On a totally separate topic....If the new phone will be marketed as a 4G, makes the Oct. 4th date and the 4 icons on the invite make more sense... Seemed strange to me that there was such an emphasis on FOUR for the iPhone 5 (iOS maybe released the next day but the phone will likely take weeks). If this rumor is true and if Apple chooses to highlight this feature, four could actually be the big hint.
I'd prefer to keep the 4G specification at 1000Mbps.
The American carriers only care about marketing slogans. I don't trust that they really care about improving their service.
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism
Why do you guys have to recite this stuff as if it's fact? Since when are all technical acronyms have to be validated through the ITU-T?. There is no Abbreviation Consortium or FCC-esque commission that is makes HSPA+ '4G' and LTE '4G' any less '4G' to describe a generational change.
Sent from my '4G' iPhone aka iPhone 4.
PS: The ITU-R's definition of '4G' is much more than what I assume is your definition of 100Mb/s downstream. It's complex, covering many points, and has changed many times of the years, and likely to change again.
The ITU-R's definition of '4G' is much more than what I assume is your definition of 100Mb/s downstream. It's complex, covering many points, and has changed many times of the years, and likely to change again.
It's a number followed by a single letter abbreviation. It's not a technical definition. It's colloquial, it's informal. It's not copyrighted. It's not trademarked. It's a number followed by a single letter abbreviation.
you're going to confuse the hell out of 90+% of consumers if you start marketing it as HSPA+ @ 21 mbps. Anyone [you and I] that's interested in true speed will look it up in the tech specs.
You are wrong. The original poster had it correct. 4G is more a marketing term. There is no one formal set of specifications that define it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stelligent
While 3G and 4G have been usurped by carriers' marketing tactics, they are in fact formal technical specifications. If you don't care about formal specifications, fine. Don't say they don't exist just because you are intransigent.
Apple's fifth-generation iPhone will feature support for fast HSPA+ 21Mbps network speeds, sometimes advertised as "4G," carrier China Unicom has revealed.
....
Included in the slide is a blank spot for Apple's so-called "iPhone 5.... No photo or details on the iPhone 5 are provided, except for a mention that it will access HSPA+ networks, which have theoretical maximum download speeds of 21Mbps.
That compares to the 7.2Mbps maximum theoretical speed the WCDMA radio has provided in the iPhone 4, iPhone 3GS and iPhone 3G. The first-generation iPhone featured EDGE data connections for 480Kbps.
In the U.S., AT&T and T-Mobile have their own HSPA+ networks which the carriers advertise as having "4G" speeds...
Rumors have maintained that this year's iPhone upgrade will not feature a true 4G LTE radio. The China Unicom slide does indicate, however, that the next iPhone will feature an improved modem.
Neither LTE nor HSPA+ is 4G. So no one has it. Relax.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody
LTE is 4G.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichyS
Ah, beat me to it.
LTE Advance is the first '4G' technology according to the ITU's definition (which is, IIRC, packet switched and offering speeds in excess of 100Mbps).
Quote:
Originally Posted by cvaldes1831
The vast majority of the world has well-deployed HSPA+ networks, some in their third- and fourth-generation. These would really be classed as 3.5G networks, however the ITU partially caved in to the carriers' marketing departments and started calling early generation LTE as well as HSPA+ as "4G" despite neither network can support the 1Gbps download links that official 4G certification requires.
Hence, this isn't really an iPhone 5 built for China's "4G". It's really a iPhone 5 for the world's "4G" with the exception of a handful of CDMA-based networks.
"In telecommunications, 4G is the fourth generation of cellular wireless standards. It is a successor to the 3G and 2G families of standards. In 2009, the ITU-R organization specified the IMT-Advanced (International Mobile Telecommunications Advanced) requirements for 4G standards, setting peak speed requirements for 4G service at 100 Mbit/s for high mobility communication (such as from trains and cars) and 1 Gbit/s for low mobility communication (such as pedestrians and stationary users).[1]
A 4G system is expected to provide a comprehensive and secure all-IP based mobile broadband solution to laptop computer wireless modems, smartphones, and other mobile devices. Facilities such as ultra-broadband Internet access, IP telephony, gaming services, and streamed multimedia may be provided to users.
4G technologies such as mobile WiMAX and first-release Long term evolution (LTE) have been on the market since 2006[2] and 2009[3][4][5] respectively. The ITU announced in December 2010 that WiMax, LTE, and HSPA+ are 4G technologies.[6]
IMT-Advanced compliant versions of the above two standards are under development and called ?LTE Advanced? and ?WirelessMAN-Advanced? respectively. ITU has decided that ?LTE Advanced? and ?WirelessMAN-Advanced? should be accorded the official designation of IMT-Advanced.
On December 6, 2010, ITU announced that current versions of LTE, WiMax and other evolved 3G technologies that do not fulfill "IMT-Advanced" requirements could be considered "4G", provided they represent forerunners to IMT-Advanced and "a substantial level of improvement in performance and capabilities with respect to the initial third generation systems now deployed."[7]"
By the same token, discriminating between standards body organizations and marketing materials, none of the current 3G phones ever exactly met the ITU 3G spec either.
Is the iP5 (bigger screen, sp-to-txt, etc) going to be announced on the 4th, or not???..........your thoughts??? thx
Here are my thoughts.
Yes, the fifth-generation iPhone will be introduced on October 4.
Saying which features will be included in the handset is pure speculation. 98% of Apple rumors posted to tech media sites end up being wrong. If you put all of them in one big pot, you'd have a big mess of conflicting stories.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacRulez
Which brings us back to Apple: will they adopt a quasi-"4G" system and call it "4G", or risk appearing behind the time waiting for some "real" 4G?
They will probably say something like "the new iPhone provides 4G speeds on networks that support it. Please contact your carrier for specifics."
It's not like Apple is going to apologize for a specific carrier's shortcomings. Remember, Apple considers mobile operators to be dumb pipes, nothing more.
Yes, the fifth-generation iPhone will be introduced on October 4.
Saying which features will be included in the handset is pure speculation. 98% of Apple rumors posted to tech media sites end up being wrong. If you put all of them in one big pot, you'd have a big mess of conflicting stories.
They will probably say something like "the new iPhone provides 4G speeds on networks that support it. Please contact your carrier for specifics."
It's not like Apple is going to apologize for a specific carrier's shortcomings. Remember, Apple considers mobile operators to be dumb pipes, nothing more.
Yup. its the easiest thing Apple or really any company can do to avoid the confusing mess. this product is able to support X, Y and Z but it dependent on your carrier/region.
I remember facetime was not supported in the middle east or something. Not sure if its supported now but it was an issue then.
Yup. its the easiest thing Apple or really any company can do to avoid the confusing mess. this product is able to support X, Y and Z but it dependent on your carrier/region.
I remember facetime was not supported in the middle east or something. Not sure if its supported now but it was an issue then.
It's the same thing with Visual Voicemail: not every carrier supports it.
"Some features, applications, and services are not available in all areas. See your carrier for details. Application availability and pricing are subject to change."
4G speeds via HSPA+ would fall under this blanket disclaimer.
At the risk of appearing to equivocate, I think you're both right: there is a standard for what 4G is supposed to be, but very few people selling systems labeled "4G" actually use it, rendering such definitions meaningless for consumer decisions.
Which brings us back to Apple: will they adopt a quasi-"4G" system and call it "4G", or risk appearing behind the time waiting for some "real" 4G?
At the risk of bringing you back from the brink of appearance of equivocation, the existence of a standard is a fact that cannot be contradicted by the lack of awareness amongst the general public.
At the risk of bringing you back from the brink of appearance of equivocation, the existence of a standard is a fact that cannot be contradicted by the lack of awareness amongst the general public.
So, I'd still like to see a link or citation for the source of the formal specification of 4G, as opposed to the ITU's IMT-Advanced recommendation for marketing 4G. Or even just who you believe defined the specification for 4G.
It is more of a source then anybody else has provided, including yourself.
With that said, you can do a simple Internet search and find lots of sources. Being already familiar with the topic, I took the first result that summarized the issue nicely.
I suppose your entitled to ignorance, but there is not a set standard for 4G. Provide us some of your research from what you'd be considered to be a reputable authority. I notice you didn't point us in the right direction. If I am so wrong, it should be easy to educate us. I know it is hard to actually attempt to find the truth.
The reality is the standard is evolving, with more then one proposed set of standards being considered. So, it is correct to say 4G is more of a marketing term in that you can have different sets of specifications that can be labeled 4G as there is not one unified standard yet. So the original commentator who said people should be less concerned with the term 4G and more concerned with real world performance is correct.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stelligent
A link to such an authoritative source ... I must rethink this now
Hard to justify a switch to Sprint even if they offer unlimited....slower and no data/voice multitasking.
No I think this is what the 1 stands for on the phone icon of the Oct 4th invite. 1 phone to rule them all... CDMA, HSPA+ and possibly some tweak for China Mobile. But definitely CDMA and GSM-HSPA+ ... Which is all 3G technology FFS! Only Wimax, LTE and so on should be called 4G. Marketeers and anyone can believe in whatever they want, if you get 10mbps on your iPhone5 good for you. Who here gets anything more than 2mbps downlink consistently on their iPhone4 anyways? A minority around the world, I'm assuming... And certainly only in certain parts of the US.
Comments
On a totally separate topic....If the new phone will be marketed as a 4G, makes the Oct. 4th date and the 4 icons on the invite make more sense... Seemed strange to me that there was such an emphasis on FOUR for the iPhone 5 (iOS maybe released the next day but the phone will likely take weeks). If this rumor is true and if Apple chooses to highlight this feature, four could actually be the big hint.
The new phone maybe named iPhone 4G
(let the angry debating continue!)
The American carriers only care about marketing slogans. I don't trust that they really care about improving their service.
Why do you guys have to recite this stuff as if it's fact? Since when are all technical acronyms have to be validated through the ITU-T?. There is no Abbreviation Consortium or FCC-esque commission that is makes HSPA+ '4G' and LTE '4G' any less '4G' to describe a generational change.
Sent from my '4G' iPhone aka iPhone 4.
PS: The ITU-R's definition of '4G' is much more than what I assume is your definition of 100Mb/s downstream. It's complex, covering many points, and has changed many times of the years, and likely to change again.
The new phone maybe named iPhone 4G
(let the angry debating continue!)
If the iPhone is refreshed for Verizon and includes LTE then I think Apple calling it the iPhone 4G makes the most sense.
The ITU-R's definition of '4G' is much more than what I assume is your definition of 100Mb/s downstream. It's complex, covering many points, and has changed many times of the years, and likely to change again.
The last time it changed (December 2010), the ITU included HSPA+, LTE, and WiMAX in their classification of '4G'.
If the fifth-generation handset has HSPA+, Apple can legitimately call it 4G.
It's a number followed by a single letter abbreviation. It's not a technical definition. It's colloquial, it's informal. It's not copyrighted. It's not trademarked. It's a number followed by a single letter abbreviation.
PS: The next iPhone will be 5G.
Spot on.
Let's move along.....
this is what the public sees.
you're going to confuse the hell out of 90+% of consumers if you start marketing it as HSPA+ @ 21 mbps. Anyone [you and I] that's interested in true speed will look it up in the tech specs.
While 3G and 4G have been usurped by carriers' marketing tactics, they are in fact formal technical specifications. If you don't care about formal specifications, fine. Don't say they don't exist just because you are intransigent.
Is the iP5 (bigger screen, sp-to-txt, etc) going to be announced on the 4th, or not???..........your thoughts??? thx
It should be pointed out that LTE is not true 4G.
Apple's fifth-generation iPhone will feature support for fast HSPA+ 21Mbps network speeds, sometimes advertised as "4G," carrier China Unicom has revealed.
....
Included in the slide is a blank spot for Apple's so-called "iPhone 5.... No photo or details on the iPhone 5 are provided, except for a mention that it will access HSPA+ networks, which have theoretical maximum download speeds of 21Mbps.
That compares to the 7.2Mbps maximum theoretical speed the WCDMA radio has provided in the iPhone 4, iPhone 3GS and iPhone 3G. The first-generation iPhone featured EDGE data connections for 480Kbps.
In the U.S., AT&T and T-Mobile have their own HSPA+ networks which the carriers advertise as having "4G" speeds...
Rumors have maintained that this year's iPhone upgrade will not feature a true 4G LTE radio. The China Unicom slide does indicate, however, that the next iPhone will feature an improved modem.
[ View this article at AppleInsider.com ]
Neither LTE nor HSPA+ is 4G. So no one has it. Relax.
LTE is 4G.
Ah, beat me to it.
LTE Advance is the first '4G' technology according to the ITU's definition (which is, IIRC, packet switched and offering speeds in excess of 100Mbps).
The vast majority of the world has well-deployed HSPA+ networks, some in their third- and fourth-generation. These would really be classed as 3.5G networks, however the ITU partially caved in to the carriers' marketing departments and started calling early generation LTE as well as HSPA+ as "4G" despite neither network can support the 1Gbps download links that official 4G certification requires.
Hence, this isn't really an iPhone 5 built for China's "4G". It's really a iPhone 5 for the world's "4G" with the exception of a handful of CDMA-based networks.
A little clarification seems in order [Emphasis supplied]....
"In telecommunications, 4G is the fourth generation of cellular wireless standards. It is a successor to the 3G and 2G families of standards. In 2009, the ITU-R organization specified the IMT-Advanced (International Mobile Telecommunications Advanced) requirements for 4G standards, setting peak speed requirements for 4G service at 100 Mbit/s for high mobility communication (such as from trains and cars) and 1 Gbit/s for low mobility communication (such as pedestrians and stationary users).[1]
A 4G system is expected to provide a comprehensive and secure all-IP based mobile broadband solution to laptop computer wireless modems, smartphones, and other mobile devices. Facilities such as ultra-broadband Internet access, IP telephony, gaming services, and streamed multimedia may be provided to users.
4G technologies such as mobile WiMAX and first-release Long term evolution (LTE) have been on the market since 2006[2] and 2009[3][4][5] respectively. The ITU announced in December 2010 that WiMax, LTE, and HSPA+ are 4G technologies.[6]
IMT-Advanced compliant versions of the above two standards are under development and called ?LTE Advanced? and ?WirelessMAN-Advanced? respectively. ITU has decided that ?LTE Advanced? and ?WirelessMAN-Advanced? should be accorded the official designation of IMT-Advanced.
On December 6, 2010, ITU announced that current versions of LTE, WiMax and other evolved 3G technologies that do not fulfill "IMT-Advanced" requirements could be considered "4G", provided they represent forerunners to IMT-Advanced and "a substantial level of improvement in performance and capabilities with respect to the initial third generation systems now deployed."[7]"
By the same token, discriminating between standards body organizations and marketing materials, none of the current 3G phones ever exactly met the ITU 3G spec either.
ok ok ok.........
Is the iP5 (bigger screen, sp-to-txt, etc) going to be announced on the 4th, or not???..........your thoughts??? thx
Here are my thoughts.
Yes, the fifth-generation iPhone will be introduced on October 4.
Saying which features will be included in the handset is pure speculation. 98% of Apple rumors posted to tech media sites end up being wrong. If you put all of them in one big pot, you'd have a big mess of conflicting stories.
Which brings us back to Apple: will they adopt a quasi-"4G" system and call it "4G", or risk appearing behind the time waiting for some "real" 4G?
They will probably say something like "the new iPhone provides 4G speeds on networks that support it. Please contact your carrier for specifics."
It's not like Apple is going to apologize for a specific carrier's shortcomings. Remember, Apple considers mobile operators to be dumb pipes, nothing more.
Here are my thoughts.
Yes, the fifth-generation iPhone will be introduced on October 4.
Saying which features will be included in the handset is pure speculation. 98% of Apple rumors posted to tech media sites end up being wrong. If you put all of them in one big pot, you'd have a big mess of conflicting stories.
They will probably say something like "the new iPhone provides 4G speeds on networks that support it. Please contact your carrier for specifics."
It's not like Apple is going to apologize for a specific carrier's shortcomings. Remember, Apple considers mobile operators to be dumb pipes, nothing more.
Yup. its the easiest thing Apple or really any company can do to avoid the confusing mess. this product is able to support X, Y and Z but it dependent on your carrier/region.
I remember facetime was not supported in the middle east or something. Not sure if its supported now but it was an issue then.
Yup. its the easiest thing Apple or really any company can do to avoid the confusing mess. this product is able to support X, Y and Z but it dependent on your carrier/region.
I remember facetime was not supported in the middle east or something. Not sure if its supported now but it was an issue then.
It's the same thing with Visual Voicemail: not every carrier supports it.
At the bottom of the iPhone's Features page is this disclaimer:
"Some features, applications, and services are not available in all areas. See your carrier for details. Application availability and pricing are subject to change."
4G speeds via HSPA+ would fall under this blanket disclaimer.
You are wrong. The original poster had it correct. 4G is more a marketing term. There is no one formal set of specifications that define it.
A link to such an authoritative source ... I must rethink this now
At the risk of appearing to equivocate, I think you're both right: there is a standard for what 4G is supposed to be, but very few people selling systems labeled "4G" actually use it, rendering such definitions meaningless for consumer decisions.
Which brings us back to Apple: will they adopt a quasi-"4G" system and call it "4G", or risk appearing behind the time waiting for some "real" 4G?
At the risk of bringing you back from the brink of appearance of equivocation, the existence of a standard is a fact that cannot be contradicted by the lack of awareness amongst the general public.
At the risk of bringing you back from the brink of appearance of equivocation, the existence of a standard is a fact that cannot be contradicted by the lack of awareness amongst the general public.
So, I'd still like to see a link or citation for the source of the formal specification of 4G, as opposed to the ITU's IMT-Advanced recommendation for marketing 4G. Or even just who you believe defined the specification for 4G.
Which brings us back to Apple: will they adopt a quasi-"4G" system and call it "4G", or risk appearing behind the time waiting for some "real" 4G?
Apple will use words in whatever manner is optimal for raking in the profits.
With that said, you can do a simple Internet search and find lots of sources. Being already familiar with the topic, I took the first result that summarized the issue nicely.
I suppose your entitled to ignorance, but there is not a set standard for 4G. Provide us some of your research from what you'd be considered to be a reputable authority. I notice you didn't point us in the right direction. If I am so wrong, it should be easy to educate us. I know it is hard to actually attempt to find the truth.
The reality is the standard is evolving, with more then one proposed set of standards being considered. So, it is correct to say 4G is more of a marketing term in that you can have different sets of specifications that can be labeled 4G as there is not one unified standard yet. So the original commentator who said people should be less concerned with the term 4G and more concerned with real world performance is correct.
A link to such an authoritative source ... I must rethink this now
So, will Apple market 2 different iPhones?
3G-CDMA: Sprint, Verizon, 3 mbs
4G-HSPA+: AT&T, 21 mbs
Hard to justify a switch to Sprint even if they offer unlimited....slower and no data/voice multitasking.
No I think this is what the 1 stands for on the phone icon of the Oct 4th invite. 1 phone to rule them all... CDMA, HSPA+ and possibly some tweak for China Mobile. But definitely CDMA and GSM-HSPA+ ... Which is all 3G technology FFS! Only Wimax, LTE and so on should be called 4G. Marketeers and anyone can believe in whatever they want, if you get 10mbps on your iPhone5 good for you. Who here gets anything more than 2mbps downlink consistently on their iPhone4 anyways? A minority around the world, I'm assuming... And certainly only in certain parts of the US.