Italy fines Apple $1.2M for 'unfair commercial practices'

124

Comments

  • Reply 61 of 81
    elrothelroth Posts: 1,201member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


    Yes, it looks like Apple messed up and your suggestion is one possible solution.



    In the end, though, it is extremely difficult for a multinational to comply with all the local regulations and all of the fine print. Here's what the above-linked article says:

    "Apple did not fully implement for consumers the two-year legal guarantee from sellers and also that the company did not provide clear information on coverage of additional premium services."



    It sounds like it's not a simple matter of Apple failing to offer a 2 year warranty. Rather, it's some technicality that they failed to implement. And that's quite difficult to do in 160 countries (many of which, like the United States, have multiple different authorities). Apple messed up, they will pay the fine and fix the problem.



    No, Apple's been selling in Italy online for many years, and in retail stores for 5 years. I'm sure there were Italian lawyers involved in Apple setting up the real estate transactions, getting licenses and permits, etc. They had to know about the country's warranty law - it's a basic consumer law, not some hidden fine print. Apple is a consumer company.



    It's not a technicality - Apple was telling consumers the free warranty was only for one year (and maybe not even repairing items under warranty after one year). They also tried to sell them extended warranties they didn't need because they should have already been covered for two years. What would your reaction be if Dell did this?



    However it happened, somebody at Apple screwed up, whether maliciously or not.
  • Reply 62 of 81
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by GregInPrague View Post


    I'm guessing that the 2 year warranty is a European Union requirement. We have the same 2 year warranty on everything you buy here in the Czech Republic. So, that makes your concern about a warranty service nightmare less of an issue since the 27 EU countries would all have the same requirements.



    Think it's country dependent actually. Personally, I'm not against a 2 year warranty, wonder if I can source my next Mac in Milan?



    But the conclusion is that Apple did screw up here, they did break Italian law, and I'm 100% sure that they'll pay the fine and alter their terms. At the end of the day businesses can make mistakes.
  • Reply 63 of 81
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post


    Italy is in the shitter, economically speaking, like much of Europe.



    and like the US who will shortly be subsidiary of China Inc.



    If Apple break the law they should be punished the same as any other company.
  • Reply 64 of 81
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,176member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by tinman0 View Post


    Think it's country dependent actually.



    No, it applies to the entire European Union. Member countries can have stricter requirements, but the minimum period is 2 years in the EU. See post #26
  • Reply 65 of 81
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post


    Italy is in the shitter, economically speaking, like much of Europe.



    The solution to the law is for Apple to raise their prices in all of the countries affected by this extended warranty. Make EU people pay even more for their Apple devices. Apple does not need cheap Europeans buying their stuff. They should pay the extra costs associated with their law, just like they have to pay out of the ass in extra taxes, VAT and all other sorts of EU nonsense.



    The price of Apple devices should rise by at least 5% in all EU countries in order to pay for the costs of getting an extended warranty. Fair is fair and everybody should pay their fair share for their services and goods received. Those Euroheads who don't like it can always buy Android or some other crap.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post


    It's called business 101 buddy.



    Nothing is free in this world and if there is a company making a product that is offered in different regions and if that product comes with an extended warranty in region B, while region A only has a normal warranty, then the cost of the extra service provided will be passed along to the consumers in region B one way or the other.



    No. Apple can make 5% less profit and treat their costumers better. But I guess they don't teach costumer relations in business 101. Or you can post 5% less comments.
  • Reply 66 of 81
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by lightstriker View Post


    No. Apple can make 5% less profit and treat their costumers better. But I guess they don't teach costumer relations in business 101. Or you can post 5% less comments.



    Actually, we are already paying that 5% more....



    Apple is applying a 1:1 exchange ratio or almost.

    So, the basic iPhone 4S, unlocked, costs 659 euros, while it is 649 dollars in the USA.

    Prices in Italy already include VAT (currently at 21%), so the net price is 545 euros, which are 712 US$ at the moment (also, consider the euro plunged in the last weeks).

    So, we are paying about 70$ more for the same thing.



    Ok, selling in Europe could be more expensive also for other reasons: Apple needs to create subsidiaries, needs insurances to protect from sudden changes in exchange ratios, etc...
  • Reply 67 of 81
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by umumum View Post


    apple is an insignificant speck in comparison to any developed economy, even one tanking as badly as italy



    Actually, Italian economy is not negative on all fronts. During the latest couple years export has been fine - finer than Germany during the latest few months (+8.4%). But an incredibly high public debt (>120%, and growing), plus the highest taxation figures in the world (~54%, and growing) has diminished internal trade and import. Apple products have been victims of the recent trend, but cell phones are still one of the best selling goods in the Country. Armageddon will find us chatting, and we will probably continue after the first few impacts.



    Paolo
  • Reply 68 of 81
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post


    No, it applies to the entire European Union. Member countries can have stricter requirements, but the minimum period is 2 years in the EU.



    This makes me remember that Norway, who is not a member of the EU but harmonizes most of their laws with the EU equivalents, warrants purchases for 3 years.



    Paolo
  • Reply 69 of 81
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post


    While totally agreeing in theory I'm curious (hopefully someone will here will explain this) what happens when you walk over a border in Europe to a country with different laws and regulations with a Mac and require warranty service. Do you only get coverage in the country of origin or are the warranties honored elsewhere? If so ... what a nightmare that would be where these time differences in the warranties occur.



    Apple's warranty, like that of any manufacturer, is valid across the 27 Member States of the European Union. You can go to any Apple Service in any EU country to have your product repaired.
  • Reply 70 of 81
    freerangefreerange Posts: 1,597member
    So maybe we should require that all Italian brand and /or made in Italy products come with a 2 year warranty.
  • Reply 71 of 81
    freerangefreerange Posts: 1,597member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by lightstriker View Post


    No. Apple can make 5% less profit and treat their costumers better. But I guess they don't teach costumer relations in business 101. Or you can post 5% less comments.



    Or teach lightstriker how to spell...
  • Reply 72 of 81
    MacProMacPro Posts: 19,718member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by antobal View Post


    Apple's warranty, like that of any manufacturer, is valid across the 27 Member States of the European Union. You can go to any Apple Service in any EU country to have your product repaired.



    thanks for the feedback.
  • Reply 73 of 81
    jragostajragosta Posts: 10,473member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by elroth View Post


    No, Apple's been selling in Italy online for many years, and in retail stores for 5 years. I'm sure there were Italian lawyers involved in Apple setting up the real estate transactions, getting licenses and permits, etc. They had to know about the country's warranty law - it's a basic consumer law, not some hidden fine print. Apple is a consumer company.



    It's not a technicality - Apple was telling consumers the free warranty was only for one year (and maybe not even repairing items under warranty after one year). They also tried to sell them extended warranties they didn't need because they should have already been covered for two years. What would your reaction be if Dell did this?



    However it happened, somebody at Apple screwed up, whether maliciously or not.



    That's not what the news reports says. Where did you get your "facts"?
  • Reply 74 of 81
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post


    http://www.apple.com/it/support/products/mac.html

    This isn't enough information? I'm confused. Oh, the retail stores.



    The info on the site IS clear enough.

    The problem is that Italian Law "Codice del Consumo" D.L. 206 - 6 September 2005, says the warranty is two years.

    The law is part of the European Consumer Law.



    In the site is said "Tutti i Mac e monitor Apple includono una garanzia limitata di un anno" = "All Mac and Apple Monitor has a warranty limited to one year", the statement is against the law.





    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post


    No government should have the right to tell any business how they must warrant their products.



    The government is made by citizens.

    The government has to protect its citizens. Also when the citizens are consumers.





    Quote:
    Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post


    I'm curious (hopefully someone will here will explain this) what happens when you walk over a border in Europe to a country with different laws and regulations with a Mac and require warranty service. Do you only get coverage in the country of origin or are the warranties honored elsewhere?.



    Since it is an European law, you have no problem in the whole Europe.

    Right now you can buy a Mac in a Country and have it repaired in a different one.



    Since price differential is crazy, it is worth to buy a Mac in a different country. The only problem for the MacBook is the keyboard.





    Titan10
  • Reply 75 of 81
    jnjnjnjnjnjn Posts: 588member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post


    They've had it called to their attention before. It wasn't an oversight. Apple attempted to skirt the requirement by claiming they didn't sell to consumers so it wasn't their problem.



    Ok, I didn't know Apple had an official argument.

    I was wondering about this myself and came to a similar argument.

    But the problem is Apple does sell directly to consumers (even in Holland without official Apple stores) via the online Apple store.

    Online stores have the same rules regarding warranties and must comply to them according to European law.

    So its not just Holland or Italy, but all European countries and this is in effect for 10 years or more.



    It was just a matter of time before Apple had to comply to this. It is strange it took so long.

    Apple does comply to other rules like showing prices of products with taxes (in Holland consumer advertising must include the taxes) so I don't think this is an oversight.



    J.
  • Reply 76 of 81
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post


    The solution to the law is for Apple to raise their prices in all of the countries affected by this extended warranty.



    With high quality Apple could offer a 3 year warranty as standard anyway.

    They probably already make 600%+ more profit per item than anyone else.
  • Reply 77 of 81
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post


    I hope that they do.



    For example, Applecare for a $500 iPad is $79 in the US. That's about 16% of the entire cost of the product. If somebody in another region is essentially getting Applecare for free, then I would sure hope that they're paying for it in added initial costs.



    (First post in this forum: hello, world! I'm a spaniard, so please forgive my english)



    It's not Applecare for free. I mean, when you buy an Applecare warranty extension, you don't have to prove that the product was defective, do you?



    Remember: the EU law says that after the first six months, the customer has to provide proof that the product was defective when manufactured. This is, if the law was followed strictly, then you would only enjoy a "true" warranty of six months, and then, you would have to work and prove that Apple (in this case) sold you a defective product.



    In practice, all makers (at least in Spain, where I live) give customers one year of good/inconditional warranty, and after this year, they conveniently forget about the second year, giving you a full extra-warranty only if you pay for it. If you don't pay, then you'll probably have to sue them and prove in court or with the help of technical analysis that the product was defective when bought. You have the risk then, of losing, and keeping a defective product, after having wasted money in a lawyer, and you have to pay the trial expenses, or if you win, then Apple will have to pay for everything (trial expenses included). You could probably get a deal with Apple if you are sure you could win that trial, but that wouldn't be the most frequent case.
  • Reply 78 of 81
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post


    Products sold by Apple come with a standard one-year warranty and option to buy a second year through AppleCare, but local laws require companies to protect buyers with a free two-year warranty. Italian authorities determined that Apple "did not fully implement for consumers the two-year legal guarantee from sellers."



    Directive 1999/44/EC, May 1999 from the European Parliament



    1. The seller shall be held liable under Article 3 where the lack of conformity becomes apparent within two years as from delivery of the goods. If, under national legislation, the rights laid down in Article 3(2) are subject to a limitation period, that period shall not expire within a period of two years from the time of delivery.





    Quote:
    Originally Posted by frenchseb View Post


    Country needs Apple more than Apple needs country (replace country with anyone except US and China...)



    What? Someone actually wrote this? An apple lobotomized bot generated text maybe?
  • Reply 79 of 81
    Apple will appeal against the fine imposed by the Italian regulator for failing to respect the legal warranty requirements, and (astonishingly) we know this because Apple told us. (source The Register)
  • Reply 80 of 81
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,176member
    They really have to appeal. If Italy is successful in finding them guilty of violating Italian laws, then Apple will have to adjust their European warranty and AppleCare marketing for all of Europe. Nearly the entire continent follows the same if not harsher EU warranty policies. In short order France, Germany, Spain and others would likely make the same determination.



    With millions of AppleCare policies and billions in revenue from them, I'm sure Apple has no intention on potentially giving up even a small percentage of those sales without a fight. They're just trying to find the right loophole.
Sign In or Register to comment.