If the players go on strike, many fans will be back. You won't have as many people watching day to day, I don't think, but Fenway Park (being an incredibly small ballpark) will still be sold out every game and people will still root for the Red Sox to win the World Series like every year.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Fran, Fenway is one of my favorite places to be on earth. I hate the thought of never going back. But if the players do this, I won't be back.
That's the thing, though. WHY do people keep going back?!?
No one is holding a gun to their heads. I really wish Fenway Park would turn into a ghost town next season. Nothing will ever change unless the fans finally make a bold move.
And I don't even mean "change" in the sense of "we're going to turn all this around!". I simply mean, wouldn't it be nice to stick it to them for once? Not show up? Not watch on TV?
What would truly happen, if 1/3rd into the season, the nation's ballparks are averaging about 300 spectators per game? Logistically, financially, etc. would baseball have to respond? Could stadiums (and the sport) afford to man, power, provide food, etc. for games when hardly anyone is showing up?
What would happen to baseball if nobody is there to watch it?
I don't know...I'm asking. But I'd LOVE to find out.
This is one of those things where people just go "yeah, but it can't because people will go and...". That's stock, defeatist "just because" thinking.
I say DON'T go. Watch on TV, if you must, but don't give the jackballs the pleasure of showing up, cheering, asking for autographs, etc.
Any foul balls or home runs hit into the stands, throw it back.
I come from the region of the country that cares about baseball the most. Here in New England, baseball is still the #1 sport, despite the fact that the Red Sox NEVER win the World Series and despite the fact that the Patriots are WORLD CHAMPIONS!
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hear, hear, but i have to say, it's become increasingly trendy to bash the Sox and praise the Patriots, of late, particularly on the local radio. Personally, i don't care much for football, and when i do, i root for the Redskins. But that's neither here nor there.
The thing that sort of bugs me right now is the people who say they love baseball, but are going to turn their backs on it after the strike. The thing that bothers me about it is that this kind of crap is part of baseball, for better or for worse. To say that you like baseball except for BS like this is ignoring a fundamental part of it. Baseball is corrupt. If it wasn't corrupt, it wouldn't be the same. i embrace baseball knowing full well that the money that i give them (however that may happen) is going to fuel an institution that is inequitable at best and downright illegal at worst. And that's fine with me. That's what it is, and when this crap is over, i'll come back. The strike is not the end of baseball, it's just a shifting of the 'sport' to a different venue.
Certainly, it's all right to turn your back on baseball, for whatever reason, but for the people saying that this is the last straw, i would have to ask them what they thought of baseball to begin with. Baseball, particularly for those of us who grew up in the 80's is inextricably linked to, among so many other things, corruption. Assorted strikes, lockouts, Pete Rose, pine tar, steroids, you name it, baseball fans know what those are, and strictly speaking, they're not part of the sport. But we all know they really are part of the sport, and so is this potential strike.
i'm not kidding myself; i know that all these people (players, owners, etc.) are jerks, but when this is over, i'll be back at Fenway, and while the temporarily pissed off fans are gone, i'll be stealing the good seats. if you think i'm wasting my money, so be it.
The thing that sort of bugs me right now is the people who say they love baseball, but are going to turn their backs on it after the strike. The thing that bothers me about it is that this kind of crap is part of baseball, for better or for worse. To say that you like baseball except for BS like this is ignoring a fundamental part of it. Baseball is corrupt. If it wasn't corrupt, it wouldn't be the same. i embrace baseball knowing full well that the money that i give them (however that may happen) is going to fuel an institution that is inequitable at best and downright illegal at worst. And that's fine with me. That's what it is, and when this crap is over, i'll come back. The strike is not the end of baseball, it's just a shifting of the 'sport' to a different venue.
Certainly, it's all right to turn your back on baseball, for whatever reason, but for the people saying that this is the last straw, i would have to ask them what they thought of baseball to begin with. Baseball, particularly for those of us who grew up in the 80's is inextricably linked to, among so many other things, corruption. Assorted strikes, lockouts, Pete Rose, pine tar, steroids, you name it, baseball fans know what those are, and strictly speaking, they're not part of the sport. But we all know they really are part of the sport, and so is this potential strike.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
This is nonsense. Whatever labor issues baseball had when I was growing up they weren't like this. The '94 strike caused the World Series to be cancelled!! Apart from time of war that never happened before. I did come back after the '94 strike but it was a long time before I did. I don't have to accept that having the World Series cancelled is now going to be a part of the game. When did that become the litmus test for being a true fan?
...When did that become the litmus test for being a true fan?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
It's not to say that anyone isn't a 'true fan', however one wants to define that, merely that it's a little disingenuous in this day and age to be a baseball fan and not expect to be disappointed with the behavior of many of the individuals involved in the game.
The same way we expect movie stars to marry, then divorce each other, and politicians to lie, we should assume that baseball players and owners are going to have the occasional tiff, and therefore embrace or shun the sport with that in mind.
Is it a depressing way to think? heck yeah, and it's a crying shame that kids look up to these people, but i've found it to be the best way to consider the whole situation.
Baseball is the most virtuous of sports. Unlike other American games, it doesn't require constant attention from the fan, leaving ample time for passing out and reading Bible Pamphlets at the game.
Well that's just lame, defeatist "stick it to me and I'll take it gladly" thinking.
We shouldn't accept the notion of Hollywood people acting the way they do, politicians lying and pro athletes doing the things they do, should we?
They all get away with it because enough people think the way you outlined. People show up at the box office, click their remotes to their shows, pull the lever for them at the voting booth, buy tickets to their games, etc.
Why? It doesn't have to be that way.
Nobody calls them on their shit or holds them responsible for idiotic, boorish and foul behavior, so of course they're going to be the way they are.
I wish everyone would set their sights a bit higher and not be so accepting of the L.C.D. and nonsense.
How can you enjoy baseball, thinking what you do and knowing what you know about things? Would seem to be, that knowledge/acceptance would zap the fun and passion out of it.
I hate that kind of thinking ("well, it's all gone to hell and everyone's doing it...I accept it and that's just the way things are. Play ball!")
Now that the Red Sox are well into their backward slide out of post season contention, I'm almost at the point of hoping for a strike, just so that it'll bring this season to a merciful end...
Aside from that, all I can say is...ARE U READY FOR SOME FOOTBALL? (I am.)
It's not to say that anyone isn't a 'true fan', however one wants to define that, merely that it's a little disingenuous in this day and age to be a baseball fan and not expect to be disappointed with the behavior of many of the individuals involved in the game.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Disingenuous? To expect that they'd at least respect their own profession enough to not cause the World Series to be cancelled? I've put up with a lot. I don't have these guys on some kind of pedestal. All I'm doing is drawing a line. There's nothing unreasonable about my position. I think I've set the bar extremely low. If MLB can't meet that standard, then they don't really want my patronage anyway.
What would truly happen, if 1/3rd into the season, the nation's ballparks are averaging about 300 spectators per game? Logistically, financially, etc. would baseball have to respond? Could stadiums (and the sport) afford to man, power, provide food, etc. for games when hardly anyone is showing up?
What would happen to baseball if nobody is there to watch it?
I don't know...I'm asking. But I'd LOVE to find out.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
extensive testing of this has gone on for years
the league's supposed reaction to this? contraction.
which sounds like "we'll take our ball and go home"
exhibit a: Montreal Expos
maybe not quite hundreds of fans, but less than 5000 on many an occassion. in a stadium left over from the 76 olympics that seats 60000+. and still isn't paid for. fans with mini-tv's are usually watching something other than the game.
when they had similarly poor turnouts in the same cavernous space for CFL football, they moved the team to an 'intimate' 12,000(?) seat outdoor stadium at McGill University (previously paid for by the University) that now seems packed and as a result generates SRO atmosphere to renew fans and team. likely a big $avings, too, but most of the professional football players in canada make blue collar wages... IIRC, almost nobody over 200k/yr.
if MLB strikes, what if there's a glut of steroids?
what strange celebrity-smacked-this souvenirs will feed eBay?
how will ARod get by on just $11 Million/yr in strike pay
stats fanatics jonesing for odd digits should prepare for alternative fixes of...
wait for it... might stump ya...
straight from the subcontinent and places between...
takes two or three days to complete
during breaks between periods the de rigeur beverage is tea
all uniforms are white wool (virgin -hah- turf for logo sponsorship deals)
bizzare pitch names like googlie
and real he-man athletes who catch the hard rubber ball barehanded
Right on Moogs! Go Leafs GO! (and get a clue) anyway, back to NASCAR...
Just kidding, back to baseboid.
There's an simple solution to all this, really:
And it sits with the owners.
NO other baseball league in the world pays what MLB pays. If MLB could collectively agree to limit salaries, what could players do? Look elsewhere? They're not going to get A-Rod money and endorsments from Japan and that's as close as they'll get.
Sure, the players union would rebel, but the owners could draft a constitution independently of the players where the owners themselves agree not to outbid each other. Players wouldn't like it, and it'd probably face a few legal tests of one form or another, but what could they really do? An agreement between owners themselves could be a thing quite apart from an agreement between players and owners.
The first few players who smack into an utter lack of a bidding war would send the message pretty clearly. The key is for the owners to agree (and bind themselves) to such a pact for an extended duration -- at least 15 years.
They could reset the pay scale if they wanted to. They control the infrastructure, and there isn't a league that could offer similar money.
<strong>Well that's just lame, defeatist "stick it to me and I'll take it gladly" thinking.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Agreed, but i *am* a Red Sox fan, after all
Seriously, though, i agree that it's a terrible outlook on things, but i honestly don't belive that things will ever changes. At least not these things. <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" /> Like everything else, it's a product, and i foolishly choose to continue buying it, and find that i enjoy the product more when i don't expect something of it that it probably will never be able to deliver. i'd probably be smarter if i ceased to consume the product, like so many here intend to do. but i like it too much, so i'm stuck.
i just wanted to suggest an alternate way of looking at the whole mess; one that i find makes a lot of sense, that's all.
Comments
<strong>Dormant?
Hmm, where's that damn bird-flipping smiley when I need it?!?
<strong>
If the players go on strike, many fans will be back. You won't have as many people watching day to day, I don't think, but Fenway Park (being an incredibly small ballpark) will still be sold out every game and people will still root for the Red Sox to win the World Series like every year.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Fran, Fenway is one of my favorite places to be on earth. I hate the thought of never going back. But if the players do this, I won't be back.
No one is holding a gun to their heads. I really wish Fenway Park would turn into a ghost town next season. Nothing will ever change unless the fans finally make a bold move.
And I don't even mean "change" in the sense of "we're going to turn all this around!". I simply mean, wouldn't it be nice to stick it to them for once? Not show up? Not watch on TV?
What would truly happen, if 1/3rd into the season, the nation's ballparks are averaging about 300 spectators per game? Logistically, financially, etc. would baseball have to respond? Could stadiums (and the sport) afford to man, power, provide food, etc. for games when hardly anyone is showing up?
What would happen to baseball if nobody is there to watch it?
I don't know...I'm asking. But I'd LOVE to find out.
This is one of those things where people just go "yeah, but it can't because people will go and...". That's stock, defeatist "just because" thinking.
I say DON'T go. Watch on TV, if you must, but don't give the jackballs the pleasure of showing up, cheering, asking for autographs, etc.
Any foul balls or home runs hit into the stands, throw it back.
<strong>
I come from the region of the country that cares about baseball the most. Here in New England, baseball is still the #1 sport, despite the fact that the Red Sox NEVER win the World Series and despite the fact that the Patriots are WORLD CHAMPIONS!
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hear, hear, but i have to say, it's become increasingly trendy to bash the Sox and praise the Patriots, of late, particularly on the local radio. Personally, i don't care much for football, and when i do, i root for the Redskins. But that's neither here nor there.
The thing that sort of bugs me right now is the people who say they love baseball, but are going to turn their backs on it after the strike. The thing that bothers me about it is that this kind of crap is part of baseball, for better or for worse. To say that you like baseball except for BS like this is ignoring a fundamental part of it. Baseball is corrupt. If it wasn't corrupt, it wouldn't be the same. i embrace baseball knowing full well that the money that i give them (however that may happen) is going to fuel an institution that is inequitable at best and downright illegal at worst. And that's fine with me. That's what it is, and when this crap is over, i'll come back. The strike is not the end of baseball, it's just a shifting of the 'sport' to a different venue.
Certainly, it's all right to turn your back on baseball, for whatever reason, but for the people saying that this is the last straw, i would have to ask them what they thought of baseball to begin with. Baseball, particularly for those of us who grew up in the 80's is inextricably linked to, among so many other things, corruption. Assorted strikes, lockouts, Pete Rose, pine tar, steroids, you name it, baseball fans know what those are, and strictly speaking, they're not part of the sport. But we all know they really are part of the sport, and so is this potential strike.
i'm not kidding myself; i know that all these people (players, owners, etc.) are jerks, but when this is over, i'll be back at Fenway, and while the temporarily pissed off fans are gone, i'll be stealing the good seats.
[ 08-20-2002: Message edited by: calamar1 ]</p>
<strong>
The thing that sort of bugs me right now is the people who say they love baseball, but are going to turn their backs on it after the strike. The thing that bothers me about it is that this kind of crap is part of baseball, for better or for worse. To say that you like baseball except for BS like this is ignoring a fundamental part of it. Baseball is corrupt. If it wasn't corrupt, it wouldn't be the same. i embrace baseball knowing full well that the money that i give them (however that may happen) is going to fuel an institution that is inequitable at best and downright illegal at worst. And that's fine with me. That's what it is, and when this crap is over, i'll come back. The strike is not the end of baseball, it's just a shifting of the 'sport' to a different venue.
Certainly, it's all right to turn your back on baseball, for whatever reason, but for the people saying that this is the last straw, i would have to ask them what they thought of baseball to begin with. Baseball, particularly for those of us who grew up in the 80's is inextricably linked to, among so many other things, corruption. Assorted strikes, lockouts, Pete Rose, pine tar, steroids, you name it, baseball fans know what those are, and strictly speaking, they're not part of the sport. But we all know they really are part of the sport, and so is this potential strike.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
This is nonsense. Whatever labor issues baseball had when I was growing up they weren't like this. The '94 strike caused the World Series to be cancelled!! Apart from time of war that never happened before. I did come back after the '94 strike but it was a long time before I did. I don't have to accept that having the World Series cancelled is now going to be a part of the game. When did that become the litmus test for being a true fan?
[ 08-21-2002: Message edited by: spaceman_spiff ]</p>
You're not going to believe this, but...
Hockey season is a little over a month away!!
Scates, feel free to flip me the bird. I deserve it.
<strong>
...When did that become the litmus test for being a true fan?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
It's not to say that anyone isn't a 'true fan', however one wants to define that, merely that it's a little disingenuous in this day and age to be a baseball fan and not expect to be disappointed with the behavior of many of the individuals involved in the game.
The same way we expect movie stars to marry, then divorce each other, and politicians to lie, we should assume that baseball players and owners are going to have the occasional tiff, and therefore embrace or shun the sport with that in mind.
Is it a depressing way to think? heck yeah, and it's a crying shame that kids look up to these people, but i've found it to be the best way to consider the whole situation.
*hugs*
We shouldn't accept the notion of Hollywood people acting the way they do, politicians lying and pro athletes doing the things they do, should we?
They all get away with it because enough people think the way you outlined. People show up at the box office, click their remotes to their shows, pull the lever for them at the voting booth, buy tickets to their games, etc.
Why? It doesn't have to be that way.
Nobody calls them on their shit or holds them responsible for idiotic, boorish and foul behavior, so of course they're going to be the way they are.
I wish everyone would set their sights a bit higher and not be so accepting of the L.C.D. and nonsense.
How can you enjoy baseball, thinking what you do and knowing what you know about things? Would seem to be, that knowledge/acceptance would zap the fun and passion out of it.
I hate that kind of thinking ("well, it's all gone to hell and everyone's doing it...I accept it and that's just the way things are. Play ball!")
<img src="confused.gif" border="0">
Aside from that, all I can say is...ARE U READY FOR SOME FOOTBALL? (I am.)
<strong>
It's not to say that anyone isn't a 'true fan', however one wants to define that, merely that it's a little disingenuous in this day and age to be a baseball fan and not expect to be disappointed with the behavior of many of the individuals involved in the game.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Disingenuous? To expect that they'd at least respect their own profession enough to not cause the World Series to be cancelled? I've put up with a lot. I don't have these guys on some kind of pedestal. All I'm doing is drawing a line. There's nothing unreasonable about my position. I think I've set the bar extremely low. If MLB can't meet that standard, then they don't really want my patronage anyway.
<strong>
What would truly happen, if 1/3rd into the season, the nation's ballparks are averaging about 300 spectators per game? Logistically, financially, etc. would baseball have to respond? Could stadiums (and the sport) afford to man, power, provide food, etc. for games when hardly anyone is showing up?
What would happen to baseball if nobody is there to watch it?
I don't know...I'm asking. But I'd LOVE to find out.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
extensive testing of this has gone on for years
the league's supposed reaction to this? contraction.
which sounds like "we'll take our ball and go home"
exhibit a: Montreal Expos
maybe not quite hundreds of fans, but less than 5000 on many an occassion. in a stadium left over from the 76 olympics that seats 60000+. and still isn't paid for. fans with mini-tv's are usually watching something other than the game.
when they had similarly poor turnouts in the same cavernous space for CFL football, they moved the team to an 'intimate' 12,000(?) seat outdoor stadium at McGill University (previously paid for by the University) that now seems packed and as a result generates SRO atmosphere to renew fans and team. likely a big $avings, too, but most of the professional football players in canada make blue collar wages... IIRC, almost nobody over 200k/yr.
if MLB strikes, what if there's a glut of steroids?
what strange celebrity-smacked-this souvenirs will feed eBay?
how will ARod get by on just $11 Million/yr in strike pay
stats fanatics jonesing for odd digits should prepare for alternative fixes of...
wait for it... might stump ya...
straight from the subcontinent and places between...
takes two or three days to complete
during breaks between periods the de rigeur beverage is tea
all uniforms are white wool (virgin -hah- turf for logo sponsorship deals)
bizzare pitch names like googlie
and real he-man athletes who catch the hard rubber ball barehanded
ain't it just CRICKET, baby
screw deep blue, let's televise Kasparov playing Speedhole D1.25
edit: spelling
[ 08-21-2002: Message edited by: curiousuburb ]</p>
Just kidding, back to baseboid.
There's an simple solution to all this, really:
And it sits with the owners.
NO other baseball league in the world pays what MLB pays. If MLB could collectively agree to limit salaries, what could players do? Look elsewhere? They're not going to get A-Rod money and endorsments from Japan and that's as close as they'll get.
Sure, the players union would rebel, but the owners could draft a constitution independently of the players where the owners themselves agree not to outbid each other. Players wouldn't like it, and it'd probably face a few legal tests of one form or another, but what could they really do? An agreement between owners themselves could be a thing quite apart from an agreement between players and owners.
The first few players who smack into an utter lack of a bidding war would send the message pretty clearly. The key is for the owners to agree (and bind themselves) to such a pact for an extended duration -- at least 15 years.
They could reset the pay scale if they wanted to. They control the infrastructure, and there isn't a league that could offer similar money.
[ 08-21-2002: Message edited by: Matsu ]</p>
<strong>Well that's just lame, defeatist "stick it to me and I'll take it gladly" thinking.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Agreed, but i *am* a Red Sox fan, after all
Seriously, though, i agree that it's a terrible outlook on things, but i honestly don't belive that things will ever changes. At least not these things. <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" /> Like everything else, it's a product, and i foolishly choose to continue buying it, and find that i enjoy the product more when i don't expect something of it that it probably will never be able to deliver. i'd probably be smarter if i ceased to consume the product, like so many here intend to do. but i like it too much, so i'm stuck.
i just wanted to suggest an alternate way of looking at the whole mess; one that i find makes a lot of sense, that's all.