr. memr. me Posts: 3,221member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post


    I missed that part about them working on earlier versions of OSX ... But I still think that's a more likely explanation than osmosis! (it's hard to even type that without laughing out loud!)



    I cannot vouch for Parttimer's use of the term osmosis, but his explanation is largely correct. Commercial discs use a thin aluminum film into which the content is pressed as microscopic pits. The pits alter the reflection angle of the reading laser. Home burned CDs and DVDs use a completely different method to store content. Instead of a thin film of aluminum, these discs have a thin film of optically-sensitive material. The laser in the write head of the burner changes the phase of the material, creating little phase change spots that correspond to each bit of content. Unlike the aluminum film of commercial discs, there is no mechanical change to the medium. However, the laser of the reader has different reflectances for the phase change spots than for the spots without the phase change.



    Parttimer may be overly generous in his assessment of the durability of commercial CDs. The aluminum film is fairly durable, but the plastic carrier is plastic. Plastic deteriorates over time. That is the nature of the beast. I would hope that a commercial CD lasts twenty years, but I am taking no bets.



    Home burned discs, however, are a whole different game. Blank discs vary from model line to model line. Some burning heads use higher powered lasers which will result in greater phase change in the sensitive film. Some read heads on the reader/player are more sensitive than others. But the part that you cannot escape is that the data are recorded by light and can therefore be destroyed by light. My personal experience with CDs is that they are actually fairly durable. DVDs are a whole 'nother ball game. The phase change spots are substantially smaller and substantially less durable with DVDs than with CDs.



    Home burned CDs should receive minimal exposure to light and DVDs, none at all. My experience with DVDs told me that the notion of archiving my data on Blu-ray was a pipe dream. Afterall, Blu-ray phase change spots are even smaller and less durable than DVD phase change spots.



    Call it osmosis, call it banana. The bottom line is that data archiving on optical media is a short-term and unreliable proposition.
  • Reply 13 of 19
    nvidia2008nvidia2008 Posts: 9,262member
    I think your best bet is to use a USB stick to transfer the files from the CD from your Windows computer to the Mac. It could be the drive firmware, Lion, or the Mac not "liking" the burnt CD for whatever reason. Not much point wondering what went wrong.
  • Reply 14 of 19
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Mr. Me View Post


    I cannot vouch for Parttimer's use of the term osmosis, but his explanation is largely correct. Commercial discs use a thin aluminum film into which the content is pressed as microscopic pits. The pits alter the reflection angle of the reading laser. Home burned CDs and DVDs use a completely different method to store content. Instead of a thin film of aluminum, these discs have a thin film of optically-sensitive material. The laser in the write head of the burner changes the phase of the material, creating little phase change spots that correspond to each bit of content. Unlike the aluminum film of commercial discs, there is no mechanical change to the medium. However, the laser of the reader has different reflectances for the phase change spots than for the spots without the phase change.



    Parttimer may be overly generous in his assessment of the durability of commercial CDs. The aluminum film is fairly durable, but the plastic carrier is plastic. Plastic deteriorates over time. That is the nature of the beast. I would hope that a commercial CD lasts twenty years, but I am taking no bets.



    Home burned discs, however, are a whole different game. Blank discs vary from model line to model line. Some burning heads use higher powered lasers which will result in greater phase change in the sensitive film. Some read heads on the reader/player are more sensitive than others. But the part that you cannot escape is that the data are recorded by light and can therefore be destroyed by light. My personal experience with CDs is that they are actually fairly durable. DVDs are a whole 'nother ball game. The phase change spots are substantially smaller and substantially less durable with DVDs than with CDs.



    Home burned CDs should receive minimal exposure to light and DVDs, none at all. My experience with DVDs told me that the notion of archiving my data on Blu-ray was a pipe dream. Afterall, Blu-ray phase change spots are even smaller and less durable than DVD phase change spots.



    Call it osmosis, call it banana. The bottom line is that data archiving on optical media is a short-term and unreliable proposition.



    Cheers Mr!



    And you're welcome, Fitzgerald.
  • Reply 15 of 19
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by FitzGerald View Post


    You must like chemistry a lot to go on and mention osmosis as a reason for my problem. Pity CDs aren't made from water yet...



    You seem to have a bit of a misconception there, Fitz...:



    FYI:

    osmosis does not require water per sé. Osmosis is the chemical interaction between two different elements. Good ol' red rust is also osmosis: the interaction between oxygen and iron. As are green copper, blackening silver, and whitening aluminium. Etc. etc.

    In the case of the burned CDs and DVDs it is the chemical interaction between the aluminium and the plastic (probably 100% carbon). You can actually see the burned dips shallowing over time in electron-microscopical sequential imagery. Until they disappear completely.

    If enough of them have disappeared the fault correction algorithms in the reader/player software can't make heads or tails of it anymore and give up, and – BINGO! – your disk is declared unreadable.



    Ironically it doesn't require the data content of files to go corrupt to disappear. Just sufficiently corrupted file headers are enough to make the entire files disappear. That's why you have empty folders. The headers are corrupt. Nothing's changed since the dawn of time, errmm... computing. The headers are always the first to go. A lot of the content data will still be there. It's just invisible. But you will have to jump through some data recovery hoops if you want to get it back. And what you will be able to recover will be very incomplete. Probably to the point of uselessness. It's also complicated, expensive, and extremely time consuming. Rarely worth anyone's while. Unless they're an acronym where money is no object. Just borrow and tax another trillion.



    If you listen carefully, through headphones, to some old tracks that you know very well, on a CD that was burned years ago you will hear crackles, pops, dips, blips, and hiccups that you could swear weren't there before. Damn right they weren't! You are not mistaken. Those are literally the missing bits! That CD is fading fast ! The tipping point is near! Copy its contents while you still can, missing bits and all. That's the price for waiting too long. Shit happens.
  • Reply 16 of 19
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Parttimer View Post


    ...Osmosis is the chemical interaction between two different elements...



    um... no. You're not even close.



    Osmosis is the use of a semi-permeable membrane to allow certain solvents (depending on what's used as a "membrane") to pass through, while not allowing other molecules through. Solutions of different concentrations, separated by the membrane, will allow the solvent to pass through in an effort to try to equalize the concentrations...



    "Good ol' red rust" is an example of oxidation, not osmosis... two VERY different things.
  • Reply 17 of 19
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post


    "Good ol' red rust" is an example of oxidation, not osmosis... two VERY different things.



    Oxidation is a subgroup of osmosis processes. All oxidation is osmosis, while not all osmosis is oxydation. Just like every cow is a mammal, but not every mammal is a cow. Tough concept, I know. But there you have it.



    In CDs and DVDs the outer layers of aluminium molecules of the foil get riddled with a gazillion holes by the laser that's burning them, remember? Tada! There's your membrane!
  • Reply 18 of 19
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Parttimer View Post


    Oxidation is a subgroup of osmosis processes.



    keep trying.
  • Reply 19 of 19
    mr. hmr. h Posts: 4,820member
    It's a shame Parttimer doesn't know what the hell he's talking about when it comes to osmosis, because it casts doubt over his credibility and makes people less likely to pay attention to the meat of his message, which is entirely true. Home-burned optical disks do not last very long!



    If you want more evidence than that little PC World article, I'm sure Google and Wikipedia between them should satisfy you.
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