Do these people have nothing better to do? Whips and chains would probably please them more. I guess a lot still make a good living off the Microsoft ecosystem, directly or indirectly, as I'm sure some of us do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell
BUILD conference attendees that were yesterday handed tablets and a developer version of Windows 8 confirmed that Flash still does not run in the Internet Explorer 10 browser (see image) that came with the new OS and Samsung tablet.
Some took delight in watching frustrated peers attempt to install Flash onto their tablets.
“Just walked through press room and saw two people trying furiously to install Flash on their Win8 tablets. LOL,” wrote the editor of a series of Windows books, Jon Hassell.
Even a former Australian Microsoftie, Scott Barnes, was disappointed after attempting to revive his daughter’s EEPC with Windows 8.
“I put win8 on my eepc.. was hoping to use that as my 4yr daughters laptop for Penguinclub but..flash dont work...bah! ,” he Tweeted.
So can we expect Shantanu Narayen to issue a point by point refutation of Microsoft's statements?
It sure seems like they repeated some things from Steve Jobs' open letter, which Narayen said were "patently false".
It's too late for that. I think that he doubted that Apple would have done as well as they did, and that Flash would have been a reason for it. But the appearance of the iPad surprised everyone, and the extreme popularity of that put the nail in the coffin of Flash. The fact that we see web sites as a "full" computer does end the idea that the lack of Flash on a small device such as a phone was one thing they could do without from Apple. But the iPad is proving to be a major tide in the computer industry as a whole, and Apple's place in that can't be denied so far. Adobe just had to cave.
Now, we see MS looking at Apple's success without Flash, and has decided to save themselves from the work needed to support it, and their customers the frustration from using it. If it's working for Apple, then they figure it should work for them as well.
And no matter what Adobe may say, few phones use Flash even now. In mobile, Flash is still in the minority on devices that supposedly can manage it. And even the tablets that do have it have problems with it. Surely Adobe reads those articles and reviews. It's just giving them a black eye.
Hopefully those sites that still only push Flash video will also move on to HTML 5 instead shortly. I complain to those few financial sites that still do that, even though a number of those video reports are ironically about iOS, and its success.
Rarely do I cheer MS, but this is a step in the right direction. This could finally be the final nail in Flash's coffin.
Don't get me wrong, Flash saved the internet from falling into the clutches of Windows Media, so we should all be grateful for that, but Flash has run its course. It has been superseded by newer, better tech (HTML 5), and now it's time to move on and embrace industry standards.
The two that annoy me the most would be Engadget and BBC Radio 1. Plus whenever your following a link to a video on a blog or other smaller site, 30 - 40% of the time there in flash.
I agree with you. The BBC do have an iPad app but I really would love for the Beeb to get its act together on its web site.
I do like it when we get statements like this, "we decided not to implement this functionality to benefit our users". Coincidently it also meant we had to do less work.
In this case though I do agree. Flash IMO should only ever be used for video. Microsofts approach of having a metro ie and normal ie also means that when you do get to a video you still have the option to view it, rather than current smartphones and tablets where your just left having to switch to a pc. I wonder if a future option could be to enable plugins per instance of them on a page. E.g. When a page has a flash video you first click to enable flash on that zone and then when you navigate away flash is turned off again. That could help save battery life without limiting the device.
What I don't get though is Adobes had this issue for a while. To me the solution would be to release a browser with flash built in. Might be a bit borderline for getting past the iOS restrictions.
It's really just the opposite. Video should never be run through Flash. It used to be that they needed Flash to get the Ads in the video, and I could understand that. But that doesn't seem to be a real problem any more because I'm seeing Ads being embedded within the video itself. Perhaps that prevents more customized a service, as the Ads can't vary between regions and such. But some things have to give, and HTML 5 is working towards that as well, and Adobe will likely be the one to get it done.
So if another Android fan comes along and brags about flash, we now have quotes and testimonies from both Microsoft and Apple on how s**t it actually is. Good day to be right.
Quote:
improves battery life as well as security, reliability and privacy for consumers.
Just because it doesn't come preinstalled doesn't mean it's unsupported. It'll be a plugin just like it is for Firefox, Opera, Safari, etc. HTML5 doesn't hold a candle to the capabilities of Flash.
You are completely wrong here. Didn't you read the article? MS just said that it won't allow the use of plug-ins for Metro. That means no Flash, and MS is taking the same stand Apple has taken, and it's about time!
I'm willing to bet that if we poll users about Flash heavy web sites, most will say that they would just as well do without it. Most of the Flash games can be written in HTML 5 now as well, though not all yet. As for the most important use of Flash, well, it's Ads, and I doubt that even you would prefer Flash Ads to what we now get on our iPads and iPhones, assuming you have one of them.
The people who want Flash the most other than Adobe, are Flash developers, because they make their money from that. They convince customers that Flash heavy work is best. But it will no longer be, even for notebooks and the desktop as mobile takes over more browsing. If your potential customers can't see your Ads or site from their smartphones and tablets, that's bad, because more often than not, those are the people you want, and need for your customers, because they are the ones spending money on things that they don't necessarily need, but prefer.
Adobe has used Adidas's heavily Flashed site as an example of why Flash is important on tablets. But on every demo I've seen of that on a Flash tablet, it's loaded very slowly, and worked jerkily. This isn't a good Ad for Adidas. When I went to their site on my iPad, it loaded almost instantly. Yes, it didn't have all of the animations, but I could use the site. If you have Flash on your tablet, you're more likely to skip their site and go to another sneaker company because of the problems. That's bad business.
If you are telling them that you don't care if they visit your site, you are telling them that you aren't interested in them as customers, and that's really bad business.
I do like it when we get statements like this, "we decided not to implement this functionality to benefit our users". Coincidently it also meant we had to do less work.
In this case though I do agree. Flash IMO should only ever be used for video. Microsofts approach of having a metro ie and normal ie also means that when you do get to a video you still have the option to view it, rather than current smartphones and tablets where your just left having to switch to a pc. I wonder if a future option could be to enable plugins per instance of them on a page. E.g. When a page has a flash video you first click to enable flash on that zone and then when you navigate away flash is turned off again. That could help save battery life without limiting the device.
What I don't get though is Adobes had this issue for a while. To me the solution would be to release a browser with flash built in. Might be a bit borderline for getting past the iOS restrictions.
I think it's the opposite: If all you're doing is straightforward video, then Flash is the wrong way to go nowadays: Serve it up in HTML5 using H.264 by default, offer a seamless fallback to WebM for those HTML5 devices which for various reasons cannot obtain a license for the H.264 patents. (Actually I don't really care if WebM is used by default with a fallback to H.264 or vice-versa. The exact order of the fallback is irrelevant as long as it's seamless.) But only offer Flash as a last-resort fallback for "legacy" customers who for various reasons absolutely cannot upgrade to an HTML5 browser.
(If a product like Adobe's "Media Server" offers an all-in-one solution that accomplishes all three things automatically without any extra effort from the web developer, then all the better!)
Flash still has a few years more life left in it for certain classes of interactive web applications in areas where the HTML5 standards haven't solidified enough yet to offer a universally accessible ecosystem.
MS didn't jettison anything. The first website you go that has flash will ask you to download it. A VAST majority will click the button and then you will have flash on the browser.
You guys are missing the real story. Now it all makes sense!
Think about it...MS releases Metro, which is a true innovation, unlike some others in the mobile space. MS disses flash for the same reasons Steve Jobs mentioned in his letter, and pushing the same HTML5 solution Steve Jobs did. And as we know from the trolls on this board that the only reason Apple doesnt allow flash is because of Steve Jobs's fantasies. And Steve Jobs RESIGNED from Apple!
Connect the dots, Glenn Beck style. Its obvious Steve Jobs is now running MS!
The tablet-optimized Metro version of Internet Explorer 10 in Microsoft's upcoming Windows 8 will be a "plug-in free experience," as the company follows Apple's lead in abandoning Adobe Flash in favor of HTML5 on tablets. View this article at AppleInsider.com ][/url][/c]
And on this 15th day of September 2011, I continue to enjoy my "Microsoft-free experience". Life is good, Windows not so much...
MS didn't jettison anything. The first website you go that has flash will ask you to download it. A VAST majority will click the button and then you will have flash on the browser.
You missed what was said. On Metro, on tablets, and I assume still with WP 7 and what will come after, on their phones, MS will not support plug-ins, and so no Flash. That doesn't mean that current use precludes it, and they did say that the desktop version will still have plug-ins, as does the desktop version of Safari.
You guys are missing the real story. Now it all makes sense!
Think about it...MS releases Metro, which is a true innovation, unlike some others in the mobile space. MS disses flash for the same reasons Steve Jobs mentioned in his letter, and pushing the same HTML5 solution Steve Jobs did. And as we know from the trolls on this board that the only reason Apple doesnt allow flash is because of Steve Jobs's fantasies. And Steve Jobs RESIGNED from Apple!
Connect the dots, Glenn Beck style. Its obvious Steve Jobs is now running MS!
You missed what was said. On Metro, on tablets, and I assume still with WP 7 and what will come after, on their phones, MS will not support plug-ins, and so no Flash. That doesn't mean that current use precludes it, and they did say that the desktop version will still have plug-ins, as does the desktop version of Safari.
What I have heard about windows 8 is that the desktop version and the mobile versions will be the same, but I must be missing something.
What I have heard about windows 8 is that the desktop version and the mobile versions will be the same, but I must be missing something.
Oh I get it now. This is from PC World
You'll still be able to view content requiring plug-ins in Windows 8, but you'll have to switch to the old fashioned Windows desktop to see it. Users who prefer to remain in the touch-centric, Metro-style interface, however, will have a plug-in free (and presumably Flash-free) experience. Instead, the new touch-centric IE 10 will rely on HTML5 technologies for online video and other functions.
You can still download and use flash, you just have to move to desktop mode temporarily. And move back when it's done.
And of course this is all to do with battery life just like Apple and absolutely nothing to do with keeping customers using their own branded app store instead of the thousands of available free flash games out there. Wink wink
Wow .. seriously. Does M$ really, really need to copy almost everything that Apple does?
In this case, I'd say yes. I can only speak for myself, but I think a lot of Apple users will agree with me that Flash should go the way of the Dodo, not because big Steve told us so, but because it sucks, plain and simple. I've been using Linux and OS X almnost exclusively for the last 15 years, and on these platforms Flash player has always been outright terrible in terms of stability, efficiency and security. On OS X things have improved in the last 2 years, shit-scared as Adobe is about losing even more mindshare among the growing group of Apple users, but it has taken them a decade to take the platform seriously. On Linux, Flash is still a steaming pile of shit, it can't even play full-screen SD video on my HTPC that plays 1080 mkv's without a hitch through XBMC. Not to mention the crashes I get in Chrome once a week or something (at least Chrome recovers gracefully from a plugin crash nowadays, but it goes to show how crappy the Flash player is). All my browsers on all my OS's have had a Flash blocker for years, except my PC at work, and I'm 100% serious if I say I see the Flash plugin crash more often on that machine, than that I unblock any Flash content on my own systems
None of this is even considering how crappy Flash runs on most mobile devices by the way, and how bad the user experience is when you try to interact with Flash content made for desktop browsers (which is almost all Flash content you will find besides the 90% of web ads).
Quote:
Originally Posted by timgriff84
In this case though I do agree. Flash IMO should only ever be used for video
[..]
But the point is that the content is in flash not html5. If everything used a standard video format then it would be fine. But we're now 4 years on from the origional iPhone and I still constantly read articles where the video is in flash.
That's an interesting statement, since personally, I think 'web video' is the only thing that is still keeping Flash alive, even though there is no reason whatsoever for end-users why you would want to have Flash video instead of HTML 5 video. Technically they are exactly the same, virtually all video content served through the Flash plugin is simply H264 inside an FLV container. The 'standard video format' you are talking about is H264, which coincidentally is also what Apple and MS see as the de-facto codec for video, for very good reasons (it's the best codec around, with the best encoders and the best hardware support). No need to wrap it in a Flash container format at all.
you guys are missing the real story. Now it all makes sense!
Think about it...ms releases metro, which is a true innovation, unlike some others in the mobile space. Ms disses flash for the same reasons steve jobs mentioned in his letter, and pushing the same html5 solution steve jobs did. And as we know from the trolls on this board that the only reason apple doesnt allow flash is because of steve jobs's fantasies. And steve jobs resigned from apple!
Connect the dots, glenn beck style. Its obvious steve jobs is now running ms!
Comments
BUILD conference attendees that were yesterday handed tablets and a developer version of Windows 8 confirmed that Flash still does not run in the Internet Explorer 10 browser (see image) that came with the new OS and Samsung tablet.
Some took delight in watching frustrated peers attempt to install Flash onto their tablets.
“Just walked through press room and saw two people trying furiously to install Flash on their Win8 tablets. LOL,” wrote the editor of a series of Windows books, Jon Hassell.
Even a former Australian Microsoftie, Scott Barnes, was disappointed after attempting to revive his daughter’s EEPC with Windows 8.
“I put win8 on my eepc.. was hoping to use that as my 4yr daughters laptop for Penguinclub but..flash dont work...bah!
Flash sort of makes it on Windows 8
So can we expect Shantanu Narayen to issue a point by point refutation of Microsoft's statements?
It sure seems like they repeated some things from Steve Jobs' open letter, which Narayen said were "patently false".
It's too late for that. I think that he doubted that Apple would have done as well as they did, and that Flash would have been a reason for it. But the appearance of the iPad surprised everyone, and the extreme popularity of that put the nail in the coffin of Flash. The fact that we see web sites as a "full" computer does end the idea that the lack of Flash on a small device such as a phone was one thing they could do without from Apple. But the iPad is proving to be a major tide in the computer industry as a whole, and Apple's place in that can't be denied so far. Adobe just had to cave.
Now, we see MS looking at Apple's success without Flash, and has decided to save themselves from the work needed to support it, and their customers the frustration from using it. If it's working for Apple, then they figure it should work for them as well.
And no matter what Adobe may say, few phones use Flash even now. In mobile, Flash is still in the minority on devices that supposedly can manage it. And even the tablets that do have it have problems with it. Surely Adobe reads those articles and reviews. It's just giving them a black eye.
Hopefully those sites that still only push Flash video will also move on to HTML 5 instead shortly. I complain to those few financial sites that still do that, even though a number of those video reports are ironically about iOS, and its success.
Don't get me wrong, Flash saved the internet from falling into the clutches of Windows Media, so we should all be grateful for that, but Flash has run its course. It has been superseded by newer, better tech (HTML 5), and now it's time to move on and embrace industry standards.
The two that annoy me the most would be Engadget and BBC Radio 1. Plus whenever your following a link to a video on a blog or other smaller site, 30 - 40% of the time there in flash.
I agree with you. The BBC do have an iPad app but I really would love for the Beeb to get its act together on its web site.
I do like it when we get statements like this, "we decided not to implement this functionality to benefit our users". Coincidently it also meant we had to do less work.
In this case though I do agree. Flash IMO should only ever be used for video. Microsofts approach of having a metro ie and normal ie also means that when you do get to a video you still have the option to view it, rather than current smartphones and tablets where your just left having to switch to a pc. I wonder if a future option could be to enable plugins per instance of them on a page. E.g. When a page has a flash video you first click to enable flash on that zone and then when you navigate away flash is turned off again. That could help save battery life without limiting the device.
What I don't get though is Adobes had this issue for a while. To me the solution would be to release a browser with flash built in. Might be a bit borderline for getting past the iOS restrictions.
It's really just the opposite. Video should never be run through Flash. It used to be that they needed Flash to get the Ads in the video, and I could understand that. But that doesn't seem to be a real problem any more because I'm seeing Ads being embedded within the video itself. Perhaps that prevents more customized a service, as the Ads can't vary between regions and such. But some things have to give, and HTML 5 is working towards that as well, and Adobe will likely be the one to get it done.
improves battery life as well as security, reliability and privacy for consumers.
You are completely wrong here. Didn't you read the article? MS just said that it won't allow the use of plug-ins for Metro. That means no Flash, and MS is taking the same stand Apple has taken, and it's about time!
I'm willing to bet that if we poll users about Flash heavy web sites, most will say that they would just as well do without it. Most of the Flash games can be written in HTML 5 now as well, though not all yet. As for the most important use of Flash, well, it's Ads, and I doubt that even you would prefer Flash Ads to what we now get on our iPads and iPhones, assuming you have one of them.
The people who want Flash the most other than Adobe, are Flash developers, because they make their money from that. They convince customers that Flash heavy work is best. But it will no longer be, even for notebooks and the desktop as mobile takes over more browsing. If your potential customers can't see your Ads or site from their smartphones and tablets, that's bad, because more often than not, those are the people you want, and need for your customers, because they are the ones spending money on things that they don't necessarily need, but prefer.
Adobe has used Adidas's heavily Flashed site as an example of why Flash is important on tablets. But on every demo I've seen of that on a Flash tablet, it's loaded very slowly, and worked jerkily. This isn't a good Ad for Adidas. When I went to their site on my iPad, it loaded almost instantly. Yes, it didn't have all of the animations, but I could use the site. If you have Flash on your tablet, you're more likely to skip their site and go to another sneaker company because of the problems. That's bad business.
If you are telling them that you don't care if they visit your site, you are telling them that you aren't interested in them as customers, and that's really bad business.
I do like it when we get statements like this, "we decided not to implement this functionality to benefit our users". Coincidently it also meant we had to do less work.
In this case though I do agree. Flash IMO should only ever be used for video. Microsofts approach of having a metro ie and normal ie also means that when you do get to a video you still have the option to view it, rather than current smartphones and tablets where your just left having to switch to a pc. I wonder if a future option could be to enable plugins per instance of them on a page. E.g. When a page has a flash video you first click to enable flash on that zone and then when you navigate away flash is turned off again. That could help save battery life without limiting the device.
What I don't get though is Adobes had this issue for a while. To me the solution would be to release a browser with flash built in. Might be a bit borderline for getting past the iOS restrictions.
I think it's the opposite: If all you're doing is straightforward video, then Flash is the wrong way to go nowadays: Serve it up in HTML5 using H.264 by default, offer a seamless fallback to WebM for those HTML5 devices which for various reasons cannot obtain a license for the H.264 patents. (Actually I don't really care if WebM is used by default with a fallback to H.264 or vice-versa. The exact order of the fallback is irrelevant as long as it's seamless.) But only offer Flash as a last-resort fallback for "legacy" customers who for various reasons absolutely cannot upgrade to an HTML5 browser.
(If a product like Adobe's "Media Server" offers an all-in-one solution that accomplishes all three things automatically without any extra effort from the web developer, then all the better!)
Flash still has a few years more life left in it for certain classes of interactive web applications in areas where the HTML5 standards haven't solidified enough yet to offer a universally accessible ecosystem.
Think about it...MS releases Metro, which is a true innovation, unlike some others in the mobile space. MS disses flash for the same reasons Steve Jobs mentioned in his letter, and pushing the same HTML5 solution Steve Jobs did. And as we know from the trolls on this board that the only reason Apple doesnt allow flash is because of Steve Jobs's fantasies. And Steve Jobs RESIGNED from Apple!
Connect the dots, Glenn Beck style. Its obvious Steve Jobs is now running MS!
The tablet-optimized Metro version of Internet Explorer 10 in Microsoft's upcoming Windows 8 will be a "plug-in free experience," as the company follows Apple's lead in abandoning Adobe Flash in favor of HTML5 on tablets. View this article at AppleInsider.com ][/url][/c]
And on this 15th day of September 2011, I continue to enjoy my "Microsoft-free experience". Life is good, Windows not so much...
I'll second that and add a HEE HAW !!
MS didn't jettison anything. The first website you go that has flash will ask you to download it. A VAST majority will click the button and then you will have flash on the browser.
You missed what was said. On Metro, on tablets, and I assume still with WP 7 and what will come after, on their phones, MS will not support plug-ins, and so no Flash. That doesn't mean that current use precludes it, and they did say that the desktop version will still have plug-ins, as does the desktop version of Safari.
You guys are missing the real story. Now it all makes sense!
Think about it...MS releases Metro, which is a true innovation, unlike some others in the mobile space. MS disses flash for the same reasons Steve Jobs mentioned in his letter, and pushing the same HTML5 solution Steve Jobs did. And as we know from the trolls on this board that the only reason Apple doesnt allow flash is because of Steve Jobs's fantasies. And Steve Jobs RESIGNED from Apple!
Connect the dots, Glenn Beck style. Its obvious Steve Jobs is now running MS!
Very good!
You missed what was said. On Metro, on tablets, and I assume still with WP 7 and what will come after, on their phones, MS will not support plug-ins, and so no Flash. That doesn't mean that current use precludes it, and they did say that the desktop version will still have plug-ins, as does the desktop version of Safari.
What I have heard about windows 8 is that the desktop version and the mobile versions will be the same, but I must be missing something.
What I have heard about windows 8 is that the desktop version and the mobile versions will be the same, but I must be missing something.
Oh I get it now. This is from PC World You can still download and use flash, you just have to move to desktop mode temporarily. And move back when it's done.
I believe this will really put the hurt on flash.
Wow .. seriously. Does M$ really, really need to copy almost everything that Apple does?
In this case, I'd say yes. I can only speak for myself, but I think a lot of Apple users will agree with me that Flash should go the way of the Dodo, not because big Steve told us so, but because it sucks, plain and simple. I've been using Linux and OS X almnost exclusively for the last 15 years, and on these platforms Flash player has always been outright terrible in terms of stability, efficiency and security. On OS X things have improved in the last 2 years, shit-scared as Adobe is about losing even more mindshare among the growing group of Apple users, but it has taken them a decade to take the platform seriously. On Linux, Flash is still a steaming pile of shit, it can't even play full-screen SD video on my HTPC that plays 1080 mkv's without a hitch through XBMC. Not to mention the crashes I get in Chrome once a week or something (at least Chrome recovers gracefully from a plugin crash nowadays, but it goes to show how crappy the Flash player is). All my browsers on all my OS's have had a Flash blocker for years, except my PC at work, and I'm 100% serious if I say I see the Flash plugin crash more often on that machine, than that I unblock any Flash content on my own systems
None of this is even considering how crappy Flash runs on most mobile devices by the way, and how bad the user experience is when you try to interact with Flash content made for desktop browsers (which is almost all Flash content you will find besides the 90% of web ads).
In this case though I do agree. Flash IMO should only ever be used for video
[..]
But the point is that the content is in flash not html5. If everything used a standard video format then it would be fine. But we're now 4 years on from the origional iPhone and I still constantly read articles where the video is in flash.
That's an interesting statement, since personally, I think 'web video' is the only thing that is still keeping Flash alive, even though there is no reason whatsoever for end-users why you would want to have Flash video instead of HTML 5 video. Technically they are exactly the same, virtually all video content served through the Flash plugin is simply H264 inside an FLV container. The 'standard video format' you are talking about is H264, which coincidentally is also what Apple and MS see as the de-facto codec for video, for very good reasons (it's the best codec around, with the best encoders and the best hardware support). No need to wrap it in a Flash container format at all.
you guys are missing the real story. Now it all makes sense!
Think about it...ms releases metro, which is a true innovation, unlike some others in the mobile space. Ms disses flash for the same reasons steve jobs mentioned in his letter, and pushing the same html5 solution steve jobs did. And as we know from the trolls on this board that the only reason apple doesnt allow flash is because of steve jobs's fantasies. And steve jobs resigned from apple!
Connect the dots, glenn beck style. Its obvious steve jobs is now running ms!
oligarhy!!!!!!