For example, on my Evo 4G, the phone performs great. However, when I'm scrolling through a massive post on Google+, it will "stutter" every few seconds, as the UI thread is shared with the background processes. That stutter breaks the "immersion" that iOS users have.
Equally annoying is the "big empty space" you get when iOS tries to scroll into an area that the background process hasn't gotten around to rendering, then scroll back to an old area that has somehow been wiped out and needs to be re-rendered.
Not exactly true. One thing that Microsoft were always good at (eg XP and earlier) was a responsive UI. The processor may not have been fast, but the UI always was, and it was always very difficult explaining to people that a Mac running System 8/9 was actually faster, when the UI did drag. And badly.
So for instance, you could press on an icon and the Windows machine would be much quicker, however, when it came to rendering something in Photoshop, the Mac would blow the Windows machine away.
It was only when MS allowed woefully inadequate memory on Vista machines did they screw that responsiveness up, and we all know that that allowed the Mac back in.
I have observed that when some Windows XP kernel threads (ring 0) gets scheduled constantly on all cores, Windows XP user input responsiveness will go to shit. The mouse cursor starts "skipping" across the screen because it is lagging so badly. Pressing Ctrl-Alt-Del will clear the desktop but the window to let you lock the screen or open task manager will never appear. If you click anything, it won't register for something like 1+ minutes! Anyway, I can repeatly cause this problem when running a particular plug-in, which I avoid using now.
I'm have noticed that Apple's close integration with the hardware had allowed them to take better advantage of that hardware. For example, the old Classic Mac OS sampled mouse input on every vertical retrace of the screen, which is 60Hz, while Windows OS originally didn't even require a mouse to use (though people rarely used it that way), oweing to it's DOS roots. And Windows mouse sampling was limited by the speed of the original PS/2 or serial ports that were used to attach mice, back in the 90s. Something like 40Hz, but it had nothing to do with how often the monitor image would refresh, so before USB mice were common, even mouse movement wasn't entirely smooth on Windows, even if it was usually imperceptible.
Equally annoying is the "big empty space" you get when iOS tries to scroll into an area that the background process hasn't gotten around to rendering, then scroll back to an old area that has somehow been wiped out and needs to be re-rendered.
Yep, that's true. There really isn't a winning solution; I just perceive the problem on my end as worse. I'm sure I'd be equally annoyed if things didn't render until I didn't touch them.
The poster I quoted earlier "Apple invented the touchscreen UI, Google is just trying to steal it" Also, there are plenty of Apple evangelists out there (particularly those defending all these ridiculous IP cases) who claim Apple invented all of the i-device technology that has become overwhelmingly popular in the past 4-5 years. Don't get me wrong, Apple has definitely made strides in applying the tech that is available.
I wrote the post. I also posted about Microsoft Tablet PC. Look at Microsoft Tablet PC carefully. User 'touches' the tablet's window elements like menus, scroll bars, buttons. That is all. Apple invented the touchscreen UI that you can move your finger on the screen to do something like unlock the phone. This is actually an extension of iPod scroll wheel that you can move your finger around to scroll the song list.
I wrote the post. I also posted about Microsoft Tablet PC. Look at Microsoft Tablet PC carefully. User 'touches' the tablet's window elements like menus, scroll bars, buttons. That is all. Apple invented the touchscreen UI that you can move your finger on the screen to do something like unlock the phone. This is actually an extension of iPod scroll wheel that you can move your finger around to scroll the song list.
A man wiser than I once said:
"When you find yourself in a hole, the best thing to do is to stop digging".
I wrote the post. I also posted about Microsoft Tablet PC. Look at Microsoft Tablet PC carefully. User 'touches' the tablet's window elements like menus, scroll bars, buttons. That is all. Apple invented the touchscreen UI that you can move your finger on the screen to do something like unlock the phone. This is actually an extension of iPod scroll wheel that you can move your finger around to scroll the song list.
What you're saying is Apple was the only company to think "Hey, you know what, we can make the DISPLAY change in response to touch input!" I used a windows mobile phone for many years and while the "touch" implementation was crap (mostly intended for stylus use) I definitely remember the UI responded to touch input. Apple made the response time tremendously better (near real-time). THAT is all. Aside, there was swipe to unlock before iphone. I won't bother looking it up for you.
OSX was designed around the Mach kernel, which NeXt Step used. OSX, however, is not NeXt although it borrows some of the design elements of the GUI. The whole genius of NeXt was it's initial design to be scalable and usable on many different architectures by using the Mach kernel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alandail
Funny out pre iPhone is used as a distinction when the iPhone is OS X, which is NeXTStep, which was designed in the 80s.
Certainly Apple designed Cocoa Touch specifically for the iPhone, but much of what is discussed here (i.e. caching object bitmaps) are things NeXTStep 1.0 did correctly. Which enabled things like live scrolling, live window movement, etc on the desktop with the same fluidity as the UI on iOS devices.
What you're saying is Apple was the only company to think "Hey, you know what, we can make the DISPLAY change in response to touch input!" I used a windows mobile phone for many years and while the "touch" implementation was crap (mostly intended for stylus use) I definitely remember the UI responded to touch input. Apple made the response time tremendously better (near real-time). THAT is all. Aside, there was swipe to unlock before iphone. I won't bother looking it up for you.
Did you understand my point? What I mean is iOS responds to user move finger on the screen. You said the UI responded to touch input. This can be different from responding to moving finger. Without this Angry Birds will not function.
True, but it wasn't associated with an icon. You just swiped the phone on the bottom of the screen. Apple tied the swipe gesture to an icon. That is what Apple was given the patent for. Not the swipe to unlock, but the swipe to unlock tied to a GUI element.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo42
Aside, there was swipe to unlock before iphone. I won't bother looking it up for you.
Look at this video. About halfway through, this phone is using a swipe to unlock feature. It predates the iPhone. However, the difference with the iPhone is you don't have to remember the gesture because the phone shows you what to do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tzeshan
I wrote the post. I also posted about Microsoft Tablet PC. Look at Microsoft Tablet PC carefully. User 'touches' the tablet's window elements like menus, scroll bars, buttons. That is all. Apple invented the touchscreen UI that you can move your finger on the screen to do something like unlock the phone. This is actually an extension of iPod scroll wheel that you can move your finger around to scroll the song list.
Look at this video. About halfway through, this phone is using a swipe to unlock feature. It predates the iPhone. However, the difference with the iPhone is you don't have to remember the gesture because the phone shows you what to do.
This is why I said Angry Bird would not function. Because you touch the bird (an icon) before moving the finger. Before iOS, Microsoft Tablet PC does not support it. Google steal it from iOS.
I agree with you and Android was obviously a rush job upon release (and suffers from it today) but from a business standpoint I feel they had no choice but to release early in order to even compete against the new juggernaut (Apple)
It's not iOS that would have killed them. It's Microsoft and Windows Phone.
As much as people keep thinking that Google is worried about Apple. It's not. Google is worried about MS. Androids get people on and locked in to the Google ecosystem. After that, even if you go iPhone, you'll probably still use GMail, Google Maps, Google Search, etc. But if you're a Windows Phone user, you might not use Google at all. That's what Google was worried about.
For all their disputes, most iPhones sold will still help put Google services in more hands. Windows Phones do not.
Did you understand my point? What I mean is iOS responds to user move finger on the screen. You said the UI responded to touch input. This can be different from responding to moving finger. Without this Angry Birds will not function.
So what you are really saying is Apple refined the touch/response process to a more user friendly level. That's a lot different than saying "Apple invented the touch UI". Maybe it is semantics to you but to me (and others) it's a world of difference.
This is why I said Angry Bird would not function. Because you touch the bird (an icon) before moving the finger. Before iOS, Microsoft Tablet PC does not support it. Google steal it from iOS.
You're just wrong here. There were "real time" responses to touch input before the iPhone. They just sucked. And according to this thread, they still do. So if Google mimic is so poor how again have they committed theft?
In most cases, it's your complete disrespect for anyone who chooses to use products that you yourself don't choose to use (namely Android products) that shows ignorance.
Of course it's disrespect, that is my intent and goal. I have no use for Android trolls and Apple haters and I do happen to think that Android is an inferior platform.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wakefinance
As far as ignorance of the product goes, you demonstrated that in the portion of your post that I quoted the first time. Here you claim that Android devices respond "seconds after you press something." Ignorance. "...realtime music apps is something else that doesn't exist on Android, because of the terrible latency." Ignorance.
Of course "seconds" doesn't apply to everything. I am a hyperbolic person, that's how I roll, but I can easily give an example of "seconds" which I recently saw, making that statement true. On the engadget video of a Kindle Fire some person repeatedly had to tap on the same icon multiple times to get it to register. That literally took seconds. That kind of non responsiveness is something that has never happened on my iPad.
As for the audio and music problem, can you link me to a realtime Android piano or guitar that actually works without any lag, like there is on iOS?
iOS is wonderful for music apps, thanks to core audio. core midi etc. I know a lot about music apps and use them often.
Would you like me to link you to developers on a music creation forum talking about how Android is problematic with music creation software, and where they explain why in great technical detail?
It seems that it is you who is ignorant of music creation apps on Android. There is currently a huge lag, making them unusable.
Yeah it is not like modern (resistive or capacitive) touchscreen technology but the intended use is the same albeit issues with dirty sensors and poor resolution. My point is people need to stop acting like Apple created the touchscreen user interface in general. Too much credit goes to falsely implying Apple has invented technologies when the real strength lies in evolving old stale ideas and improving their function.
I completely agree that Apple gets undue credit for "inventing" things that they did not.
By taking their time to do things right and proper the first time they simply set a standard of excellence for existing technologies.
By the same token, Microsoft and Google did not invent the concept of ripping off other peoples work and then implementing poorly... they just set the standard.
Unless you are trying to argue that Google is evil and therefore it is a good idea to make contentless shit-stirring posts on AI, I have no idea what you are going for.How about taking the real debate to its own thread, then? This one is about UI lag in Android.
Hmm...
Anyone into tech will instantly recognize I was talking about ui lag. Simply the real reason behind the issues instead of...
Well never mind. Seems Gon is gone and took its stupid flag waving for an ad company with them.
2) reasons why Apple and Steve (who are usually litigious) decided to be functionally retarded in this case and allow it to happen without bringing evidence of such duplicitous action to court and pretty much ending Android with one move.
Oh, that one's easy and has been well covered for years now. Apple has elected to point its lawsuits at the targets where the money enters the system, i.e. at the hardware makers that sell the questionable products, as opposed to at the software maker that isn't really making any money from them (at least not directly). This is the right call from a litigious point of view.
Oh, that one's easy and has been well covered for years now. Apple has elected to point its lawsuits at the targets where the money enters the system, i.e. at the hardware makers that sell the questionable products, as opposed to at the software maker that isn't really making any money from them (at least not directly). This is the right call from a litigious point of view.
Thompson
So instead of presenting the evidence that so many Apple fanatics feel they've seen which shows that Schmidt double crossed Apple they elect to go after a few OEMs for a few IP infringement cases (most avoidable) to bring down Google?
In which ways does the Galaxy Nexus or the Galaxy S II lag so badly it makes the whole device suck?
I have brought up that issue in other threads involving the Galaxy S 2, in answer to the usual blind claim of "technical superiority" of the Galaxy S 2 over the iPhone 4S.
It is good that this article backs up exactly what I described based on using the device and provides an answer based on fundamental flaws with Android which I have noticed on every Android device I have used, going back to the HTC Magic.
Comments
For example, on my Evo 4G, the phone performs great. However, when I'm scrolling through a massive post on Google+, it will "stutter" every few seconds, as the UI thread is shared with the background processes. That stutter breaks the "immersion" that iOS users have.
Equally annoying is the "big empty space" you get when iOS tries to scroll into an area that the background process hasn't gotten around to rendering, then scroll back to an old area that has somehow been wiped out and needs to be re-rendered.
Not exactly true. One thing that Microsoft were always good at (eg XP and earlier) was a responsive UI. The processor may not have been fast, but the UI always was, and it was always very difficult explaining to people that a Mac running System 8/9 was actually faster, when the UI did drag. And badly.
So for instance, you could press on an icon and the Windows machine would be much quicker, however, when it came to rendering something in Photoshop, the Mac would blow the Windows machine away.
It was only when MS allowed woefully inadequate memory on Vista machines did they screw that responsiveness up, and we all know that that allowed the Mac back in.
I have observed that when some Windows XP kernel threads (ring 0) gets scheduled constantly on all cores, Windows XP user input responsiveness will go to shit. The mouse cursor starts "skipping" across the screen because it is lagging so badly. Pressing Ctrl-Alt-Del will clear the desktop but the window to let you lock the screen or open task manager will never appear. If you click anything, it won't register for something like 1+ minutes! Anyway, I can repeatly cause this problem when running a particular plug-in, which I avoid using now.
I'm have noticed that Apple's close integration with the hardware had allowed them to take better advantage of that hardware. For example, the old Classic Mac OS sampled mouse input on every vertical retrace of the screen, which is 60Hz, while Windows OS originally didn't even require a mouse to use (though people rarely used it that way), oweing to it's DOS roots. And Windows mouse sampling was limited by the speed of the original PS/2 or serial ports that were used to attach mice, back in the 90s. Something like 40Hz, but it had nothing to do with how often the monitor image would refresh, so before USB mice were common, even mouse movement wasn't entirely smooth on Windows, even if it was usually imperceptible.
Equally annoying is the "big empty space" you get when iOS tries to scroll into an area that the background process hasn't gotten around to rendering, then scroll back to an old area that has somehow been wiped out and needs to be re-rendered.
Yep, that's true. There really isn't a winning solution; I just perceive the problem on my end as worse. I'm sure I'd be equally annoyed if things didn't render until I didn't touch them.
The poster I quoted earlier "Apple invented the touchscreen UI, Google is just trying to steal it" Also, there are plenty of Apple evangelists out there (particularly those defending all these ridiculous IP cases) who claim Apple invented all of the i-device technology that has become overwhelmingly popular in the past 4-5 years. Don't get me wrong, Apple has definitely made strides in applying the tech that is available.
I wrote the post. I also posted about Microsoft Tablet PC. Look at Microsoft Tablet PC carefully. User 'touches' the tablet's window elements like menus, scroll bars, buttons. That is all. Apple invented the touchscreen UI that you can move your finger on the screen to do something like unlock the phone. This is actually an extension of iPod scroll wheel that you can move your finger around to scroll the song list.
I wrote the post. I also posted about Microsoft Tablet PC. Look at Microsoft Tablet PC carefully. User 'touches' the tablet's window elements like menus, scroll bars, buttons. That is all. Apple invented the touchscreen UI that you can move your finger on the screen to do something like unlock the phone. This is actually an extension of iPod scroll wheel that you can move your finger around to scroll the song list.
A man wiser than I once said:
"When you find yourself in a hole, the best thing to do is to stop digging".
I wrote the post. I also posted about Microsoft Tablet PC. Look at Microsoft Tablet PC carefully. User 'touches' the tablet's window elements like menus, scroll bars, buttons. That is all. Apple invented the touchscreen UI that you can move your finger on the screen to do something like unlock the phone. This is actually an extension of iPod scroll wheel that you can move your finger around to scroll the song list.
What you're saying is Apple was the only company to think "Hey, you know what, we can make the DISPLAY change in response to touch input!" I used a windows mobile phone for many years and while the "touch" implementation was crap (mostly intended for stylus use) I definitely remember the UI responded to touch input. Apple made the response time tremendously better (near real-time). THAT is all. Aside, there was swipe to unlock before iphone. I won't bother looking it up for you.
Funny out pre iPhone is used as a distinction when the iPhone is OS X, which is NeXTStep, which was designed in the 80s.
Certainly Apple designed Cocoa Touch specifically for the iPhone, but much of what is discussed here (i.e. caching object bitmaps) are things NeXTStep 1.0 did correctly. Which enabled things like live scrolling, live window movement, etc on the desktop with the same fluidity as the UI on iOS devices.
What you're saying is Apple was the only company to think "Hey, you know what, we can make the DISPLAY change in response to touch input!" I used a windows mobile phone for many years and while the "touch" implementation was crap (mostly intended for stylus use) I definitely remember the UI responded to touch input. Apple made the response time tremendously better (near real-time). THAT is all. Aside, there was swipe to unlock before iphone. I won't bother looking it up for you.
Did you understand my point? What I mean is iOS responds to user move finger on the screen. You said the UI responded to touch input. This can be different from responding to moving finger. Without this Angry Birds will not function.
Aside, there was swipe to unlock before iphone. I won't bother looking it up for you.
I wrote the post. I also posted about Microsoft Tablet PC. Look at Microsoft Tablet PC carefully. User 'touches' the tablet's window elements like menus, scroll bars, buttons. That is all. Apple invented the touchscreen UI that you can move your finger on the screen to do something like unlock the phone. This is actually an extension of iPod scroll wheel that you can move your finger around to scroll the song list.
Look at this video. About halfway through, this phone is using a swipe to unlock feature. It predates the iPhone. However, the difference with the iPhone is you don't have to remember the gesture because the phone shows you what to do.
This is why I said Angry Bird would not function. Because you touch the bird (an icon) before moving the finger. Before iOS, Microsoft Tablet PC does not support it. Google steal it from iOS.
I agree with you and Android was obviously a rush job upon release (and suffers from it today) but from a business standpoint I feel they had no choice but to release early in order to even compete against the new juggernaut (Apple)
It's not iOS that would have killed them. It's Microsoft and Windows Phone.
As much as people keep thinking that Google is worried about Apple. It's not. Google is worried about MS. Androids get people on and locked in to the Google ecosystem. After that, even if you go iPhone, you'll probably still use GMail, Google Maps, Google Search, etc. But if you're a Windows Phone user, you might not use Google at all. That's what Google was worried about.
For all their disputes, most iPhones sold will still help put Google services in more hands. Windows Phones do not.
Did you understand my point? What I mean is iOS responds to user move finger on the screen. You said the UI responded to touch input. This can be different from responding to moving finger. Without this Angry Birds will not function.
So what you are really saying is Apple refined the touch/response process to a more user friendly level. That's a lot different than saying "Apple invented the touch UI". Maybe it is semantics to you but to me (and others) it's a world of difference.
This is why I said Angry Bird would not function. Because you touch the bird (an icon) before moving the finger. Before iOS, Microsoft Tablet PC does not support it. Google steal it from iOS.
You're just wrong here. There were "real time" responses to touch input before the iPhone. They just sucked. And according to this thread, they still do. So if Google mimic is so poor how again have they committed theft?
In most cases, it's your complete disrespect for anyone who chooses to use products that you yourself don't choose to use (namely Android products) that shows ignorance.
Of course it's disrespect, that is my intent and goal. I have no use for Android trolls and Apple haters and I do happen to think that Android is an inferior platform.
As far as ignorance of the product goes, you demonstrated that in the portion of your post that I quoted the first time. Here you claim that Android devices respond "seconds after you press something." Ignorance. "...realtime music apps is something else that doesn't exist on Android, because of the terrible latency." Ignorance.
Of course "seconds" doesn't apply to everything. I am a hyperbolic person, that's how I roll, but I can easily give an example of "seconds" which I recently saw, making that statement true. On the engadget video of a Kindle Fire some person repeatedly had to tap on the same icon multiple times to get it to register. That literally took seconds. That kind of non responsiveness is something that has never happened on my iPad.
As for the audio and music problem, can you link me to a realtime Android piano or guitar that actually works without any lag, like there is on iOS?
iOS is wonderful for music apps, thanks to core audio. core midi etc. I know a lot about music apps and use them often.
Would you like me to link you to developers on a music creation forum talking about how Android is problematic with music creation software, and where they explain why in great technical detail?
It seems that it is you who is ignorant of music creation apps on Android. There is currently a huge lag, making them unusable.
Yeah it is not like modern (resistive or capacitive) touchscreen technology but the intended use is the same albeit issues with dirty sensors and poor resolution. My point is people need to stop acting like Apple created the touchscreen user interface in general. Too much credit goes to falsely implying Apple has invented technologies when the real strength lies in evolving old stale ideas and improving their function.
I completely agree that Apple gets undue credit for "inventing" things that they did not.
By taking their time to do things right and proper the first time they simply set a standard of excellence for existing technologies.
By the same token, Microsoft and Google did not invent the concept of ripping off other peoples work and then implementing poorly... they just set the standard.
Unless you are trying to argue that Google is evil and therefore it is a good idea to make contentless shit-stirring posts on AI, I have no idea what you are going for.How about taking the real debate to its own thread, then? This one is about UI lag in Android.
Hmm...
Anyone into tech will instantly recognize I was talking about ui lag. Simply the real reason behind the issues instead of...
Well never mind. Seems Gon is gone and took its stupid flag waving for an ad company with them.
Rest of the comment thread was a lovely read.
2) reasons why Apple and Steve (who are usually litigious) decided to be functionally retarded in this case and allow it to happen without bringing evidence of such duplicitous action to court and pretty much ending Android with one move.
Oh, that one's easy and has been well covered for years now. Apple has elected to point its lawsuits at the targets where the money enters the system, i.e. at the hardware makers that sell the questionable products, as opposed to at the software maker that isn't really making any money from them (at least not directly). This is the right call from a litigious point of view.
Thompson
Oh, that one's easy and has been well covered for years now. Apple has elected to point its lawsuits at the targets where the money enters the system, i.e. at the hardware makers that sell the questionable products, as opposed to at the software maker that isn't really making any money from them (at least not directly). This is the right call from a litigious point of view.
Thompson
So instead of presenting the evidence that so many Apple fanatics feel they've seen which shows that Schmidt double crossed Apple they elect to go after a few OEMs for a few IP infringement cases (most avoidable) to bring down Google?
So you too are saying Apple is stupid?
Shocking.
In which ways does the Galaxy Nexus or the Galaxy S II lag so badly it makes the whole device suck?
I have brought up that issue in other threads involving the Galaxy S 2, in answer to the usual blind claim of "technical superiority" of the Galaxy S 2 over the iPhone 4S.
It is good that this article backs up exactly what I described based on using the device and provides an answer based on fundamental flaws with Android which I have noticed on every Android device I have used, going back to the HTC Magic.