Apple would do themselves a great favor by finding a way to get very, very close to the price point of an Amazon Fire
Apple is clueless WRT building low-cost devices. Steve has said so many times. That is why they cannot compete in the low-cost computer segment or the low-cost phone segment.
Windows laptops currently outsell OS X and Google Chrome laptops more than 7 to 1.
Why do you expect the tablet market to be different?
I don't expect anything different in the tablet market from what we see in the PC market and the smartphone market, with Apple eventually becoming a niche player.
The effing ignorance of some people is amazing. This product will impact iPad sales with out a doubt.
95% of iPad users are very simplistic users, browse the web, email and 10-20 apps. The iPad is at least $499.
With this Kindle Fire you can do the same thing basically. If the app is already written for andriod it will run on this. Yes it has fewer apps, no camera, smaller screen etc. For some people that will be a show stopper, however WAY MORE people will jump at this device because it SAVES you at least $300!!!
I too, believe there is a market for this device! I just watched a demo video and it looked pretty good:
If the Kindle Fire gains popularity, there may be a rather interesting side effect (battle) looming.
The Fire is a media device, but has only 8 Gig of SSD (2-3 movies) -- that means it will rely, primarily, on streaming media over WiFi.
This one of the things that Apple's iCloud will offer: Streaming (or buffered download) of media from the cloud. Handy for a 64 GB iPad but -- really useful (almost a requirement) for WiFi devices with smaller local SSD storage.
Conceivably, you could have a large population of iPads and Fires voraciously consuming WiFi bandwidth access to the cloud -- which, ultimately, is the Internet connection bandwidth provided through your IP (Internet Provider).
I wonder what the IPs will do when there is a large hit to their bandwidth due to 10s (or hundreds) of millions of Tablet owners streaming to their devices.
Edit: I could not find any mention of h.264 in the Fire specs -- if true, this would mean the Fire requires larger streams (more bandwidth) to stream (or store) a mvie than a comparable tablet that can stream h.264.
Apple is clueless WRT building low-cost devices. Steve has said so many times. That is why they cannot compete in the low-cost computer segment or the low-cost phone segment.
That is a nonsensical statement. Not one tablet producer can thus far match Apple's price for a similar-sized device; so far, not one MBA-equivalent competitor has been able to match that product's price..... at the profit margins that Apple wants/gets.
Amazon is not fighting for survival. Not even close. Indeed, their stock is doing extremely much better than Apple's over several different time horizons.
Get real.
Amazon is a web store. It has loyal customers including myself, but they are coming second place to iTune and Appstore in many areas of content. Only 5 years ago, they were without rival.
Change the pattern of access to their store by these mobile device, and they are left with just a nice webpage.
Also look at there PE (price vs earnings) ratio of 98. They are in the stratosphere and will be falling to back to earth at an alarming rate, unless they can make it work. They are vulnerable, and they need to sell these tablets hard and fast.
I never understood this line of reasoning, even though it originated with Steve Jobs. A 7" 16:9 display has nearly twice the 4:3 screen area of the iPhone. and more than triple the 16:9 area. Yet somehow the iPhone still works with human fingers.
Is 7" smaller than 10"? Duh. Would the same number of pixels be smaller on the 7" display? Duh. Could you somehow represent a finger-sized target on either size display? Duh.
One of the disadvantages of the 7" form factor is when used in landscape mode for surfing or typing -- there is very little room above the onscreen kb to display a WP document, spreadsheet, web page or web form...
The PlayBook, which has the same format as the Fire, demoed typing a WP document where 4 lines of small text were visible above the KB.
If they were to use, say, a 4:3 vs the 16:9 -- then the kb would be too narrow to type comfortably.
You can always go to portrait mode to gain more screen real estate for the document, but then, the kb is only suitable for 1-finger or thumb typing.
All in all, the iPad form factor does a better job of satisfying most use cases.
Care to guess what the iPad tablet market share will be in December of 2012? I bet its below 50%, but still the biggest....because of this tablet.
Apple has to stay on their toes, no doubt. But a Nook killer does not a iPad killer make.
Tiny size, no app eco-system, low memory ... it just isn't a true competitor, but it is a tablet so sales will be lumped into the tablet column. Won't take the rumble out of Apples juggernaut.
Apple has the ability to launch a similar low power, undersized tablet any time they want to. I suspect that they have a lot of prototypes around and continue to update them. I rather suspect that you'll eventually see more differentiation in iPad sizes, power, etc in the next year or two.
One of the disadvantages of the 7" form factor is when used in landscape mode for surfing or typing -- there is very little room above the onscreen kb to display a WP document, spreadsheet, web page or web form...
The PlayBook, which has the same format as the Fire, demoed typing a WP document where 4 lines of small text were visible above the KB.
If they were to use, say, a 4:3 vs the 16:9 -- then the kb would be too narrow to type comfortably.
You can always go to portrait mode to gain more screen real estate for the document, but then, the kb is only suitable for 1-finger or thumb typing.
All in all, the iPad form factor does a better job of satisfying most use cases.
One of the disadvantage of the 10" size is its size: you cant carry it anywhere without taking up real estate of one of your hands. With the 7", you can free up both hands as the device is pocketable.
I'd rather have a device that I can always carry with me, then have to worry about the portrait or landscape orientation keyboard. Fact, is you can still type, either way.
Just admit it, Amazon released a bombshell.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConradJoe
Apple is rumored to be releasing a new "talk to type" feature on iOS5. Does that portend a 7 inch tablet from apple?
Steve said 7 inch form factor is useless. If he does release a new size, he will be eating his own words. Steve has too much pride for that to happen.
I really hope this competition forces Apple to reconsider the 7" form factor. An iPad Nano or iPad light with 7" screen, no GPS or camera would be great and could really compete in this space. Or if they don't want to make Steve look bad for bashing the 7" form factor they could call it an iPod Touch HD. I would love to have something like this in my house. And with an iTunes library that is now cresting 1 Terabyte in size with ~100 apps in it I really don't want to repurchase apps for a different device.
Bottom line is that competition is good and I really hope Tim steps up to this tablet challenger.
1) The Fire is available on Nov 15, 10 days before Black Friday.
Will the next iPhone ship before these new Kindles? AT&T says my eligible date to avoid the $250 early upgrade fee isn't until mid November so it looks like I'll be waiting until then to buy it.
Don't get me wrong. Android is a great OS. But part of the reason Android sales are overtaking IOS sales are the many different form factors available for it. I REALLY think Apple needs to be in this 7" tablet space. Especially if Apple wants houses with multiple iPads. My wife already hinted that she thinks we should consider getting another iPad. Of course I'm holding out the the doubling of the iPad screen resolution in the iPad3.
Here is what I know, I don't own any form of tablet at this point and I will be buying a Kindle Fire instead of an iPad, assuming that it's as usable as reviews claim it to be. It does what I want from a tablet and while I'd like a bigger screen, it's not worth $300 for one. My co-workers own iPads and iPad2s and while they claim to love them, they don't seem to be doing anything with them that warrents the price and struggle to find new things to do on them. 'Great, you can access your work laptop from your iPad, what real sustaintable value does that bring". The iPad is a better product but is priced to high and up until now there hasn't been a alternative.
This is a device that will live at home, or on vacation but not something I will carry around an a daily basis (which is ironic given it's smaller size). This will fill the gap that an iPad would while saving me $300.
Also, I'm already an Amazon Prime member for the shipping and streaming of video's (mostly childrens shows) to my TV and smartphone (in a pinch) so thats a great bonus. Also, I love that I don't have to have a computer to make this fully work. Between my phone and this I should be able to operate entirely in the cloud. Amazon has an app store with all the primary apps needed, it will be great for my two young kids and for me to site in bed at night in read or watch a video.
I am not going to start comparing the iPad to the Fire but simply say well done to a company that appears to have taken it's time and not jumped on the band wagon without thinking first and coming up with a few products that look worthwhile in their own right. Competition is healthy for everyone and Amazon appear to be one of the few that are properly competing rather than copying. Who knows their might be room in our lives for one of each of these products!?
I have to agree, amazon did really well here. And I think some things that should be obvious are being missed in the "anything but Apple" moron postings.
First, this is a first attempt, and they claim a larger more powerful version is coming. I suspect that is true. Amazon, it turns out is smarter than HP, MS, etc. For all the "iPad is a toy" comments you hear from time to time on these forums, it has a very real chance to change computing. Amazon wants in.
Their strength is in content. And past kindle book sales. Not kindles, books. Just like my iTunes purchases makes sure I will always consider an Apple product first, Amazon has a built in market just because they own books from Amazon already. Now I have to choose between an iPad which is larger, more powerful and costs more, and has my old music and movies and the "Fire" which is cheaper, smaller, slower and has my old books.
If the future version has some office style apps or online (alla google docs) office, I have a good reason to buy an iPad, and a good reason to buy a Fire. What I don't have is reason to buy a laptop or another tablet.
Amazon has just put a nail in the coffin of all other tablet manufacturers, made almost no difference to Apple at all, and helped shift sales from traditional computers to tablets. Apple will most likely keep selling iPads as fast as they can make them, but their market share may well go down, not from lost sales but from an expanded market. That may even help Apple. It certainly helps Amazon.
It only hurts RIM, Samsung, HP, MS, and on and on and on. Very well played by Amazon.
If they are really smart, they keep the iPad app to encourage book sales and create their own halo, and make some sort of online document creation part of their cloud. And make an iPad app for that too. If they did all that I know my house would own both a Fire (or whatever the larger one will be called) and an iPad. And keeping the e-ink kindle cements it.
Just no need for a computer anymore. Maybe a seldom used desktop to back everything up to. Or maybe the cloud will make that all obsolete.
It's hard to compete in the 'completely pointless' market.
So then you WOULDN'T be buying this mythical 7" device, then? Because you'd be rebuying apps for it and it alone.
Correct. No "Fire" for me. I'm already happily entrenched in the double rainbow of happiness that is iTunes. And I don't want to re-train my wife to use another OS. But watching my 4 year old son repeatedly drop my $600 iPad (thank you Otter Box iPad case) I can see where a smaller, lighter & cheaper iPad would come in handy. And has anyone else dropped an iPad on your face while falling asleep in bed watching TV? It hurts!
Comments
Apple would do themselves a great favor by finding a way to get very, very close to the price point of an Amazon Fire
Apple is clueless WRT building low-cost devices. Steve has said so many times. That is why they cannot compete in the low-cost computer segment or the low-cost phone segment.
Windows laptops currently outsell OS X and Google Chrome laptops more than 7 to 1.
Why do you expect the tablet market to be different?
I don't expect anything different in the tablet market from what we see in the PC market and the smartphone market, with Apple eventually becoming a niche player.
The effing ignorance of some people is amazing. This product will impact iPad sales with out a doubt.
95% of iPad users are very simplistic users, browse the web, email and 10-20 apps. The iPad is at least $499.
With this Kindle Fire you can do the same thing basically. If the app is already written for andriod it will run on this. Yes it has fewer apps, no camera, smaller screen etc. For some people that will be a show stopper, however WAY MORE people will jump at this device because it SAVES you at least $300!!!
I too, believe there is a market for this device! I just watched a demo video and it looked pretty good:
Amazon Kindle Fire impressions
If the Kindle Fire gains popularity, there may be a rather interesting side effect (battle) looming.
The Fire is a media device, but has only 8 Gig of SSD (2-3 movies) -- that means it will rely, primarily, on streaming media over WiFi.
This one of the things that Apple's iCloud will offer: Streaming (or buffered download) of media from the cloud. Handy for a 64 GB iPad but -- really useful (almost a requirement) for WiFi devices with smaller local SSD storage.
Conceivably, you could have a large population of iPads and Fires voraciously consuming WiFi bandwidth access to the cloud -- which, ultimately, is the Internet connection bandwidth provided through your IP (Internet Provider).
I wonder what the IPs will do when there is a large hit to their bandwidth due to 10s (or hundreds) of millions of Tablet owners streaming to their devices.
Edit: I could not find any mention of h.264 in the Fire specs -- if true, this would mean the Fire requires larger streams (more bandwidth) to stream (or store) a mvie than a comparable tablet that can stream h.264.
Apple is clueless WRT building low-cost devices. Steve has said so many times. That is why they cannot compete in the low-cost computer segment or the low-cost phone segment.
That is a nonsensical statement. Not one tablet producer can thus far match Apple's price for a similar-sized device; so far, not one MBA-equivalent competitor has been able to match that product's price..... at the profit margins that Apple wants/gets.
Get real.
Amazon is a web store. It has loyal customers including myself, but they are coming second place to iTune and Appstore in many areas of content. Only 5 years ago, they were without rival.
Change the pattern of access to their store by these mobile device, and they are left with just a nice webpage.
Also look at there PE (price vs earnings) ratio of 98. They are in the stratosphere and will be falling to back to earth at an alarming rate, unless they can make it work. They are vulnerable, and they need to sell these tablets hard and fast.
I like what I see.
I was, let us say, skeptical, but after seeing the demo, now I am absolutely convinced that not only does Amazon have a MONSTER hit on it's hands,
but finally there is a "Other Tablet" out there for people to buy -- a Mac to iPad's PC, if you will.
Well done, Jeff!
I never understood this line of reasoning, even though it originated with Steve Jobs. A 7" 16:9 display has nearly twice the 4:3 screen area of the iPhone. and more than triple the 16:9 area. Yet somehow the iPhone still works with human fingers.
Is 7" smaller than 10"? Duh. Would the same number of pixels be smaller on the 7" display? Duh. Could you somehow represent a finger-sized target on either size display? Duh.
One of the disadvantages of the 7" form factor is when used in landscape mode for surfing or typing -- there is very little room above the onscreen kb to display a WP document, spreadsheet, web page or web form...
The PlayBook, which has the same format as the Fire, demoed typing a WP document where 4 lines of small text were visible above the KB.
If they were to use, say, a 4:3 vs the 16:9 -- then the kb would be too narrow to type comfortably.
You can always go to portrait mode to gain more screen real estate for the document, but then, the kb is only suitable for 1-finger or thumb typing.
All in all, the iPad form factor does a better job of satisfying most use cases.
Care to guess what the iPad tablet market share will be in December of 2012? I bet its below 50%, but still the biggest....because of this tablet.
Apple has to stay on their toes, no doubt. But a Nook killer does not a iPad killer make.
Tiny size, no app eco-system, low memory ... it just isn't a true competitor, but it is a tablet so sales will be lumped into the tablet column. Won't take the rumble out of Apples juggernaut.
Apple has the ability to launch a similar low power, undersized tablet any time they want to. I suspect that they have a lot of prototypes around and continue to update them. I rather suspect that you'll eventually see more differentiation in iPad sizes, power, etc in the next year or two.
You can always go to portrait mode to gain more screen real estate for the document, but then, the kb is only suitable for 1-finger or thumb typing.
All in all, the iPad form factor does a better job of satisfying most use cases.
Apple is rumored to be releasing a new "talk to type" feature on iOS5. Does that portend a 7 inch tablet from apple?
One of the disadvantages of the 7" form factor is when used in landscape mode for surfing or typing -- there is very little room above the onscreen kb to display a WP document, spreadsheet, web page or web form...
The PlayBook, which has the same format as the Fire, demoed typing a WP document where 4 lines of small text were visible above the KB.
If they were to use, say, a 4:3 vs the 16:9 -- then the kb would be too narrow to type comfortably.
You can always go to portrait mode to gain more screen real estate for the document, but then, the kb is only suitable for 1-finger or thumb typing.
All in all, the iPad form factor does a better job of satisfying most use cases.
One of the disadvantage of the 10" size is its size: you cant carry it anywhere without taking up real estate of one of your hands. With the 7", you can free up both hands as the device is pocketable.
I'd rather have a device that I can always carry with me, then have to worry about the portrait or landscape orientation keyboard. Fact, is you can still type, either way.
Just admit it, Amazon released a bombshell.
Apple is rumored to be releasing a new "talk to type" feature on iOS5. Does that portend a 7 inch tablet from apple?
Steve said 7 inch form factor is useless. If he does release a new size, he will be eating his own words. Steve has too much pride for that to happen.
Bottom line is that competition is good and I really hope Tim steps up to this tablet challenger.
1) The Fire is available on Nov 15, 10 days before Black Friday.
2) I read that the initial order is for 3 million Fires through December
3) The Fire has an estimated parts cost of $185 (very low margin)
4) Apparently, Amazon intends to offset the Fire's low/no margin by selling higher-margin content and services
5) The only seller of the Fire will be the Amazon online store -- no channel to stuff
6) There will be no 3rd-party resellers -- no place for a customer to go and "try before you buy"
7) Likely, Amazon"s top sellers will include all flavors of Kindle tablet and eReaders (and there will be a server overload)...
8) There will be no way to determine the Fire's sell-through -- except anecdotally
9) It will be interesting to see if Amazon can sell 3 million Fires in 45 days
10) If they do, what does that tell us about all of the above points?
This will be interesting to watch and learn:
1) The Fire is available on Nov 15, 10 days before Black Friday.
Will the next iPhone ship before these new Kindles? AT&T says my eligible date to avoid the $250 early upgrade fee isn't until mid November so it looks like I'll be waiting until then to buy it.
With the 7", you can free up both hands as the device is pocketable.
Just admit it, Amazon released a bombshell.
Okay. But they forgot the warhead.
An iPad Nano or iPad light with 7" screen, no GPS or camera would be great and could really compete in this space.
It's hard to compete in the 'completely pointless' market.
I really don't want to repurchase apps for a different device.
So then you WOULDN'T be buying this mythical 7" device, then? Because you'd be rebuying apps for it and it alone.
This is a device that will live at home, or on vacation but not something I will carry around an a daily basis (which is ironic given it's smaller size). This will fill the gap that an iPad would while saving me $300.
Also, I'm already an Amazon Prime member for the shipping and streaming of video's (mostly childrens shows) to my TV and smartphone (in a pinch) so thats a great bonus. Also, I love that I don't have to have a computer to make this fully work. Between my phone and this I should be able to operate entirely in the cloud. Amazon has an app store with all the primary apps needed, it will be great for my two young kids and for me to site in bed at night in read or watch a video.
I am not going to start comparing the iPad to the Fire but simply say well done to a company that appears to have taken it's time and not jumped on the band wagon without thinking first and coming up with a few products that look worthwhile in their own right. Competition is healthy for everyone and Amazon appear to be one of the few that are properly competing rather than copying. Who knows their might be room in our lives for one of each of these products!?
I have to agree, amazon did really well here. And I think some things that should be obvious are being missed in the "anything but Apple" moron postings.
First, this is a first attempt, and they claim a larger more powerful version is coming. I suspect that is true. Amazon, it turns out is smarter than HP, MS, etc. For all the "iPad is a toy" comments you hear from time to time on these forums, it has a very real chance to change computing. Amazon wants in.
Their strength is in content. And past kindle book sales. Not kindles, books. Just like my iTunes purchases makes sure I will always consider an Apple product first, Amazon has a built in market just because they own books from Amazon already. Now I have to choose between an iPad which is larger, more powerful and costs more, and has my old music and movies and the "Fire" which is cheaper, smaller, slower and has my old books.
If the future version has some office style apps or online (alla google docs) office, I have a good reason to buy an iPad, and a good reason to buy a Fire. What I don't have is reason to buy a laptop or another tablet.
Amazon has just put a nail in the coffin of all other tablet manufacturers, made almost no difference to Apple at all, and helped shift sales from traditional computers to tablets. Apple will most likely keep selling iPads as fast as they can make them, but their market share may well go down, not from lost sales but from an expanded market. That may even help Apple. It certainly helps Amazon.
It only hurts RIM, Samsung, HP, MS, and on and on and on. Very well played by Amazon.
If they are really smart, they keep the iPad app to encourage book sales and create their own halo, and make some sort of online document creation part of their cloud. And make an iPad app for that too. If they did all that I know my house would own both a Fire (or whatever the larger one will be called) and an iPad. And keeping the e-ink kindle cements it.
Just no need for a computer anymore. Maybe a seldom used desktop to back everything up to. Or maybe the cloud will make that all obsolete.
...very well played Amazon.
i GUARANTEE this thing will got straight to the top of Amazon's BOGUS best seller lists.
Hmm, I notice that Amazon apparently doesn't sell the iPad, Apple isn't even mentioned on their tablets page.
Try iPad, try Apple Store. Amazon sells a ton of them, always have.
Okay. But they forgot the warhead.
It's hard to compete in the 'completely pointless' market.
So then you WOULDN'T be buying this mythical 7" device, then? Because you'd be rebuying apps for it and it alone.
Correct. No "Fire" for me. I'm already happily entrenched in the double rainbow of happiness that is iTunes. And I don't want to re-train my wife to use another OS. But watching my 4 year old son repeatedly drop my $600 iPad (thank you Otter Box iPad case) I can see where a smaller, lighter & cheaper iPad would come in handy. And has anyone else dropped an iPad on your face while falling asleep in bed watching TV? It hurts!