Westerfield Guilty!
<a href="http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,60973,00.html"; target="_blank">Story</a>
Do you support the death penalty for him?
[ 08-21-2002: Message edited by: SDW2001 ]</p>
Do you support the death penalty for him?
[ 08-21-2002: Message edited by: SDW2001 ]</p>
Comments
Oh, and fry the asshole...
[ 08-21-2002: Message edited by: Artman @_@ ]</p>
<strong>
Do you support the death penalty for him?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Of course not
<strong>But the parents are just as guilty in living a lifestyle not too conducive for raising children. Sleeping with other sex partners and smoking pot?
]</strong><hr></blockquote>
In case this wasn´t meant as irony: What do having sex with another number of persons than one have to do with the killing of the girl?
Meanwhile, let all three of the fvck-ups rot. The parents are only 49% guilty....
[ 08-21-2002: Message edited by: Moogs ]</p>
Please.
As far as the "what does having sex with different people..." business, what are you thinking?
No, simply "having sex with others" in and of itself isn't automatically going to mean your kid gets snatched and killed.
But here's the thing (I said this a while back also): these people ARE indeed adults and can choose the life they want. Swinging, drugs, etc. But I do think - and won't be convinced otherwise - that they need to be a little more responsible and use their heads a bit.
If you're a swinging couple, you shouldn't be doing that with kids around. Send them off to friends or the grandparents for the weekend if you're going to be doing that. Or do it at a hotel, or at the very least another couple's house who don't have kids.
Kids get up all the time from sleep (to pee, get some water, sneak down to the kitchen for a cookie, etc.). What if Danielle or her brother would've ever woken up and walked in on a scene of 6, 8 or 10 people all going at it naked, and two of those people were her parents?
Do you not think, in some small way, that might be a little bit freaky for the kid? Wouldn't it raise several hundred questions? Wouldn't it stick with them for life? Wouldn't it cause them to perhaps form some early, odd notions about marriage, sex, fidelity, etc. that perhaps they're not ready to be forming yet?
The crux of this is that people were brought into the home who are strangers. Now forget the whole swinging/sex angle of it. If they all came over to simply play Yahtzee or watch Jay Leno, fact is they let people into their home who they really don't know.
That's just foolish and irresponsible, sex or not.
My parents never came home from a dinner or movie with people they didn't know to play cards or whatever.
If they did, I'd be like "WHO are these people?"
And here's the thing: since you don't KNOW these people (and Westerfield's apparent fondness for underage porn), their actions did - in a way - have consequences.
Sounds like this guy got all torqued up from drinking, dancing, flirting, etc. Maybe it stirred him up to the point that he saw an opportunity and took it, where he otherwise wouldn't have.
Swing, screw, wife-swap, etc. all you want. But don't carry on with that shit with children in the house. It's lame enough you're hooking up with strangers and exposing yourself to God-knows-what, but don't endanger your children or put THEM into the "line of fire".
The parent's lifestyle had tons to do with how things played out. Anybody who doesn't believe that and can make the connection a little bit is just goofy.
Danielle would probably be alive TODAY had choices not been made that night that were.
It's just foolish and irresponsible behavior, at best. At worst...well, you see what happened.
If you're going to be "adults" and engage in "adult pasttimes", fine...knock yourself out. But get half a fücking clue and THINK about things, other than just "getting it on".
You know that's going to hang over the van Dam's forever. That's going to eat at them, I'm sure. They have to realize that they let this man into their home, and they didn't really even know him.
In that aspect, their actions/lifestyle DID contribute in some small way. Not maliciously or purposely, of course, but it did. I'm sure they never expected something like this to happen, but you never do.
Watch the damn news: apparently kids, lately, are in danger enough from random strangers. Why help the situation by bringing them directly into your home?!?
There, I said it.
I don't see how these parents haven't been brought up and convicted on charges of reckless endangerment or worse.
You let random sexual pervert strangers into your home and you are surprised that your kids are abuse sexually or kidnapped to be sexually abused by one of the perverts?
What a joke.
[ 08-21-2002: Message edited by: groverat ]</p>
<strong>Anders, you say "of course not!" (with an eyeroll smiley) as if the notion is completely out-of-whack and you're the only one to notice it.
Please. </strong><hr></blockquote>
I consider death penalty on line with cutting off shoplifters hands and stoning women for having sex with persons they are not marrried with. Its part of the european convention on human rights that no person can be sentenced to death and if a country won´t accept it it can´t become member of EU. In a futile attempt to become member Turkey have just abandomed it. It is one of the larger cultural differences between US and Europe that this is accepted politically in US and not here (and this is NOT "we are better" euro high ass attitude. There is some parts of the US system I wish we had).
And no I hope not I am the only one to think death penalty is wrong
[quote]Originally posted by pscates:
<strong>As far as the "what does having sex with different people..." business, what are you thinking?
No, simply "having sex with others" in and of itself isn't automatically going to mean your kid gets snatched and killed.
But here's the thing (I said this a while back also): these people ARE indeed adults and can choose the life they want. Swinging, drugs, etc. But I do think - and won't be convinced otherwise - that they need to be a little more responsible and use their heads a bit.
If you're a swinging couple, you shouldn't be doing that with kids around. Send them off to friends or the grandparents for the weekend if you're going to be doing that. Or do it at a hotel, or at the very least another couple's house who don't have kids.
Kids get up all the time from sleep (to pee, get some water, sneak down to the kitchen for a cookie, etc.). What if Danielle or her brother would've ever woken up and walked in on a scene of 6, 8 or 10 people all going at it naked, and two of those people were her parents?
Do you not think, in some small way, that might be a little bit freaky for the kid? Wouldn't it raise several hundred questions? Wouldn't it stick with them for life? Wouldn't it cause them to perhaps form some early, odd notions about marriage, sex, fidelity, etc. that perhaps they're not ready to be forming yet?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
All this have nothing to do with death of the kid. It might seem unmoral for some people (I wouldn´t do it myself) but those arguments doesn´t have anything to do with the death of the kid so lets disregard them in this discussion.
[quote]Originally posted by pscates:
<strong>The crux of this is that people were brought into the home who are strangers. Now forget the whole swinging/sex angle of it. If they all came over to simply play Yahtzee or watch Jay Leno, fact is they let people into their home who they really don't know.
That's just foolish and irresponsible, sex or not.
My parents never came home from a dinner or movie with people they didn't know to play cards or whatever.
If they did, I'd be like "WHO are these people?"
[QUOTE]Originally posted by pscates:
[QB]And here's the thing: since you don't KNOW these people (and Westerfield's apparent fondness for underage porn), their actions did - in a way - have consequences.
Sounds like this guy got all torqued up from drinking, dancing, flirting, etc. Maybe it stirred him up to the point that he saw an opportunity and took it, where he otherwise wouldn't have.</strong><hr></blockquote>
As I read the article he was never invited into their house. He didn´t have sex with them. He danced with the woman in a bar. Thats all.
[quote]Originally posted by pscates:
<strong>
You know that's going to hang over the van Dam's forever. That's going to eat at them, I'm sure. They have to realize that they let this man into their home, and they didn't really even know him.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Again in the article it isn´t mentioned that he had been in their house and even if he had is there a connection between being a swinger and child molestor?
And yes this will hang over the parents because they have a lifestyle that isn´t the norm in our society and the defence tried to use it in a dirty tactics to get his client off the hook
I guess he left.
But carrying on at the bar beforehand (drinking, dancing, I'm sure flirting and thinking "hey, I might get some tonight if I play this right...").
I thought he came into the house with everyone and had some pizza and hung out a bit?
BTW, I don't bagging on the van Dam's (kinda feel sorry for them a little, just because of the dead daughter angle) just because it's the popular thing to do. But you have to be responsible. Just don't carry on that way with children in the house. Period.
As a responsible, thoughtful parent and adult, you live your life differently and put other things on hold when there are children present. You don't do things with them in the house that you might otherwise want to do if they're away at grandma's or whatever.
That way, the liklihood of things like this are decreased.
There IS a connection. Not saying swingers and all are "evil", but with that sexual openness/daring come the possibilities of more malicious slants/behaviors in that arena.
Some people can do it, see it for what it is and go on about their lives and you'd never know. On the flipside of that, you might have someone absolutely consumed with sex and deviant, out-of-the-norm thoughts.
Groverat said it pretty bluntly (and may have painted with a broad brush...the same one he'd yell at me about if I say something that opinionated
You just don't know. And until you do, doing this stuff with kids around (the van Dams or ANYONE) isn't smart. And it isn't necessarily safe. And it's simply not responsible.
[ 08-21-2002: Message edited by: pscates ]</p>
[QB]Because people who do that are sexually perverted.<hr></blockquote>
Oh come on. What perverted is there about having sex with more that one person? The couple even agreed on doing it.
Adultery is very normal. Why is it perveted if you do excatly the same but have the concent of your partner?
Meeting a group of strangers and having an orgy in your garage is a sign of sexual perversion. Have you ever met or seen people who do these things? In my region of the world those people are frightening weirdos.
I think it takes a certain mindset to go **** a stranger's wife while he's watching in their garage with a few other people getting after it, call me a prude.
Not that it's the mindset of a child-killing pedophile, but it certainly doesn't preclude it.
Not only are they letting what are essentially strangers in the house but they are leaving their children alone with those strangers. And what's the common interest with those strangers? Anonymous ****ing.
Somehow, it doesn't shock the hell out of me that this happened.
It's not like this is someone they met and got to know, they just drag seemingly random people home so long as they meet basic physical requirements ("Do you have a penis? Can it get erect?")
And it's not a neutral environment, you're bringing them home to a sexually charged environment, which will goad a pedophile on no doubt.
It's not their "fault", but they are total idiots who deserve pity for losing a daughter but a lot of the responsibility lies in the way they lived their lives around their daughter. It's pathetic.
p:
I have no problem at all with stereotyping people based on action, usually, just race or religious/cultural background.
As for pedophilic behavior, there is no question about the the legality or the morality of such acts.
<strong>What is "normal" and what is a "perversion"? I'm using a societal definition here.
Meeting a group of strangers and having an orgy in your garage is a sign of sexual perversion. Have you ever met or seen people who do these things? In my region of the world those people are frightening weirdos.
I think it takes a certain mindset to go **** a stranger's wife while he's watching in their garage with a few other people getting after it, call me a prude.
Not that it's the mindset of a child-killing pedophile, but it certainly doesn't preclude it.
Not only are they letting what are essentially strangers in the house but they are leaving their children alone with those strangers. And what's the common interest with those strangers? Anonymous ****ing.
Somehow, it doesn't shock the hell out of me that this happened.
It's not like this is someone they met and got to know, they just drag seemingly random people home so long as they meet basic physical requirements ("Do you have a penis? Can it get erect?")
And it's not a neutral environment, you're bringing them home to a sexually charged environment, which will goad a pedophile on no doubt.
It's not their "fault", but they are total idiots who deserve pity for losing a daughter but a lot of the responsibility lies in the way they lived their lives around their daughter. It's pathetic.
p:
I have no problem at all with stereotyping people based on action, usually, just race or religious/cultural background.
I don't know tha specifics... were they having orgies with strangers in the garage?
I think that if you have kids and you are into swinging, go do it at a hotel.
Its true that swingers can be a strange group of people... usually some deep psychology going on . . . at least the swingers I knew . . and they had two young girls . . . I don't know where they did their stuff . . . (swinging has never appealed to me at all) but and it was always just another girl addition kind of thing, but they seemed very normal people . . I could detect, however, a strange tension in the guy, an ex-marine who liked to be macho . . . it indicated issues.
I think that if you are raising a girl (I will be soon) then you really should be responcible for who you let in and who you get to know.
There are alot of creeps out there . . . I was almost abused by one as a young man . . . and before I could tell what was up he seemed like a nice guy. I found out soon enough and came back with friends to pound on him (I was 16) but he wouldn't let us in.
As for smoking pot, that's just silly, if the parents do it on their own, away from the child, so she doesn't know it and doesn't see her parents stoned (at least till she is old enough to discern) then I don't see any problem with it.
Was the killer a swinger or was he just a next door neighbor? There is also the arguement that some people could benefit from swinging and let off some steam before it leads to something stupid . . .
As a result, I don't think he should be killed.
I think he should be thrown away for life with no chance of parole.
<strong>When you start to judge other's people behavior as questionable behavior as immoral, you are inviting other people to judge your behavior as well.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Oh really?
I guess I'd better stop then!
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
I'm well aware of the Judeo-Christian idea of "judge not, lest ye be judged" but as a functioning member of a society I have to force myself to eschew that idea and look at things.
I dont base my statement that people who engage in orgies are sexually perverted and have a higher propensity towards other forms of sexual deviancy on any religious belief, but on a psychological basis.
[quote]<strong>And whilst you may have no problem with the government or people inspecting your private life, you have no right to force it upon others.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Outrage duly noted.
I am curious, though, as to what I am attempting to "force upon others".
We have parents who let their children <a href="http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/08/21/sunburn.charges.ap/index.html"; target="_blank">fry</a> in the sun than rather protect them from it. Leaving them in a car to <a href="http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/local/3868045.htm"; target="_blank">bake</a>...
Having them interact or been even near their "private" sexual activities is just as idiotic.