Microsoft actually approached the companies and worked out a settlement deal. To our knowledge, ALL apple has done is sue companies to get them to STOP using allegedly infringed IP.
So:
Microsoft: Pay us because we think you're using our product, if you don't we'll sue you to pay us
Apple: We're suing you to stop using our product and make you start from ground zero again.
Why is this a question?
It's also worth noting that all the companies that signed with Microsoft have existing deals with the company for either their computer or mobile software (or both)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetz
1. Does Apple even do licensing deals or do they always just try to kill/ban the competition?
2. It's in Microsoft's best interest to not be too harsh on the OEMs or they just might just refuse to sell MS products (see Motorola and Windows Phone 7). If MS goes for blood with the OEMs, there won't be any OEMs to build the hardware that runs MS software.
Apple has said from the beginning of iPhone/iOS that they are defending their IP, and are not interested in outbound IP licensing of iPhone/iOS. From Apple's perspective they spend a lot of money to generate unique IP compared to the rest of the market, they would like to be able to sell their products without anyone else just stealing the IP once they see it.
Patents are a government granted monopoly which is a directly intended as a governmental reward for spending on R&D. As Apple isn't looking to rent themselves as a generic industry R&D lab, the negotiation is short -- send a C&D letter. Once the reasonable period goes by and the infringer hasn't stopped using the IP, they sue. It gets simple when they aren't interested in licensing their IP.
1. Does Apple even do licensing deals or do they always just try to kill/ban the competition?
2. It's in Microsoft's best interest to not be too harsh on the OEMs or they just might just refuse to sell MS products (see Motorola and Windows Phone 7). If MS goes for blood with the OEMs, there won't be any OEMs to build the hardware that runs MS software.
There are lots of multi-media tech they license. They also reserve the right to keep things proprietary. But it all comes down to money. If Samsung offered $25/Android handset, I am sure Apple would take the 1.2 billion/year to the bank. It would also increase the cost of the Samsung products enough to slow sales and increase iPhone sales a bit. So Apple would look at the cost benefit analysis and maximize shareholder return.
There are lots of multi-media tech they license. They also reserve the right to keep things proprietary. But it all comes down to money. If Samsung offered $25/Android handset, I am sure Apple would take the 1.2 billion/year to the bank. It would also increase the cost of the Samsung products enough to slow sales and increase iPhone sales a bit. So Apple would look at the cost benefit analysis and maximize shareholder return.
You should use a different company in your example. Samsung is being sued for trade dress and design patents and there is no way Apple would accept money for those.
Apple has said from the beginning of iPhone/iOS that they are defending their IP, and are not interested in outbound IP licensing of iPhone/iOS. From Apple's perspective they spend a lot of money to generate unique IP compared to the rest of the market, they would like to be able to sell their products without anyone else just stealing the IP once they see it.
Patents are a government granted monopoly which is a directly intended as a governmental reward for spending on R&D. As Apple isn't looking to rent themselves as a generic industry R&D lab, the negotiation is short -- send a C&D letter. Once the reasonable period goes by and the infringer hasn't stopped using the IP, they sue. It gets simple when they aren't interested in licensing their IP.
I'm not making a comment one way or the other about WHY apple's sued. I'm merely answering the question of WHY companies are signing deals with Microsoft and no one is paying apple yet.
As you pointed out, Apple doesn't want to be paid.
Apple has said from the beginning of iPhone/iOS that they are defending their IP, and are not interested in outbound IP licensing of iPhone/iOS. From Apple's perspective they spend a lot of money to generate unique IP compared to the rest of the market, they would like to be able to sell their products without anyone else just stealing the IP once they see it.
Patents are a government granted monopoly which is a directly intended as a governmental reward for spending on R&D. As Apple isn't looking to rent themselves as a generic industry R&D lab, the negotiation is short -- send a C&D letter. Once the reasonable period goes by and the infringer hasn't stopped using the IP, they sue. It gets simple when they aren't interested in licensing their IP.
Well put. It is a completely understandable approach when you are the leading innovator.
Microsoft actually approached the companies and worked out a settlement deal. To our knowledge, ALL apple has done is sue companies to get them to STOP using allegedly infringed IP.
So:
Microsoft: Pay us because we think you're using our product, if you don't we'll sue you to pay us
Apple: We're suing you to stop using our product and make you start from ground zero again.
Why is this a question?
We don't know anything about how these cross licensing deal were made, or how Apple has been playing this game behind the scenes. Only thing I know is that making a caricature out of it is too easy. For all I know Apple may have offered HTC and others the option to license some of their patents, but got no deal because the other parties involved decided to take their chances through litigation. Personally, I can understand Apple isn't too bothered with any of this, they don't need the extra revenue, and they have piles of patented technology they actually developed themselves, so they hardly have anything to lose here.
Quote:
It's also worth noting that all the companies that signed with Microsoft have existing deals with the company for either their computer or mobile software (or both)
Exactly. This line alone already largely explains how things got like this. No need to pull out the hyperbole at all.
We don't know anything about how these cross licensing deal were made, or how Apple has been playing this game behind the scenes. Only thing I know is that making a caricature out of it is too easy. For all I know Apple may have offered HTC and others the option to license some of their patents, but got no deal because the other parties involved decided to take their chances through litigation. Personally, I can understand Apple isn't too bothered with any of this, they don't need the extra revenue, and they have piles of patented technology they actually developed themselves, so they hardly have anything to lose here.
If apple was open to licensing, I think their lawsuits would be towards that goal (they should pay us for this stuff) instead of "they should stop making this stuff." Samsung, HTC, Motorola, etc. have ALL stated their willing to negotiate with Apple and reach a settlement.
You're right, we don't know what went on behind the scenes, but the fact that no company has made an announcement about licensing patents. Sure, maybe the big ones think they can cross license, but the smaller companies? Why didn't they sign with Apple if apple is trying to negotiate? Furthermore, why would these companies be willing to settle, if they weren't willing in the first place? with the exception of the HTC case and some samsung stuff in Germany, all of the cases are still in their earlier stages.
Quote:
Exactly. This line alone already largely explains how things got like this. No need to pull out the hyperbole at all.
It's not hyperbole. Apple's lawsuits are to remove these products. As you said, Apple doesn't need the revenue, and their wording is rather clear that they view this as protecting IP, not protecting the right to make money through licensing.
LOL. if you believe you can develop for WP7 with those tools....LOL, i hear there is a bridge in Alaska Sarah Palin would sell you. Name one developer using the "free" versions of Microsofts tools? Of course besides the kiddies who think they are going to write xbox games?
And if you are not sure why you need a server or database, then you clearly have no idea what you are talking about.
Most developers don't pay for their tools. Not sure which world you live in; but I have never paid one dollar to develop software on any platform for over 20 years.
Those free versions do everything you need. Perhaps you should download them and check them out before you pass any judgements.
Most developers don't pay for their tools. Not sure which world you live in; but I have never paid one dollar to develop software on any platform for over 20 years.
Those free versions do everything you need. Perhaps you should download them and check them out before you pass any judgements.
Any real development, real meaning outside some script kiddie messing around, will not work on the Microsoft Express editions...too many artificial limitations. Microsoft needs everyone to pay their outrageous prices to be locked into their proprietary universe. That is how they make all those billions of USD. Not by giving away software.
We do not pay anything for OSes, IDEs, App Servers, Databases, Tools, etc...since we do not use the super expensive, proprietary, Microsoft stack. No vendor lock-in is a great place to be.
LOL. if you believe you can develop for WP7 with those tools....LOL, i hear there is a bridge in Alaska Sarah Palin would sell you. Name one developer using the "free" versions of Microsofts tools? Of course besides the kiddies who think they are going to write xbox games?
And if you are not sure why you need a server or database, then you clearly have no idea what you are talking about.
Yeah, that is pretty much amateur hour. Fine for students, nothing wrong with being a starving student, and the free Visual Studio is the best IDE out there for Windows. That's for homebrew.
The real difference is the cost of going pro. Microsoft MSDN licenses cost a fortune, but are well worth it because you get the keys to te entire kingdom. Apple's pro development tools come with every copy of OS X and developer programs cost far less ($99/year for iOS or OS X each).
Yeah, that is pretty much amateur hour. Fine for students, nothing wrong with being a starving student, and the free Visual Studio is the best IDE out there for Windows. That's for homebrew.
The real difference is the cost of going pro. Microsoft MSDN licenses cost a fortune, but are well worth it because you get the keys to te entire kingdom. Apple's pro development tools come with every copy of OS X and developer programs cost far less ($99/year for iOS or OS X each).
I agree, the _full_ version of Visual Studio is the best IDE for _Microsoft focused_ development on Windows. If you are not focused on Microsoft development, there are far better IDEs to use...use the tool which best supports what you are trying to do.
Yeah, that is pretty much amateur hour. Fine for students, nothing wrong with being a starving student, and the free Visual Studio is the best IDE out there for Windows. That's for homebrew.
True except for WP7 development. From the Microsoft website:
When you install Visual Studio 2010 Express for Windows Phone, you also get Windows Phone Emulator, Expression Blend, XNA Game Studio, samples, and other SDK components. If Visual Studio 2010 Professional or higher is already installed on your development computer, an add-in for Visual Studio 2010 Professional is automatically installed as well. With the exception of a few debugging features, the add-in provides Windows Phone application development support equivalent to Visual Studio 2010 Express for Windows Phone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bullhead
LOL. if you believe you can develop for WP7 with those tools....LOL, i hear there is a bridge in Alaska Sarah Palin would sell you. Name one developer using the "free" versions of Microsofts tools? Of course besides the kiddies who think they are going to write xbox games?
And if you are not sure why you need a server or database, then you clearly have no idea what you are talking about.
True except for WP7 development. From the Microsoft website:
When you install Visual Studio 2010 Express for Windows Phone, you also get Windows Phone Emulator, Expression Blend, XNA Game Studio, samples, and other SDK components. If Visual Studio 2010 Professional or higher is already installed on your development computer, an add-in for Visual Studio 2010 Professional is automatically installed as well. With the exception of a few debugging features, the add-in provides Windows Phone application development support equivalent to Visual Studio 2010 Express for Windows Phone.
Guess nothing else needs to be said...you clearly do not do development, and have no clue what you are talking about. LAMP is so unpopular because everyone can develop and deploy to the super expensive, i mean free according to you, proprietary Microsoft stack.
Guess nothing else needs to be said...you clearly do not do development, and have no clue what you are talking about. LAMP is so unpopular because everyone can develop and deploy to the super expensive, i mean free according to you, proprietary Microsoft stack.
Oooooooh nooooo! Is the big bad Microsoft going to steal all your money with their fancy scary cloud services?
Maybe I shouldn't have said welcome to 2011... maybe I should have said welcome to this century.
I'm not going to argue with you... the world needs tech dinosaurs like yourself. You can sit up next to the COBAL and Pascal developers and keep ranting about the way it used to be to remind the rest of us why we keep our skills up to date and keep moving forward.
Comments
Microsoft actually approached the companies and worked out a settlement deal. To our knowledge, ALL apple has done is sue companies to get them to STOP using allegedly infringed IP.
So:
Microsoft: Pay us because we think you're using our product, if you don't we'll sue you to pay us
Apple: We're suing you to stop using our product and make you start from ground zero again.
Why is this a question?
It's also worth noting that all the companies that signed with Microsoft have existing deals with the company for either their computer or mobile software (or both)
1. Does Apple even do licensing deals or do they always just try to kill/ban the competition?
2. It's in Microsoft's best interest to not be too harsh on the OEMs or they just might just refuse to sell MS products (see Motorola and Windows Phone 7). If MS goes for blood with the OEMs, there won't be any OEMs to build the hardware that runs MS software.
Apple has said from the beginning of iPhone/iOS that they are defending their IP, and are not interested in outbound IP licensing of iPhone/iOS. From Apple's perspective they spend a lot of money to generate unique IP compared to the rest of the market, they would like to be able to sell their products without anyone else just stealing the IP once they see it.
Patents are a government granted monopoly which is a directly intended as a governmental reward for spending on R&D. As Apple isn't looking to rent themselves as a generic industry R&D lab, the negotiation is short -- send a C&D letter. Once the reasonable period goes by and the infringer hasn't stopped using the IP, they sue. It gets simple when they aren't interested in licensing their IP.
1. Does Apple even do licensing deals or do they always just try to kill/ban the competition?
2. It's in Microsoft's best interest to not be too harsh on the OEMs or they just might just refuse to sell MS products (see Motorola and Windows Phone 7). If MS goes for blood with the OEMs, there won't be any OEMs to build the hardware that runs MS software.
There are lots of multi-media tech they license. They also reserve the right to keep things proprietary. But it all comes down to money. If Samsung offered $25/Android handset, I am sure Apple would take the 1.2 billion/year to the bank. It would also increase the cost of the Samsung products enough to slow sales and increase iPhone sales a bit. So Apple would look at the cost benefit analysis and maximize shareholder return.
There are lots of multi-media tech they license. They also reserve the right to keep things proprietary. But it all comes down to money. If Samsung offered $25/Android handset, I am sure Apple would take the 1.2 billion/year to the bank. It would also increase the cost of the Samsung products enough to slow sales and increase iPhone sales a bit. So Apple would look at the cost benefit analysis and maximize shareholder return.
You should use a different company in your example. Samsung is being sued for trade dress and design patents and there is no way Apple would accept money for those.
Apple has said from the beginning of iPhone/iOS that they are defending their IP, and are not interested in outbound IP licensing of iPhone/iOS. From Apple's perspective they spend a lot of money to generate unique IP compared to the rest of the market, they would like to be able to sell their products without anyone else just stealing the IP once they see it.
Patents are a government granted monopoly which is a directly intended as a governmental reward for spending on R&D. As Apple isn't looking to rent themselves as a generic industry R&D lab, the negotiation is short -- send a C&D letter. Once the reasonable period goes by and the infringer hasn't stopped using the IP, they sue. It gets simple when they aren't interested in licensing their IP.
I'm not making a comment one way or the other about WHY apple's sued. I'm merely answering the question of WHY companies are signing deals with Microsoft and no one is paying apple yet.
As you pointed out, Apple doesn't want to be paid.
Apple has said from the beginning of iPhone/iOS that they are defending their IP, and are not interested in outbound IP licensing of iPhone/iOS. From Apple's perspective they spend a lot of money to generate unique IP compared to the rest of the market, they would like to be able to sell their products without anyone else just stealing the IP once they see it.
Patents are a government granted monopoly which is a directly intended as a governmental reward for spending on R&D. As Apple isn't looking to rent themselves as a generic industry R&D lab, the negotiation is short -- send a C&D letter. Once the reasonable period goes by and the infringer hasn't stopped using the IP, they sue. It gets simple when they aren't interested in licensing their IP.
Well put. It is a completely understandable approach when you are the leading innovator.
Microsoft actually approached the companies and worked out a settlement deal. To our knowledge, ALL apple has done is sue companies to get them to STOP using allegedly infringed IP.
So:
Microsoft: Pay us because we think you're using our product, if you don't we'll sue you to pay us
Apple: We're suing you to stop using our product and make you start from ground zero again.
Why is this a question?
We don't know anything about how these cross licensing deal were made, or how Apple has been playing this game behind the scenes. Only thing I know is that making a caricature out of it is too easy. For all I know Apple may have offered HTC and others the option to license some of their patents, but got no deal because the other parties involved decided to take their chances through litigation. Personally, I can understand Apple isn't too bothered with any of this, they don't need the extra revenue, and they have piles of patented technology they actually developed themselves, so they hardly have anything to lose here.
It's also worth noting that all the companies that signed with Microsoft have existing deals with the company for either their computer or mobile software (or both)
Exactly. This line alone already largely explains how things got like this. No need to pull out the hyperbole at all.
We don't know anything about how these cross licensing deal were made, or how Apple has been playing this game behind the scenes. Only thing I know is that making a caricature out of it is too easy. For all I know Apple may have offered HTC and others the option to license some of their patents, but got no deal because the other parties involved decided to take their chances through litigation. Personally, I can understand Apple isn't too bothered with any of this, they don't need the extra revenue, and they have piles of patented technology they actually developed themselves, so they hardly have anything to lose here.
If apple was open to licensing, I think their lawsuits would be towards that goal (they should pay us for this stuff) instead of "they should stop making this stuff." Samsung, HTC, Motorola, etc. have ALL stated their willing to negotiate with Apple and reach a settlement.
You're right, we don't know what went on behind the scenes, but the fact that no company has made an announcement about licensing patents. Sure, maybe the big ones think they can cross license, but the smaller companies? Why didn't they sign with Apple if apple is trying to negotiate? Furthermore, why would these companies be willing to settle, if they weren't willing in the first place? with the exception of the HTC case and some samsung stuff in Germany, all of the cases are still in their earlier stages.
Exactly. This line alone already largely explains how things got like this. No need to pull out the hyperbole at all.
It's not hyperbole. Apple's lawsuits are to remove these products. As you said, Apple doesn't need the revenue, and their wording is rather clear that they view this as protecting IP, not protecting the right to make money through licensing.
LOL. if you believe you can develop for WP7 with those tools....LOL, i hear there is a bridge in Alaska Sarah Palin would sell you. Name one developer using the "free" versions of Microsofts tools? Of course besides the kiddies who think they are going to write xbox games?
And if you are not sure why you need a server or database, then you clearly have no idea what you are talking about.
Most developers don't pay for their tools. Not sure which world you live in; but I have never paid one dollar to develop software on any platform for over 20 years.
Those free versions do everything you need. Perhaps you should download them and check them out before you pass any judgements.
Most developers don't pay for their tools. Not sure which world you live in; but I have never paid one dollar to develop software on any platform for over 20 years.
Those free versions do everything you need. Perhaps you should download them and check them out before you pass any judgements.
Any real development, real meaning outside some script kiddie messing around, will not work on the Microsoft Express editions...too many artificial limitations. Microsoft needs everyone to pay their outrageous prices to be locked into their proprietary universe. That is how they make all those billions of USD. Not by giving away software.
We do not pay anything for OSes, IDEs, App Servers, Databases, Tools, etc...since we do not use the super expensive, proprietary, Microsoft stack. No vendor lock-in is a great place to be.
LOL. if you believe you can develop for WP7 with those tools....LOL, i hear there is a bridge in Alaska Sarah Palin would sell you. Name one developer using the "free" versions of Microsofts tools? Of course besides the kiddies who think they are going to write xbox games?
And if you are not sure why you need a server or database, then you clearly have no idea what you are talking about.
Yeah, that is pretty much amateur hour. Fine for students, nothing wrong with being a starving student, and the free Visual Studio is the best IDE out there for Windows. That's for homebrew.
The real difference is the cost of going pro. Microsoft MSDN licenses cost a fortune, but are well worth it because you get the keys to te entire kingdom. Apple's pro development tools come with every copy of OS X and developer programs cost far less ($99/year for iOS or OS X each).
Yeah, that is pretty much amateur hour. Fine for students, nothing wrong with being a starving student, and the free Visual Studio is the best IDE out there for Windows. That's for homebrew.
The real difference is the cost of going pro. Microsoft MSDN licenses cost a fortune, but are well worth it because you get the keys to te entire kingdom. Apple's pro development tools come with every copy of OS X and developer programs cost far less ($99/year for iOS or OS X each).
I agree, the _full_ version of Visual Studio is the best IDE for _Microsoft focused_ development on Windows. If you are not focused on Microsoft development, there are far better IDEs to use...use the tool which best supports what you are trying to do.
Yeah, that is pretty much amateur hour. Fine for students, nothing wrong with being a starving student, and the free Visual Studio is the best IDE out there for Windows. That's for homebrew.
True except for WP7 development. From the Microsoft website:
When you install Visual Studio 2010 Express for Windows Phone, you also get Windows Phone Emulator, Expression Blend, XNA Game Studio, samples, and other SDK components. If Visual Studio 2010 Professional or higher is already installed on your development computer, an add-in for Visual Studio 2010 Professional is automatically installed as well. With the exception of a few debugging features, the add-in provides Windows Phone application development support equivalent to Visual Studio 2010 Express for Windows Phone.
LOL. if you believe you can develop for WP7 with those tools....LOL, i hear there is a bridge in Alaska Sarah Palin would sell you. Name one developer using the "free" versions of Microsofts tools? Of course besides the kiddies who think they are going to write xbox games?
And if you are not sure why you need a server or database, then you clearly have no idea what you are talking about.
You're clueless.
And if you're developing for WP7 and hosting your own server and database then you're living in the past. Read up on Amazon Web Services, Microsoft Azure and Google App Engine. Welcome to 2011.
Again, you can thank be later!
True except for WP7 development. From the Microsoft website:
When you install Visual Studio 2010 Express for Windows Phone, you also get Windows Phone Emulator, Expression Blend, XNA Game Studio, samples, and other SDK components. If Visual Studio 2010 Professional or higher is already installed on your development computer, an add-in for Visual Studio 2010 Professional is automatically installed as well. With the exception of a few debugging features, the add-in provides Windows Phone application development support equivalent to Visual Studio 2010 Express for Windows Phone.
As above. You're clueless.
And if you're developing for WP7 and hosting your own server and database then you're living in the past. Read up on Amazon Web Services, Microsoft Azure and Google App Engine. Welcome to 2011.
Again, you can thank be later!
Guess nothing else needs to be said...you clearly do not do development, and have no clue what you are talking about. LAMP is so unpopular because everyone can develop and deploy to the super expensive, i mean free according to you, proprietary Microsoft stack.
Guess nothing else needs to be said...you clearly do not do development, and have no clue what you are talking about. LAMP is so unpopular because everyone can develop and deploy to the super expensive, i mean free according to you, proprietary Microsoft stack.
Oooooooh nooooo! Is the big bad Microsoft going to steal all your money with their fancy scary cloud services?
Maybe I shouldn't have said welcome to 2011... maybe I should have said welcome to this century.
I'm not going to argue with you... the world needs tech dinosaurs like yourself. You can sit up next to the COBAL and Pascal developers and keep ranting about the way it used to be to remind the rest of us why we keep our skills up to date and keep moving forward.