I'm in favor of more taxes for corporations that outsource heavily.
Trickle down has failed. Apple doesn't outsource heavily...even 100 million today is a sneeze and quadrupling that isn't that big of a deal as compared to manufacturing in China but at some point the US Government has to stick to their guns and start taxing appropriately
What rank hypocrisy!
Are you also not in favor of not 'outsourcing' our need for petroleum products, and instead, drilling locally? (And if we can't/won't, then you agree to live without the internal combustion engine?)
How about not 'outsourcing' for our need for German/Japanese cars, but make them here instead? (And, if we don't/can't, would you only drive one made in the USA with fully USA-made parts?)
Why 'outsource' for components such as casings, glass, semiconductors? It they won't be made here, would you not consume the products (such as iPods, iPads, Macs, iPhones) that use such imported components?
Why are not these - I could add dozens more - examples of 'failed trickle down'? Because they suit your lifestyle?
... we have not created opportunities for the US in manufacturing.
I know people that are steering away from Engineering and Comp Sci majors simply because
the "there aren't enough qualified US citizens to hire" coming from companies becomes a
self fulfilling prophecy as students begin to avoid areas that are easily outsourced.
To the first part, there have been a number of opportunities in manufacturing created over the past 20-30 years within the US. You either need to run a very very tight ship, or you need to be protected by things like defense contracts.
As for the second part, everything I see is that those disciplines no longer attract the "best and brightest", as everybody wants to be a lawyer or a finance person. The number of grads is reasonably consistent over time, but aptitude has dropped. There is also the issue of work ethics, but I understand both sides of that coin.
I am not sure we know enough about Apple's investment in India to make assumptions. It could be work targeting the Indian population. It could be debugging work.
The article seems to indicate that Apple will outsource developing applications to support its internal IT requirements (e.g. shipping, supply chain management, etc...) rather than directly develop end-user code.
You don't say? Did anyone ever think it could work? The most transparent excuse ever by the rich to feed the rich. The fact that anyone but the very wealthy could ever buy into such a theory is pretty unbelievable when you think about it.
Ok, enough of that (Just jumped out at me and struck me kind of funny)
I am not sure we know enough about Apple's investment in India to make assumptions. It could be work targeting the Indian population. It could be debugging work.
Reminds of a quote from Black Adder.
Baldrick: They say he's half-way to being the new Robin Hood.
Edmund: Why only half-way?
Baldrick: Well he steals from the rich, but he hasn't got round to giving it to the poor yet.
I know people that are steering away from Engineering and Comp Sci majors simply because
the "there aren't enough qualified US citizens to hire" coming from companies becomes a
self fulfilling prophecy as students begin to avoid areas that are easily outsourced.
In the (very high-quality) university in the town where I live, nearly 100% of the Masters' students in CS are of either Indian or Chinese descent. There isn't a single white (or black or hispanic) kid born in the US in the Masters' program. And, every single one of them that I know works for a company in the US. Not one has gone back to India or China.
I can understand Apple making hardware overseas in places like China, but why would they need to outsource the creative portion?
Will the next version of Mac OS X come with a built in Indian accent? It's not enough that I have to speak with somebody with an Indian accent whenever I call certain US companies who are greedy bastards and they outsource their support lines to foreigners who speak piss poor English that sounds like gibberish half of the time?
In the (very high-quality) university in the town where I live, nearly 100% of the Masters' students in CS are of either Indian or Chinese descent. There isn't a single white (or black or hispanic) kid born in the US in the Masters' program. And, every single one of them that I know works for a company in the US. Not one has gone back to India or China.
my best friend majored in CS and minored in math. at university a chinese student stole his work and tried to pass it off as his own.
Don't worry my feeling won't be hurt. I have no political ambitions and realize
the nothing as as cut and dry as it would appear but at many levels we have not
created opportunities for the US in manufacturing.
I know people that are steering away from Engineering and Comp Sci majors simply because
the "there aren't enough qualified US citizens to hire" coming from companies becomes a
self fulfilling prophecy as students begin to avoid areas that are easily outsourced.
Well, since you encourage me , here it is :
I am myself an engineer, in a country which (like many others) watch the disappearing of industrial jobs (including the more qualified engineers ones). A country where, very often, many people blame those who expect a solution from the government to this situation.
Without entering into a political debate, my understanding of the US viewpoint is that "you" (as american) believe it is an illusion to expect any solution to this coming from the government, whatever it is (e.g. through whatever taxing scheme you may imagine). So I am surprised to read the opposite opinion from "you" (but my "knowledge" of American viewpoint may admittedly be wrong, of course).
Preserving jobs in high level wages countries can only be achieved through innovation, and this is precisely what Apple does. Apple is successful, Apple innovates, "what is good for Apple is good for "you"" (and for me, as Apple customer).
The jobs balance situation for lower margin products (say, PCs ...) can only be worse ...
Now, coming back to other posts about India, I think "you" should not underestimate Indian skills. A lot of Indian engineers have Phd level. They are extremely meticulous people (I can see that in my job, on which I prefer not to give any other details).
Many large companies (US and non-US) outsource software to India (e.g. Bangalore region).
This is probably part of gaining better access to the Indian market. They give India some work, the red tape clears on expanding their retail presence there, etc.
This news wouldn't bother me as much if Apple were outsourcing to firms that weren't as shady as Infosys.
I've worked extensively with Infosys at 2 US companies now. In each instance the best they could do was write unmaintainable code that doesn't scale but works in the short term. The worst they could do was instruct their TPMs to forward all of our proprietary tech documents and code back to India so they could use it on unrelated projects for other clients (btw this is not just a rumor I heard, I have first-hand knowledge of this happening).
I don't like this at all. When a company outsources programming to a country with inexpensive labour you can't help but lose a bit of your culture, philosophy, and even reliability in the process.
Unlike the workers at Foxconn who do an unpleasant and repetitive menial task all day you can't write code on an assembly line. A programmer is a thinker. They are not doing something repetitive otherwise that task could be had by a simple computer program. The best case scenario for farming is in bug testing but even that has potential pitfalls.
edit: I fond this:
Why Some Software Companies are Confusing the Box for the Chocolates
But writing innovative software cannot be done on an assembly line. It requires hard-to-find development and design skills. Farming out development to legions of programmers overseas will not create a differentiation advantage. When a technology company outsources software development, that company loses its capacity to innovate and its competitive advantage.
edit 2: Of course, if India is the next big market for Apple after China which is the reason for the push and they are finding great programmers, not just cheap programmers, then I withdrawal my complaints. That said, it sure doesn't read that way to me.
My first impulse was to agree 100%. What you have said is true.
When I read the article again though I get a sense that the application/s they will be developing and maintaining will be more along a database/accounting/supply chain management nature.
Indians have a long tradition of that kind of programming work. Not so much ... the more creative things you worry about. I guess I'll trust Apple knows what it's is doing and is only outsourcing that which is suitable to that particular subset of programming talent. However, see post #32. I hope this isn't the beginning of the Law of Large Numbers taking effect.
My first impulse was to agree 100%. What you have said is true.
When I read the article again though I get a sense that the application/s they will be developing and maintaining will be more along a database/accounting/supply chain management nature.
Indians have a long tradition of that kind of programming work. Not so much ... the more creative things you worry about. I guess I'll trust Apple knows what it's is doing and is only outsourcing that which is suitable to that particular subset of programming talent.
That article I linked to agrees with you...
Quote:
Outsourcing programmers works when the software developed isn?t a key part of the pipeline of innovation for products a company actually sells. For example, when website design or back-office software such as payroll or inventory control is outsourced, that can be good because it improves operational effectiveness.
In the (very high-quality) university in the town where I live, nearly 100% of the Masters' students in CS are of either Indian or Chinese descent. There isn't a single white (or black or hispanic) kid born in the US in the Masters' program. And, every single one of them that I know works for a company in the US. Not one has gone back to India or China.
Most of my CS friends are of foreign descent. Compared to other countries, the US doesn't strive for nor offer many engineering programs.
People in the states are too concerned for saving blue-collar jobs, or the other extreme, corporate (Wall St.) jobs. There's no willingness to continue 'expansionary' vocations like engineering, research or the arts -- folks are scared of losing their homes & so they'll take any job.
The pool of intellectual candidates is much smaller when your workforce is made up of baristas with less than a high school diploma.
Well the Trickle Down theory could perfectly well have been conceived by Black Adder himself.
I haven't seen an episode in donkey's years but reading the names in your post made me smile. Atkinson at his despicably best.
Remember the Stupid Prince. That was before Hugh Laurie was a household name... at least in the US. House MD will ending the series (and by series I mean the American usage) this year. I have to assume he will die, perhaps doing one last thing to stick to the man and prove he's right by taking his own life to save a patient.
the multitude of other companies that get rid of American workers in favor of workers in other countries that earn much much less and have much worse working conditions.
So why are they talking about expanding their headquarters if they are moving the jobs out of the country?
I don't like this at all. When a company outsources programming to a country with inexpensive labour you can't help but lose a bit of your culture, philosophy, and even reliability in the process.
Unlike the workers at Foxconn who do an unpleasant and repetitive menial task all day you can't write code on an assembly line. A programmer is a thinker. They are not doing something repetitive otherwise that task could be had by a simple computer program. The best case scenario for farming is in bug testing but even that has potential pitfalls.
edit: I fond this:
Why Some Software Companies are Confusing the Box for the Chocolates
But writing innovative software cannot be done on an assembly line. It requires hard-to-find development and design skills. Farming out development to legions of programmers overseas will not create a differentiation advantage. When a technology company outsources software development, that company loses its capacity to innovate and its competitive advantage.
edit 2: Of course, if India is the next big market for Apple after China which is the reason for the push and they are finding great programmers, not just cheap programmers, then I withdrawal my complaints. That said, it sure doesn't read that way to me.
edit 2: Of course, if India is the next big market for Apple after China which is the reason for the push and they are finding great programmers, not just cheap programmers, then I withdrawal my complaints. That said, it sure doesn't read that way to me.
Samsung's Bada OS was developed in India and since it is damn good, I would say there definitely is talent there.
Comments
I'm in favor of more taxes for corporations that outsource heavily.
Trickle down has failed. Apple doesn't outsource heavily...even 100 million today is a sneeze and quadrupling that isn't that big of a deal as compared to manufacturing in China but at some point the US Government has to stick to their guns and start taxing appropriately
What rank hypocrisy!
Are you also not in favor of not 'outsourcing' our need for petroleum products, and instead, drilling locally? (And if we can't/won't, then you agree to live without the internal combustion engine?)
How about not 'outsourcing' for our need for German/Japanese cars, but make them here instead? (And, if we don't/can't, would you only drive one made in the USA with fully USA-made parts?)
Why 'outsource' for components such as casings, glass, semiconductors? It they won't be made here, would you not consume the products (such as iPods, iPads, Macs, iPhones) that use such imported components?
Why are not these - I could add dozens more - examples of 'failed trickle down'? Because they suit your lifestyle?
... we have not created opportunities for the US in manufacturing.
I know people that are steering away from Engineering and Comp Sci majors simply because
the "there aren't enough qualified US citizens to hire" coming from companies becomes a
self fulfilling prophecy as students begin to avoid areas that are easily outsourced.
To the first part, there have been a number of opportunities in manufacturing created over the past 20-30 years within the US. You either need to run a very very tight ship, or you need to be protected by things like defense contracts.
As for the second part, everything I see is that those disciplines no longer attract the "best and brightest", as everybody wants to be a lawyer or a finance person. The number of grads is reasonably consistent over time, but aptitude has dropped. There is also the issue of work ethics, but I understand both sides of that coin.
I am not sure we know enough about Apple's investment in India to make assumptions. It could be work targeting the Indian population. It could be debugging work.
The article seems to indicate that Apple will outsource developing applications to support its internal IT requirements (e.g. shipping, supply chain management, etc...) rather than directly develop end-user code.
thanks America. keep on buying! we love you!
You don't say? Did anyone ever think it could work? The most transparent excuse ever by the rich to feed the rich. The fact that anyone but the very wealthy could ever buy into such a theory is pretty unbelievable when you think about it.
Ok, enough of that (Just jumped out at me and struck me kind of funny)
I am not sure we know enough about Apple's investment in India to make assumptions. It could be work targeting the Indian population. It could be debugging work.
Reminds of a quote from Black Adder.
I know people that are steering away from Engineering and Comp Sci majors simply because
the "there aren't enough qualified US citizens to hire" coming from companies becomes a
self fulfilling prophecy as students begin to avoid areas that are easily outsourced.
In the (very high-quality) university in the town where I live, nearly 100% of the Masters' students in CS are of either Indian or Chinese descent. There isn't a single white (or black or hispanic) kid born in the US in the Masters' program. And, every single one of them that I know works for a company in the US. Not one has gone back to India or China.
Will the next version of Mac OS X come with a built in Indian accent? It's not enough that I have to speak with somebody with an Indian accent whenever I call certain US companies who are greedy bastards and they outsource their support lines to foreigners who speak piss poor English that sounds like gibberish half of the time?
In the (very high-quality) university in the town where I live, nearly 100% of the Masters' students in CS are of either Indian or Chinese descent. There isn't a single white (or black or hispanic) kid born in the US in the Masters' program. And, every single one of them that I know works for a company in the US. Not one has gone back to India or China.
my best friend majored in CS and minored in math. at university a chinese student stole his work and tried to pass it off as his own.
i guess no one is perfect....
Don't worry my feeling won't be hurt. I have no political ambitions and realize
the nothing as as cut and dry as it would appear but at many levels we have not
created opportunities for the US in manufacturing.
I know people that are steering away from Engineering and Comp Sci majors simply because
the "there aren't enough qualified US citizens to hire" coming from companies becomes a
self fulfilling prophecy as students begin to avoid areas that are easily outsourced.
Well, since you encourage me , here it is :
I am myself an engineer, in a country which (like many others) watch the disappearing of industrial jobs (including the more qualified engineers ones). A country where, very often, many people blame those who expect a solution from the government to this situation.
Without entering into a political debate, my understanding of the US viewpoint is that "you" (as american) believe it is an illusion to expect any solution to this coming from the government, whatever it is (e.g. through whatever taxing scheme you may imagine). So I am surprised to read the opposite opinion from "you" (but my "knowledge" of American viewpoint may admittedly be wrong, of course).
Preserving jobs in high level wages countries can only be achieved through innovation, and this is precisely what Apple does. Apple is successful, Apple innovates, "what is good for Apple is good for "you"" (and for me, as Apple customer).
The jobs balance situation for lower margin products (say, PCs ...) can only be worse ...
Now, coming back to other posts about India, I think "you" should not underestimate Indian skills. A lot of Indian engineers have Phd level. They are extremely meticulous people (I can see that in my job, on which I prefer not to give any other details).
Many large companies (US and non-US) outsource software to India (e.g. Bangalore region).
I've worked extensively with Infosys at 2 US companies now. In each instance the best they could do was write unmaintainable code that doesn't scale but works in the short term. The worst they could do was instruct their TPMs to forward all of our proprietary tech documents and code back to India so they could use it on unrelated projects for other clients (btw this is not just a rumor I heard, I have first-hand knowledge of this happening).
Reminds of a quote from Black Adder.
Well the Trickle Down theory could perfectly well have been conceived by Black Adder himself.
I haven't seen an episode in donkey's years but reading the names in your post made me smile. Atkinson at his despicably best.
I don't like this at all. When a company outsources programming to a country with inexpensive labour you can't help but lose a bit of your culture, philosophy, and even reliability in the process.
Unlike the workers at Foxconn who do an unpleasant and repetitive menial task all day you can't write code on an assembly line. A programmer is a thinker. They are not doing something repetitive otherwise that task could be had by a simple computer program. The best case scenario for farming is in bug testing but even that has potential pitfalls.
edit: I fond this:edit 2: Of course, if India is the next big market for Apple after China which is the reason for the push and they are finding great programmers, not just cheap programmers, then I withdrawal my complaints. That said, it sure doesn't read that way to me.
My first impulse was to agree 100%. What you have said is true.
When I read the article again though I get a sense that the application/s they will be developing and maintaining will be more along a database/accounting/supply chain management nature.
Indians have a long tradition of that kind of programming work. Not so much ... the more creative things you worry about. I guess I'll trust Apple knows what it's is doing and is only outsourcing that which is suitable to that particular subset of programming talent. However, see post #32. I hope this isn't the beginning of the Law of Large Numbers taking effect.
My first impulse was to agree 100%. What you have said is true.
When I read the article again though I get a sense that the application/s they will be developing and maintaining will be more along a database/accounting/supply chain management nature.
Indians have a long tradition of that kind of programming work. Not so much ... the more creative things you worry about. I guess I'll trust Apple knows what it's is doing and is only outsourcing that which is suitable to that particular subset of programming talent.
That article I linked to agrees with you...
Outsourcing programmers works when the software developed isn?t a key part of the pipeline of innovation for products a company actually sells. For example, when website design or back-office software such as payroll or inventory control is outsourced, that can be good because it improves operational effectiveness.
In the (very high-quality) university in the town where I live, nearly 100% of the Masters' students in CS are of either Indian or Chinese descent. There isn't a single white (or black or hispanic) kid born in the US in the Masters' program. And, every single one of them that I know works for a company in the US. Not one has gone back to India or China.
Most of my CS friends are of foreign descent. Compared to other countries, the US doesn't strive for nor offer many engineering programs.
People in the states are too concerned for saving blue-collar jobs, or the other extreme, corporate (Wall St.) jobs. There's no willingness to continue 'expansionary' vocations like engineering, research or the arts -- folks are scared of losing their homes & so they'll take any job.
The pool of intellectual candidates is much smaller when your workforce is made up of baristas with less than a high school diploma.
Well the Trickle Down theory could perfectly well have been conceived by Black Adder himself.
I haven't seen an episode in donkey's years but reading the names in your post made me smile. Atkinson at his despicably best.
Remember the Stupid Prince. That was before Hugh Laurie was a household name... at least in the US. House MD will ending the series (and by series I mean the American usage) this year. I have to assume he will die, perhaps doing one last thing to stick to the man and prove he's right by taking his own life to save a patient.
So why are they talking about expanding their headquarters if they are moving the jobs out of the country?
I don't like this at all. When a company outsources programming to a country with inexpensive labour you can't help but lose a bit of your culture, philosophy, and even reliability in the process.
Unlike the workers at Foxconn who do an unpleasant and repetitive menial task all day you can't write code on an assembly line. A programmer is a thinker. They are not doing something repetitive otherwise that task could be had by a simple computer program. The best case scenario for farming is in bug testing but even that has potential pitfalls.
edit: I fond this:edit 2: Of course, if India is the next big market for Apple after China which is the reason for the push and they are finding great programmers, not just cheap programmers, then I withdrawal my complaints. That said, it sure doesn't read that way to me.
Could not agree more.
edit 2: Of course, if India is the next big market for Apple after China which is the reason for the push and they are finding great programmers, not just cheap programmers, then I withdrawal my complaints. That said, it sure doesn't read that way to me.
Samsung's Bada OS was developed in India and since it is damn good, I would say there definitely is talent there.
Samsung's Bada OS was developed in India and since it is damn good, I would say there definitely is talent there.
Bada does look promising so perhaps this world is smaller and more congealed than I think it is.