Reasoned and thoughtful reactions seem not to be in fashion these days on planet Earth do they? There is no need to be obnoxious in your response. Like most things in life there is no absolute right or wrong in this. There could well be a situation where a country made such onerous demands Apple would be better to walk away then again there are many situations where Apple and others are obviously better adapting to local laws and customs.
I disagree, the obnoxious response on his part was to prove a point to EyeNsteinNo. What does this have anything to do with absolute right or wrongs? What this has to do with is EyeNsteinNo arrogance. Very irritating arrogance. Do you really honestly think EyeNsteinNo point was that Italy/EU was making an onerous demand of Apple?
I'm curious to know how Apple is going to settle this little matter.
They pay the fine. It's not really a big thing for them since they make that much money in one day just in the EU. Probably more than that money even.
Since the issue seems to be that the staff in the stores in Italy don't seem to understand the local laws and how they relate to Apple Care they will have the legal department assist in writing up a clear explanation which they will send out to all the areas in the EU and educate the staff. Then the staff can correctly explain to customers how the whole thing works and the issue is solved
Italy is in the shitter, economically speaking, like much of Europe.
The solution to the law is for Apple to raise their prices in all of the countries affected by this extended warranty. Make EU people pay even more for their Apple devices. Apple does not need cheap Europeans buying their stuff. They should pay the extra costs associated with their law, just like they have to pay out of the ass in extra taxes, VAT and all other sorts of EU nonsense.
The price of Apple devices should rise by at least 5% in all EU countries in order to pay for the costs of getting an extended warranty. Fair is fair and everybody should pay their fair share for their services and goods received. Those Euroheads who don't like it can always buy Android or some other crap.
It's amazing how all your posts are always full of ignorant hatred all the time!
It's amazing how all your posts are always full of ignorant hatred all the time!
It's called business 101 buddy.
Nothing is free in this world and if there is a company making a product that is offered in different regions and if that product comes with an extended warranty in region B, while region A only has a normal warranty, then the cost of the extra service provided will be passed along to the consumers in region B one way or the other.
I think Italy needs Apple more than Apple needs Italy.
in your dreams
if apple shut down tomorrow there'd be some moaning, whining and gnashing of teeth, especially from its suppliers in the far east, and the world would carry on as if nothing had happened
apple is an insignificant speck in comparison to any developed economy, even one tanking as badly as italy
If a 2 year warranty is common practice, why is Apple being fined for not publishing it? What consumer wouldn't know how long an item was covered.
Seems like a questionably legal attempt to squeeze some "protection money" from a store owner. Just like the 'good old days.' I guess some old habits never change.
I am not well-versed in international business law, but does anyone think that Apple is "legally" liable for payment of this fine? If so, do you think they'll just cough up the money and move on? Seriously?
Just as a reminder to anyone saying that the EU is in a big shit. It's true, but it's the US with their dramatic lack of regulation that put us into this, and the only reason the US are not in a crisis is because you increased your debt of more than one trillion dollars. If we had done the same thing there wouldn't be any problem. To this day, the US have almost 3 times the debt of the EU in percentage of income (0,4 years for EU, 1,1 years for US). So it's easy to criticize when your country is responsible for this crisis and just took money out of nowhere. I would worry more about your future, really.
Nothing is free in this world and if there is a company making a product that is offered in different regions and if that product comes with an extended warranty in region B, while region A only has a normal warranty, then the cost of the extra service provided will be passed along to the consumers in region B one way or the other.
While I agree on the business part (not the tone), you are wrong in assuming that this is not already the case. Apple charges Europeans (and Australians and Britons and and and) much more than the exchange rate plus common exchange rate variance risk since, well, forever. Apple does price these local factors in. If they fail to train their staff appropriately, then they will have to (and certainly will) live with fines like this.
If an Apple Store staff member says: "Sorry, you purchased this product 13 months ago, and you will now have to prove that the defect was already present on the day you bought it", Apple is smelling like a rose and the EU is happy. If he/she says "Sorry, only customers who have purchased Apple Care are eligible for service after 12 months", they are fined.
Interestingly, the second statement is consumer-friendly, as it shows the customer a valid way to get an extended warranty, while the EU-mandated implied warranty is (in this case) just a smoke screen. The 24 months implied warranty was mainly established to stop resellers from importing cheap (and sometimes dangerous) crap. The fact that grave design/manufacturing defects have to be resolved for 24 months free of charge have effectively stopped most imports of unsafe and poorly designed articles. This is why the law is (in some cases) good. It even protects serious companies (like Apple), as they do not have to compete with certain cheap imports.
Apple has obviously failed here to educate its staff. If intentionally, negligently or accidentally... I can't say. But the fine is certainly assuming the latter. So, no reason to complain.
For example, Applecare for a $500 iPad is $79 in the US. That's about 16% of the entire cost of the product. If somebody in another region is essentially getting Applecare for free, then I would sure hope that they're paying for it in added initial costs.
Just as a reminder to anyone saying that the EU is in a big shit. It's true, but it's the US with their dramatic lack of regulation that put us into this, and the only reason the US are not in a crisis is because you increased your debt of more than one trillion dollars. If we had done the same thing there wouldn't be any problem. To this day, the US have almost 3 times the debt of the EU in percentage of income (0,4 years for EU, 1,1 years for US). So it's easy to criticize when your country is responsible for this crisis and just took money out of nowhere. I would worry more about your future, really.
Not trying to get into a fight, but I personally subscribe to the notion that there's far too much regulation in the world. Each country's government is trying to do too much. But to correct you, the US is very much in crisis. There's a $15 tillion dollar budget liability, and that's not even countying the $35-50 trillion dollars in promises to Medicare and Social Security. I am very worried about our future.
If an Apple Store staff member says: "Sorry, you purchased this product 13 months ago, and you will now have to prove that the defect was already present on the day you bought it", Apple is smelling like a rose and the EU is happy. If he/she says "Sorry, only customers who have purchased Apple Care are eligible for service after 12 months", they are fined.
Congratulations, dreyfus2, for your excellent , well argumented and informative posts. Your example demonstrates that Apple stores vendors should have training on legal matters, which is far from being obvious, given the complexity of all possible situations....
On the other hand, I feel this judgment is unfair to Apple, because in the two cases I had a problem with an Apple device, I had no problem to get it fixed (in one case , by replacement with a brand new product). I even had a case where I had subscribed a warranty from the seller (FNAC, which was not directly Apple). It turned out that activating that warranty was problematic for me (I would have lost all data on my machine). Apple accepted to replace the motherboard of my machine (a MacBook) at no cost (at that time I had no AppleCare protection, but this was not even necessary). From this day on, I subscribe to Apple care, and nothing else ...
I'm italian (and I guess you are going to note it by my english ) and article is not fully correct.
Italian law oblige sellers to warrant sold products for two years (and not makers).
Problems for Apple are concerned their stores (retail and online). But if I bought an Apple product from another store, there is any legal problem.
Anyway, this in an european law and I suppose Apple needs Europe
I'm curious to know how Apple is going to settle this little matter. Abroad it could seem a little problem, but I'm sure that other companies could be take advantage from this situation.
Byee
Pierluigi
Simple. They'll pay the fine, re-educate their sales people, train their managers, and change a few words in their marketing materials.
Basically, it comes down to how they're promoting their products - not the product itself. It will be very easy to fix.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClemyNX
That regulation actually applies to all EU countries. And in EU we can do whatever law we want, no need for your approval, thanks.
Apart from all the racist diminishing bigotry in here, Apple didn't respect local regulations and was fined that small sum. EU says all products have a 2 year guarantee, and Apple misled buyers by making them believe that Applecare covered 2 years more than the normal guarantee, when in reality it overlapped it.
So it's a simple misunderstanding that Apple can fix by changing their marketing materials and re-training their sales people and managers. Not that big of a deal.
So it's a simple misunderstanding that Apple can fix by changing their marketing materials and re-training their sales people and managers. Not that big of a deal.
Exactly, it's no big deal, Apple made a mistake and is going to pay the fine. That's all.
First of all, this is an European directive, incorporated in the Italian law.
It states that all goods bought by consumers (so, not companies) must have a warranty of 2 years offered by the *seller* (please note: NOT the producer).
Apple, by itself, offers an additional 1-year warranty as the producer.
As long as you buy Apple products from a 3rd party reseller (an Apple Premium Reseller, for example), you get the 1-year warranty from Apple AND the 2-year warranty from the seller (of course, Apple's warranty is better, as they replace your product in quick times).
The problem, however, arises when you buy DIRECTLY from Apple, via the Apple Store Online or in a Apple Store (one of the 9 we have in Italy).
In this case, the seller coincides with the producer, so Apple should offer the 2-year warranty.
In the web site, or in a Apple Store, however, it's nowhere written that the warranty lasts 2 years in this case.
That's the origin of the fine!
Last october, also, the civil court of Vicenza (a city in Northern Italy) stated clearly that.
A student bought a MacBook Pro from Apple, and it broke after 1 year and half. Apple refused to offer free repair, and the court condemned them.
PS: To those saying "Apple Care is not necessary anymore, then"... Well, it's necessary to get the second year of warranty from Apple when you buy from a 3rd party seller. So the warranty is from Apple and not another company...
PS2: Apologize for mistakes. Speaking about laws in another language is not that easy
PS3: By the way... 900,000 € are pennies for Apple!
Comments
Reasoned and thoughtful reactions seem not to be in fashion these days on planet Earth do they? There is no need to be obnoxious in your response. Like most things in life there is no absolute right or wrong in this. There could well be a situation where a country made such onerous demands Apple would be better to walk away then again there are many situations where Apple and others are obviously better adapting to local laws and customs.
I disagree, the obnoxious response on his part was to prove a point to EyeNsteinNo. What does this have anything to do with absolute right or wrongs? What this has to do with is EyeNsteinNo arrogance. Very irritating arrogance. Do you really honestly think EyeNsteinNo point was that Italy/EU was making an onerous demand of Apple?
I'm curious to know how Apple is going to settle this little matter.
They pay the fine. It's not really a big thing for them since they make that much money in one day just in the EU. Probably more than that money even.
Since the issue seems to be that the staff in the stores in Italy don't seem to understand the local laws and how they relate to Apple Care they will have the legal department assist in writing up a clear explanation which they will send out to all the areas in the EU and educate the staff. Then the staff can correctly explain to customers how the whole thing works and the issue is solved
Italy is in the shitter, economically speaking, like much of Europe.
The solution to the law is for Apple to raise their prices in all of the countries affected by this extended warranty. Make EU people pay even more for their Apple devices. Apple does not need cheap Europeans buying their stuff. They should pay the extra costs associated with their law, just like they have to pay out of the ass in extra taxes, VAT and all other sorts of EU nonsense.
The price of Apple devices should rise by at least 5% in all EU countries in order to pay for the costs of getting an extended warranty. Fair is fair and everybody should pay their fair share for their services and goods received. Those Euroheads who don't like it can always buy Android or some other crap.
It's amazing how all your posts are always full of ignorant hatred all the time!
It's amazing how all your posts are always full of ignorant hatred all the time!
It's called business 101 buddy.
Nothing is free in this world and if there is a company making a product that is offered in different regions and if that product comes with an extended warranty in region B, while region A only has a normal warranty, then the cost of the extra service provided will be passed along to the consumers in region B one way or the other.
I think Italy needs Apple more than Apple needs Italy.
in your dreams
if apple shut down tomorrow there'd be some moaning, whining and gnashing of teeth, especially from its suppliers in the far east, and the world would carry on as if nothing had happened
apple is an insignificant speck in comparison to any developed economy, even one tanking as badly as italy
Seems like a questionably legal attempt to squeeze some "protection money" from a store owner. Just like the 'good old days.' I guess some old habits never change.
I am not well well-versed in international business law, but does anyone think that Apple is "legally" liable for payment of this fine?
If Apple was supposed to give a 2 year warranty and wasn't honoring that, then yeah, they're liable.
If so, do you think they'll just cough up the money and move on?
Of course they will. They have to.
It's called business 101 buddy.
Nothing is free in this world and if there is a company making a product that is offered in different regions and if that product comes with an extended warranty in region B, while region A only has a normal warranty, then the cost of the extra service provided will be passed along to the consumers in region B one way or the other.
While I agree on the business part (not the tone), you are wrong in assuming that this is not already the case. Apple charges Europeans (and Australians and Britons and and and) much more than the exchange rate plus common exchange rate variance risk since, well, forever. Apple does price these local factors in. If they fail to train their staff appropriately, then they will have to (and certainly will) live with fines like this.
If an Apple Store staff member says: "Sorry, you purchased this product 13 months ago, and you will now have to prove that the defect was already present on the day you bought it", Apple is smelling like a rose and the EU is happy. If he/she says "Sorry, only customers who have purchased Apple Care are eligible for service after 12 months", they are fined.
Interestingly, the second statement is consumer-friendly, as it shows the customer a valid way to get an extended warranty, while the EU-mandated implied warranty is (in this case) just a smoke screen. The 24 months implied warranty was mainly established to stop resellers from importing cheap (and sometimes dangerous) crap. The fact that grave design/manufacturing defects have to be resolved for 24 months free of charge have effectively stopped most imports of unsafe and poorly designed articles. This is why the law is (in some cases) good. It even protects serious companies (like Apple), as they do not have to compete with certain cheap imports.
Apple has obviously failed here to educate its staff. If intentionally, negligently or accidentally... I can't say. But the fine is certainly assuming the latter. So, no reason to complain.
Apple does price these local factors in.
I hope that they do.
For example, Applecare for a $500 iPad is $79 in the US. That's about 16% of the entire cost of the product. If somebody in another region is essentially getting Applecare for free, then I would sure hope that they're paying for it in added initial costs.
Just as a reminder to anyone saying that the EU is in a big shit. It's true, but it's the US with their dramatic lack of regulation that put us into this, and the only reason the US are not in a crisis is because you increased your debt of more than one trillion dollars. If we had done the same thing there wouldn't be any problem. To this day, the US have almost 3 times the debt of the EU in percentage of income (0,4 years for EU, 1,1 years for US). So it's easy to criticize when your country is responsible for this crisis and just took money out of nowhere. I would worry more about your future, really.
Not trying to get into a fight, but I personally subscribe to the notion that there's far too much regulation in the world. Each country's government is trying to do too much. But to correct you, the US is very much in crisis. There's a $15 tillion dollar budget liability, and that's not even countying the $35-50 trillion dollars in promises to Medicare and Social Security. I am very worried about our future.
If an Apple Store staff member says: "Sorry, you purchased this product 13 months ago, and you will now have to prove that the defect was already present on the day you bought it", Apple is smelling like a rose and the EU is happy. If he/she says "Sorry, only customers who have purchased Apple Care are eligible for service after 12 months", they are fined.
Congratulations, dreyfus2, for your excellent , well argumented and informative posts. Your example demonstrates that Apple stores vendors should have training on legal matters, which is far from being obvious, given the complexity of all possible situations....
On the other hand, I feel this judgment is unfair to Apple, because in the two cases I had a problem with an Apple device, I had no problem to get it fixed (in one case , by replacement with a brand new product). I even had a case where I had subscribed a warranty from the seller (FNAC, which was not directly Apple). It turned out that activating that warranty was problematic for me (I would have lost all data on my machine). Apple accepted to replace the motherboard of my machine (a MacBook) at no cost (at that time I had no AppleCare protection, but this was not even necessary). From this day on, I subscribe to Apple care, and nothing else ...
Hello to everyone.
I'm italian (and I guess you are going to note it by my english
Italian law oblige sellers to warrant sold products for two years (and not makers).
Problems for Apple are concerned their stores (retail and online). But if I bought an Apple product from another store, there is any legal problem.
Anyway, this in an european law and I suppose Apple needs Europe
I'm curious to know how Apple is going to settle this little matter. Abroad it could seem a little problem, but I'm sure that other companies could be take advantage from this situation.
Byee
Pierluigi
Simple. They'll pay the fine, re-educate their sales people, train their managers, and change a few words in their marketing materials.
Basically, it comes down to how they're promoting their products - not the product itself. It will be very easy to fix.
That regulation actually applies to all EU countries. And in EU we can do whatever law we want, no need for your approval, thanks.
Apart from all the racist diminishing bigotry in here, Apple didn't respect local regulations and was fined that small sum. EU says all products have a 2 year guarantee, and Apple misled buyers by making them believe that Applecare covered 2 years more than the normal guarantee, when in reality it overlapped it.
So it's a simple misunderstanding that Apple can fix by changing their marketing materials and re-training their sales people and managers. Not that big of a deal.
So it's a simple misunderstanding that Apple can fix by changing their marketing materials and re-training their sales people and managers. Not that big of a deal.
Exactly, it's no big deal, Apple made a mistake and is going to pay the fine. That's all.
Why fine a company for what appears to be an oversight? Tell them to fix the oversight and move on.
An attractive argument. Wonder if it'll work with a traffic cop the next time you get pulled over for speeding!
First of all, this is an European directive, incorporated in the Italian law.
It states that all goods bought by consumers (so, not companies) must have a warranty of 2 years offered by the *seller* (please note: NOT the producer).
Apple, by itself, offers an additional 1-year warranty as the producer.
As long as you buy Apple products from a 3rd party reseller (an Apple Premium Reseller, for example), you get the 1-year warranty from Apple AND the 2-year warranty from the seller (of course, Apple's warranty is better, as they replace your product in quick times).
The problem, however, arises when you buy DIRECTLY from Apple, via the Apple Store Online or in a Apple Store (one of the 9 we have in Italy).
In this case, the seller coincides with the producer, so Apple should offer the 2-year warranty.
In the web site, or in a Apple Store, however, it's nowhere written that the warranty lasts 2 years in this case.
That's the origin of the fine!
Last october, also, the civil court of Vicenza (a city in Northern Italy) stated clearly that.
A student bought a MacBook Pro from Apple, and it broke after 1 year and half. Apple refused to offer free repair, and the court condemned them.
PS: To those saying "Apple Care is not necessary anymore, then"... Well, it's necessary to get the second year of warranty from Apple when you buy from a 3rd party seller. So the warranty is from Apple and not another company...
PS2: Apologize for mistakes. Speaking about laws in another language is not that easy
PS3: By the way... 900,000 € are pennies for Apple!