If all the unemployed people are qualified for the jobs required at the data center, then I'm SURE Apple would have hired more of them. Like the article says, "Those jobs aren't for us. All we know is furniture." I'm sure those furniture people benefited in that Apple needs to furnish their data center. After that, the benefit is gone until new furniture is needed.
So for the town to really benefit, the people need to learn how to work those jobs. That's their job, not Apple's. Apple hires those who qualify for the job. That's what they need to do and that's their rights.
Even if all the local residents had engineering degrees from MIT, Apple would not have hired any more people. They hired the staff that was needed. A better educated/trained local population would have meant that some or all the the meager 50 positions might have gone to these locals, that's all.
And how are the local kids' aspirations for high tech jobs going to be helped by an underfunded education system continuously bled by tax cuts?
Apple is doing nothing wrong here. They're making strategic business investments while doing their best to minimize costs and maximize profitability - which is what they, as a corporation, are supposed to be doing. On the other hand, local politicians are supposed to be looking out for the interests of their constituents (and not just a handful of lucky land owners). They're supposed to be making wise strategic decisions that benefit the local community rather than just a handful of businesspeople.
You are telling me 50 jobs that is all Apple offered. A dam disgrace indeed. This state is high in unemployment to begin with.Tim Cook and Apple better get their act together.
50 jobs is 50 more than there were before. That number of jobs in a small town is proportionally much higher than if it was a small city. Besides, Apple is a business not an unemployment mitigator. Additionally, you don't know what else they may want to do there in the future. As for the residents, if they want jobs there, they had better go back to school. There are states with jobless rates higher than NC.
"Taxes. While people focus on the tax breaks, they miss the fact that Apple will still be paying 50% of the property tax and 15% of the personal taxes for 10 years "
As opposed to the 100% of property taxes that would be paid by the former owners?
You are hung up on percentages.
The former owners paid taxes on farmland. They might have paid $1000 a year for their 100% (probably less...)
Apple pays taxes as a business. Their 100% liabilities might be $100,000 (I'm making that up)
If they pay 25% of the property taxes, they are still paying $25,000 which is $24,000 more than the previous owners.
If I had real numbers to work with, it might make more sense. But there is no way Apple's data center is in the same property tax bracket as the former owner's farmland.
If all the unemployed people are qualified for the jobs required at the data center, then I'm SURE Apple would have hired more of them. Like the article says, "Those jobs aren't for us. All we know is furniture." I'm sure those furniture people benefited in that Apple needs to furnish their data center. After that, the benefit is gone until new furniture is needed.
So for the town to really benefit, the people need to learn how to work those jobs. That's their job, not Apple's. Apple hires those who qualify for the job. That's what they need to do and that's their rights.
Apple is not the villain here. But the politicians, as usual, have failed in their duty by not properly funding schools and other services that are essential to developing a vibrant workforce. What part of this deal will help local kids or adults qualify for better jobs?
The tax break is not "free". It comes at the expense of government services such as education, at a time when education and other vital services are under the worst strain in almost a century. Where is the equation showing that the lost tax revenue is made up for, over the long term, by actual benefits?
What are you talking about?!
Maiden has a property tax rate of 0.4%. If Apple's data center is assessed at $1B, the property taxes due TO THE TOWN would be $4M/year. However, Apple negotiated a 50% reduction for 10 years...meaning they give the town $2M/year. That is $2 million per year the town didn't previously get. An additional $2 million per year to be spent "to provide such services as administration, finance and accounting administration, planning and zoning, police protection, fire protection, streets, legal services, sanitation, parks and recreation, library facilities and Town maintained cemeteries."
What part do you not understand? There is no lost tax revenue...Maiden went from getting effectively nothing (maybe $800/year?) for that land, to now getting $2,000,000/year for 10 years, then $4,000,000/year forever.
"According to the report, local authorities have discounted property taxes by 50 percent..."
So, what is their actual amount Apple pays this county/small town in real dollars. Remember, the town and county would not otherwise get this money. I expect it is a lot more than the $1,400 / year I pay locally. Probably in the tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars, which is all gravy to them. If they wanted the same income without Apple they would have had to raise everyone else's property taxes.
Why don't you contact the town directly for the answers to these questions?
Why don't you, prior to making half-assed claims that only look at one side of the story? It's your type of business/political thinking that have gotten this country into the sad economic state it's in today.
I see some woolly thinking. It may be true and very reasonable that locals are unhappy that only fifty jobs came with the data centre so far, but to conclude from that that Apple should have made more jobs simply doesn't follow. The choice the community has is to have Apple there and accept fifty new jobs, or have Apple go elsewhere and not have fifty new jobs. To say they would rather have had a new factory with 500 jobs is certainly understandable, but that's not Apple's fault! All sorts of folk wisdom has been directed at this common misdirection of blame, from the saying about not looking a gift horse in the mouth to Æsop's fables.
Chris
I think this is the best summation of the situation on the thread.
Out of work people, especially in an area where many people are out of work are depressed and defeated. The truly motivated have already realised what the situation is, and have left town in search of new jobs or a new life. Some have switched professions, lowered expectations, and got a new, different job right there in town.
Those that haven't done either of these things, and remain in town, are basically depressed people with a skill set that isn't needed anymore. They are afraid of changing. They are waiting around for something to happen, probably (although it's extremely unlikely), they are waiting for the furniture industry to revive right there in the same town. They haven't yet got their minds around the fact that this isn't going to happen.
Depressed people living in a fantasy world, very often get their hopes up when something like this Apple development comes along. They imagine all kinds of rosy benefits that simply aren't going to happen. Then when they don't, they get even more depressed, or even angry because their little fantasy bubble popped yet again.
I think it really unlikely that Apple misrepresented the number of jobs they would be providing. These people have had their dreams shattered, but the dreams were of their own making. More like idle wishing than dreams really.
obviously held a gun to their heads, and no one stopped them.
Folks, you, they, we all get what we ask for in the end.
research, ask question's, get answers. If you don't like what you hear, then don't do it! At least don't do it, and then complain that it's not what YOU thought it was going to be or do for you.
Why don't you, prior to making half-assed claims that only look at one side of the story? It's your type of business/political thinking that have gotten this country into the sad economic state it's in today.
Looks like concentricity has come up with the numbers and Maiden benefits by a massive amount because of the data center, even WITH a 50% tax deduction.
Now that Maiden has this windfall of money, your rage should be directed at how they spend it.
If they don't spend it on education, your issue is with with the town of Maiden, not Apple.
Why don't you, prior to making half-assed claims that only look at one side of the story? It's your type of business/political thinking that have gotten this country into the sad economic state it's in today.
You act like Apple personally bulldozed your shack in the woods before you could finish your manifesto. Next you'll be claiming that Apple is putting local Mom & Pop data centers out of business in Maiden, NC.
You're the one claiming the town is losing money from Apple's presence despite no article ever implying that is happening so if you want to make such wild claims the you should put in the effort to prove your crazyass hypothesis.
PS: I know for a fact Mugzy is personally responsible for the everything wrong with this country.
You are telling me 50 jobs that is all Apple offered. A dam disgrace indeed. This state is high in unemployment to begin with.Tim Cook and Apple better get their act together.
That's just stupid. So because they don't hire much you'd rather have no Apple data center and no tax revenues rather than have the data center and some revenues.
On top of that, you'd rather not get your foot in the door in an industry that is the wave of the future.
Personally, I don't like the present structure about giving big tax breaks to lure companies to different areas of the country but that is the necessary evil of the system that we have now. It tends to undercut the tax base that is needed for local services and building and maintaining infrastructure.
In order to really know what the deal means in the short and long term, there are many variables that are unknown, at least from the information that was presented in the article. Things like how much did the construction aid the local community? How much in taxes did the couple that owned the property pay on the sale? What is the land being valued at for Apple and what taxes are they actually paying? What does it really mean for an 85% reduction in personal taxes? Is that just for Apple at the state level and/or for the employees in order to lure them to the area to work? How many kids will be added to the school system and who is paying for this? Who is building and maintaining the roads and or the other infrastructure that is needed for the plant? Will Apple having a plant here attract other business to the area?
My gut tells me that this probably is a good deal for the community overall but a more in depth analysis is really needed to be sure and I am not qualified to do that analysis. JMO though.
Maybe Apple could start making the furniture for the Apple Stores at that site. At least the locals would have those skills one would think.
That is a good idea. They make very high quality furniture in NC.
I think some people overlook the fact that 50 highly paid new employees even if from out of state are moving to NC and will be spending their income on homes, gas, grocery, cars, etc. There has to be some trickle down to the local economy.
At what point do we consider the downsides of the tax breaks on education and social services that benefit all the residents of the town and state?
I don't think you're that stupid, you just misunderstandd things. The tax breaks were granted to residents because they were getting a lot of new revenue from Apple. And if they dropped taxes on residents to the point that social services and benefits suffered, that is not Apple's fault. Apple does not set the tax rates for the town's residents.
i am probably on the same side of the political divide as you, but jeez shed the tired old knee-jerk reaction because you only make all of us look dumb.
Did those people ever stop to consider the tax breaks that city receives?
What tax breaks does the city receive? They are charging the taxes...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wings
"According to the report, local authorities have discounted property taxes by 50 percent and personal taxes by 85 percent."
If THAT'S not a major benefit to everyone there, I don't know what is. Please Apple, come build a plant in my town. I wouldn't care if I work there or not if it means I'll get my property taxes chopped in half.
Why do you think everyone gets their taxes cut?
The property tax cuts are for the Apple property and the personal tax breaks are for the employees. This is part of the package to get them to build there.
Looks like concentricity has come up with the numbers and Maiden benefits by a massive amount because of the data center, even WITH a 50% tax deduction.
Now that Maiden has this windfall of money, your rage should be directed at how they spend it.
If they don't spend it on education, your issue is with with the town of Maiden, not Apple.
Not attacking you, but just pointing out to the innumerate who have been frothing at the mouth:
The 50% tax rate deduction given to Apple is meaningless.
The meaningful numbers are: The full tax rate applied to $0.00 without the datacenter vs Half Rate on a helluva lot more than zero dollars with the datacenter. (Assuming the full tax rate is a positive number.)
I'm sure the nature of the jobs at the tech center disappointed locals. But how many man-years of construction employment did it provide the city? The county? The state? After the tax cut, is apple paying NO local or state taxes, or just a reduced amount? How much? How much will it pay annually starting ten years from now?
Thank you, I read through the entire set of postings for this sort of response. Exactly. Construction jobs from a year long building project, fiber optic lines that needed to be brought into the low tech area, and the possibility about to be fulfilled that they will expand the center both in square footage and adding a solar farm. Leaf Solar is out of Jacksonville, FL ... so that is more jobs in the South.
Mammoth projects like this are often catalysts for other similar projects to spring up nearby. This is how the Research Triangle Park between Raleigh and Durham occurred. The NC Legislature is well aware of the billions that have been brought into the state from decisions made in 1959 to promote new tech.
Also, there is the relationship that NC is creating with Apple. Now Apple as a company is not going to have loyalty ... however, if there is a state that is easier to deal with than others, they will often make the business decision to do more things there. They have always had the DNA to manufacture things and SJ expressed a desire to manufacture things in the USA ... who knows, if they find it easy enough to do business in NC, that possibility might arise. There are are very large number of computer and other engineers in NC from the Research Triangle Park, Triad, UNC-Chapel Hill and NC State.
Its my guess that the NC Legislature is making just such a bet.
People who have been furniture makers their whole lives do not bring the skills necessary. It doesn't matter how many jobs Apple brings to this area the people who have lived there their whole lives do not have the skills. At least some one got jobs building it and the people who owned the land made out.
Apple did the right thing.
I agree with you, but thinking it was more that the town expected a influx of high tech jobs, people that would buy furnature.
I agree with you, but thinking it was more that the town expected a influx of high tech jobs, people that would buy furnature.
The furniture does not get sold locally. They make furniture for the really big distributors in the urban centers. 50 bedroom sets is not going to make a difference. The reason their unemployment is so high is because the customers in the urban centers are not buying high quality handcrafted hardwood furniture. If they are buying furniture at all it is from the cheap sellers like Ikea who specialize in disposable press board, laminated, some assembly required, junk.
Comments
If all the unemployed people are qualified for the jobs required at the data center, then I'm SURE Apple would have hired more of them. Like the article says, "Those jobs aren't for us. All we know is furniture." I'm sure those furniture people benefited in that Apple needs to furnish their data center. After that, the benefit is gone until new furniture is needed.
So for the town to really benefit, the people need to learn how to work those jobs. That's their job, not Apple's. Apple hires those who qualify for the job. That's what they need to do and that's their rights.
Even if all the local residents had engineering degrees from MIT, Apple would not have hired any more people. They hired the staff that was needed. A better educated/trained local population would have meant that some or all the the meager 50 positions might have gone to these locals, that's all.
And how are the local kids' aspirations for high tech jobs going to be helped by an underfunded education system continuously bled by tax cuts?
Apple is doing nothing wrong here. They're making strategic business investments while doing their best to minimize costs and maximize profitability - which is what they, as a corporation, are supposed to be doing. On the other hand, local politicians are supposed to be looking out for the interests of their constituents (and not just a handful of lucky land owners). They're supposed to be making wise strategic decisions that benefit the local community rather than just a handful of businesspeople.
You are telling me 50 jobs that is all Apple offered. A dam disgrace indeed. This state is high in unemployment to begin with.Tim Cook and Apple better get their act together.
50 jobs is 50 more than there were before. That number of jobs in a small town is proportionally much higher than if it was a small city. Besides, Apple is a business not an unemployment mitigator. Additionally, you don't know what else they may want to do there in the future. As for the residents, if they want jobs there, they had better go back to school. There are states with jobless rates higher than NC.
jragosta wrote:
"Taxes. While people focus on the tax breaks, they miss the fact that Apple will still be paying 50% of the property tax and 15% of the personal taxes for 10 years "
As opposed to the 100% of property taxes that would be paid by the former owners?
You are hung up on percentages.
The former owners paid taxes on farmland. They might have paid $1000 a year for their 100% (probably less...)
Apple pays taxes as a business. Their 100% liabilities might be $100,000 (I'm making that up)
If they pay 25% of the property taxes, they are still paying $25,000 which is $24,000 more than the previous owners.
If I had real numbers to work with, it might make more sense. But there is no way Apple's data center is in the same property tax bracket as the former owner's farmland.
If all the unemployed people are qualified for the jobs required at the data center, then I'm SURE Apple would have hired more of them. Like the article says, "Those jobs aren't for us. All we know is furniture." I'm sure those furniture people benefited in that Apple needs to furnish their data center. After that, the benefit is gone until new furniture is needed.
So for the town to really benefit, the people need to learn how to work those jobs. That's their job, not Apple's. Apple hires those who qualify for the job. That's what they need to do and that's their rights.
Apple is not the villain here. But the politicians, as usual, have failed in their duty by not properly funding schools and other services that are essential to developing a vibrant workforce. What part of this deal will help local kids or adults qualify for better jobs?
The tax break is not "free". It comes at the expense of government services such as education, at a time when education and other vital services are under the worst strain in almost a century. Where is the equation showing that the lost tax revenue is made up for, over the long term, by actual benefits?
What are you talking about?!
Maiden has a property tax rate of 0.4%. If Apple's data center is assessed at $1B, the property taxes due TO THE TOWN would be $4M/year. However, Apple negotiated a 50% reduction for 10 years...meaning they give the town $2M/year. That is $2 million per year the town didn't previously get. An additional $2 million per year to be spent "to provide such services as administration, finance and accounting administration, planning and zoning, police protection, fire protection, streets, legal services, sanitation, parks and recreation, library facilities and Town maintained cemeteries."
What part do you not understand? There is no lost tax revenue...Maiden went from getting effectively nothing (maybe $800/year?) for that land, to now getting $2,000,000/year for 10 years, then $4,000,000/year forever.
So, what is their actual amount Apple pays this county/small town in real dollars. Remember, the town and county would not otherwise get this money. I expect it is a lot more than the $1,400 / year I pay locally. Probably in the tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars, which is all gravy to them. If they wanted the same income without Apple they would have had to raise everyone else's property taxes.
Why don't you contact the town directly for the answers to these questions?
Why don't you, prior to making half-assed claims that only look at one side of the story? It's your type of business/political thinking that have gotten this country into the sad economic state it's in today.
I see some woolly thinking. It may be true and very reasonable that locals are unhappy that only fifty jobs came with the data centre so far, but to conclude from that that Apple should have made more jobs simply doesn't follow. The choice the community has is to have Apple there and accept fifty new jobs, or have Apple go elsewhere and not have fifty new jobs. To say they would rather have had a new factory with 500 jobs is certainly understandable, but that's not Apple's fault! All sorts of folk wisdom has been directed at this common misdirection of blame, from the saying about not looking a gift horse in the mouth to Æsop's fables.
Chris
I think this is the best summation of the situation on the thread.
Out of work people, especially in an area where many people are out of work are depressed and defeated. The truly motivated have already realised what the situation is, and have left town in search of new jobs or a new life. Some have switched professions, lowered expectations, and got a new, different job right there in town.
Those that haven't done either of these things, and remain in town, are basically depressed people with a skill set that isn't needed anymore. They are afraid of changing. They are waiting around for something to happen, probably (although it's extremely unlikely), they are waiting for the furniture industry to revive right there in the same town. They haven't yet got their minds around the fact that this isn't going to happen.
Depressed people living in a fantasy world, very often get their hopes up when something like this Apple development comes along. They imagine all kinds of rosy benefits that simply aren't going to happen. Then when they don't, they get even more depressed, or even angry because their little fantasy bubble popped yet again.
I think it really unlikely that Apple misrepresented the number of jobs they would be providing. These people have had their dreams shattered, but the dreams were of their own making. More like idle wishing than dreams really.
Folks, you, they, we all get what we ask for in the end.
research, ask question's, get answers. If you don't like what you hear, then don't do it! At least don't do it, and then complain that it's not what YOU thought it was going to be or do for you.
Skip
Why don't you, prior to making half-assed claims that only look at one side of the story? It's your type of business/political thinking that have gotten this country into the sad economic state it's in today.
Looks like concentricity has come up with the numbers and Maiden benefits by a massive amount because of the data center, even WITH a 50% tax deduction.
Now that Maiden has this windfall of money, your rage should be directed at how they spend it.
If they don't spend it on education, your issue is with with the town of Maiden, not Apple.
Why don't you, prior to making half-assed claims that only look at one side of the story? It's your type of business/political thinking that have gotten this country into the sad economic state it's in today.
You act like Apple personally bulldozed your shack in the woods before you could finish your manifesto. Next you'll be claiming that Apple is putting local Mom & Pop data centers out of business in Maiden, NC.
You're the one claiming the town is losing money from Apple's presence despite no article ever implying that is happening so if you want to make such wild claims the you should put in the effort to prove your crazyass hypothesis.
PS: I know for a fact Mugzy is personally responsible for the everything wrong with this country.
You are telling me 50 jobs that is all Apple offered. A dam disgrace indeed. This state is high in unemployment to begin with.Tim Cook and Apple better get their act together.
That's just stupid. So because they don't hire much you'd rather have no Apple data center and no tax revenues rather than have the data center and some revenues.
On top of that, you'd rather not get your foot in the door in an industry that is the wave of the future.
Cutting off your nose to spite your face.
In order to really know what the deal means in the short and long term, there are many variables that are unknown, at least from the information that was presented in the article. Things like how much did the construction aid the local community? How much in taxes did the couple that owned the property pay on the sale? What is the land being valued at for Apple and what taxes are they actually paying? What does it really mean for an 85% reduction in personal taxes? Is that just for Apple at the state level and/or for the employees in order to lure them to the area to work? How many kids will be added to the school system and who is paying for this? Who is building and maintaining the roads and or the other infrastructure that is needed for the plant? Will Apple having a plant here attract other business to the area?
My gut tells me that this probably is a good deal for the community overall but a more in depth analysis is really needed to be sure and I am not qualified to do that analysis. JMO though.
Neal
Maybe Apple could start making the furniture for the Apple Stores at that site. At least the locals would have those skills one would think.
That is a good idea. They make very high quality furniture in NC.
I think some people overlook the fact that 50 highly paid new employees even if from out of state are moving to NC and will be spending their income on homes, gas, grocery, cars, etc. There has to be some trickle down to the local economy.
At what point do we consider the downsides of the tax breaks on education and social services that benefit all the residents of the town and state?
I don't think you're that stupid, you just misunderstandd things. The tax breaks were granted to residents because they were getting a lot of new revenue from Apple. And if they dropped taxes on residents to the point that social services and benefits suffered, that is not Apple's fault. Apple does not set the tax rates for the town's residents.
i am probably on the same side of the political divide as you, but jeez shed the tired old knee-jerk reaction because you only make all of us look dumb.
Did those people ever stop to consider the tax breaks that city receives?
What tax breaks does the city receive? They are charging the taxes...
"According to the report, local authorities have discounted property taxes by 50 percent and personal taxes by 85 percent."
If THAT'S not a major benefit to everyone there, I don't know what is. Please Apple, come build a plant in my town. I wouldn't care if I work there or not if it means I'll get my property taxes chopped in half.
Why do you think everyone gets their taxes cut?
The property tax cuts are for the Apple property and the personal tax breaks are for the employees. This is part of the package to get them to build there.
Looks like concentricity has come up with the numbers and Maiden benefits by a massive amount because of the data center, even WITH a 50% tax deduction.
Now that Maiden has this windfall of money, your rage should be directed at how they spend it.
If they don't spend it on education, your issue is with with the town of Maiden, not Apple.
Not attacking you, but just pointing out to the innumerate who have been frothing at the mouth:
The 50% tax rate deduction given to Apple is meaningless.
The meaningful numbers are: The full tax rate applied to $0.00 without the datacenter vs Half Rate on a helluva lot more than zero dollars with the datacenter. (Assuming the full tax rate is a positive number.)
"
I'm sure the nature of the jobs at the tech center disappointed locals. But how many man-years of construction employment did it provide the city? The county? The state? After the tax cut, is apple paying NO local or state taxes, or just a reduced amount? How much? How much will it pay annually starting ten years from now?
Thank you, I read through the entire set of postings for this sort of response. Exactly. Construction jobs from a year long building project, fiber optic lines that needed to be brought into the low tech area, and the possibility about to be fulfilled that they will expand the center both in square footage and adding a solar farm. Leaf Solar is out of Jacksonville, FL ... so that is more jobs in the South.
Mammoth projects like this are often catalysts for other similar projects to spring up nearby. This is how the Research Triangle Park between Raleigh and Durham occurred. The NC Legislature is well aware of the billions that have been brought into the state from decisions made in 1959 to promote new tech.
Also, there is the relationship that NC is creating with Apple. Now Apple as a company is not going to have loyalty ... however, if there is a state that is easier to deal with than others, they will often make the business decision to do more things there. They have always had the DNA to manufacture things and SJ expressed a desire to manufacture things in the USA ... who knows, if they find it easy enough to do business in NC, that possibility might arise. There are are very large number of computer and other engineers in NC from the Research Triangle Park, Triad, UNC-Chapel Hill and NC State.
Its my guess that the NC Legislature is making just such a bet.
People who have been furniture makers their whole lives do not bring the skills necessary. It doesn't matter how many jobs Apple brings to this area the people who have lived there their whole lives do not have the skills. At least some one got jobs building it and the people who owned the land made out.
Apple did the right thing.
I agree with you, but thinking it was more that the town expected a influx of high tech jobs, people that would buy furnature.
I agree with you, but thinking it was more that the town expected a influx of high tech jobs, people that would buy furnature.
The furniture does not get sold locally. They make furniture for the really big distributors in the urban centers. 50 bedroom sets is not going to make a difference. The reason their unemployment is so high is because the customers in the urban centers are not buying high quality handcrafted hardwood furniture. If they are buying furniture at all it is from the cheap sellers like Ikea who specialize in disposable press board, laminated, some assembly required, junk.