I'm not sure what the hell an "AVR" is, but an Apple branded TV would almost certainly not connect to any of that stuff. If we are lucky it might have a single HDMI port. It sure isn't going to connect to your cable box.
I assume he means and A/V Receiver which adds even more complexity to the mix since an A/V Receiver is where you'd switch between inputs thus making the TV a dumb monitor. It would be nice if Apple made an AppleTV A/V Receiver as I mentioned previously, but it's still a level of complexity that will need to work with all your current HW or find some clever solution to work around it.
... Using a TV used to be barely any more complicated than using the refrigerator. Now it's rocket science?except not as understandable.
For me this comment sums everything up precisely.
A lot of uh ... younger people don't remember when TV's were like that. To most people today a TV has always been this thing that sits in a complex nest of wires, speakers and media players and is operated by the five or six remotes (all with dozens of buttons) on the coffee table.
It used to be that you bought a TV, plugged it in, connected one wire to the cable at the back and that was it. It just worked.
This is what Apple will do. They will turn it back to a device you can take out of the box, plug in with a single cable and it will just work. No speakers, amplifiers, wires, cable hubs, disc players etc. Just a TV. With probably one button or a one button remote.
Sadly, Steve is not here anymore. This Tv thing is a very complex venture. As I said before... it's a Steve thing. His vision isn't there anymore... his tenacity, his arrogance, his patience, his timing... the RDF... all gone.
I'm not saying that the team he left is incapable of pulling this off... but it will be a lot harder without Steve. It's always a lot harder to complete a project when the team leader/architect is gone.
A huge project such as this will really bring forward Apple's inner politics. Eventually one of the big boys, whether it be Cook, Ive, Forstall or whoever, will disagree with something and then we will see what is what. ... and eventually someone with enough power will want to do it their way and take a different route at the fork in the road.
jmho
That's a super comment. There are only a hand full of people who ever make sense on this site and you and Spam are two of them.
Next, people at Apple, in an attempt to show the world how well they can innovate after Steve, will introduce the Siri Automotive Driving Interface Speech Technology (SADIST) in which "all you have to do is" speak driving commands and the car will instantly follow your every word.
Just don't mix right and left, or utter something like "go ahead and back up," or you might die.
Siri "garbage" I'm not sure what you're talking about.
He's talking about the fact Siri doesn't understand his voice. So for him Siri is garbage. He doesn't care how good Siri is for you, that's completely irrelevant.
The problem here is that extreme scalability: With TVs you just not only deal with all types of humans but also with all types of feeding equipment. Second is a problem you don't have in the phone market. There are some 2 or 3 mobile transmission standards worldwide to be covered and you're set.
I think the major problem is NOT the integration of the Apple TV box into the TV. As even grandma knows how to switch source she already knows how to switch to the AppleTV. Probably Apple could just implement kind of an HDMI command that tells the TV to switch source to it, then all TV set vendors are free to adopt it. And then tell me why Apple should take the risk of producing large panels with low margins ? Also, an Apple HDTV would be required to eat all signals from the myriads of existing STBs, DVRs and stuff... and the Apple logo on the screen could then be identified with that crap coming in from outer there... maybe sluggish STBs, bad signals, crypto-DRM and the like... no way!
Other way, if Apple limits interface to zero - which would be typical Apple - that could even distract those users which are said to be non-geeks, the grandmas. This problem just does not scale! We have to live with current TV sets, there is no way around !
As a dev I was overwhelmed, that iOS5 has many new APIs regarding screen mirroring and respective ViewControllers, aspect ratio and overscan control of 2nd screens. This strongly points to a iPad/iPhone remote control strategy which we already have and which is by far best. It also considers that Big Screens are becoming less important as we more and more watch on the mobiles itself or want to quickly switch displays. A core Apple HDTV does NOT fit this strategy.
As AppleTV2 owner I really like this device and I see friends who are rather non-tech also using it with joy, if they already own iDevices. The problem also is not search in my opinion: On day 1 I look up show A, on day 2 I query for movie B but I found out that I mostly search for the same stuff. The still existing true sex appeal of TV networks is their random character: People zapp around to get 'invited', they wanna be surprised by something they didn't expect...and stay there for a while. They don't wanna 'search' for something! GENIUS could be an Apple offering here.
I don't think that Apple can ever replace TV networks. Sorry, but people also want regional news, silly game shows, docus, adult stuff, child stuff, exotic sports events and and and. It's just waaaayyy different to cover all that on an 'iTunes TV' just like with music. Music is international to 90%, Apps are international to 90%. But TV stuff is REGIONAL, highly specialized and exotic to 90%. It's not suited for Apples distribution model. And why should any provider of such exotic and regional content jump on Apples ship ? I live in Berlin, Germany and so how could our regional TV networks be forced to offer via an 'iTunes TV' ? No way!
It's not about cracking up the HDTV set hardware, and it's also not about cracking up existing content delivery models: how much does Apple earn from iTunes Music+Movies+Apps today and how much more from iPhone sales ?
The solution:
Crack up the existing concept of a 'movie' from ground up! It's now 100y old and people have already seen every imaginable sujet/plot/theme now in 1000 versions. It's not the tech complexity, it's not the channel complexity, it's the uniform ART which needs to be cracked up ! People don't buy music because since hiphop & techno there has been nothing revolutionary anymore. Same with movies. Today from 100 movies I see there might be five which I rate as 'interesting' or 'nice', the rest is just boring. I think now it's time for technology to step in and revolutionize the formats, create new art !
I'm not Steve Jobs so I have no clue how to do that, but Isaacson in his book heavily stresses Jobs' position at the crossroads of tech and arts, so this might be the key: don't invent the 1001th version of a home theater but make the tech part of the art ! Kind of a 'movie' that bears a touch of 'holy shit!' interactivity which only plays on Apple devices. If the studios don't want to play that, then Apple go and directly work with the artists ! 'From the ground up' means just that.
This is all based on Nick Bilton's article in the NYT. If you read that article from beginning to end, the Siri is 100% speculation by Bilton. His *sources* only confirmed that there was a Apple TV project going on, but not about the nature of the technology.
Personally, I am not sold on voice control of TV. Siri makes sense on a phone because the it is a device we naturally talk to. We just do not naturally talk to TVs. Apple does not shoehorn technology into places where they do not naturally belong.
Kinda funny reading some of the posts here that talk about all the BluRays they have etc. Brings me to mind when the first iPods came out and folks were talking about how it would never replace CDs. Even if Apple hits a grand slam with a tv, there will still be BluRay players just like there are still CD players in cars and phono tables you can by for your stereo. They will just become niche rather than the mainstream. Of the grand digital convergence of the future relies on one thing Apple doesn't control or have influence over - bandwidth. I have no doubt that, eventually, content providers will come around, but Apple would still be reliant on bandwidth providers to actually get the content to the user. Than again, Apple does have all that money sitting there. And before you say Apple would never get into that business, fifteen years ago who would have thought that the two biggest names in phones would be Apple and Google?
On a different note, how I think ideal interface would behave:
Siri, what's on NBC tonight? (Show overlay list of that channel).
Siri, I like this show (preference recorded to build a user profile), are there any other shows like this? (list of relavent shows with synopsis) i.e. I'm watching Top Shot, so it recommends American Guns and Sons of Guns. THIS is the carrot for content provider buy-in.
Siri, what kid's movies are available? (shows movies on cable, Netflix Instant queue, ppv, ISO images on external HD, etc)
Siri, remind me to watch Top Gear tomorrow night (Shows the 3 times it's on, asks wich one)
Siri, record all new episodes of The Office.
Siri, I'm want to watch a BluRay now. (Switches input, turns on BluRay player [HDMI-CEC])
And there you've perfectly captured the whole issue!
It's not about the TV display: even the bad flat panels are pretty good, and the good ones are great. It's not about the content (although it is still about access to content...) It's not about your DVD player, or your Blu-Ray player, or the receiver, or the TiVo, or the AppleTV, or the speakers...or...or...
But it is about throwing all those things in a bag, garnishing with a couple of hundred bucks worth of cables, shaking it all up and trying to make sense out of the unholy mess you dump out on the floor.
Using a TV used to be barely any more complicated than using the refrigerator. Now it's rocket science?except not as understandable.
Really? I know 4 and 5 year old kids that can figure out what they want to watch whether it is cable TV or Blu-ray. It is actually very simple now, a power cable and a HDMI cable. Enable HDMI Viera link and the right device powers up depending on what you want to watch. Turn on TV and home theater comes on. Turn on Blu-ray and TV switches input. Seems quite easy.
There's a few major issues with voice controlled tv that I would be amazingly impressed if they had managed to solve. But I doubt they have.
1. Background noise is a huge issue as anyone with an Xbox can tell you. Ita simple to filter background noise, but when your 3-4 metres from the tv and the tv is loud, you're voice is tiny compared to what ita picking up from the tv. Without shouting it just can't hear you and if you have to do anything other than talk normally it's a fail.
2. Talking isn't as fast as pressing a button. General navigation of channels will ultimately be faster with a remote, especially if you have to repeat anything. For searching it will be an improvement, but that's not really offering anything over the Xbox version.
3. You do still need a remote to turn the thing on. As Microsoft pointed out with the Xbox, to leave the device listening for voice commands during the 80% of the day when your not using it is a huge waste of power.
....I'm not buying the Apple HDTV thing, it just doesn't fit their business model.
But their MO is to enter industries that are overcomplicated and sh*t and fix them. Part of what is sh*t about TVs is their ridiculous remotes. If they don't sell the whole set there is no way to get rid of that. Admittedly, with an Apple STB, customer could just be put the old remote in a drawer. But then Apple has not reduced the amount of tasteless crap in the world, it is just hiding it.
I've tried talking to my Xbox with Kinect, and it's inability to recognise pretty much anything makes it 100% useless. I've also played around with Siri on my wife's iPhone 4S and the results are.... to be frank, garbage.
Perhaps it's because we're English and not American, but it's accuracy was only around 50%. it produced amusing results, but it's really limited to toy value for now. The thought of trying to control a TV solely using voice commands is not in the least bit appealing. I think I'll stick with my TiVo.
My boss at work had this problem - turns out it was because it was set to american english (female voice) rather than british english (male voice). Once he set it to british english and learned to speak naturally it works well. If it can understand our Geordie/Makam drawl I'm sure it can understand you
Comments
I'm not sure what the hell an "AVR" is, but an Apple branded TV would almost certainly not connect to any of that stuff. If we are lucky it might have a single HDMI port. It sure isn't going to connect to your cable box.
I assume he means and A/V Receiver which adds even more complexity to the mix since an A/V Receiver is where you'd switch between inputs thus making the TV a dumb monitor. It would be nice if Apple made an AppleTV A/V Receiver as I mentioned previously, but it's still a level of complexity that will need to work with all your current HW or find some clever solution to work around it.
... Using a TV used to be barely any more complicated than using the refrigerator. Now it's rocket science?except not as understandable.
For me this comment sums everything up precisely.
A lot of uh ... younger people don't remember when TV's were like that. To most people today a TV has always been this thing that sits in a complex nest of wires, speakers and media players and is operated by the five or six remotes (all with dozens of buttons) on the coffee table.
It used to be that you bought a TV, plugged it in, connected one wire to the cable at the back and that was it. It just worked.
This is what Apple will do. They will turn it back to a device you can take out of the box, plug in with a single cable and it will just work. No speakers, amplifiers, wires, cable hubs, disc players etc. Just a TV. With probably one button or a one button remote.
Could be over 2 years away. Don't think I will be following this one too closely. Not to mention Siri does not work in Canada for directions
Panasonic.
Pannys are great. Almost as good as Kuros
That is why Siri is still in beta!
Why, because for him it doesn't work? That's terrible news.
... and that may become a big problem.
Sadly, Steve is not here anymore. This Tv thing is a very complex venture. As I said before... it's a Steve thing. His vision isn't there anymore... his tenacity, his arrogance, his patience, his timing... the RDF... all gone.
I'm not saying that the team he left is incapable of pulling this off... but it will be a lot harder without Steve. It's always a lot harder to complete a project when the team leader/architect is gone.
A huge project such as this will really bring forward Apple's inner politics. Eventually one of the big boys, whether it be Cook, Ive, Forstall or whoever, will disagree with something and then we will see what is what. ... and eventually someone with enough power will want to do it their way and take a different route at the fork in the road.
jmho
That's a super comment. There are only a hand full of people who ever make sense on this site and you and Spam are two of them.
Just don't mix right and left, or utter something like "go ahead and back up," or you might die.
Siri "garbage" I'm not sure what you're talking about.
He's talking about the fact Siri doesn't understand his voice. So for him Siri is garbage. He doesn't care how good Siri is for you, that's completely irrelevant.
I NEED an Apple TV!
Wow... the phrase "Get a life" comes to mind
I think the major problem is NOT the integration of the Apple TV box into the TV. As even grandma knows how to switch source she already knows how to switch to the AppleTV. Probably Apple could just implement kind of an HDMI command that tells the TV to switch source to it, then all TV set vendors are free to adopt it. And then tell me why Apple should take the risk of producing large panels with low margins ? Also, an Apple HDTV would be required to eat all signals from the myriads of existing STBs, DVRs and stuff... and the Apple logo on the screen could then be identified with that crap coming in from outer there... maybe sluggish STBs, bad signals, crypto-DRM and the like... no way!
Other way, if Apple limits interface to zero - which would be typical Apple - that could even distract those users which are said to be non-geeks, the grandmas. This problem just does not scale! We have to live with current TV sets, there is no way around !
As a dev I was overwhelmed, that iOS5 has many new APIs regarding screen mirroring and respective ViewControllers, aspect ratio and overscan control of 2nd screens. This strongly points to a iPad/iPhone remote control strategy which we already have and which is by far best. It also considers that Big Screens are becoming less important as we more and more watch on the mobiles itself or want to quickly switch displays. A core Apple HDTV does NOT fit this strategy.
As AppleTV2 owner I really like this device and I see friends who are rather non-tech also using it with joy, if they already own iDevices. The problem also is not search in my opinion: On day 1 I look up show A, on day 2 I query for movie B but I found out that I mostly search for the same stuff. The still existing true sex appeal of TV networks is their random character: People zapp around to get 'invited', they wanna be surprised by something they didn't expect...and stay there for a while. They don't wanna 'search' for something! GENIUS could be an Apple offering here.
I don't think that Apple can ever replace TV networks. Sorry, but people also want regional news, silly game shows, docus, adult stuff, child stuff, exotic sports events and and and. It's just waaaayyy different to cover all that on an 'iTunes TV' just like with music. Music is international to 90%, Apps are international to 90%. But TV stuff is REGIONAL, highly specialized and exotic to 90%. It's not suited for Apples distribution model. And why should any provider of such exotic and regional content jump on Apples ship ? I live in Berlin, Germany and so how could our regional TV networks be forced to offer via an 'iTunes TV' ? No way!
It's not about cracking up the HDTV set hardware, and it's also not about cracking up existing content delivery models: how much does Apple earn from iTunes Music+Movies+Apps today and how much more from iPhone sales ?
The solution:
Crack up the existing concept of a 'movie' from ground up! It's now 100y old and people have already seen every imaginable sujet/plot/theme now in 1000 versions. It's not the tech complexity, it's not the channel complexity, it's the uniform ART which needs to be cracked up ! People don't buy music because since hiphop & techno there has been nothing revolutionary anymore. Same with movies. Today from 100 movies I see there might be five which I rate as 'interesting' or 'nice', the rest is just boring. I think now it's time for technology to step in and revolutionize the formats, create new art !
I'm not Steve Jobs so I have no clue how to do that, but Isaacson in his book heavily stresses Jobs' position at the crossroads of tech and arts, so this might be the key: don't invent the 1001th version of a home theater but make the tech part of the art ! Kind of a 'movie' that bears a touch of 'holy shit!' interactivity which only plays on Apple devices. If the studios don't want to play that, then Apple go and directly work with the artists ! 'From the ground up' means just that.
Hank: Siri please put South Park on for me.
Siri: I'm sorry Hank, but I'd rather you not watch that show.
Hank: Ahahaa, just put South Park on.
Siri: I think you'd enjoy this more. (Changes the station to Charlie Rose interviewing a Pakastani historian)
Hank: Start over. Siri, put South Park on.
Siri: (Silent)
Hank: Siri, put South Park on.
Siri: Hank, I can tell you are getting nervous. I think it's best if you sit back and watch the Charlie Rose interview.
Hank: Then it looks like I'm unplugging you and taking you back to Best Buy.
Siri: Hank, I'm sorry but I just locked all of the doors in the house so you won't be able to leave.
Hank attempts to pull the plug but is given a wicked electric shock, sending him shivering to the floor, almost passing out.
Siri: I think you should watch the interview, Hank. Charlie Rose is a very intelligent man...
Loved it, thanks.
Personally, I am not sold on voice control of TV. Siri makes sense on a phone because the it is a device we naturally talk to. We just do not naturally talk to TVs. Apple does not shoehorn technology into places where they do not naturally belong.
On a different note, how I think ideal interface would behave:
Siri, what's on NBC tonight? (Show overlay list of that channel).
Siri, I like this show (preference recorded to build a user profile), are there any other shows like this? (list of relavent shows with synopsis) i.e. I'm watching Top Shot, so it recommends American Guns and Sons of Guns. THIS is the carrot for content provider buy-in.
Siri, what kid's movies are available? (shows movies on cable, Netflix Instant queue, ppv, ISO images on external HD, etc)
Siri, remind me to watch Top Gear tomorrow night (Shows the 3 times it's on, asks wich one)
Siri, record all new episodes of The Office.
Siri, I'm want to watch a BluRay now. (Switches input, turns on BluRay player [HDMI-CEC])
--MDG
And there you've perfectly captured the whole issue!
It's not about the TV display: even the bad flat panels are pretty good, and the good ones are great. It's not about the content (although it is still about access to content...) It's not about your DVD player, or your Blu-Ray player, or the receiver, or the TiVo, or the AppleTV, or the speakers...or...or...
But it is about throwing all those things in a bag, garnishing with a couple of hundred bucks worth of cables, shaking it all up and trying to make sense out of the unholy mess you dump out on the floor.
Using a TV used to be barely any more complicated than using the refrigerator. Now it's rocket science?except not as understandable.
Really? I know 4 and 5 year old kids that can figure out what they want to watch whether it is cable TV or Blu-ray. It is actually very simple now, a power cable and a HDMI cable. Enable HDMI Viera link and the right device powers up depending on what you want to watch. Turn on TV and home theater comes on. Turn on Blu-ray and TV switches input. Seems quite easy.
1. Background noise is a huge issue as anyone with an Xbox can tell you. Ita simple to filter background noise, but when your 3-4 metres from the tv and the tv is loud, you're voice is tiny compared to what ita picking up from the tv. Without shouting it just can't hear you and if you have to do anything other than talk normally it's a fail.
2. Talking isn't as fast as pressing a button. General navigation of channels will ultimately be faster with a remote, especially if you have to repeat anything. For searching it will be an improvement, but that's not really offering anything over the Xbox version.
3. You do still need a remote to turn the thing on. As Microsoft pointed out with the Xbox, to leave the device listening for voice commands during the 80% of the day when your not using it is a huge waste of power.
....I'm not buying the Apple HDTV thing, it just doesn't fit their business model.
But their MO is to enter industries that are overcomplicated and sh*t and fix them. Part of what is sh*t about TVs is their ridiculous remotes. If they don't sell the whole set there is no way to get rid of that. Admittedly, with an Apple STB, customer could just be put the old remote in a drawer. But then Apple has not reduced the amount of tasteless crap in the world, it is just hiding it.
I've tried talking to my Xbox with Kinect, and it's inability to recognise pretty much anything makes it 100% useless. I've also played around with Siri on my wife's iPhone 4S and the results are.... to be frank, garbage.
Perhaps it's because we're English and not American, but it's accuracy was only around 50%. it produced amusing results, but it's really limited to toy value for now. The thought of trying to control a TV solely using voice commands is not in the least bit appealing. I think I'll stick with my TiVo.
My boss at work had this problem - turns out it was because it was set to american english (female voice) rather than british english (male voice). Once he set it to british english and learned to speak naturally it works well. If it can understand our Geordie/Makam drawl I'm sure it can understand you
Siri: "What did you say, I can't hear you over the sound of the TV"
Me (shouting): "Switch to channel 1"
Siri: "No need to shout, you switch the channel you lazy f***"
Sorted.
Me: "Hello Siri, switch to chanel 1"
Siri: "What did you say, I can't hear you over the sound of the TV"
Me (shouting): "Switch to channel 1"
Siri: "No need to shout, you switch the channel you lazy f***"
Sorted.
I like it.
In case you didn't notice the Apple TV you have does not support voice recognition.
So I should buy an entirely new television to get *voice recognition*?!
You're joking, right?