gprovida: "The disruption that Amazon is pioneering may in the long run effect Apple but they will be a major problem for current Android OEMs and Google in 2012. Facebook just compounds the problem for Google and Android."
Meanwhile, AI seems awfully quiet on Samsung's recently announced profits. Amazing how their margins are so low they hardly make a cent selling phones. Their telecoms division made a quarterly profit of $2.355 B, up 90% yoy.
I can't see how is that relevant to Appleinsider when Apple just reported a killing quarter. Those profit sure ate off other Android vendors rather than Apple?
Analyst Jordan Rohan is full of poop! His estimate is a merely wild guess he pulled out of his ear. Amazon never reveals how many Kindle's sell because then dopes like Rohan could figure out how much $ Amazon is losing on Kindle.
It worked for MS getting the xBox a foodhold in the console gaming market.
...
Edit: And just by way of another example... low-end ink jet printers are aften sold at/near cost and they make their money selling ink. Just like Amazon hopes to make money selling/renting content.
Yeah, but ink cartridges have MASSIVE margins. That's not the case with content.
Has MS yet made an overall profit on XBox? Their current quarterlies may indicate that, but I still believe they're in the hole over the life of the product.
In any event, I welcome the Fire. Between the Fire sucking the oxygen out of the low end (pun intended) and iPad dominating the high end, I don't see where the Samsungs, HP etc of the world get traction now.
If the iPad didn't exist, I'd get the Nook Tablet. A family member got one for Christmas and it is a a very nice low end tablet. Of course one can argue that if there was no iPad there would be no Nook Tablet since iPad inspired a lot of the technology found in it.
This whole thing could play out to Apple's advantage,
Impact to Android tablet makers,
- The $199 price point could knee-cap other Android tablets. At a minimum, it severely de-values non-iPad tablets. Price points and consumer expectations are being re-leveled. The profits these manufacturers hoped to realize may never, ever materialize
- Asian manufacturers have no hope of executing an Amazon content-focused model. They do not have content strategy or services. Including Sony. It's a bit shocking that they found themselves in this predicament in 2012
Impact to Google,
- It completely forks the "Android platform" including app stores. Amazon has taken 2.3 and will do its own development off it. They will likely never add future Google enhancements like ICS. We are seeing fragmentation on the tablet side unlike anything we've seen on Android mobile
- Google makes no money from the Fire. Zero.
- There is substantial risk that the lack of tablet traction could start impacting Google's core mobile business. Consumers will increasingly search out platforms that cut across computer, phone, tablet and TV. No one wants to have to buy games, books, movies, etc.., twice. Everyone wants to have their content synced across all their devices
It could be a positive scenario for Apple for the Fire to gain some (but not a lot) of traction for the next couple of years to cause a collapse of the Android tablet market. And, to use pricing on iPad 2 as a lever to keep the Fire in check.
I expect Apple to take the iPad 2 to $399 as a starting point when they announce the iPad 3. They could take it down to $299 if they wanted to try to kill off the Fire
My girlfriend got a Kindle from her son as a Christmas gift.... she hasn't even opened the box yet... its going back..
What will Amazon do when the new iPad3 comes out and iPad2 drops in price? You can only sell for a loss for so long... and the incremental income (profit) will take a long time to get back to equal... its another zero sum game that won't work over the long-term.
I have to wonder about Amazon and the Kindle's ecosystem. Although it's a good idea to serve Amazon Prime customers, in the end, catering to cheapskates is not the greatest thing to make money. Cheapskates always remain cheapskates and they're always looking to find ways to save money. Amazon would have to lower prices for everything and then try to move vast amounts of media content just to get a little above break-even returns. They say you can't squeeze blood out of a beet and you can't squeeze much money out of cheapskates. Look at how poorly the financial returns are for the Android ecosystem. Not good at all compared to Apple's ecosystem and mainly because Apple consumers are BIG SPENDERS, not Android pikers.
I understand that there are people that can't afford the best of everything, but let's not put Amazon on a pedestal for catering to the bottom feeders with low-quality hardware. I'm anxious too see how well Jeff Bezos' scrap picker financial strategy works on the long run. It should survive but just barely and Amazon definitely shouldn't have any P/E of 100+. That's just Wall Street's crooked side that allows Amazon to sustain that undeserved multiple. I use Amazon to buy practically everything except clothing and I think it's a great service, but I still don't think it should have gone up against Apple with an iPad competitor (maybe it isn't, but the media is making it out to be by saying it's stealing iPad sales) because I think there are some lines a company shouldn't cross out of common courtesy. I doubt that Jeff Bezos would be happy if Apple started going into online sales of non-Apple products and with Apple's cash reserve, they could sell cheaper products for a short time and really hurt Amazon's bottom line.
I have played with a few that friends and family bought. They work as well as the iPad (Screen is a little too small) for most media related things. It seems like a good device for the price. This is the first tablet that should give Apple a little competition...
Empirically, Apple says that the Fire has not had any impact on iPad sales.
And, frankly, I wouldn't expect it to. The $99 HP Touchpad was a better device in almost every way - yet even it apparently didn't have much impact (if any) on iPad sales. It appears that people who can afford an iPad are not accepting lesser devices instead. People who are buying the Fire, HP TouchPad, etc were not likely to be in the market for an iPad, anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Oak
This whole thing could play out to Apple's advantage,
Impact to Android tablet makers,
- The $199 price point could knee-cap other Android tablets. At a minimum, it severely de-values non-iPad tablets. Price points and consumer expectations are being re-leveled. The profits these manufacturers hoped to realize may never, ever materialize
- Asian manufacturers have no hope of executing an Amazon content-focused model. They do not have content strategy or services. Including Sony. It's a bit shocking that they found themselves in this predicament in 2012
Impact to Google,
- It completely forks the "Android platform" including app stores. Amazon has taken 2.3 and will do its own development off it. They will likely never add future Google enhancements like ICS. We are seeing fragmentation on the tablet side unlike anything we've seen on Android mobile
- Google makes no money from the Fire. Zero.
- There is substantial risk that the lack of tablet traction could start impacting Google's core mobile business. Consumers will increasingly search out platforms that cut across computer, phone, tablet and TV. No one wants to have to buy games, books, movies, etc.., twice. Everyone wants to have their content synced across all their devices
It could be a positive scenario for Apple for the Fire to gain some (but not a lot) of traction for the next couple of years to cause a collapse of the Android tablet market. And, to use pricing on iPad 2 as a lever to keep the Fire in check.
I expect Apple to take the iPad 2 to $399 as a starting point when they announce the iPad 3. They could take it down to $299 if they wanted to try to kill off the Fire
The above is pretty much true. Amazon may sell a bunch of Fires, but it doesn't seem to be hurting Apple and doesn't seem to be helping anyone else.
Competition? What planet are you from anyway? Is KIA competing with BMW? Two completely different markets. I really don't grok posts like yours.
There may be a little competition. It is more like a planet that only has BMWs and no other type of car. Then someone comes out with a KIA. I doubt it will have much short term effect on the iPad. Mainly because this is only going to appeal to Kindle users because of limited third party application support. This argument makes more sense when you are talking about Macs. Although with current prices it feels like buying a BMW for the price of a KIA.
Eventually this may be a real competitor. I think Apple has many options if they choose to compete though. They could make a less expensive iPad or a non-retina iPod touch with a double size screen. Of all Apple's products, the Kindle FIre is closest to an iPod Touch. You really need to look at it competing there.
In the PC world there are manufacturers who only know hardware, and buy an off the shelf OS. The tablet world is shaping up to be quite different. Apple and Amazon both sell integrated products, not platforms to run whatever OS you want on.
The famous separation between hardware and software that Bill Gates created (his main genius insight) is coming to a close, and we are back in a world of Products.
I really have trouble believing this is possible. It would mean that 50% of the tablets sold in the US were Kindle Fires. I could guess that 25% is within the realm of possibility based on the few that I have seen in the wild, which should put them under 2MM units. 2MM units also seems more in line with a production ramp-up, although they could have built stock up before launch.
You are right shipped is sold. However, there is a difference between Target buying the Kindles to sell to somebody and a person actually using the Kindle buying it. We don't know how many sold to retailers are sitting on shelves waiting to be sold to actual customers.
If the iPad didn't exist, I'd get the Nook Tablet. A family member got one for Christmas and it is a a very nice low end tablet. Of course one can argue that if there was no iPad there would be no Nook Tablet since iPad inspired a lot of the technology found in it.
The Nook is actually a better tablet than then the Fire. The Fire is doing well because of association with Amazon.
Comments
Competition? What planet are you from anyway? Is KIA competing with BMW? Two completely different markets. I really don't grok posts like yours.
What is more interesting is that Amazon has stated that they are working on a next-generation Fire, possibly with a different form factor.
Imagine a 10" Fire for $300.
Now THAT might be competition.
I think the analyst is way off...
At least 10mm KFCs are sold every week and 40% of those are extra crispy
In smartphones it is an Apple/Samsung game.
In tablets it is an Apple/Amazon game.
There will be Amazon phone soon I guess.
gprovida: "The disruption that Amazon is pioneering may in the long run effect Apple but they will be a major problem for current Android OEMs and Google in 2012. Facebook just compounds the problem for Google and Android."
Yah, expect for confusing affect and effect...
You can talk - confusing expect for except.
Meanwhile, AI seems awfully quiet on Samsung's recently announced profits. Amazing how their margins are so low they hardly make a cent selling phones. Their telecoms division made a quarterly profit of $2.355 B, up 90% yoy.
I can't see how is that relevant to Appleinsider when Apple just reported a killing quarter. Those profit sure ate off other Android vendors rather than Apple?
It worked for MS getting the xBox a foodhold in the console gaming market.
...
Edit: And just by way of another example... low-end ink jet printers are aften sold at/near cost and they make their money selling ink. Just like Amazon hopes to make money selling/renting content.
Yeah, but ink cartridges have MASSIVE margins. That's not the case with content.
Has MS yet made an overall profit on XBox? Their current quarterlies may indicate that, but I still believe they're in the hole over the life of the product.
In any event, I welcome the Fire. Between the Fire sucking the oxygen out of the low end (pun intended) and iPad dominating the high end, I don't see where the Samsungs, HP etc of the world get traction now.
What is more interesting is that Amazon has stated that they are working on a next-generation Fire, possibly with a different form factor.
Imagine a 10" Fire for $300.
Now THAT might be competition.
My bet is that you'll see a $349 iPad 2 when the iPad 3 rolls out (or shortly thereafter), and which point a $300 Fire is DOA.
. What the heck does this mean:
"software attach rates for apps and media downloaded to the tablets would correlate inversely with the hardware price"
There must be a plainer way to say this.
"once again I am just talking out of my ass"
Impact to Android tablet makers,
- The $199 price point could knee-cap other Android tablets. At a minimum, it severely de-values non-iPad tablets. Price points and consumer expectations are being re-leveled. The profits these manufacturers hoped to realize may never, ever materialize
- Asian manufacturers have no hope of executing an Amazon content-focused model. They do not have content strategy or services. Including Sony. It's a bit shocking that they found themselves in this predicament in 2012
Impact to Google,
- It completely forks the "Android platform" including app stores. Amazon has taken 2.3 and will do its own development off it. They will likely never add future Google enhancements like ICS. We are seeing fragmentation on the tablet side unlike anything we've seen on Android mobile
- Google makes no money from the Fire. Zero.
- There is substantial risk that the lack of tablet traction could start impacting Google's core mobile business. Consumers will increasingly search out platforms that cut across computer, phone, tablet and TV. No one wants to have to buy games, books, movies, etc.., twice. Everyone wants to have their content synced across all their devices
It could be a positive scenario for Apple for the Fire to gain some (but not a lot) of traction for the next couple of years to cause a collapse of the Android tablet market. And, to use pricing on iPad 2 as a lever to keep the Fire in check.
I expect Apple to take the iPad 2 to $399 as a starting point when they announce the iPad 3. They could take it down to $299 if they wanted to try to kill off the Fire
What will Amazon do when the new iPad3 comes out and iPad2 drops in price? You can only sell for a loss for so long... and the incremental income (profit) will take a long time to get back to equal... its another zero sum game that won't work over the long-term.
Apple needs to decide if it will compete in the lower end tablet market or give it away totally.
I think they already decided
I understand that there are people that can't afford the best of everything, but let's not put Amazon on a pedestal for catering to the bottom feeders with low-quality hardware. I'm anxious too see how well Jeff Bezos' scrap picker financial strategy works on the long run. It should survive but just barely and Amazon definitely shouldn't have any P/E of 100+. That's just Wall Street's crooked side that allows Amazon to sustain that undeserved multiple. I use Amazon to buy practically everything except clothing and I think it's a great service, but I still don't think it should have gone up against Apple with an iPad competitor (maybe it isn't, but the media is making it out to be by saying it's stealing iPad sales) because I think there are some lines a company shouldn't cross out of common courtesy. I doubt that Jeff Bezos would be happy if Apple started going into online sales of non-Apple products and with Apple's cash reserve, they could sell cheaper products for a short time and really hurt Amazon's bottom line.
I have played with a few that friends and family bought. They work as well as the iPad (Screen is a little too small) for most media related things. It seems like a good device for the price. This is the first tablet that should give Apple a little competition...
Empirically, Apple says that the Fire has not had any impact on iPad sales.
And, frankly, I wouldn't expect it to. The $99 HP Touchpad was a better device in almost every way - yet even it apparently didn't have much impact (if any) on iPad sales. It appears that people who can afford an iPad are not accepting lesser devices instead. People who are buying the Fire, HP TouchPad, etc were not likely to be in the market for an iPad, anyway.
This whole thing could play out to Apple's advantage,
Impact to Android tablet makers,
- The $199 price point could knee-cap other Android tablets. At a minimum, it severely de-values non-iPad tablets. Price points and consumer expectations are being re-leveled. The profits these manufacturers hoped to realize may never, ever materialize
- Asian manufacturers have no hope of executing an Amazon content-focused model. They do not have content strategy or services. Including Sony. It's a bit shocking that they found themselves in this predicament in 2012
Impact to Google,
- It completely forks the "Android platform" including app stores. Amazon has taken 2.3 and will do its own development off it. They will likely never add future Google enhancements like ICS. We are seeing fragmentation on the tablet side unlike anything we've seen on Android mobile
- Google makes no money from the Fire. Zero.
- There is substantial risk that the lack of tablet traction could start impacting Google's core mobile business. Consumers will increasingly search out platforms that cut across computer, phone, tablet and TV. No one wants to have to buy games, books, movies, etc.., twice. Everyone wants to have their content synced across all their devices
It could be a positive scenario for Apple for the Fire to gain some (but not a lot) of traction for the next couple of years to cause a collapse of the Android tablet market. And, to use pricing on iPad 2 as a lever to keep the Fire in check.
I expect Apple to take the iPad 2 to $399 as a starting point when they announce the iPad 3. They could take it down to $299 if they wanted to try to kill off the Fire
The above is pretty much true. Amazon may sell a bunch of Fires, but it doesn't seem to be hurting Apple and doesn't seem to be helping anyone else.
Competition? What planet are you from anyway? Is KIA competing with BMW? Two completely different markets. I really don't grok posts like yours.
There may be a little competition. It is more like a planet that only has BMWs and no other type of car. Then someone comes out with a KIA. I doubt it will have much short term effect on the iPad. Mainly because this is only going to appeal to Kindle users because of limited third party application support. This argument makes more sense when you are talking about Macs. Although with current prices it feels like buying a BMW for the price of a KIA.
Eventually this may be a real competitor. I think Apple has many options if they choose to compete though. They could make a less expensive iPad or a non-retina iPod touch with a double size screen. Of all Apple's products, the Kindle FIre is closest to an iPod Touch. You really need to look at it competing there.
The famous separation between hardware and software that Bill Gates created (his main genius insight) is coming to a close, and we are back in a world of Products.
For Amazon... shipped is sold.
I really have trouble believing this is possible. It would mean that 50% of the tablets sold in the US were Kindle Fires. I could guess that 25% is within the realm of possibility based on the few that I have seen in the wild, which should put them under 2MM units. 2MM units also seems more in line with a production ramp-up, although they could have built stock up before launch.
You are right shipped is sold. However, there is a difference between Target buying the Kindles to sell to somebody and a person actually using the Kindle buying it. We don't know how many sold to retailers are sitting on shelves waiting to be sold to actual customers.
If the iPad didn't exist, I'd get the Nook Tablet. A family member got one for Christmas and it is a a very nice low end tablet. Of course one can argue that if there was no iPad there would be no Nook Tablet since iPad inspired a lot of the technology found in it.
The Nook is actually a better tablet than then the Fire. The Fire is doing well because of association with Amazon.