If disagreeing with something Apple does is trolling... ok. I would counter that point by saying that defending anything Apple does is also trolling. (or reverse trolling?)
I love Apple- I've had Macs, iPads, iPods, and iPhones for the last 7 years depending on what came out when. But I am just pointing out that everything came out late- and it has since Lion.
Lion came late because they were working on iOS4. Now the excuse (from the defenders) is that iPhone 4S came late because of iCloud/iOS 5/Lion. And that's a valid excuse- and I believe that's what it is. But I do not like this trend (because it happened with Lion and now iOS5) that I'm seeing with Apple.
Proof:
I won't use Leopard/iphone 1 as an example (because it was the first iPhone model)- but Snow Leopard, iOS 3, and the iPhone 3GS all came out within 2 months of each other. 3GS wasn't delayed, nor was Snow Leopard- and the 3GS came out right on time and there was- this is important- no criticism.
Now, we throw iCloud into the mix. Ok- but when we are talking about APPLE- not Microsoft, Google, Amazon- Apple- they need to deliver because that's what they have done in the past. They have always delivered.
Say what you want- call me a troll, whatever. The fact remains that this is the first heavily scrutinized iPhone. Comedians are making fun of it on late night shows, etc. I'm going to buy it- but for everyone to dismiss everything anyone says and calls them "stupid" "trolls" "idiots" shines the light on all of you. You guys are the a-holes who think you know everything. And just because someone doesn't agree with you- they are wrong. Guess what- both can be right.
Typical "tough guys" behind a keyboard that wouldn't ever say that stuff or be such huge arrogant jerks to people in real life. Or maybe you are. Who cares?
"The fact remains that this is the first heavily scrutinized iPhone" - Back up this statement with some kind of evidence.
"the 3GS came out right on time and there was- this is important- no criticism." - Back up this statement with some kind of evidence.
You claim this iPhone is 'late'. I disagree. Remember that since the last iPhone came out, the single biggest customer complaint was addressed with a release of a new iPhone for Verizon. Apple has consistently said that this fall is when the new version would come out. Claiming that they're late because they didn't hit the mid-summer release of previous years is incorrect. This 18 month gap was filled with the release of the Verizon iPhone, Lion, the release of new MacBook Airs, the iPad 2, and the new Apple TV. Apple releases solid products that deliver on their promises and uphold the Apple brand, not on the assumptions of the market. You can call it 'late', but I'm pretty sure that the sales results will be evidence that it was released right on time.
That's speculation. There is no reason hardware and software upgrades have to be synced. the CDMA iPhone wasn't for instance. If iOS 5 took 16 months then iOS 6 might take 16 months, or 24. Do we wait that long?
I heard this argument in the mid-90s: Software and hardware don't need to be linked. It doesn't add anything to the user experience. So Apple started making clones. Worked really well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdasd
Pure speculation. They need to lose any reference to 4 in their next phone.
Why? Because 4 is too old school? Are we now choosing phones based on their naming conventions?
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdasd
Waiting 16 months to produce the same phone, in looks, is absurd. The hype grew as the delay lengthened.
Why is this absurd? iPhone 4 accessories continue to work with the new iPhone 4S. The phone with the highest cust sat in the world not changing the form factor is absurd?
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdasd
It's ok. I dont care.
I do. Siri is the single biggest user experience addition in this release. It looks amazing to me. It plays right into the Apple brand and is feature for which the additional processing power of the A5 chip is essential (for its pan-iOS functions).
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdasd
Most countries outside the US are not on those contracts
Why should a US company make design decisions based on foreign markets when its primary market is domestic? Doing so would be an example of poor management, not something good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdasd
Most iPhone buyers are new to the platform. This will reduce that.
How will this reduce that? Because the 4S is out-specced by the competition? The same was true of the iPhone, 3G, 3GS, and 4. Yet Apple continues to deliver the best user experience available and made at least one very significant addition in Siri.
I love logic like this: The iPhone 4 convinced people to switch from Android, but now, the 4S, despite being better is just about every way from the 4, will reduce the amount of people willing to switch? Somehow making the iPhone better makes the iPhone worse? I'm very curious how that happened.
Virtually all of these super sized Android screens are lower resolution than the iPhone 4's small screen, but they look fine. The iPhone 4 res could easily handle another inch in screen size.
That said, the new high end Android stuff is full 1280x720 on a 4.5" screen, which must look pretty spectacular.
Here are the DPS counts for the current resolution of the iPhone at different screen sizes.
"The fact remains that this is the first heavily scrutinized iPhone" - Back up this statement with some kind of evidence.
"the 3GS came out right on time and there was- this is important- no criticism." - Back up this statement with some kind of evidence.
You claim this iPhone is 'late'. I disagree. Remember that since the last iPhone came out, the single biggest customer complaint was addressed with a release of a new iPhone for Verizon. Apple has consistently said that this fall is when the new version would come out. Claiming that they're late because they didn't hit the mid-summer release of previous years is incorrect. This 18 month gap was filled with the release of the Verizon iPhone, Lion, the release of new MacBook Airs, the iPad 2, and the new Apple TV. Apple releases solid products that deliver on their promises and uphold the Apple brand, not on the assumptions of the market. You can call it 'late', but I'm pretty sure that the sales results will be evidence that it was released right on time.
Remember that since the last iPhone came out, the single biggest customer complaint was addressed with a release of a new iPhone for Verizon." - Back up this statement with some kind of evidence.
Kind of annoying, right? but I agree with you completely. I also know that the general consensus of the two points I made are true based on my anecdotal data and following blogs/forums such as these.
And I concede that this was the intended date- particularly if apple sees fit to start bringing the iPhone launches to the fall instead of June. But all companies miss deadlines- even apple. So while that might be the case, it's also not out of the scope of reason that they missed it as well. Again- we'll never know (I'm surprised they told us about lion to be honest). But with Steve out of it, and with such an underwhelming release that hardware-wise could have been released in June, you should understand people's nervousness.
Take you as the poll- are you completely floored at this release and was it "magical"? Or was it just expected. THATS what I'm saying the difference is. It was just "ok". Not bad. But not the "wow" that were accustomed to (and before anyone calls me high maintenance for expecting "wow"- apple set the bar, not me).
maybe if you take care in understanding what people are saying as opposed to reading with preconceived ideas, there won't be a need to spell it out. We wanted more features, better performance AND ALSO different form factor. Both things. Unlike you I own my iPone 4 outright, so I don't have wait for permission when to upgrade and to which carrier. Apple pulled a similar trick with 3GS, faster innards than 3G, processor got a boost, speedier HSPA, better camera, voice control blah blah ..... history repeats itself. So for us 4 users who buy unlocked paying the full price, is this a "a very solid upgrade"? I don't think so, it's a disappointment as it was Mr Cook performance
No one has to wait for permission to upgrade, they just have to pay more.
Apple did 'pull a similar trick' with the 3GS. They released an updated phone in the same form factor as the best selling phone in the world. The 3GS then went on to become the best selling phone in the world. It is still the 2nd best selling phone in the world.
You state that you wanted, "more features, better performance AND ALSO different form factor". You received more features (which you later blah, blah, blah). You received better performance (which you later blah, blah, blah). You did not get a new form factor. If the form factor is that important to you, then there's not much I can say. Though I am curious why, if you like your 4 so much, you would complain about the 4S having the same form.
The majority of us are not buying a new phone every year. If you are happy with your 4, keep it. For those of use still using a 3G or 3GS, this is more than just a 'solid' upgrade. Either way, A5 and Siri alone make the 4S a solid upgrade over the 4. Whether a solid upgrade is worth $700 or whatever an unlocked 4S goes for is up to you. Feel free to be disappointed. But calling this a 'damp squib' upgrade is just not true. It provided a faster, better version of the best selling phone in the world and added an OS-integrated natural voice command system that is currently unparalleled in the market.
In conclusion,
more features + better performance - new form factor = damp squib
BUT
more features + better performance + new form factor = the phone you desire
Which means that all your complaining is because the best selling phone in the world, that you state to at least like, retained its iconic form. If that's your beef, then have at it. Meanwhile, I'll pre-order my 4S to replace my 3G and smile while doing it.
My iP4 works fine and is plenty fast for today's apps, and I don't see any compelling reason to upgrade mid-contract.
So if the iP4S isn't a compelling upgrade for a iP4 owner, is it compelling enough for a new user to pay $199 vs $99 for the iP4?
As the Android fans always say, choice is good. You don't have to upgrade. For me (and many others I think) the speed of the 4S and Siri are going to make me want it.
So if the iP4S isn't a compelling upgrade for a iP4 owner, is it compelling enough for a new user to pay $199 vs $99 for the iP4? If it's all about the superior iOS experience, wouldn't most new users be satisfied with the iP4 (and be easier for salepeople to push the $99 iP4)? At least until a slew of dual-core or uber-graphical apps are released (i.e. next year)?
I can't imagine any way that I'd buy the iPhone 4 instead of the 4S for only $100 difference. And I suspect that most people would feel the same way.
But, fortunately, you have the choice. Last year, the iPhone 3GS was the #2 phone in the market - after the iPhone 4. The same thing could happen here.
Oh, and btw, don't kid yourself about current apps not needing more performance. I have quite a few games that run slowly on the iPhone 4 when you get to higher levels with hundreds or thousands of objects loaded and could use a faster CPU and GPU.
That's why someone invented something called statistics. Your experience could be atypical. The guy who claimed that he's bought tons of Apple devices with only one failure could be atypical. But when you look at the entire market, Apple is always at or very near the top in terms of quality. And it's always on top for customer satisfaction. THAT is what matters.
I understand this, my issue is with the others that don't understand that even Apple has product failures.
I can't imagine any way that I'd buy the iPhone 4 instead of the 4S for only $100 difference. And I suspect that most people would feel the same way.
But, fortunately, you have the choice. Last year, the iPhone 3GS was the #2 phone in the market - after the iPhone 4. The same thing could happen here.
Oh, and btw, don't kid yourself about current apps not needing more performance. I have quite a few games that run slowly on the iPhone 4 when you get to higher levels with hundreds or thousands of objects loaded and could use a faster CPU and GPU.
I didn't suggest that you would. And I do agree that 3GS and Android sales show that millions of people are willing to accept an inferior phone to save $100 (and in the case of Android, save often even less).
I also agree that a small percentage of games would benefit from better CPU/GPU, although I haven't seen any research to suggest that more than an equally small percentage of users would find that important on a consistent basis.
Agreed. Most people cover their beautifully designed iPhones with cases anyway..
I think that the IPone4 modeling was a mistake even before the lauch. Now they did nothing to make the phone less glass in this 4S, now _THAT_ is a shame. Even if they would only have make the back from something else than glass....
Dont get me wrong you NEED a case if you buy a phone with a case made of glass if you think it might drop 1 time during the year....
A have suggested to everybody i know to buy a case right away because its glass. My 3G i had i have only ever dropped once on the floor to get the screen glass shatter. Its not a good idea to make even the back side from glass and with no metal bezel.
The reason that people have cases is that they have read reports from insurance companies in the paper saying how fragile the case is and even of friends breaking either glass.
I have many friends who did not buy the case and many have had the glass eventually break. One even dropped it on the floor on the first day. The backglass broke, now thats a shame.
The carriers have forced a 2 year product cycle on their customers. The hardware manufactures have changed their product life cycles to match!. I just bought the Verizon iPhone 4 in Feb. Would love upgraded hardware, but its not economically feasible.I switched from Android to iOS and will NEVER go back. It not about the hardware...its the integration with my life. Thanks Steve Jobs for seeing that.
Anyone else find it a little unsettling that the dictation feature was not given a demo? To me that would be very, very useful - and not including a demo makes it looks as though Apple are not confident of the accuracy.
Anyone else find it a little unsettling that the dictation feature was not given a demo? To me that would be very, very useful - and not including a demo makes it looks as though Apple are not confident of the accuracy.
AFAIK Siri uses the Nuance engine, which has a proven track record.
My guess is that the demo emphasized features that the competition doesn't have. Speech to text is kind of old hat, and on the Apple video demo is just sort of shown in passing as part of the larger feature set (as in the case of dictating a response to a new message).
Comments
If disagreeing with something Apple does is trolling... ok. I would counter that point by saying that defending anything Apple does is also trolling. (or reverse trolling?)
I love Apple- I've had Macs, iPads, iPods, and iPhones for the last 7 years depending on what came out when. But I am just pointing out that everything came out late- and it has since Lion.
Lion came late because they were working on iOS4. Now the excuse (from the defenders) is that iPhone 4S came late because of iCloud/iOS 5/Lion. And that's a valid excuse- and I believe that's what it is. But I do not like this trend (because it happened with Lion and now iOS5) that I'm seeing with Apple.
Proof:
I won't use Leopard/iphone 1 as an example (because it was the first iPhone model)- but Snow Leopard, iOS 3, and the iPhone 3GS all came out within 2 months of each other. 3GS wasn't delayed, nor was Snow Leopard- and the 3GS came out right on time and there was- this is important- no criticism.
Now, we throw iCloud into the mix. Ok- but when we are talking about APPLE- not Microsoft, Google, Amazon- Apple- they need to deliver because that's what they have done in the past. They have always delivered.
Say what you want- call me a troll, whatever. The fact remains that this is the first heavily scrutinized iPhone. Comedians are making fun of it on late night shows, etc. I'm going to buy it- but for everyone to dismiss everything anyone says and calls them "stupid" "trolls" "idiots" shines the light on all of you. You guys are the a-holes who think you know everything. And just because someone doesn't agree with you- they are wrong. Guess what- both can be right.
Typical "tough guys" behind a keyboard that wouldn't ever say that stuff or be such huge arrogant jerks to people in real life. Or maybe you are. Who cares?
"The fact remains that this is the first heavily scrutinized iPhone" - Back up this statement with some kind of evidence.
"the 3GS came out right on time and there was- this is important- no criticism." - Back up this statement with some kind of evidence.
You claim this iPhone is 'late'. I disagree. Remember that since the last iPhone came out, the single biggest customer complaint was addressed with a release of a new iPhone for Verizon. Apple has consistently said that this fall is when the new version would come out. Claiming that they're late because they didn't hit the mid-summer release of previous years is incorrect. This 18 month gap was filled with the release of the Verizon iPhone, Lion, the release of new MacBook Airs, the iPad 2, and the new Apple TV. Apple releases solid products that deliver on their promises and uphold the Apple brand, not on the assumptions of the market. You can call it 'late', but I'm pretty sure that the sales results will be evidence that it was released right on time.
That's speculation. There is no reason hardware and software upgrades have to be synced. the CDMA iPhone wasn't for instance. If iOS 5 took 16 months then iOS 6 might take 16 months, or 24. Do we wait that long?
I heard this argument in the mid-90s: Software and hardware don't need to be linked. It doesn't add anything to the user experience. So Apple started making clones. Worked really well.
Pure speculation. They need to lose any reference to 4 in their next phone.
Why? Because 4 is too old school? Are we now choosing phones based on their naming conventions?
Waiting 16 months to produce the same phone, in looks, is absurd. The hype grew as the delay lengthened.
Why is this absurd? iPhone 4 accessories continue to work with the new iPhone 4S. The phone with the highest cust sat in the world not changing the form factor is absurd?
It's ok. I dont care.
I do. Siri is the single biggest user experience addition in this release. It looks amazing to me. It plays right into the Apple brand and is feature for which the additional processing power of the A5 chip is essential (for its pan-iOS functions).
Most countries outside the US are not on those contracts
Why should a US company make design decisions based on foreign markets when its primary market is domestic? Doing so would be an example of poor management, not something good.
Most iPhone buyers are new to the platform. This will reduce that.
How will this reduce that? Because the 4S is out-specced by the competition? The same was true of the iPhone, 3G, 3GS, and 4. Yet Apple continues to deliver the best user experience available and made at least one very significant addition in Siri.
I love logic like this: The iPhone 4 convinced people to switch from Android, but now, the 4S, despite being better is just about every way from the 4, will reduce the amount of people willing to switch? Somehow making the iPhone better makes the iPhone worse? I'm very curious how that happened.
Virtually all of these super sized Android screens are lower resolution than the iPhone 4's small screen, but they look fine. The iPhone 4 res could easily handle another inch in screen size.
That said, the new high end Android stuff is full 1280x720 on a 4.5" screen, which must look pretty spectacular.
Here are the DPS counts for the current resolution of the iPhone at different screen sizes.
960*640 3.5" 329.65
960*640 3.85" 299.68
960*640 4" 288.44
960*640 4.25" 271.48
960*640 4.5" 256.39
The above Android screen would be as follows:
1280*720 4.5" 326.36
"The fact remains that this is the first heavily scrutinized iPhone" - Back up this statement with some kind of evidence.
"the 3GS came out right on time and there was- this is important- no criticism." - Back up this statement with some kind of evidence.
You claim this iPhone is 'late'. I disagree. Remember that since the last iPhone came out, the single biggest customer complaint was addressed with a release of a new iPhone for Verizon. Apple has consistently said that this fall is when the new version would come out. Claiming that they're late because they didn't hit the mid-summer release of previous years is incorrect. This 18 month gap was filled with the release of the Verizon iPhone, Lion, the release of new MacBook Airs, the iPad 2, and the new Apple TV. Apple releases solid products that deliver on their promises and uphold the Apple brand, not on the assumptions of the market. You can call it 'late', but I'm pretty sure that the sales results will be evidence that it was released right on time.
Remember that since the last iPhone came out, the single biggest customer complaint was addressed with a release of a new iPhone for Verizon." - Back up this statement with some kind of evidence.
Kind of annoying, right?
And I concede that this was the intended date- particularly if apple sees fit to start bringing the iPhone launches to the fall instead of June. But all companies miss deadlines- even apple. So while that might be the case, it's also not out of the scope of reason that they missed it as well. Again- we'll never know (I'm surprised they told us about lion to be honest). But with Steve out of it, and with such an underwhelming release that hardware-wise could have been released in June, you should understand people's nervousness.
Take you as the poll- are you completely floored at this release and was it "magical"? Or was it just expected. THATS what I'm saying the difference is. It was just "ok". Not bad. But not the "wow" that were accustomed to (and before anyone calls me high maintenance for expecting "wow"- apple set the bar, not me).
maybe if you take care in understanding what people are saying as opposed to reading with preconceived ideas, there won't be a need to spell it out. We wanted more features, better performance AND ALSO different form factor. Both things. Unlike you I own my iPone 4 outright, so I don't have wait for permission when to upgrade and to which carrier. Apple pulled a similar trick with 3GS, faster innards than 3G, processor got a boost, speedier HSPA, better camera, voice control blah blah ..... history repeats itself. So for us 4 users who buy unlocked paying the full price, is this a "a very solid upgrade"? I don't think so, it's a disappointment as it was Mr Cook performance
No one has to wait for permission to upgrade, they just have to pay more.
Apple did 'pull a similar trick' with the 3GS. They released an updated phone in the same form factor as the best selling phone in the world. The 3GS then went on to become the best selling phone in the world. It is still the 2nd best selling phone in the world.
You state that you wanted, "more features, better performance AND ALSO different form factor". You received more features (which you later blah, blah, blah). You received better performance (which you later blah, blah, blah). You did not get a new form factor. If the form factor is that important to you, then there's not much I can say. Though I am curious why, if you like your 4 so much, you would complain about the 4S having the same form.
The majority of us are not buying a new phone every year. If you are happy with your 4, keep it. For those of use still using a 3G or 3GS, this is more than just a 'solid' upgrade. Either way, A5 and Siri alone make the 4S a solid upgrade over the 4. Whether a solid upgrade is worth $700 or whatever an unlocked 4S goes for is up to you. Feel free to be disappointed. But calling this a 'damp squib' upgrade is just not true. It provided a faster, better version of the best selling phone in the world and added an OS-integrated natural voice command system that is currently unparalleled in the market.
In conclusion,
more features + better performance - new form factor = damp squib
BUT
more features + better performance + new form factor = the phone you desire
Which means that all your complaining is because the best selling phone in the world, that you state to at least like, retained its iconic form. If that's your beef, then have at it. Meanwhile, I'll pre-order my 4S to replace my 3G and smile while doing it.
My iP4 works fine and is plenty fast for today's apps, and I don't see any compelling reason to upgrade mid-contract.
So if the iP4S isn't a compelling upgrade for a iP4 owner, is it compelling enough for a new user to pay $199 vs $99 for the iP4?
As the Android fans always say, choice is good. You don't have to upgrade. For me (and many others I think) the speed of the 4S and Siri are going to make me want it.
So if the iP4S isn't a compelling upgrade for a iP4 owner, is it compelling enough for a new user to pay $199 vs $99 for the iP4? If it's all about the superior iOS experience, wouldn't most new users be satisfied with the iP4 (and be easier for salepeople to push the $99 iP4)? At least until a slew of dual-core or uber-graphical apps are released (i.e. next year)?
I can't imagine any way that I'd buy the iPhone 4 instead of the 4S for only $100 difference. And I suspect that most people would feel the same way.
But, fortunately, you have the choice. Last year, the iPhone 3GS was the #2 phone in the market - after the iPhone 4. The same thing could happen here.
Oh, and btw, don't kid yourself about current apps not needing more performance. I have quite a few games that run slowly on the iPhone 4 when you get to higher levels with hundreds or thousands of objects loaded and could use a faster CPU and GPU.
Why don't you, and others experiencing 50% failure rates, stop buying Apple products if they are so defective.
It sure would be easier, for all of us, than the constant whinging about it on Apple forums... Or is that your real agenda?
I can buy anything I want. I don't have to answer to you, or any of the others that don't seem to understand that products fail, including Apples.
That's why someone invented something called statistics. Your experience could be atypical. The guy who claimed that he's bought tons of Apple devices with only one failure could be atypical. But when you look at the entire market, Apple is always at or very near the top in terms of quality. And it's always on top for customer satisfaction. THAT is what matters.
I understand this, my issue is with the others that don't understand that even Apple has product failures.
I understand this, my issue is with the others that don't understand that even Apple has product failures.
Who said that Apple never has product failures?
Nice straw man argument.
Steve passed away?
... and, other than Steve's passing, nothing on these boards seems very important at the moment.
I can't imagine any way that I'd buy the iPhone 4 instead of the 4S for only $100 difference. And I suspect that most people would feel the same way.
But, fortunately, you have the choice. Last year, the iPhone 3GS was the #2 phone in the market - after the iPhone 4. The same thing could happen here.
Oh, and btw, don't kid yourself about current apps not needing more performance. I have quite a few games that run slowly on the iPhone 4 when you get to higher levels with hundreds or thousands of objects loaded and could use a faster CPU and GPU.
I didn't suggest that you would. And I do agree that 3GS and Android sales show that millions of people are willing to accept an inferior phone to save $100 (and in the case of Android, save often even less).
I also agree that a small percentage of games would benefit from better CPU/GPU, although I haven't seen any research to suggest that more than an equally small percentage of users would find that important on a consistent basis.
If you think the Galaxy S II is a "brick," you've obviously never used one or put it in your pocket. The 4, on the other hand... now THAT is a brick.
If it dont fit in a pocket and you need baggy pants with 4-liter pockets for it to fit or a man-purse.
Agreed. Most people cover their beautifully designed iPhones with cases anyway..
I think that the IPone4 modeling was a mistake even before the lauch. Now they did nothing to make the phone less glass in this 4S, now _THAT_ is a shame. Even if they would only have make the back from something else than glass....
Dont get me wrong you NEED a case if you buy a phone with a case made of glass if you think it might drop 1 time during the year....
A have suggested to everybody i know to buy a case right away because its glass. My 3G i had i have only ever dropped once on the floor to get the screen glass shatter. Its not a good idea to make even the back side from glass and with no metal bezel.
The reason that people have cases is that they have read reports from insurance companies in the paper saying how fragile the case is and even of friends breaking either glass.
I have many friends who did not buy the case and many have had the glass eventually break. One even dropped it on the floor on the first day. The backglass broke, now thats a shame.
Who said that Apple never has product failures?
Nice straw man argument.
Maybe you should go back through he thread and read the messages replying to the person who said they had issues.
Your reply is another example
The carriers have forced a 2 year product cycle on their customers. The hardware manufactures have changed their product life cycles to match!.
16 months ≠ 24 months?
And if you look at absolutely every other hardware manufacturer, you'd know that's not the case.
Anyone else find it a little unsettling that the dictation feature was not given a demo? To me that would be very, very useful - and not including a demo makes it looks as though Apple are not confident of the accuracy.
AFAIK Siri uses the Nuance engine, which has a proven track record.
My guess is that the demo emphasized features that the competition doesn't have. Speech to text is kind of old hat, and on the Apple video demo is just sort of shown in passing as part of the larger feature set (as in the case of dictating a response to a new message).