From my understanding, the OEMs asked for even further discounts to which Intel said, "Hell no!" I think that Intel wants the OEMs to move away from the race to the bottom for their own good (HP anyone?) and also to stave off any thoughts of moving to ARM since Microsoft is now porting Windows 8 to ARM.
ARM is really not the major threat that Intel faces. AMD is a far bigger concern at this point.
First of all, this reflects the basic fact that the Windows PC market isn't really receptive to this category. Dell's Adamo was a commercial failure and PC manufacturers are well aware of that.
....
Secondly, these PC manufacturers are probably wary of another TouchPad debacle.
Have Windows PC manufacturers painted themselves into a shitty, low-margin unsatisfying corner where their main competitor innovates, generates high customer satisfaction and walks away with the lion's share of the industry's profits?
Every poster should re-read this before commenting.
Have Windows PC manufacturers painted themselves into a shitty, low-margin unsatisfying corner where their main competitor innovates, generates high customer satisfaction and walks away with the lion's share of the industry's profits?
Wish there was a way to follow certain members. Appreciate your clarity, from This to profits.
ARM is really not the major threat that Intel faces. AMD is a far bigger concern at this point.
Yes and no. Many Windows users already expect a slow computer and don't use that many third party applications. If Microsoft ports over it's usual cadre of apps or makes using its Windows Live apps acceptable, then I could see people buying lower cost ARM netbooks because they simply don't know any better.
"Testing The Waters" is one of the major differences between Apple and other manufacturers. When Apple tests the waters they call it a hobby. In the case of iPhone and iPad Apple went all in with manufacturing, marketing and distribution. These other manufacturers are testing the waters hoping to get lucky without putting too much at stake. Apple knows how to make people want their products. Like Yogi said, '90% of this game is 100% mental'. That is the Apple advantage.
I challenge you to actually think about it for yourselves?
You realize absolutely nothing you followed that with supports your earlier statement that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefly7475
Ultrabooks are not a response to Apple.
In fact, the bit about "ripping off Apple's designs" would indicate exactly the opposite.
This "segment" didn't exist until Apple created it with the MacBook Air. After an iteration or two, it got popular, and now the PC market wants in on the action. How is that not a response to Apple?
[making a device that costs $1000, while not losing money on it] "This is the major reason why we do not believe that the ultrabook segment is really going to take off until next year."
What exactly will happen next year that will change the situation? Apple still will be able to beat everybody on costs due to their volume, not having to pay the Windows tax, and having more flexibility in being able to design the computer. And Intel will get a swift kick by Apple and/or the FTC if they try to sell chips to Apple's competitors for less than they will sell those chips to Apple...
They hope component prices will come down... specifically SSDs and next-gen Intel processors, and probably displays to a lesser extent.
I don't think ultrabooks will sell in large volume. The average selling price of a PC is under $700, and without a low-end model that cheap, they're doomed to a niche market. The only non-Apple computers that can command high prices are extremely powerful machines like high-end workstations and gaming rigs.
They have full sized keyboards and are running modern CPUs, not Atom processors.To give you an idea of how much more of a machine these are the processors, per batch of 1000, from Intel cost as much as entire netbook.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blastdoor
Some of these MBA knockoffs actually look pretty good. But even if they can compete on price with apple they will flop for one simple reason -- PC users are tasteless cheapskates who look only at hz, bytes, and $. They will never pay more than $500 for a computer.
They look great, but I agree if given a choice between $1000+ notebooks that more and more will choose Macs. They know they can walk into an Apple Store to get support if needed and for the few not willing to give up on Windows they can still install it.
I have yet to see a Windows-based notebook with a large multitouch trackpad that worked well. I hope that this issue has been resolved for the Ultrabooks.
I've noticed one or two people buying Airs simply to run Windows without OS X - a waste, they should at least keep Bootcamp.
These Ultrabook competitors will need to either price cheaper than an equivalent Air and Windows licence together, or produce machines superior in spec to a Macbook Air.
I suspect those who try will omit Thunderbolt and thus fail.
I haven't read any of the specifications of the new Ultrabooks. I hope they do well and are priced lower than the Mac Books. I'm looking for features as well as chip speed. The Toshiba has an ethernet port. I like that. It will make it easier to connect to my modem. It also has HDMI. If I ever buy another computer with Windows it will definitely become a dual boot with a distribution of Linux which will be my main OS on it.
They hope component prices will come down... specifically SSDs and next-gen Intel processors, and probably displays to a lesser extent.
I don't think ultrabooks will sell in large volume. The average selling price of a PC is under $700, and without a low-end model that cheap, they're doomed to a niche market. The only non-Apple computers that can command high prices are extremely powerful machines like high-end workstations and gaming rigs.
I hope, for their sake, this first run of ultrabooks is much like the first MBA which sold for considerably more until costs could be brought down. I think people will love these if they were $800, but at over $1000 it's just not going to be anything but a tiny niche product for those that hate yet secretly covet Apple's products.
I haven't read any of the specifications of the new Ultrabooks. I hope they do well and are priced lower than the Mac Books. I'm looking for features as well as chip speed. The Toshiba has an ethernet port. I like that. It will make it easier to connect to my modem. It also has HDMI. If I ever buy another computer with Windows it will definitely become a dual boot with a distribution of Linux which will be my main OS on it.
Some of these look like they have ok specs. Really if they can provide a better windows experience than a macbook air, and market it well, they may have a chance.
They really need some support from microsoft though.
I challenge you to actually think about it for yourselves.
Intel are throwing absolutely everything they have behind Ultrabooks.
.....
That leaves Intel, making a move that threatens to piss off Apple by ripping off their designs and helping their competitors, all so Intel can make less money (because of the above mentioned discounts and incentives) than they would if they just let Apple go ahead and sell more MacBook Air's.
At this point I'm going to assume you've realized we're dealing in shades of grey on this one so I'll say again, I challenge you to actually think about it for yourselves.
Here, let me give you this quote from the WJS first:
"Intel is quick to acknowledge that the Ultrabook effort was in large part inspired by Apple Inc.?s iPad tablet and particularly its sleek MacBook Air. The latter was recently updated with Intel?s latest microprocessors and has been selling much more briskly than most laptop PCs running Microsoft Corp.?s Windows operating system.
'To date if you wanted that sleek design you had to buy a Mac,' said Greg Welch, director of Intel?s Ultrabook group, in an interview last week. 'There are people who want a PC in that form factor.'?
and
"Welch said Apple informed Intel that it better drastically slash its power consumption or would likely lose Apple?s business. 'It was a real wake-up call to us,' he said."
So basically Apple pushed Intel to even go into this realm of high performance and low consumption CPUs. And they are feeling threatened partly by Apple investing so much into ARM.
"Apple threatened to switch to another chipmaker if Intel didn't drastically reduce the power consumption of its chips. The threat of losing one of its main customers has prompted Intel to refocus its product roadmap on reducing power consumption from its current level of 35-40 watts all the way down to 15 watts."
lol I have yet to see anything using thunderbolt at a retail store... I think its worst than firewire was.
It is. With the huge success that USB 2.0 was, everyone will naturally go with 3.0. It's on every mobo these days and there are a ton more devices with 3.0 functionality.
lol I have yet to see anything using thunderbolt at a retail store... I think its worst than firewire was.
You do realize it's only been 6 months since Thunderbolt was first announced to the world, right? Apple is just now getting ready to roll out their Thunderbolt-equipped displays and still haven't added it to every Mac being sold. If at CES 2012 there are no vendors supporting Thunderbolt you can worry. If at CES 2013 there are no vendors supporting Thunderbolt then you call it dead.
PS: This mentality that it's competing with USB therefore it will end up being like FireWire is the most ridiculous, ignorant, and irrational argument I've read on these forums in a long time… and that's saying something considering MacRulez and Galbi are frequent posters.
You do realize it's only been 6 months since Thunderbolt was first announced to the world, right? Apple is just now getting ready to roll out their Thunderbolt-equipped displays and still haven't added it to every Mac being sold. If at CES 2012 there are no vendors supporting Thunderbolt you can worry. If at CES 2013 there are no vendors supporting Thunderbolt then you call it dead.
PS: This mentality that it's competing with USB therefore it will end up being like FireWire is the most ridiculous, ignorant, and irrational argument I've read on these forums in a long time? and that's saying something considering MacRulez and Galbi are frequent posters.
So apple things that they will carry the entire interface on their back again like they tried to do with firewire? There's a reason mobos these days don't have it. Nobody wants to develop devices for it.
USB 3.0 is perfectly backwards compatible with all USB 2.0 devices. That?s good news, because there are vast quantities of USB 2.0 devices still on the shelves, including newer and older models. Plus, it?s unlikely that users will want to get rid of their existing USB 2.0 devices before their lifespan has expired. USB 3.0 makes it a smooth transition.
Thunderbolt is striclty an Intel technolgoy, meaning you won?t be able to find a Thunderbolt port on a computer that?s based on AMD chipsets or other off-brand CPUs. That may be a factor, now that the market has somewhat cooled in its preference for Intel over AMD.
So if Apple keeps bitching about Intel and switches to AMD? Then what happens? No Apple support. Now I know that Apple wouldn't dare switch to AMD for CPUs, but it's definitely a factor for non Apple Products, and these non Apple products are what shapes the market in terms of other devices.
But seriously, the USB 2.0 backwards compatibility will kill it alone.
So apple things that they will carry the entire interface on their back again like they tried to do with firewire? There's a reason mobos these days don't have it. Nobody wants to develop devices for it.
USB 3.0 is perfectly backwards compatible with all USB 2.0 devices. That?s good news, because there are vast quantities of USB 2.0 devices still on the shelves, including newer and older models. Plus, it?s unlikely that users will want to get rid of their existing USB 2.0 devices before their lifespan has expired. USB 3.0 makes it a smooth transition.
Thunderbolt is striclty an Intel technolgoy, meaning you won?t be able to find a Thunderbolt port on a computer that?s based on AMD chipsets or other off-brand CPUs. That may be a factor, now that the market has somewhat cooled in its preference for Intel over AMD.
So if Apple keeps bitching about Intel and switches to AMD? Then what happens? No Apple support. Now I know that Apple wouldn't dare switch to AMD for CPUs, but it's definitely a factor for non Apple Products, and these non Apple products are what shapes the market in terms of other devices.
But seriously, the USB 2.0 backwards compatibility will kill it alone.
1) Thunderbolt is an Intel tech. Remember who started USB? That's right, Intel. Maybe you should attempt to see how well USB has done in the market.
2) The mDP port interface has already been used by many graphic card and display markers. Making it Thunderbolt compatible won't be a big jump, especially with Intel including it in the chipset for next year's releases.
3) You should realize the glaring benefits of Thunderbolt/DisplayPort and see that it has a very good chance of becoming a standard once Intel adds support to their chips. Oh yeah, the license costs NOTHING, unlike the high priced license of FireWire which was the de facto hinderance of the tech despite it's capabilities.
4) USB doesn't have to go away for Thunderbolt to succeed. Coming it's also the next generation video-out port whereas USB3.0 is not, there are plenty of reasons why you can expect Thunderbolt to be coming to 'PCs' in 2012. Just wait until the next CES before you cry foul.
Comments
From my understanding, the OEMs asked for even further discounts to which Intel said, "Hell no!" I think that Intel wants the OEMs to move away from the race to the bottom for their own good (HP anyone?) and also to stave off any thoughts of moving to ARM since Microsoft is now porting Windows 8 to ARM.
ARM is really not the major threat that Intel faces. AMD is a far bigger concern at this point.
This is a grim omen.
First of all, this reflects the basic fact that the Windows PC market isn't really receptive to this category. Dell's Adamo was a commercial failure and PC manufacturers are well aware of that.
....
Secondly, these PC manufacturers are probably wary of another TouchPad debacle.
Have Windows PC manufacturers painted themselves into a shitty, low-margin unsatisfying corner where their main competitor innovates, generates high customer satisfaction and walks away with the lion's share of the industry's profits?
Every poster should re-read this before commenting.
This is a grim omen.
. . .
Have Windows PC manufacturers painted themselves into a shitty, low-margin unsatisfying corner where their main competitor innovates, generates high customer satisfaction and walks away with the lion's share of the industry's profits?
Wish there was a way to follow certain members. Appreciate your clarity, from This to profits.
ARM is really not the major threat that Intel faces. AMD is a far bigger concern at this point.
Yes and no. Many Windows users already expect a slow computer and don't use that many third party applications. If Microsoft ports over it's usual cadre of apps or makes using its Windows Live apps acceptable, then I could see people buying lower cost ARM netbooks because they simply don't know any better.
I challenge you to actually think about it for yourselves.
Ok, Einstein.
I challenge you to actually think about it for yourselves?
You realize absolutely nothing you followed that with supports your earlier statement that?
Ultrabooks are not a response to Apple.
In fact, the bit about "ripping off Apple's designs" would indicate exactly the opposite.
This "segment" didn't exist until Apple created it with the MacBook Air. After an iteration or two, it got popular, and now the PC market wants in on the action. How is that not a response to Apple?
[making a device that costs $1000, while not losing money on it] "This is the major reason why we do not believe that the ultrabook segment is really going to take off until next year."
What exactly will happen next year that will change the situation? Apple still will be able to beat everybody on costs due to their volume, not having to pay the Windows tax, and having more flexibility in being able to design the computer. And Intel will get a swift kick by Apple and/or the FTC if they try to sell chips to Apple's competitors for less than they will sell those chips to Apple...
They hope component prices will come down... specifically SSDs and next-gen Intel processors, and probably displays to a lesser extent.
I don't think ultrabooks will sell in large volume. The average selling price of a PC is under $700, and without a low-end model that cheap, they're doomed to a niche market. The only non-Apple computers that can command high prices are extremely powerful machines like high-end workstations and gaming rigs.
After netbook, they try ultra-netbook. Nice try.
They have full sized keyboards and are running modern CPUs, not Atom processors.To give you an idea of how much more of a machine these are the processors, per batch of 1000, from Intel cost as much as entire netbook.
Some of these MBA knockoffs actually look pretty good. But even if they can compete on price with apple they will flop for one simple reason -- PC users are tasteless cheapskates who look only at hz, bytes, and $. They will never pay more than $500 for a computer.
They look great, but I agree if given a choice between $1000+ notebooks that more and more will choose Macs. They know they can walk into an Apple Store to get support if needed and for the few not willing to give up on Windows they can still install it.
I have yet to see a Windows-based notebook with a large multitouch trackpad that worked well. I hope that this issue has been resolved for the Ultrabooks.
I've noticed one or two people buying Airs simply to run Windows without OS X - a waste, they should at least keep Bootcamp.
These Ultrabook competitors will need to either price cheaper than an equivalent Air and Windows licence together, or produce machines superior in spec to a Macbook Air.
I suspect those who try will omit Thunderbolt and thus fail.
I haven't read any of the specifications of the new Ultrabooks. I hope they do well and are priced lower than the Mac Books. I'm looking for features as well as chip speed. The Toshiba has an ethernet port. I like that. It will make it easier to connect to my modem. It also has HDMI. If I ever buy another computer with Windows it will definitely become a dual boot with a distribution of Linux which will be my main OS on it.
They hope component prices will come down... specifically SSDs and next-gen Intel processors, and probably displays to a lesser extent.
I don't think ultrabooks will sell in large volume. The average selling price of a PC is under $700, and without a low-end model that cheap, they're doomed to a niche market. The only non-Apple computers that can command high prices are extremely powerful machines like high-end workstations and gaming rigs.
I hope, for their sake, this first run of ultrabooks is much like the first MBA which sold for considerably more until costs could be brought down. I think people will love these if they were $800, but at over $1000 it's just not going to be anything but a tiny niche product for those that hate yet secretly covet Apple's products.
I haven't read any of the specifications of the new Ultrabooks. I hope they do well and are priced lower than the Mac Books. I'm looking for features as well as chip speed. The Toshiba has an ethernet port. I like that. It will make it easier to connect to my modem. It also has HDMI. If I ever buy another computer with Windows it will definitely become a dual boot with a distribution of Linux which will be my main OS on it.
Specs, specs, specs...
They really need some support from microsoft though.
Ultrabooks are not a response to Apple.
I challenge you to actually think about it for yourselves.
Intel are throwing absolutely everything they have behind Ultrabooks.
.....
That leaves Intel, making a move that threatens to piss off Apple by ripping off their designs and helping their competitors, all so Intel can make less money (because of the above mentioned discounts and incentives) than they would if they just let Apple go ahead and sell more MacBook Air's.
At this point I'm going to assume you've realized we're dealing in shades of grey on this one so I'll say again, I challenge you to actually think about it for yourselves.
Here, let me give you this quote from the WJS first:
"Intel is quick to acknowledge that the Ultrabook effort was in large part inspired by Apple Inc.?s iPad tablet and particularly its sleek MacBook Air. The latter was recently updated with Intel?s latest microprocessors and has been selling much more briskly than most laptop PCs running Microsoft Corp.?s Windows operating system.
'To date if you wanted that sleek design you had to buy a Mac,' said Greg Welch, director of Intel?s Ultrabook group, in an interview last week. 'There are people who want a PC in that form factor.'?
and
"Welch said Apple informed Intel that it better drastically slash its power consumption or would likely lose Apple?s business. 'It was a real wake-up call to us,' he said."
The rest of the article can be found here:
http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2011/08/...ur-ultrabooks/
So basically Apple pushed Intel to even go into this realm of high performance and low consumption CPUs. And they are feeling threatened partly by Apple investing so much into ARM.
http://www.pcworld.com/article/23803...nsumption.html
http://www.tuaw.com/2011/08/11/intel...atens-to-dump/
Another really good quote:
"Apple threatened to switch to another chipmaker if Intel didn't drastically reduce the power consumption of its chips. The threat of losing one of its main customers has prompted Intel to refocus its product roadmap on reducing power consumption from its current level of 35-40 watts all the way down to 15 watts."
I suspect those who try will omit Thunderbolt and thus fail.
lol I have yet to see anything using thunderbolt at a retail store... I think its worst than firewire was.
lol I have yet to see anything using thunderbolt at a retail store... I think its worst than firewire was.
It is. With the huge success that USB 2.0 was, everyone will naturally go with 3.0. It's on every mobo these days and there are a ton more devices with 3.0 functionality.
Thunderbolt is DOA
lol I have yet to see anything using thunderbolt at a retail store... I think its worst than firewire was.
You do realize it's only been 6 months since Thunderbolt was first announced to the world, right? Apple is just now getting ready to roll out their Thunderbolt-equipped displays and still haven't added it to every Mac being sold. If at CES 2012 there are no vendors supporting Thunderbolt you can worry. If at CES 2013 there are no vendors supporting Thunderbolt then you call it dead.
PS: This mentality that it's competing with USB therefore it will end up being like FireWire is the most ridiculous, ignorant, and irrational argument I've read on these forums in a long time… and that's saying something considering MacRulez and Galbi are frequent posters.
The threat from ARM to Intel's existence will ensure it (even if Intel have to start manufacturing the damn things themselves
The label will now say "Intel inside AND out!"
You do realize it's only been 6 months since Thunderbolt was first announced to the world, right? Apple is just now getting ready to roll out their Thunderbolt-equipped displays and still haven't added it to every Mac being sold. If at CES 2012 there are no vendors supporting Thunderbolt you can worry. If at CES 2013 there are no vendors supporting Thunderbolt then you call it dead.
PS: This mentality that it's competing with USB therefore it will end up being like FireWire is the most ridiculous, ignorant, and irrational argument I've read on these forums in a long time? and that's saying something considering MacRulez and Galbi are frequent posters.
So apple things that they will carry the entire interface on their back again like they tried to do with firewire? There's a reason mobos these days don't have it. Nobody wants to develop devices for it.
USB 3.0 is perfectly backwards compatible with all USB 2.0 devices. That?s good news, because there are vast quantities of USB 2.0 devices still on the shelves, including newer and older models. Plus, it?s unlikely that users will want to get rid of their existing USB 2.0 devices before their lifespan has expired. USB 3.0 makes it a smooth transition.
Thunderbolt is striclty an Intel technolgoy, meaning you won?t be able to find a Thunderbolt port on a computer that?s based on AMD chipsets or other off-brand CPUs. That may be a factor, now that the market has somewhat cooled in its preference for Intel over AMD.
So if Apple keeps bitching about Intel and switches to AMD? Then what happens? No Apple support. Now I know that Apple wouldn't dare switch to AMD for CPUs, but it's definitely a factor for non Apple Products, and these non Apple products are what shapes the market in terms of other devices.
But seriously, the USB 2.0 backwards compatibility will kill it alone.
So apple things that they will carry the entire interface on their back again like they tried to do with firewire? There's a reason mobos these days don't have it. Nobody wants to develop devices for it.
USB 3.0 is perfectly backwards compatible with all USB 2.0 devices. That?s good news, because there are vast quantities of USB 2.0 devices still on the shelves, including newer and older models. Plus, it?s unlikely that users will want to get rid of their existing USB 2.0 devices before their lifespan has expired. USB 3.0 makes it a smooth transition.
Thunderbolt is striclty an Intel technolgoy, meaning you won?t be able to find a Thunderbolt port on a computer that?s based on AMD chipsets or other off-brand CPUs. That may be a factor, now that the market has somewhat cooled in its preference for Intel over AMD.
So if Apple keeps bitching about Intel and switches to AMD? Then what happens? No Apple support. Now I know that Apple wouldn't dare switch to AMD for CPUs, but it's definitely a factor for non Apple Products, and these non Apple products are what shapes the market in terms of other devices.
But seriously, the USB 2.0 backwards compatibility will kill it alone.
1) Thunderbolt is an Intel tech. Remember who started USB? That's right, Intel. Maybe you should attempt to see how well USB has done in the market.
2) The mDP port interface has already been used by many graphic card and display markers. Making it Thunderbolt compatible won't be a big jump, especially with Intel including it in the chipset for next year's releases.
3) You should realize the glaring benefits of Thunderbolt/DisplayPort and see that it has a very good chance of becoming a standard once Intel adds support to their chips. Oh yeah, the license costs NOTHING, unlike the high priced license of FireWire which was the de facto hinderance of the tech despite it's capabilities.
4) USB doesn't have to go away for Thunderbolt to succeed. Coming it's also the next generation video-out port whereas USB3.0 is not, there are plenty of reasons why you can expect Thunderbolt to be coming to 'PCs' in 2012. Just wait until the next CES before you cry foul.