Yes, but none of the others are the largest corporation on the planet by market cap, so they have absolutely no responsibility for the condition of the workers in a country over whose laws they have no control. Apple does, however.
WHY would the so-called "largest market cap" make Apple responsible for a sovereign country's labor policies--is Apple considered a separate nation, too?
The difference is Foxconn workers have the option to leave when they want. Of course, having the option doesn't mean it's a viable one. I certainly will never understand how poor life must be for these people that they choose to work at Foxconn.
Yeah, I guess they do have a choice to work for one company which has terrible conditions or another one with the same (or worse).
I'm guessing that it's a vicious cycle in these areas of China: the older members of the family can't work anymore, and have no pension or savings. So the younger members must start work as early as possible to support the family. Thus, they are unable to get higher education. And during their working years, they only make enough to support their family. So when they grow old, they must rely on the next generation to do the same for them since they have no pension or savings. And the cycle continues...
Yes, but none of the others are the largest corporation on the planet by market cap, so they have absolutely no responsibility for the condition of the workers in a country over whose laws they have no control. Apple does, however.
WHY would the so-called "largest market cap" make Apple responsible for a sovereign country's labor policies--is Apple considered a separate nation, too?
Ask CNN and all these other outlets that have only started reporting on this nonsense since Apple's last earnings call. They seem to know why better than anyone else.
Of course, everyone else doesn't believe such foolish stuff, so 'better' is relative.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curmudgeon
That's a load of baloney.
Apparently the bleeding sarcasm didn't seep through.
Yes, but none of the others are the largest corporation on the planet by market cap, so they have absolutely no responsibility for the condition of the workers in a country over whose laws they have no control. Apple does, however.
I think mindshare is the most important factor here. Even before the iPad, iPhone, and switch to Intel for their Macs (though I'd say after Mac OS X and the iPod) Apple was still looked upon as the company to beat in terms of HW and OS refinement. They were considered expensive, but they were considered the ones to beat. Even back in the late 90s when Apple adopted USB they weren't the first but they were the ones to adopt it across the board while dropping legacy ports which helped push the standard forward for everyone. I think that's a direct result of mindshare, not market share or cap.
WHY would the so-called "largest market cap" make Apple responsible for a sovereign country's labor policies--is Apple considered a separate nation, too?
No, but there has to be a line drawn somewhere. Let's say there was a country somewhere that did allow genuine slave labor, and they allowed that slave labor to be used by companies that make iPads etc. Would it be acceptable for Apple to use the manufacturer in that circumstance even though they don't set labor practices in a sovereign country? I think it would be unacceptable, so the argument is where do you draw the line as to what is acceptable.
Personally, I like the idea that I'm buying from a company that treats it's workers well. If Apple are not (and I'm taking no position on whether or not they are), I hope things are done to improve it.
Some Foxconn workers are apparently whiners. They had better get back to work so that they can get busy and assemble my iPad 3. The conditions there are just fine. So they work 60 hours? Big fucking deal, plenty of people work more than that. Some ignorant people like to mention their suicide rate, which happens to be less than the general population, that's awesome for them! Congratulations to them, they are very fortunate.
These people can also thank Foxconn that they're not working in some rice field someplace, I bet that's more of a back breaking job than working for Foxconn which also probably pays a bit more than standing in some rice field.
So in conclusion, quit your whining, get back to work and assemble my new iPad 3, comprende?
If you don't like it, then quit your job. Whining will get you nowhere.
I bet Dell, HP and all the others hate hearing news like this. Apple, although using Foxconn to build their stuff, has a far better record than any of these other companies with regards to foreign working conditions.
I bet they're hoping the spotlight doesn't come their way to show how bad conditions are for their workers.
Worse yet, seeing Apple spend a couple billion to improve conditions for their workers knowing that they'll all have to follow suit and spend as well.
BTW, why does she have to work 60 hours per week? Why not hire two people and make them each work 30 hours per week? It's not like there's a shortage of workers and Foxconn can't find any additional people. I doubt she's being "forced" to work 60 hours, and she probably would prefer 60 to 30 (and half pay).
No, but there has to be a line drawn somewhere. Let's say there was a country somewhere that did allow genuine slave labor, and they allowed that slave labor to be used by companies that make iPads etc. Would it be acceptable for Apple to use the manufacturer in that circumstance even though they don't set labor practices in a sovereign country? I think it would be unacceptable, so the argument is where do you draw the line as to what is acceptable.
Personally, I like the idea that I'm buying from a company that treats it's workers well. If Apple are not (and I'm taking no position on whether or not they are), I hope things are done to improve it.
BUT the point is--why single out Apple as I indicated on my post--there are tons of Asian/American/European companies that use FOXCONN for their manufactured products--so as lawyers like to state.."what is good for the goose, is also good for the gander"--meaning everyone is EQUAL under the eyes of the law--be it beneficial or otherwise!
There should be NO prejudice or bias of one company over the others! Because all these other companies ALSO use FOXCONN! In fact there was that Microsoft complaint regarding alleged attempted Foxconn suicides, too!
I do not understand WHY fellow Americans are trying to sabotage/undermine a successful American entrepreneurial company!
BTW, Apple is NOT a lawmaking body, so their sincere attempts to IMPROVE the working conditions in China is very limited--it is still the Chinese legislative body that can issue laws protecting their citizens!
For those trying to point out that almost every other tech company manufactures in the same factories (see the Xbox mass suicide threat) your efforts are futile. Apple has been targeted, the media has focused on them, the activists smell blood in the water. Apple is to be made an example of and the media and critics won't stop until Apple is taken down and destroyed over this. The idea is to put fear into the remaining manufacturers, to get them to tow the activist line (see Greenpeace's tactics against Apple). Out of nowhere this has become the political issues du jour. Apple will be held up for ridicule in the presidential election campaigns. Populism rules in an election year. The politicians have to have someone to blame for their failure to bring the economy back and Apple's success in spite of the economy makes them the perfect target.
So forget about listing all the companies doing the same thing. Forget about trying to point out the hypocrisy of it all. It won't work. Apple is in the cross-hairs and they WILL be made to suffer for their success. The loser/haters on the tech sites already have their marching orders and talking points.
That's how it goes in America these days. Apple really is doomed now. Just wait and watch the bloodbath.
Yeah, I guess they do have a choice to work for one company which has terrible conditions or another one with the same (or worse).
I'm guessing that it's a vicious cycle in these areas of China: the older members of the family can't work anymore, and have no pension or savings. So the younger members must start work as early as possible to support the family. Thus, they are unable to get higher education. And during their working years, they only make enough to support their family. So when they grow old, they must rely on the next generation to do the same for them since they have no pension or savings. And the cycle continues...
The cycle isn't continuing for everyone. The rate at which cars are being adopted over bikes and the rate at which other previously considered luxury items are becoming standard is significant. Their economy is changing. There are a lot of similarities to the US and other countries being industrialized.
We can put on our hippie hemp clothing, play with our hacky sack, and claim that no one should ever suffer for a nation to advancement ? and that's a great theoretical goal to aspire to ? but it's not realistic. If we deny these Chinese these jobs then we deny them of an option and a future for their children.
Let Apple or any company build small factories in the U.S. and build a small # of their products here. Of course because of the higher costs to make them they will cost more. Then true humanitarians can speak with their wallets and buy American. I think the manufacturers know that we won't buy American because we are greedy and don't really give a rats ass about Chinese workers. Hey we don't even care about how badly we are treated here. Give me a break. Sorry China, we don't care, This is America. Beyond giving money to disaster relief out of guilt and embarrassment we want you to remain invisible, unless of course getting web hits to make advertising $$$$$$ works.
I'm not justifying the working conditions at Foxconn or the use of over seas labor,
but in terms the overall labor conditions and wages in Chinese manufacturing,
companies like Foxconn are at the top of the pack and the have hundreds of people lining up for these jobs.
You think the working conditions stink at electronics factories,
check out your average toy, garment, or household good factory in China.
They are much worse with even lower wages.
If your gonna get upset Apple, you might as well get pissed at every other brand that is sold at Target or Walmart.
People like to raise a stink about Apple because they are on top,
but 90% of what you own is made in China
including your pants, your shoes, your kids toys, your TV, you alarm clock, the parts in your car, your Android phone, your Windows phone, your apple juice, everything....
all under the same lousy working conditions or worse.
These problems are real, and they can be addressed, and they NEED to be addressed (better), and Apple hasn’t solved them yet. Apple never pretended to, and nobody inside or outside Apple thinks they have.
What Apple does have is a true commitment (not PR) on these problems, and a record of improvement. It’s not enough of course, and CNN’s ad-baiting may have one good side-effect if it pushes for change faster.
Or, CNN’s ad-baiting could simply let all the non-Apple companies off the hook, making the problem worse and the solutions slower, for millions of people. Apple, by all evidence, is the BEST major electronics company in this regard. When you report on a problem, you should contrast those who are solving the problem with those who are not; instead, the media seems to want everyone to boycott* those who are solving the problem, and buy from other companies who are actually worse.
* Nah, they just want to sell ads. “Journalism” is dead.
I disagree....for an American company they should base their jobs in the US. It does everything for them and the US......As far as profit goes. Apple has more cash than they know what to do with. At some point American corporations as a whole need to stop offshoring jobs. I do not fault Apple or any other copr for doing well. But you can't argue and say that would hurt them...as it would not slow down sales at all. I agree it would hurt the bottom line by either raising prices slightly or lowering profit margins
It was in Apple's best interest to move these assembly jobs to the the US they would. If the government saw a value to these aseembly jobs - they could create a climate where supporting those assembly jobs would be in a company's best interest and they would be here. And they employ a lot of Americans (as well as other native workers in other countries as well) - perhaps they should offer jobs for Americans overseas? Because you cannot build the same assembly line operations here for anything close to the cost of building it there - that's why the assembly jobs and facilities are where they are.
And how do you support a statement like "Apple has more cash than they know what to do with"? More accurately, you might say Apple has more cash than YOU know what to do with, but you do not know what plans Apple has for that money. Just a brief burst of speculation (since it seems from their reports that a majority of it is overseas) would allow for things like, rapidly building out a larger Apple retail presence in China and India, funding additional higher level operations developments(like they do with their current partners), that will allow them to build still more innovative and disruptive devices, or building additional facilities in Israel for research, for example.
EDIT: most of these points were made previously following the original post.
Comments
Yes, but none of the others are the largest corporation on the planet by market cap, so they have absolutely no responsibility for the condition of the workers in a country over whose laws they have no control. Apple does, however.
WHY would the so-called "largest market cap" make Apple responsible for a sovereign country's labor policies--is Apple considered a separate nation, too?
The difference is Foxconn workers have the option to leave when they want. Of course, having the option doesn't mean it's a viable one. I certainly will never understand how poor life must be for these people that they choose to work at Foxconn.
Yeah, I guess they do have a choice to work for one company which has terrible conditions or another one with the same (or worse).
I'm guessing that it's a vicious cycle in these areas of China: the older members of the family can't work anymore, and have no pension or savings. So the younger members must start work as early as possible to support the family. Thus, they are unable to get higher education. And during their working years, they only make enough to support their family. So when they grow old, they must rely on the next generation to do the same for them since they have no pension or savings. And the cycle continues...
Yes, but none of the others are the largest corporation on the planet by market cap, so they have absolutely no responsibility for the condition of the workers in a country over whose laws they have no control. Apple does, however.
That's a load of baloney.
WHY would the so-called "largest market cap" make Apple responsible for a sovereign country's labor policies--is Apple considered a separate nation, too?
Ask CNN and all these other outlets that have only started reporting on this nonsense since Apple's last earnings call. They seem to know why better than anyone else.
Of course, everyone else doesn't believe such foolish stuff, so 'better' is relative.
That's a load of baloney.
Apparently the bleeding sarcasm didn't seep through.
Yes, but none of the others are the largest corporation on the planet by market cap, so they have absolutely no responsibility for the condition of the workers in a country over whose laws they have no control. Apple does, however.
I think mindshare is the most important factor here. Even before the iPad, iPhone, and switch to Intel for their Macs (though I'd say after Mac OS X and the iPod) Apple was still looked upon as the company to beat in terms of HW and OS refinement. They were considered expensive, but they were considered the ones to beat. Even back in the late 90s when Apple adopted USB they weren't the first but they were the ones to adopt it across the board while dropping legacy ports which helped push the standard forward for everyone. I think that's a direct result of mindshare, not market share or cap.
WHY would the so-called "largest market cap" make Apple responsible for a sovereign country's labor policies--is Apple considered a separate nation, too?
No, but there has to be a line drawn somewhere. Let's say there was a country somewhere that did allow genuine slave labor, and they allowed that slave labor to be used by companies that make iPads etc. Would it be acceptable for Apple to use the manufacturer in that circumstance even though they don't set labor practices in a sovereign country? I think it would be unacceptable, so the argument is where do you draw the line as to what is acceptable.
Personally, I like the idea that I'm buying from a company that treats it's workers well. If Apple are not (and I'm taking no position on whether or not they are), I hope things are done to improve it.
see what I did there?
Joking aside, someone needs to shoehorn some western working conditions in there. Most notably with the hours. I thought my 40 hour week was bad...
Some Foxconn workers are apparently whiners. They had better get back to work so that they can get busy and assemble my iPad 3. The conditions there are just fine. So they work 60 hours? Big fucking deal, plenty of people work more than that. Some ignorant people like to mention their suicide rate, which happens to be less than the general population, that's awesome for them! Congratulations to them, they are very fortunate.
These people can also thank Foxconn that they're not working in some rice field someplace, I bet that's more of a back breaking job than working for Foxconn which also probably pays a bit more than standing in some rice field.
So in conclusion, quit your whining, get back to work and assemble my new iPad 3, comprende?
If you don't like it, then quit your job. Whining will get you nowhere.
Now that's thinking differently!
I bet they're hoping the spotlight doesn't come their way to show how bad conditions are for their workers.
Worse yet, seeing Apple spend a couple billion to improve conditions for their workers knowing that they'll all have to follow suit and spend as well.
BTW, why does she have to work 60 hours per week? Why not hire two people and make them each work 30 hours per week? It's not like there's a shortage of workers and Foxconn can't find any additional people. I doubt she's being "forced" to work 60 hours, and she probably would prefer 60 to 30 (and half pay).
No, but there has to be a line drawn somewhere. Let's say there was a country somewhere that did allow genuine slave labor, and they allowed that slave labor to be used by companies that make iPads etc. Would it be acceptable for Apple to use the manufacturer in that circumstance even though they don't set labor practices in a sovereign country? I think it would be unacceptable, so the argument is where do you draw the line as to what is acceptable.
Personally, I like the idea that I'm buying from a company that treats it's workers well. If Apple are not (and I'm taking no position on whether or not they are), I hope things are done to improve it.
BUT the point is--why single out Apple as I indicated on my post--there are tons of Asian/American/European companies that use FOXCONN for their manufactured products--so as lawyers like to state.."what is good for the goose, is also good for the gander"--meaning everyone is EQUAL under the eyes of the law--be it beneficial or otherwise!
There should be NO prejudice or bias of one company over the others! Because all these other companies ALSO use FOXCONN! In fact there was that Microsoft complaint regarding alleged attempted Foxconn suicides, too!
I do not understand WHY fellow Americans are trying to sabotage/undermine a successful American entrepreneurial company!
BTW, Apple is NOT a lawmaking body, so their sincere attempts to IMPROVE the working conditions in China is very limited--it is still the Chinese legislative body that can issue laws protecting their citizens!
So forget about listing all the companies doing the same thing. Forget about trying to point out the hypocrisy of it all. It won't work. Apple is in the cross-hairs and they WILL be made to suffer for their success. The loser/haters on the tech sites already have their marching orders and talking points.
That's how it goes in America these days. Apple really is doomed now. Just wait and watch the bloodbath.
Yeah, I guess they do have a choice to work for one company which has terrible conditions or another one with the same (or worse).
I'm guessing that it's a vicious cycle in these areas of China: the older members of the family can't work anymore, and have no pension or savings. So the younger members must start work as early as possible to support the family. Thus, they are unable to get higher education. And during their working years, they only make enough to support their family. So when they grow old, they must rely on the next generation to do the same for them since they have no pension or savings. And the cycle continues...
The cycle isn't continuing for everyone. The rate at which cars are being adopted over bikes and the rate at which other previously considered luxury items are becoming standard is significant. Their economy is changing. There are a lot of similarities to the US and other countries being industrialized.
We can put on our hippie hemp clothing, play with our hacky sack, and claim that no one should ever suffer for a nation to advancement ? and that's a great theoretical goal to aspire to ? but it's not realistic. If we deny these Chinese these jobs then we deny them of an option and a future for their children.
but in terms the overall labor conditions and wages in Chinese manufacturing,
companies like Foxconn are at the top of the pack and the have hundreds of people lining up for these jobs.
You think the working conditions stink at electronics factories,
check out your average toy, garment, or household good factory in China.
They are much worse with even lower wages.
If your gonna get upset Apple, you might as well get pissed at every other brand that is sold at Target or Walmart.
People like to raise a stink about Apple because they are on top,
but 90% of what you own is made in China
including your pants, your shoes, your kids toys, your TV, you alarm clock, the parts in your car, your Android phone, your Windows phone, your apple juice, everything....
all under the same lousy working conditions or worse.
What Apple does have is a true commitment (not PR) on these problems, and a record of improvement. It’s not enough of course, and CNN’s ad-baiting may have one good side-effect if it pushes for change faster.
Or, CNN’s ad-baiting could simply let all the non-Apple companies off the hook, making the problem worse and the solutions slower, for millions of people. Apple, by all evidence, is the BEST major electronics company in this regard. When you report on a problem, you should contrast those who are solving the problem with those who are not; instead, the media seems to want everyone to boycott* those who are solving the problem, and buy from other companies who are actually worse.
* Nah, they just want to sell ads. “Journalism” is dead.
Now that's thinking differently!
Please don't feed the animals.
Apple really is doomed now.
Hearing a pronouncement like that makes me all nostalgic for the thousands and thousands of times people have said that and were wrong before...
I disagree....for an American company they should base their jobs in the US. It does everything for them and the US......As far as profit goes. Apple has more cash than they know what to do with. At some point American corporations as a whole need to stop offshoring jobs. I do not fault Apple or any other copr for doing well. But you can't argue and say that would hurt them...as it would not slow down sales at all. I agree it would hurt the bottom line by either raising prices slightly or lowering profit margins
It was in Apple's best interest to move these assembly jobs to the the US they would. If the government saw a value to these aseembly jobs - they could create a climate where supporting those assembly jobs would be in a company's best interest and they would be here. And they employ a lot of Americans (as well as other native workers in other countries as well) - perhaps they should offer jobs for Americans overseas? Because you cannot build the same assembly line operations here for anything close to the cost of building it there - that's why the assembly jobs and facilities are where they are.
And how do you support a statement like "Apple has more cash than they know what to do with"? More accurately, you might say Apple has more cash than YOU know what to do with, but you do not know what plans Apple has for that money. Just a brief burst of speculation (since it seems from their reports that a majority of it is overseas) would allow for things like, rapidly building out a larger Apple retail presence in China and India, funding additional higher level operations developments(like they do with their current partners), that will allow them to build still more innovative and disruptive devices, or building additional facilities in Israel for research, for example.
EDIT: most of these points were made previously following the original post.