Why not whip up a small iPhone plant in Argentina? In fact, Apple should be moving to spread its manufacturing so it doesn't have a single point of failure in case some big disaster (earthquake?) hits China. Spread the risk.
Oh, so THIS is why Nazis took refuge in Argentina. Because they're freedom-limiting fascists. How about letting your people decide for themselves what they'd like to purchase?!
what do you know about argentina more than wikipedia says?
I rather like the Argentinian people and culture. Have you ever been there? The cities remind me of Europe. They also have excellent food and wine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by grblade
Oh, so THIS is why Nazis took refuge in Argentina. Because they're freedom-limiting fascists. How about letting your people decide for themselves what they'd like to purchase?!
Blocking the iphone imports is clearly a violation of international trade law. The Obama Administration should lodge a lawsuit against Argentina at the World Trade Organization
Black market will be awesome down in that third world hellhole of a country.
take your head out of your ass and open your eyes. The US of A is a hell hole of a country as well. If it keeps going down the road it's going, it too will become third world. Then how are you going to buy iPhones? With your Social Security check that Obama is trying to rob you of to pay down the $15 trillion debt.
No, it's stupid. When you buy things, you support your economy, whether it be a cell contract, some local accessory shop with ugly cases at a pulga....whatever. I'd tell Argentina to go F themselves and tell them to F Messi as well.
YOU LEAVE Messi OUT OF THIS!!! NO SOUP FOR YOU!!!
That said, 3rd World Countries gonna 3rd World.
It's sad, really. 3rd World is an attitude, and Argentina is showing it now.
So tell me again why Toyota, Honda, BMW and Mercedes had to build factories here in the USA? Because our labor is cheaper than in Asia or eastern Europe? I don't think so.
Oh yeah, and why does Boeing have to build parts of the new 787 in a dozen different countries? You think it's cheap shipping huge parts of planes around the world?
Every country does this. Some with more grace than others....
Full disclosure - I love Argentina. I've spent many many months there driving around the country, meeting the wonderful people, seeing the beautiful scenery, enjoying the fantastic food and wine. And just about everything related to technology or banking there is ridiculously complicated, especially for a foreigner. Still love the place though.
No, everybody does not complain about how Apple has no domestic manufacturing. The same people who complain about that also think this is a great idea. You can't take a group of people who don't understand economics and claim that they are both sides of a debate. Those are the idiots. The people who understand how the world works are trashing Argentina and defending Apple for not manufacturing in the USA. Everyone benefits when companies produce their good as efficiently as possible, regardless of a line on a map. Everyone suffers when politicians get involved in corporate decisions, without exception.
I was with you until the very last sentence. Regulationsn exist for many consumer protection reasons. If you don't have some baseline standard that protects consumers from predatory corporations, you will have a large segment of people afraid to spend their cash and adoption of new technology would be much lower lowering both productivity and wealth.
Exactly, therein lies the stupidity of anti trade practices like this, unless they turn into a a closed society entirely people will buy elsewhere, the demand may even increase (you always want what you can't have even more). We simply sell more here in the US and Argentina loses the ability to have Apple Stores and all sorts of spin off revenues!
I have to think this will be re thought ...
That's a good point. Think of the money that could be brought in from the retail stores.
So tell me again why Toyota, Honda, BMW and Mercedes had to build factories here in the USA? Because our labor is cheaper than in Asia or eastern Europe? I don't think so.
Oh yeah, and why does Boeing have to build parts of the new 787 in a dozen different countries? You think it's cheap shipping huge parts of planes around the world?
Every country does this. Some with more grace than others....
Full disclosure - I love Argentina. I've spent many many months there driving around the country, meeting the wonderful people, seeing the beautiful scenery, enjoying the fantastic food and wine. And just about everything related to technology or banking there is ridiculously complicated, especially for a foreigner. Still love the place though.
Actually, no ... this is COMPLETELY different than the examples you cited. What you are describing is a country placing a domestic production clause to the lifting of a tariff on a product. Basically what it does is make a foreign branded product to be sold for a cheaper price if the company is willing to produce at least some of the components, or the entire product, in the country. That ... is completely normal.
What Argentina has done has been to completely BAN the sale of an item, with the caveat the only way lift that ban is to produce it in country. It's basically the international trade equivalent of blackmail/extortion. That's completely different that saying, "you can sell a product that is foreign produced in our country, but we'll place tariffs on it." At least in the latter situation the product is still available for purchase ...
It's especially troubling because Argentina placing a ban on products unless those companies produce them in country is a direct violation of WTO and Mercosul conventions -- of which Argentina is a signatory and a member.
Maybe Apple should just BUY Argentina and.... name it Steve Jobs!
"Designed by Apple in Steve Jobs. Assembled in Steve Jobs."
Or Apple should buy Argentina and name it APPLE.
"Designed by Apple in Apple. Assembled in Apple."
The entire business can take place in that country and EVERY Apple job will belong to its citizen.
Sadly, this is so true. Ironically, it also refers to countries in Europe. There was a documentary on Ireland that had me almost in tears. Bl**dy second potato famine, it is.
With Apple's cash reserves they can buy a country or two. They don't even have to use up all their cash reserves, they just need to refinance the debt and voila! Free country for you!
I've never been to South America, I'm sure there are beautiful parts.
The issue I am most offended by is that this is standard 3rd-world thinking.
What? Tons of iPhones coming in? Ban them, that'll teach them!
Achievement: Zero
Grey/Black Market: 200%
Now. Think about this... What's the value (not just revenue or profit) for iOS and iOS (web-app) related industries? A heck of a lot more than you'd get from low-wage manufacturing. The Argentinian government, in this case, is looking at their butt instead of in front of them.
I've complained at length previously about Malaysia, and 3rd world is really, a state of mind. The facts, figures and attitudes only differ by a bit, but it makes a big difference in the big picture, long-term outlook of a country. Just like the genetic difference between ape and humans is just a bit, yet it makes a huge difference. And I'm not just talking about non-Caucasian countries, Scotland, the Irish Isle, Spain, Greece and Italy are all going to have an entire "lost generation" ~ we're talking 30% or more unemployment for those under 25. The US is not far behind, 20% youth unemployment.
In the next 20 years, what industries are going to be most important? Manufacturing? Or IT. Fossil Fuels? Yes, but also renewables dovetailing behind it as energy costs rise. Argiculture? Important, but more for self-sustenance of a country.
At the unemployment centres in the UK, across Europe, the Western world and the third world, what skills should we be teaching them? How to make the cheapest crap at the cheapest prices? Microsoft Word? Or web, iOS, Android and real knowledge-economy skills?
Even Vietnam now is pulling in quite a bit of IT outsourcing. Vietnam, not Argentina, Peru, or Colombia.
Brazil managed to get a manufacturing deal. This looks like Argentina wanting a piece of the pie, but to go up against not just China but Brazil as well, while restricting your own people from becoming more skilled, is... just tragic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by xtrmtrk
So tell me again why Toyota, Honda, BMW and Mercedes had to build factories here in the USA? Because our labor is cheaper than in Asia or eastern Europe? I don't think so.
Oh yeah, and why does Boeing have to build parts of the new 787 in a dozen different countries? You think it's cheap shipping huge parts of planes around the world?
Every country does this. Some with more grace than others....
Full disclosure - I love Argentina. I've spent many many months there driving around the country, meeting the wonderful people, seeing the beautiful scenery, enjoying the fantastic food and wine. And just about everything related to technology or banking there is ridiculously complicated, especially for a foreigner. Still love the place though.
Apple should definitely not build any plants there.
So iPhones are banned in Argentina, because of their fascist rules? So what. Apple doesn't need Argentina.
Apple can't just go around accommodating the demands of every third world country on the planet.
Build plants here or else we ban your phone! Sounds like a dictator run, fascist country! Let Apple pull out of Argentina completely! It'll be too bad for any Argentinian Apple fans, but blame your pathetic country for that, not Apple.
I agree. Argentinians can go to Brazil or Chile to get iPhones and get taxed there; then snugle it to Argentina and sell it at 10 times the price. Brilliant. In the mean time, Brazilians and Chileans and others will make a killing.
That math assumes that sales to Argentines will drop to zero otherwise. Totally false. Argentina can't prevent phones from streaming in over its borders. This law will only enrich those willing to break the law and using money from those who can afford a premium price, which you would THINK would be two unintended consequences. How a politician cannot see them coming when enacting this kind of stupid protectionism is beyond me.
Actually that's not true. I assume the politicians know what will happen, but they assume that their constituents are as uninformed as many of the posters on this board about basic economics.
we have a winner!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kibitzer
Except for brief, isolated periods of rationality, Argentina is South America's decades-long poster child for economic mismanagement. As it is elsewhere, the iPhone is a game-changer and enormously popular. That makes it the easy whipping boy for Argentinian demagogues looking to hoodwink their citizens with the big lie that "high-priced luxury imports" are what's bankrupting the country. There's no doubt that hard currency in private hands is fleeing the country, but it's not because of imports. If you're an Argentine citizen trying to protect your wealth and living under a government that you can't trust, what would you do?
Quote:
Originally Posted by cameronj
..... everybody does not complain about how Apple has no domestic manufacturing. The same people who complain about that also think this is a great idea. You can't take a group of people who don't understand economics and claim that they are both sides of a debate. Those are the idiots. The people who understand how the world works are trashing Argentina and defending Apple for not manufacturing in the USA. Everyone benefits when companies produce their good as efficiently as possible, regardless of a line on a map. Everyone suffers when politicians get involved in corporate decisions, without exception.
Both the above are so true. If I was Argentinean I would be depressed. All the time. Or seeking to emigrate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by professorsteve
Blocking the iphone imports is clearly a violation of international trade law. The Obama Administration should lodge a lawsuit against Argentina at the World Trade Organization
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips
You have to wonder if the folks behind this actually understand international law. It almost sounds like a back room attempt at extortion by the mob.
If Argentina is a signatory to the WTO Obama *could* take Argentina to the WTO, but why bother? It would cause an international ruckus (big bad Amerikkka picking on the little guy) and in the end who cares? Argentineans get their iphones on the black market, the crime lords get rich, the argentinean politicians continue to blame TEH EEVILL international corporations as the reason why their economy is in the toilet, and Yanks get to continue to not care about the stupid Argys.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Txomin
Again? Las Islas Malvinas were invaded by the brits, kicking all the argentinians out.. Inform yourself before making stupid comments.
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips
Mmmmm stupid comments eh? Are you sure Argentina existed as a country when the islands were first settled by Brits? The Brits settled those islands in 1690. Meanwhile Argentina was established as a legal, federal state in 1853-1861. So where did those 'Argentinians' come from in 1690 that you say were kicked out? Perhaps you are confusing Spaniards with Argentinians, in which case the Brits and the Spaniards were kicking each other all over the place in 1690 but I hate to break it to you, there were no Argentinians at the time the islands were settled by Brits. The correct name is therefore, The Falkland Islands.
Argentinia has an addressable smart phone market of around 4-6MM units per year. Let's assume that is $2.5B at retail without tarif, or approximately $500MM in tarif to be collected per year. Assembling the phones in China costs ~$60MM in incremental cost.
The simple question is if the avoided tarif offsets the cost of building a plant and operating it less efficiently than in China. I would expect the per-unit assembly cost to be about 5x (~$60/unit), and the capital cost of the plant to be about $400MM. That pretty much makes it a wash.
The alternative is to just do final assembly and packaging in-country.
Political freedom, economic freedom and free trade are the ultimate and best solution. The rest is pure nonsense trying to game the system for political power . If a society grows to adapt to those conditions, it will triumph.
The whole thing is Bullsh*t. There is a ban on every electronic product that do not put money under the table for the current government. They request a Plant, but it could be ANY plant.
Imagine that Apple ships iPhones to argentina (no local manufacturing whatsoever), and they build in Argentina a local plant to manufacture the box they use to ship the iPhone.... Then it is ok to sell the iPhone in Argentina.
The problem with Apple, is that Apple has pretty boxes, and the others manufacturers (nokia, LG, Samsung, Motorola) ship in a plain brown box.
I know this sounds extremely silly... it is.
I don't care that much about the iPhone, the real problem is the ban on Laptops and desktop. You can only buy on retail stores shitty re-branded Acer / Asus laptops (which spot a local brand) but are only assembled in here (they import the laptops pieces (main board, LCD, case) and they put them together).
If you plan to visit Argentina, bring an iPhone 4S with you, you can sell it for more than twice you paid for it.
Comments
Oh, so THIS is why Nazis took refuge in Argentina. Because they're freedom-limiting fascists. How about letting your people decide for themselves what they'd like to purchase?!
what do you know about argentina more than wikipedia says?
I rather like the Argentinian people and culture. Have you ever been there? The cities remind me of Europe. They also have excellent food and wine.
Oh, so THIS is why Nazis took refuge in Argentina. Because they're freedom-limiting fascists. How about letting your people decide for themselves what they'd like to purchase?!
I quoted two unrelated posts that are...related
You quoted me twice? I'm touched. How sweet.
poor baby....
I quoted two unrelated posts that are...related
may be, but am not writing stupid things...
You have to wonder if the folks behind this actually understand international law. It almost sounds like a back room attempt at extortion by the mob.
hahahahaha!
Blocking the iphone imports is clearly a violation of international trade law. The Obama Administration should lodge a lawsuit against Argentina at the World Trade Organization
Are you serious?
Black market will be awesome down in that third world hellhole of a country.
take your head out of your ass and open your eyes. The US of A is a hell hole of a country as well. If it keeps going down the road it's going, it too will become third world. Then how are you going to buy iPhones? With your Social Security check that Obama is trying to rob you of to pay down the $15 trillion debt.
No, it's stupid. When you buy things, you support your economy, whether it be a cell contract, some local accessory shop with ugly cases at a pulga....whatever. I'd tell Argentina to go F themselves and tell them to F Messi as well.
YOU LEAVE Messi OUT OF THIS!!! NO SOUP FOR YOU!!!
That said, 3rd World Countries gonna 3rd World.
It's sad, really. 3rd World is an attitude, and Argentina is showing it now.
Oh yeah, and why does Boeing have to build parts of the new 787 in a dozen different countries? You think it's cheap shipping huge parts of planes around the world?
Every country does this. Some with more grace than others....
Full disclosure - I love Argentina. I've spent many many months there driving around the country, meeting the wonderful people, seeing the beautiful scenery, enjoying the fantastic food and wine. And just about everything related to technology or banking there is ridiculously complicated, especially for a foreigner. Still love the place though.
No, it's not time for that. Everyone loses when protection increases. Small numbers lose when trade happens, and the majority gain far more.
Protectionism works in China but long term it fails and it would fail in the short run too if the US retaliated against China.
You're clearly confused, on that we agree.
No, everybody does not complain about how Apple has no domestic manufacturing. The same people who complain about that also think this is a great idea. You can't take a group of people who don't understand economics and claim that they are both sides of a debate. Those are the idiots. The people who understand how the world works are trashing Argentina and defending Apple for not manufacturing in the USA. Everyone benefits when companies produce their good as efficiently as possible, regardless of a line on a map. Everyone suffers when politicians get involved in corporate decisions, without exception.
I was with you until the very last sentence. Regulationsn exist for many consumer protection reasons. If you don't have some baseline standard that protects consumers from predatory corporations, you will have a large segment of people afraid to spend their cash and adoption of new technology would be much lower lowering both productivity and wealth.
Exactly, therein lies the stupidity of anti trade practices like this, unless they turn into a a closed society entirely people will buy elsewhere, the demand may even increase (you always want what you can't have even more). We simply sell more here in the US and Argentina loses the ability to have Apple Stores and all sorts of spin off revenues!
I have to think this will be re thought ...
That's a good point. Think of the money that could be brought in from the retail stores.
So tell me again why Toyota, Honda, BMW and Mercedes had to build factories here in the USA? Because our labor is cheaper than in Asia or eastern Europe? I don't think so.
Oh yeah, and why does Boeing have to build parts of the new 787 in a dozen different countries? You think it's cheap shipping huge parts of planes around the world?
Every country does this. Some with more grace than others....
Full disclosure - I love Argentina. I've spent many many months there driving around the country, meeting the wonderful people, seeing the beautiful scenery, enjoying the fantastic food and wine. And just about everything related to technology or banking there is ridiculously complicated, especially for a foreigner. Still love the place though.
Actually, no ... this is COMPLETELY different than the examples you cited. What you are describing is a country placing a domestic production clause to the lifting of a tariff on a product. Basically what it does is make a foreign branded product to be sold for a cheaper price if the company is willing to produce at least some of the components, or the entire product, in the country. That ... is completely normal.
What Argentina has done has been to completely BAN the sale of an item, with the caveat the only way lift that ban is to produce it in country. It's basically the international trade equivalent of blackmail/extortion. That's completely different that saying, "you can sell a product that is foreign produced in our country, but we'll place tariffs on it." At least in the latter situation the product is still available for purchase ...
It's especially troubling because Argentina placing a ban on products unless those companies produce them in country is a direct violation of WTO and Mercosul conventions -- of which Argentina is a signatory and a member.
Maybe Apple should just BUY Argentina and.... name it Steve Jobs!
"Designed by Apple in Steve Jobs. Assembled in Steve Jobs."
Or Apple should buy Argentina and name it APPLE.
"Designed by Apple in Apple. Assembled in Apple."
The entire business can take place in that country and EVERY Apple job will belong to its citizen.
Sadly, this is so true. Ironically, it also refers to countries in Europe. There was a documentary on Ireland that had me almost in tears. Bl**dy second potato famine, it is.
With Apple's cash reserves they can buy a country or two. They don't even have to use up all their cash reserves, they just need to refinance the debt and voila! Free country for you!
The issue I am most offended by is that this is standard 3rd-world thinking.
What? Tons of iPhones coming in? Ban them, that'll teach them!
Achievement: Zero
Grey/Black Market: 200%
Now. Think about this... What's the value (not just revenue or profit) for iOS and iOS (web-app) related industries? A heck of a lot more than you'd get from low-wage manufacturing. The Argentinian government, in this case, is looking at their butt instead of in front of them.
I've complained at length previously about Malaysia, and 3rd world is really, a state of mind. The facts, figures and attitudes only differ by a bit, but it makes a big difference in the big picture, long-term outlook of a country. Just like the genetic difference between ape and humans is just a bit, yet it makes a huge difference. And I'm not just talking about non-Caucasian countries, Scotland, the Irish Isle, Spain, Greece and Italy are all going to have an entire "lost generation" ~ we're talking 30% or more unemployment for those under 25. The US is not far behind, 20% youth unemployment.
http://www.economist.com/node/21528614
In the next 20 years, what industries are going to be most important? Manufacturing? Or IT. Fossil Fuels? Yes, but also renewables dovetailing behind it as energy costs rise. Argiculture? Important, but more for self-sustenance of a country.
At the unemployment centres in the UK, across Europe, the Western world and the third world, what skills should we be teaching them? How to make the cheapest crap at the cheapest prices? Microsoft Word? Or web, iOS, Android and real knowledge-economy skills?
Even Vietnam now is pulling in quite a bit of IT outsourcing. Vietnam, not Argentina, Peru, or Colombia.
Brazil managed to get a manufacturing deal. This looks like Argentina wanting a piece of the pie, but to go up against not just China but Brazil as well, while restricting your own people from becoming more skilled, is... just tragic.
So tell me again why Toyota, Honda, BMW and Mercedes had to build factories here in the USA? Because our labor is cheaper than in Asia or eastern Europe? I don't think so.
Oh yeah, and why does Boeing have to build parts of the new 787 in a dozen different countries? You think it's cheap shipping huge parts of planes around the world?
Every country does this. Some with more grace than others....
Full disclosure - I love Argentina. I've spent many many months there driving around the country, meeting the wonderful people, seeing the beautiful scenery, enjoying the fantastic food and wine. And just about everything related to technology or banking there is ridiculously complicated, especially for a foreigner. Still love the place though.
Apple should definitely not build any plants there.
So iPhones are banned in Argentina, because of their fascist rules? So what. Apple doesn't need Argentina.
Apple can't just go around accommodating the demands of every third world country on the planet.
Build plants here or else we ban your phone! Sounds like a dictator run, fascist country! Let Apple pull out of Argentina completely! It'll be too bad for any Argentinian Apple fans, but blame your pathetic country for that, not Apple.
I agree. Argentinians can go to Brazil or Chile to get iPhones and get taxed there; then snugle it to Argentina and sell it at 10 times the price. Brilliant. In the mean time, Brazilians and Chileans and others will make a killing.
That math assumes that sales to Argentines will drop to zero otherwise. Totally false. Argentina can't prevent phones from streaming in over its borders. This law will only enrich those willing to break the law and using money from those who can afford a premium price, which you would THINK would be two unintended consequences. How a politician cannot see them coming when enacting this kind of stupid protectionism is beyond me.
Actually that's not true. I assume the politicians know what will happen, but they assume that their constituents are as uninformed as many of the posters on this board about basic economics.
we have a winner!
Except for brief, isolated periods of rationality, Argentina is South America's decades-long poster child for economic mismanagement. As it is elsewhere, the iPhone is a game-changer and enormously popular. That makes it the easy whipping boy for Argentinian demagogues looking to hoodwink their citizens with the big lie that "high-priced luxury imports" are what's bankrupting the country. There's no doubt that hard currency in private hands is fleeing the country, but it's not because of imports. If you're an Argentine citizen trying to protect your wealth and living under a government that you can't trust, what would you do?
..... everybody does not complain about how Apple has no domestic manufacturing. The same people who complain about that also think this is a great idea. You can't take a group of people who don't understand economics and claim that they are both sides of a debate. Those are the idiots. The people who understand how the world works are trashing Argentina and defending Apple for not manufacturing in the USA. Everyone benefits when companies produce their good as efficiently as possible, regardless of a line on a map. Everyone suffers when politicians get involved in corporate decisions, without exception.
Both the above are so true. If I was Argentinean I would be depressed. All the time. Or seeking to emigrate.
Blocking the iphone imports is clearly a violation of international trade law. The Obama Administration should lodge a lawsuit against Argentina at the World Trade Organization
You have to wonder if the folks behind this actually understand international law. It almost sounds like a back room attempt at extortion by the mob.
If Argentina is a signatory to the WTO Obama *could* take Argentina to the WTO, but why bother? It would cause an international ruckus (big bad Amerikkka picking on the little guy) and in the end who cares? Argentineans get their iphones on the black market, the crime lords get rich, the argentinean politicians continue to blame TEH EEVILL international corporations as the reason why their economy is in the toilet, and Yanks get to continue to not care about the stupid Argys.
Again? Las Islas Malvinas were invaded by the brits, kicking all the argentinians out.. Inform yourself before making stupid comments.
Mmmmm stupid comments eh? Are you sure Argentina existed as a country when the islands were first settled by Brits? The Brits settled those islands in 1690. Meanwhile Argentina was established as a legal, federal state in 1853-1861. So where did those 'Argentinians' come from in 1690 that you say were kicked out? Perhaps you are confusing Spaniards with Argentinians, in which case the Brits and the Spaniards were kicking each other all over the place in 1690 but I hate to break it to you, there were no Argentinians at the time the islands were settled by Brits. The correct name is therefore, The Falkland Islands.
Damn but the truth can burn!
Argentinia has an addressable smart phone market of around 4-6MM units per year. Let's assume that is $2.5B at retail without tarif, or approximately $500MM in tarif to be collected per year. Assembling the phones in China costs ~$60MM in incremental cost.
The simple question is if the avoided tarif offsets the cost of building a plant and operating it less efficiently than in China. I would expect the per-unit assembly cost to be about 5x (~$60/unit), and the capital cost of the plant to be about $400MM. That pretty much makes it a wash.
The alternative is to just do final assembly and packaging in-country.
Political freedom, economic freedom and free trade are the ultimate and best solution. The rest is pure nonsense trying to game the system for political power . If a society grows to adapt to those conditions, it will triumph.
The whole thing is Bullsh*t. There is a ban on every electronic product that do not put money under the table for the current government. They request a Plant, but it could be ANY plant.
Imagine that Apple ships iPhones to argentina (no local manufacturing whatsoever), and they build in Argentina a local plant to manufacture the box they use to ship the iPhone.... Then it is ok to sell the iPhone in Argentina.
The problem with Apple, is that Apple has pretty boxes, and the others manufacturers (nokia, LG, Samsung, Motorola) ship in a plain brown box.
I know this sounds extremely silly... it is.
I don't care that much about the iPhone, the real problem is the ban on Laptops and desktop. You can only buy on retail stores shitty re-branded Acer / Asus laptops (which spot a local brand) but are only assembled in here (they import the laptops pieces (main board, LCD, case) and they put them together).
If you plan to visit Argentina, bring an iPhone 4S with you, you can sell it for more than twice you paid for it.