It's a brilliant 2-hour show that retells first-hand accounts of what happens in the factories where the iPhone is produced, in even more vivid detail than the damning NY Times article.
A first-hand account by one person which, when fact-checked by "This American Life" revealed that some of his observations did not comport with the facts. The creator of that show also did not observe and report on working conditions for farmers in South China.
I certainly hope for improvements in working conditions at Foxconn, but you must remember that China is dragging itself into the 21st century from the 19th. It won't be pretty.
Of course the unions became corrupt and problems arose from that as well.
Boy, if that isn't a blanket and untrue statement. Unions got corrupted in mafia heavy areas such as Chicago and New York. They're not all corrupt. Considering that the unions were met with armed Pinkerton guards at the gate, bashing their heads in, shooting and killing many of them, I can see why SOME of them partnered up with corrupt figures...FOR THEIR OWN PROTECTION!
Back in the early part of the 20th century workers in the US were mistreated until they formed unions. Of course the unions became corrupt and problems arose from that as well. But the workers got better treatment. Maybe what the workers need in these factories is a union. Probably won't happen any ways.
This exactly what people do not understand, it was so bad in the US that union had to form and the US has a very bad history on this front. Problem is Union served their purpose and are no longer needed, the US has a whole class of people who know they probably would not have a job without a union including the people running the unions.
I not sure why people can not negotiate for themselves, and in the US you have lots of choose where to work, if more people left crap jobs then those companies would go out of business. Union in some regard less bad companies continue because they force everyone to the same minimum levels. Because Union do not like good work to be rewarded and bad work to be eliminated.
However, in china they appear to be smart enough to no let the conditions degrade to the point we people would try and form a union, also there is so many people in china willing to work if someone complains there is at least 2 or 3 people right behind them willing to do the work for the money.
This is why the US shut down immigration in the 1920, too many people coming here who were more than willing to work and for far less and willing to put up with more to earn a wage.
Unions have never been anything other than a protection racket, sucking union dues from the workers, so that the mafia fat-cats who run the unions can live high on the hog.
Believe what you want, but my father worked in road construction in the 1950s (pre-unionization) and told me that he was actually losing money by going to work before unions. He'd have to travel to remote places, the employer wouldn't pay for the hotel rooms or meals. And on rainy days, he didn't make a dime.
He tried to ask for them to pay room and board, but the company would intentionally hire the biggest guy to be worksite foreman so that he could intimidate the other guys when they asked for raises or other benefits. That's why unions were needed for negotiation.
Now, you can say, why didn't he just get another job? Well, running heavy equipment was the only thing he was skilled in, and he only had education up to grade 8 because he grew up on a farm where they needed him to work in the field, so there weren't a whole lot of other options.
Right. The Chinese shoot people in the open streets for voicing their views. A better idea, would be not to do business in those places, and make the playing field fair through US intervention.
Yes, by pulling production out of china those workers could all go get high-paying white collar jobs instead and greatly increase their standard of living. /sarcasm
All that would do to the Chinese is force them back to villages and farms where they would struggle. I'm not saying that Apple shouldn't try to help Chinese workers, but it is a very complicated situation and people only get half the information. For example, people hear that employees work long days with no overtime. But it is generally not the case that they a being required to work long hours, they want to work those hours.
The savings rate in china is approximately 50%. So even though they are only making a few hundred dollars a month they can live on half that and are trying to secure their future. How are all of you doing with your retirement on all the money you are making, seeing that the savings rate in the US has been declining steadily for years?
It's a brilliant 2-hour show that retells first-hand accounts of what happens in the factories where the iPhone is produced, in even more vivid detail than the damning NY Times article.
I think you missed the point.
Your first comment showed quite clearly that you know relatively little about what's going on in the Chinese labour market and how Apple fits into the picture.
You've watched a documentary and been swayed by it. That's not a credential.
Rubbish. Working conditions in US factories were improving at a faster rate in the late 19th century and very early 20th century before the legalization of unions. The introduction of unions in the US put the brakes on and dramatically slowed down the rate of improvement in factory working conditions. The unions were corrupt and controlled by the mafia before the first strike. Unions have never been anything other than a protection racket, sucking union dues from the workers, so that the mafia fat-cats who run the unions can live high on the hog. The last thing Chinese workers need is US-style labor unions.
This statement is about 80% fantasy. You are using hyperbole to make a point and doing great damage to the facts in the process.
the same stock response that every apple fanboy uses?
"DELL, HP, SAMSUNG are all just as bad!!"
except, those are never ever linked directly with any criticism, or specific reports of incidents. only apple is, at apple only facilities. which is kinda odd, don't you think.
that's not to say the great work in safety that apple are doing isn't a good thing, but sadly, to have to invest so heavily in work to remedy a problem is not only an admission of guilt, it's a PR nightmare.. which is why Tim is having to get involved.
still, and improvement is an improvement. keep it up guys.
Admire, Jealous, Hate is what some of the Apple competitors feel now. As some of them got to the Hate stage, they starting saying stupid things.
In case some of ultra conservative people wonders, Chinese are humans too. What is Communism? Communism = Labor rights. Communism = Unionize political system. Communism = China. Why do people in American thinks that China would allow slavery in its factories. NYT please don't print stupid front page editorial any more.
I am an Apple investor and I am proud of Apple. Apple is the pride of America. I thank all the hard working employees working for Apple. You are great and you make great products!
Your first comment showed quite clearly that you know relatively little about what's going on in the Chinese labour market and how Apple fits into the picture.
You've watched a documentary and been swayed by it. That's not a credential.
For some people watching one documentary makes them an expert... especially when it fits with their current line of thinking.
Responding to a report by the New York Times that castigated Apple over an alleged permissiveness and indifference for workers' conditions among the suppliers it contract with in China, its chief executive Tim Cook rebutted the accusations in an email expressing "any suggestion that we don?t care is patently false and offensive to us."
Very Apple and very Jobs-like, which is why I saved it for the last word in my list.
The letter was very likely written by the same flak who used to write Steve's stuff, so I find it unsurprising that it sounds similar to official corporate statements from the past.
... but there is no denying that anyone who doesn't use cheap Chinese labour is at a disadvantage with competitors and, iirc, having an unfair labour advantage was one of the reasons for the US Civil War.
So, indirectly, slavery and cheap Chinese labour have something in common.
I read your question as "Of course he's going to lie." And that angers me (about him, not you.) I expected more from Mr. Cook. The accusations are well-documented; they are not a single source's opinion but are from widespread eyewitness accounts. AND THERE ARE PICTURES AND VIDEO.
Tim, lying is not going to help you here. You may have the $100billion warchest to fall back on but it doesn't give you the moral high ground. Not by any means. And your reality distortion field is much weaker than your predecessor's. Apple employees may slurp your Kool-Aid but we're not going to. Clean up your act!!
Here's a naive idea, maybe being a democracy should have been one of the the primary and essential requirements in joining 'level playing field' organisations like the WTO and UN.
A communist country which gets to choose which parts of capitalism it likes as well as which parts of communism it likes will always have an 'unfair' advantage on a 'level playing field' against democratic countries where governments can be held accountable and be forced to uphold standards set by and demanded by the voting power of its citizens.
You'd hope the WTO and the UN would have realised this but they most likely prioritised 'cheap' and business interests over human interests, just like the rest of us do on a daily basis without even realising or thinking much about it.
For all the shitty things China does, you could argue that they do a much better job of protecting their national interests than most other countries in the world. (often at great expense to its citizens individual rights, which makes you wonder who exactly their national interests are serving)
At the same time, the sheer number of people in China who need to be fed and housed is mind boggling and hard for most of us in the western world to even properly comprehend and properly understand let alone devise a better system to manage such a huge population.
I do think Apple is being unfairly targeted when most other companies are doing the same, worse or less to address the problems but I'm glad the stories are being written simply so more of us might think and question the world we live in and want to live in.
The response from Tim was very eloquent, well written, straightforward and very Jobsian in the way that it addressed concerns without providing any more details than Apple deemed absolutely necessary,
It is almost perfect Apple PR and much better than just responding with;
Why do people in American thinks that China would allow slavery in its factories.
Because slavery is VERY profitable. Wake up and follow the money. Just because you don't want there to be slavery doesn't mean there isn't any slavery. Reality doesn't care what you believe; it will continue being what it is until you wake up and be part of the effort to embetter the world.
This is easy, and let's leave off the OT issues around trade unions and the one-man show. Those are not important.
What other companies are as proactive as Apple, as high profile as Apple that are pursuing as agressively as Apple the improvement of worker conditions in their supply chains?
The why of the articles, the one-man show, and so forth are easy. Apple is the highest profile tech company, with the highest profitability, the strongly product and services portfolio if you want a Pulitzer (the ultimate goal for the NYT btw) you go after the most widely recognized tagrte you can, which will generate the most views, the most ad dollars and the highest likelihood of being seen as relevant, timely and controversial by the Pulitzer committee.
The actual or composite truth of the matter is much deeper and wider than can be captured in a series of articles by the NYT or any other single news agency. It encomapsses culture, history, government policy, companies in side and outside China, and a myriad of other details including the personal expeirences of millions of China's workers and citizens.
The problem is we don't WANT that level of complexity in discovering what truly is going on. We want a simplist view as captured by the one-man show, or the NYT articles, because we are by and large already saturated with tons of irrelevant information which we struggle to process on a daily and even hourly basis.
You can decry Tim Cook's statement as expected spin control, or take it at face value - the statement of a CEO who truly cares, and acompany that is actually trying to do something about the situation. Depends on your level of cynicism, on your hatred of all things corporate, your desire to filter on what resonates with your world view, and whether you are capable of freely assessing information based on facts on the ground and not assumptions handed to you by an agenda'd source.
I read your question as "Of course he's going to lie." And that angers me (about him, not you.) I expected more from Mr. Cook. The accusations are well-documented; they are not a single source's opinion but are from widespread eyewitness accounts. AND THERE ARE PICTURES AND VIDEO.
Tim, lying is not going to help you here. You may have the $100billion warchest to fall back on but it doesn't give you the moral high ground. Not by any means. And your reality distortion field is much weaker than your predecessor's. Apple employees may slurp your Kool-Aid but we're not going to. Clean up your act!!
I wouldn't say that Tim is lying because we really don't know how much is going on behind the scenes. There really is only so much Apple can do other than pulling out of China and then using factories (that actually don't exist) in other countries with much higher labour costs.
... and, I'm sure, you can extrapolate the results from there.
Because slavery is VERY profitable. Wake up and follow the money. Just because you don't want there to be slavery doesn't mean there isn't any slavery. Reality doesn't care what you believe; it will continue being what it is until you wake up and be part of the effort to embetter the world.
You seem to believe that the working conditions in China are outright slavery. Best you read up on actual slavery just so that you know the difference.
[... and this isn't to say that I don't believe in constantly improving living conditions around the world.]
Comments
More than you, I suspect.
Have you seen The Agony and Ecstasy of Steve Jobs? I have.
http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/c...viewed_.3.html
It's a brilliant 2-hour show that retells first-hand accounts of what happens in the factories where the iPhone is produced, in even more vivid detail than the damning NY Times article.
A first-hand account by one person which, when fact-checked by "This American Life" revealed that some of his observations did not comport with the facts. The creator of that show also did not observe and report on working conditions for farmers in South China.
I certainly hope for improvements in working conditions at Foxconn, but you must remember that China is dragging itself into the 21st century from the 19th. It won't be pretty.
Of course the unions became corrupt and problems arose from that as well.
Boy, if that isn't a blanket and untrue statement. Unions got corrupted in mafia heavy areas such as Chicago and New York. They're not all corrupt. Considering that the unions were met with armed Pinkerton guards at the gate, bashing their heads in, shooting and killing many of them, I can see why SOME of them partnered up with corrupt figures...FOR THEIR OWN PROTECTION!
Back in the early part of the 20th century workers in the US were mistreated until they formed unions. Of course the unions became corrupt and problems arose from that as well. But the workers got better treatment. Maybe what the workers need in these factories is a union. Probably won't happen any ways.
This exactly what people do not understand, it was so bad in the US that union had to form and the US has a very bad history on this front. Problem is Union served their purpose and are no longer needed, the US has a whole class of people who know they probably would not have a job without a union including the people running the unions.
I not sure why people can not negotiate for themselves, and in the US you have lots of choose where to work, if more people left crap jobs then those companies would go out of business. Union in some regard less bad companies continue because they force everyone to the same minimum levels. Because Union do not like good work to be rewarded and bad work to be eliminated.
However, in china they appear to be smart enough to no let the conditions degrade to the point we people would try and form a union, also there is so many people in china willing to work if someone complains there is at least 2 or 3 people right behind them willing to do the work for the money.
This is why the US shut down immigration in the 1920, too many people coming here who were more than willing to work and for far less and willing to put up with more to earn a wage.
Unions have never been anything other than a protection racket, sucking union dues from the workers, so that the mafia fat-cats who run the unions can live high on the hog.
Believe what you want, but my father worked in road construction in the 1950s (pre-unionization) and told me that he was actually losing money by going to work before unions. He'd have to travel to remote places, the employer wouldn't pay for the hotel rooms or meals. And on rainy days, he didn't make a dime.
He tried to ask for them to pay room and board, but the company would intentionally hire the biggest guy to be worksite foreman so that he could intimidate the other guys when they asked for raises or other benefits. That's why unions were needed for negotiation.
Now, you can say, why didn't he just get another job? Well, running heavy equipment was the only thing he was skilled in, and he only had education up to grade 8 because he grew up on a farm where they needed him to work in the field, so there weren't a whole lot of other options.
Right. The Chinese shoot people in the open streets for voicing their views. A better idea, would be not to do business in those places, and make the playing field fair through US intervention.
Yes, by pulling production out of china those workers could all go get high-paying white collar jobs instead and greatly increase their standard of living. /sarcasm
All that would do to the Chinese is force them back to villages and farms where they would struggle. I'm not saying that Apple shouldn't try to help Chinese workers, but it is a very complicated situation and people only get half the information. For example, people hear that employees work long days with no overtime. But it is generally not the case that they a being required to work long hours, they want to work those hours.
The savings rate in china is approximately 50%. So even though they are only making a few hundred dollars a month they can live on half that and are trying to secure their future. How are all of you doing with your retirement on all the money you are making, seeing that the savings rate in the US has been declining steadily for years?
More than you, I suspect.
Have you seen The Agony and Ecstasy of Steve Jobs? I have.
http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/c...viewed_.3.html
It's a brilliant 2-hour show that retells first-hand accounts of what happens in the factories where the iPhone is produced, in even more vivid detail than the damning NY Times article.
I think you missed the point.
Your first comment showed quite clearly that you know relatively little about what's going on in the Chinese labour market and how Apple fits into the picture.
You've watched a documentary and been swayed by it. That's not a credential.
Rubbish. Working conditions in US factories were improving at a faster rate in the late 19th century and very early 20th century before the legalization of unions. The introduction of unions in the US put the brakes on and dramatically slowed down the rate of improvement in factory working conditions. The unions were corrupt and controlled by the mafia before the first strike. Unions have never been anything other than a protection racket, sucking union dues from the workers, so that the mafia fat-cats who run the unions can live high on the hog. The last thing Chinese workers need is US-style labor unions.
This statement is about 80% fantasy. You are using hyperbole to make a point and doing great damage to the facts in the process.
What else would he say?
the same stock response that every apple fanboy uses?
"DELL, HP, SAMSUNG are all just as bad!!"
except, those are never ever linked directly with any criticism, or specific reports of incidents. only apple is, at apple only facilities. which is kinda odd, don't you think.
that's not to say the great work in safety that apple are doing isn't a good thing, but sadly, to have to invest so heavily in work to remedy a problem is not only an admission of guilt, it's a PR nightmare.. which is why Tim is having to get involved.
still, and improvement is an improvement. keep it up guys.
In case some of ultra conservative people wonders, Chinese are humans too. What is Communism? Communism = Labor rights. Communism = Unionize political system. Communism = China. Why do people in American thinks that China would allow slavery in its factories. NYT please don't print stupid front page editorial any more.
I am an Apple investor and I am proud of Apple. Apple is the pride of America. I thank all the hard working employees working for Apple. You are great and you make great products!
I think you missed the point.
Your first comment showed quite clearly that you know relatively little about what's going on in the Chinese labour market and how Apple fits into the picture.
You've watched a documentary and been swayed by it. That's not a credential.
For some people watching one documentary makes them an expert... especially when it fits with their current line of thinking.
Responding to a report by the New York Times that castigated Apple over an alleged permissiveness and indifference for workers' conditions among the suppliers it contract with in China, its chief executive Tim Cook rebutted the accusations in an email expressing "any suggestion that we don?t care is patently false and offensive to us."
Actions speak louder than words.
Slaves built the pyramids
Slaves picked cotton in the South
Slaves make all these fancy gadgets we love so much?
Grow up.
you're an idiot to compare this to slavery.
Very Apple and very Jobs-like, which is why I saved it for the last word in my list.
The letter was very likely written by the same flak who used to write Steve's stuff, so I find it unsurprising that it sounds similar to official corporate statements from the past.
you're an idiot to compare this to slavery.
Not directly.
... but there is no denying that anyone who doesn't use cheap Chinese labour is at a disadvantage with competitors and, iirc, having an unfair labour advantage was one of the reasons for the US Civil War.
So, indirectly, slavery and cheap Chinese labour have something in common.
What else would he say?
I read your question as "Of course he's going to lie." And that angers me (about him, not you.) I expected more from Mr. Cook. The accusations are well-documented; they are not a single source's opinion but are from widespread eyewitness accounts. AND THERE ARE PICTURES AND VIDEO.
Tim, lying is not going to help you here. You may have the $100billion warchest to fall back on but it doesn't give you the moral high ground. Not by any means. And your reality distortion field is much weaker than your predecessor's. Apple employees may slurp your Kool-Aid but we're not going to. Clean up your act!!
A communist country which gets to choose which parts of capitalism it likes as well as which parts of communism it likes will always have an 'unfair' advantage on a 'level playing field' against democratic countries where governments can be held accountable and be forced to uphold standards set by and demanded by the voting power of its citizens.
You'd hope the WTO and the UN would have realised this but they most likely prioritised 'cheap' and business interests over human interests, just like the rest of us do on a daily basis without even realising or thinking much about it.
For all the shitty things China does, you could argue that they do a much better job of protecting their national interests than most other countries in the world. (often at great expense to its citizens individual rights, which makes you wonder who exactly their national interests are serving)
At the same time, the sheer number of people in China who need to be fed and housed is mind boggling and hard for most of us in the western world to even properly comprehend and properly understand let alone devise a better system to manage such a huge population.
I do think Apple is being unfairly targeted when most other companies are doing the same, worse or less to address the problems but I'm glad the stories are being written simply so more of us might think and question the world we live in and want to live in.
The response from Tim was very eloquent, well written, straightforward and very Jobsian in the way that it addressed concerns without providing any more details than Apple deemed absolutely necessary,
It is almost perfect Apple PR and much better than just responding with;
"our next factory is going to be awesome"
(awesome of course being open to interpretation)
Why do people in American thinks that China would allow slavery in its factories.
Because slavery is VERY profitable. Wake up and follow the money. Just because you don't want there to be slavery doesn't mean there isn't any slavery. Reality doesn't care what you believe; it will continue being what it is until you wake up and be part of the effort to embetter the world.
What other companies are as proactive as Apple, as high profile as Apple that are pursuing as agressively as Apple the improvement of worker conditions in their supply chains?
Samsung? Sony? Nokia? Microsoft? Dell? HP? Lenovo? Asus? Acer? LG? HTC? Motorola?
The why of the articles, the one-man show, and so forth are easy. Apple is the highest profile tech company, with the highest profitability, the strongly product and services portfolio if you want a Pulitzer (the ultimate goal for the NYT btw) you go after the most widely recognized tagrte you can, which will generate the most views, the most ad dollars and the highest likelihood of being seen as relevant, timely and controversial by the Pulitzer committee.
The actual or composite truth of the matter is much deeper and wider than can be captured in a series of articles by the NYT or any other single news agency. It encomapsses culture, history, government policy, companies in side and outside China, and a myriad of other details including the personal expeirences of millions of China's workers and citizens.
The problem is we don't WANT that level of complexity in discovering what truly is going on. We want a simplist view as captured by the one-man show, or the NYT articles, because we are by and large already saturated with tons of irrelevant information which we struggle to process on a daily and even hourly basis.
You can decry Tim Cook's statement as expected spin control, or take it at face value - the statement of a CEO who truly cares, and acompany that is actually trying to do something about the situation. Depends on your level of cynicism, on your hatred of all things corporate, your desire to filter on what resonates with your world view, and whether you are capable of freely assessing information based on facts on the ground and not assumptions handed to you by an agenda'd source.
I read your question as "Of course he's going to lie." And that angers me (about him, not you.) I expected more from Mr. Cook. The accusations are well-documented; they are not a single source's opinion but are from widespread eyewitness accounts. AND THERE ARE PICTURES AND VIDEO.
Tim, lying is not going to help you here. You may have the $100billion warchest to fall back on but it doesn't give you the moral high ground. Not by any means. And your reality distortion field is much weaker than your predecessor's. Apple employees may slurp your Kool-Aid but we're not going to. Clean up your act!!
I wouldn't say that Tim is lying because we really don't know how much is going on behind the scenes. There really is only so much Apple can do other than pulling out of China and then using factories (that actually don't exist) in other countries with much higher labour costs.
... and, I'm sure, you can extrapolate the results from there.
Because slavery is VERY profitable. Wake up and follow the money. Just because you don't want there to be slavery doesn't mean there isn't any slavery. Reality doesn't care what you believe; it will continue being what it is until you wake up and be part of the effort to embetter the world.
You seem to believe that the working conditions in China are outright slavery. Best you read up on actual slavery just so that you know the difference.
[... and this isn't to say that I don't believe in constantly improving living conditions around the world.]