Manufacturing something overseas because we don't have that kind of labor pool or capacity is one thing. But we have thousands of highly skilled, high educated software developers right here in the US. Apple, do the right thing and keep those jobs here. You have NO excuse!
I don't like this at all. When a company outsources programming to a country with inexpensive labour you can't help but lose a bit of your culture, philosophy, and even reliability in the process.
Unlike the workers at Foxconn who do an unpleasant and repetitive menial task all day you can't write code on an assembly line. A programmer is a thinker. They are not doing something repetitive otherwise that task could be had by a simple computer program. The best case scenario for farming is in bug testing but even that has potential pitfalls.
edit: I fond this:
Why Some Software Companies are Confusing the Box for the Chocolates
But writing innovative software cannot be done on an assembly line. It requires hard-to-find development and design skills. Farming out development to legions of programmers overseas will not create a differentiation advantage. When a technology company outsources software development, that company loses its capacity to innovate and its competitive advantage.
edit 2: Of course, if India is the next big market for Apple after China which is the reason for the push and they are finding great programmers, not just cheap programmers, then I withdrawal my complaints. That said, it sure doesn't read that way to me.
I figured you'd complain even harder after reading "loses its capacity to innovate"
I'm in favor of more taxes for corporations that outsource heavily.
Trickle down has failed. Apple doesn't outsource heavily...even 100 million today is a sneeze and quadrupling that isn't that big of a deal as compared to manufacturing in China but at some point the US Government has to stick to their guns and start taxing appropriately
I'm in favor of more taxes for corporations that outsource heavily.
Trickle down has failed. Apple doesn't outsource heavily...even 100 million today is a sneeze and quadrupling that isn't that big of a deal as compared to manufacturing in China but at some point the US Government has to stick to their guns and start taxing appropriately
"Our" government that is openly - and legally - bought by multinationals is the one making these policies. Republican or Democrat, they only care enough to play lip service to try to win elections. From Nixon on, the policy has essentially shifted to pushing jobs away from here. People can blame Obama or Bush as though it's a party issue, but Clinton and Bush I were also heavily into it.
First blue collar manufacturing, then white collar work has gone. Of course my favorite joke about it was Bush explaining that people without jobs should use tax credits (offsetting an income of 0???) go back to community college to get advanced degrees in biotech since that's where all the new jobs were going to be. Uh-huh, right. Because it would be impossible to outsource/offshore biotech, right? No, wait...
Corporations can increase their profits, and as they point out, they're not in it to do what's right for the people. Unfortunately, neither are most politicians.
There's nothing to say. If corporations paid their fair share like we're forced to do the US would be in great shape.
I'm not for double-taxing companies, but it's exactly that - if they keep money overseas and move jobs overseas, they don't pay workers here who would pay taxes and they don't pay taxes on their own profits because of tax shell games. Win-win for them, anyway.
Are you also not in favor of not 'outsourcing' our need for petroleum products, and instead, drilling locally? (And if we can't/won't, then you agree to live without the internal combustion engine?)
How about not 'outsourcing' for our need for German/Japanese cars, but make them here instead? (And, if we don't/can't, would you only drive one made in the USA with fully USA-made parts?)
Why 'outsource' for components such as casings, glass, semiconductors? It they won't be made here, would you not consume the products (such as iPods, iPads, Macs, iPhones) that use such imported components?
Why are not these - I could add dozens more - examples of 'failed trickle down'? Because they suit your lifestyle?
I'm not for double-taxing companies, but it's exactly that - if they keep money overseas and move jobs overseas, they don't pay workers here who would pay taxes and they don't pay taxes on their own profits because of tax shell games. Win-win for them, anyway.
I'm not even talking about double-taxing. Many corporations pay almost zero federal tax on money earned here.
I don't like this at all. When a company outsources programming to a country with inexpensive labour you can't help but lose a bit of your culture, philosophy, and even reliability in the process.
Unlike the workers at Foxconn who do an unpleasant and repetitive menial task all day you can't write code on an assembly line. A programmer is a thinker. They are not doing something repetitive otherwise that task could be had by a simple computer program. The best case scenario for farming is in bug testing but even that has potential pitfalls.
edit: I fond this:
Why Some Software Companies are Confusing the Box for the Chocolates
But writing innovative software cannot be done on an assembly line. It requires hard-to-find development and design skills. Farming out development to legions of programmers overseas will not create a differentiation advantage. When a technology company outsources software development, that company loses its capacity to innovate and its competitive advantage.
edit 2: Of course, if India is the next big market for Apple after China which is the reason for the push and they are finding great programmers, not just cheap programmers, then I withdrawal my complaints. That said, it sure doesn't read that way to me.
I don't think Apple is outsourcing software development just because of cheap labor. India has the reputation of having the best programmers on the planet. I definitely think all the software design should strictly be kept where it is done today. Where as ome of the actual code wrighting may as well be performed in India.
What a busy week! It's a good thing Tim Cook has truthfully told us how "Apple takes working conditions very, very seriously, and ? [has]? for a long time." And what could be more obvious? Certainly no company achieves a $100B surplus without being serious about these things for an extended period. It takes time, thought, planning, and passion to establish a huge manufacturing base in places which - unlike the collapsing empire I live in - regard "human rights" as a notion on par with "virgin birth."
Having a large, entitled, passively unemployed population mad for a product built by vast numbers of people who can't afford to own it is a veritable tour de force of long-term seriousness. I'll applaud just as soon as I stop retching.
Here's to the corporation, the dominant institution of our time and the finest flower of mass psychosis! God is (thank God) dead, the state is a wholly owned subsidiary of ToxiCo?, and the relatively small portion of humanity which has the opportunity to know better is too busy watching some dour woman made of plastic and anger joylessly mime sex in the midst of a mock-war where 300 lb. drug addicts are paid vast fortunes to concuss each other's brains until they become a danger to themselves and their spouses.
What a busy week! It's a good thing Tim Cook has truthfully told us how "Apple takes working conditions very, very seriously, and ? [has]? for a long time." And what could be more obvious? Certainly no company achieves a $100B surplus without being serious about these things for an extended period. It takes time, thought, planning, and passion to establish a huge manufacturing base in places which - unlike the collapsing empire I live in - regard "human rights" as a notion on par with "virgin birth."
Having a large, entitled, passively unemployed population mad for a product built by vast numbers of people who can't afford to own it is a veritable tour de force of long-term seriousness. I'll applaud just as soon as I stop retching.
Here's to the corporation, the dominant institution of our time and the finest flower of mass psychosis! God is (thank God) dead, the state is a wholly owned subsidiary of ToxiCo?, and the relatively small portion of humanity which has the opportunity to know better is too busy watching some dour woman made of plastic and anger joylessly mime sex in the midst of a mock-war where 300 lb. drug addicts are paid vast fortunes to concuss each other's brains until they become a danger to themselves and their spouses.
Thank God for ToxiCo?, I just don't feel right when my mercury and lead levels are low.
What a busy week! It's a good thing Tim Cook has truthfully told us how "Apple takes working conditions very, very seriously, and ? [has]? for a long time." And what could be more obvious? Certainly no company achieves a $100B surplus without being serious about these things for an extended period. It takes time, thought, planning, and passion to establish a huge manufacturing base in places which - unlike the collapsing empire I live in - regard "human rights" as a notion on par with "virgin birth."
Having a large, entitled, passively unemployed population mad for a product built by vast numbers of people who can't afford to own it is a veritable tour de force of long-term seriousness. I'll applaud just as soon as I stop retching.
Here's to the corporation, the dominant institution of our time and the finest flower of mass psychosis! God is (thank God) dead, the state is a wholly owned subsidiary of ToxiCo?, and the relatively small portion of humanity which has the opportunity to know better is too busy watching some dour woman made of plastic and anger joylessly mime sex in the midst of a mock-war where 300 lb. drug addicts are paid vast fortunes to concuss each other's brains until they become a danger to themselves and their spouses.
Great writing. Keep it up!
I don't necessarily agree with everything that was said, but the quality of the writing more than made it worth reading
Don't worry my feeling won't be hurt. I have no political ambitions and realize
the nothing as as cut and dry as it would appear but at many levels we have not
created opportunities for the US in manufacturing.
I know people that are steering away from Engineering and Comp Sci majors simply because
the "there aren't enough qualified US citizens to hire" coming from companies becomes a
self fulfilling prophecy as students begin to avoid areas that are easily outsourced.
This is turning in "Which came first, chicken or egg" type debate. Here is what I can tell you. Companies want to save resources, be it time, money or others. It's easier to hire a US citizen than it is to hire a non-US citizen who needs sponsorship for work permit.
If you want to know why people are turning away from Engineering and Comp Sci, one need look no further than our schooling. High school education has died. Students' math skills have been on the decline for years, partly due to the advent of calculators. So much emphasis is being given to soft skills like communication that people are losing sight of skills that are just as important like solid arithmetic.
Combine that with the increasing numbers of people majoring in fields such as business, economics, and liberal arts and decreasing numbers of US high school graduates going into engineering and other hard sciences.
As an Indian, who went to one of the best CS schools in US, I abhor Indian IT companies. Not so much because of what they do, or who works there, but because they bring a bad name to Indians everywhere, and back home people cannot see much difference between people who do 'coolie' tech jobs or those who do hardcore research. In short, I am not in favor of them from any perspective.
But to play the devil's advocate I wonder that whether same argument that some use here to defend Foxconn jobs does not apply to Indian IT companies? The Foxconn jobs are too shitty for Americans, and it is not a big deal if they leave America. Is that not true for Indian IT outsourcing jobs? No self-respecting engineer in US or India would like to do that kind of work.
Disclaimer: I live in US, and worked with/ know professors whose work contributed directly to various Apple products ranging from OS X/ NeXTSTEP to Siri. So I am squarely on your side.
Comments
I don't like this at all. When a company outsources programming to a country with inexpensive labour you can't help but lose a bit of your culture, philosophy, and even reliability in the process.
Unlike the workers at Foxconn who do an unpleasant and repetitive menial task all day you can't write code on an assembly line. A programmer is a thinker. They are not doing something repetitive otherwise that task could be had by a simple computer program. The best case scenario for farming is in bug testing but even that has potential pitfalls.
edit: I fond this:edit 2: Of course, if India is the next big market for Apple after China which is the reason for the push and they are finding great programmers, not just cheap programmers, then I withdrawal my complaints. That said, it sure doesn't read that way to me.
I figured you'd complain even harder after reading "loses its capacity to innovate"
I'm in favor of more taxes for corporations that outsource heavily.
Trickle down has failed. Apple doesn't outsource heavily...even 100 million today is a sneeze and quadrupling that isn't that big of a deal as compared to manufacturing in China but at some point the US Government has to stick to their guns and start taxing appropriately
I second that notion.
No, no, I won't say anything ....
There's nothing to say. If corporations paid their fair share like we're forced to do the US would be in great shape.
I'm in favor of more taxes for corporations that outsource heavily.
Trickle down has failed. Apple doesn't outsource heavily...even 100 million today is a sneeze and quadrupling that isn't that big of a deal as compared to manufacturing in China but at some point the US Government has to stick to their guns and start taxing appropriately
"Our" government that is openly - and legally - bought by multinationals is the one making these policies. Republican or Democrat, they only care enough to play lip service to try to win elections. From Nixon on, the policy has essentially shifted to pushing jobs away from here. People can blame Obama or Bush as though it's a party issue, but Clinton and Bush I were also heavily into it.
First blue collar manufacturing, then white collar work has gone. Of course my favorite joke about it was Bush explaining that people without jobs should use tax credits (offsetting an income of 0???) go back to community college to get advanced degrees in biotech since that's where all the new jobs were going to be. Uh-huh, right. Because it would be impossible to outsource/offshore biotech, right? No, wait...
Corporations can increase their profits, and as they point out, they're not in it to do what's right for the people. Unfortunately, neither are most politicians.
There's nothing to say. If corporations paid their fair share like we're forced to do the US would be in great shape.
I'm not for double-taxing companies, but it's exactly that - if they keep money overseas and move jobs overseas, they don't pay workers here who would pay taxes and they don't pay taxes on their own profits because of tax shell games. Win-win for them, anyway.
What rank hypocrisy!
Are you also not in favor of not 'outsourcing' our need for petroleum products, and instead, drilling locally? (And if we can't/won't, then you agree to live without the internal combustion engine?)
How about not 'outsourcing' for our need for German/Japanese cars, but make them here instead? (And, if we don't/can't, would you only drive one made in the USA with fully USA-made parts?)
Why 'outsource' for components such as casings, glass, semiconductors? It they won't be made here, would you not consume the products (such as iPods, iPads, Macs, iPhones) that use such imported components?
Why are not these - I could add dozens more - examples of 'failed trickle down'? Because they suit your lifestyle?
I'd happily live without the combustion engine.
Many German/Japanese cars are built in the US.
The glass on iDevices is made in the US.
I'm not for double-taxing companies, but it's exactly that - if they keep money overseas and move jobs overseas, they don't pay workers here who would pay taxes and they don't pay taxes on their own profits because of tax shell games. Win-win for them, anyway.
I'm not even talking about double-taxing. Many corporations pay almost zero federal tax on money earned here.
I don't like this at all. When a company outsources programming to a country with inexpensive labour you can't help but lose a bit of your culture, philosophy, and even reliability in the process.
Unlike the workers at Foxconn who do an unpleasant and repetitive menial task all day you can't write code on an assembly line. A programmer is a thinker. They are not doing something repetitive otherwise that task could be had by a simple computer program. The best case scenario for farming is in bug testing but even that has potential pitfalls.
edit: I fond this:edit 2: Of course, if India is the next big market for Apple after China which is the reason for the push and they are finding great programmers, not just cheap programmers, then I withdrawal my complaints. That said, it sure doesn't read that way to me.
I don't think Apple is outsourcing software development just because of cheap labor. India has the reputation of having the best programmers on the planet. I definitely think all the software design should strictly be kept where it is done today. Where as ome of the actual code wrighting may as well be performed in India.
I'm not even talking about double-taxing. Many corporations pay almost zero federal tax on money earned here.
...or negative, like GE: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/25/bu...pagewanted=all
India has the reputation of having the best programmers on the planet.
You're being sarcastic, right?
Already the software doesn't feel as stable as it used to. Now I know why.
Now upon closing an app you'll get a "Thank you, come again"
Having a large, entitled, passively unemployed population mad for a product built by vast numbers of people who can't afford to own it is a veritable tour de force of long-term seriousness. I'll applaud just as soon as I stop retching.
Here's to the corporation, the dominant institution of our time and the finest flower of mass psychosis! God is (thank God) dead, the state is a wholly owned subsidiary of ToxiCo?, and the relatively small portion of humanity which has the opportunity to know better is too busy watching some dour woman made of plastic and anger joylessly mime sex in the midst of a mock-war where 300 lb. drug addicts are paid vast fortunes to concuss each other's brains until they become a danger to themselves and their spouses.
What a busy week! It's a good thing Tim Cook has truthfully told us how "Apple takes working conditions very, very seriously, and ? [has]? for a long time." And what could be more obvious? Certainly no company achieves a $100B surplus without being serious about these things for an extended period. It takes time, thought, planning, and passion to establish a huge manufacturing base in places which - unlike the collapsing empire I live in - regard "human rights" as a notion on par with "virgin birth."
Having a large, entitled, passively unemployed population mad for a product built by vast numbers of people who can't afford to own it is a veritable tour de force of long-term seriousness. I'll applaud just as soon as I stop retching.
Here's to the corporation, the dominant institution of our time and the finest flower of mass psychosis! God is (thank God) dead, the state is a wholly owned subsidiary of ToxiCo?, and the relatively small portion of humanity which has the opportunity to know better is too busy watching some dour woman made of plastic and anger joylessly mime sex in the midst of a mock-war where 300 lb. drug addicts are paid vast fortunes to concuss each other's brains until they become a danger to themselves and their spouses.
Thank God for ToxiCo?, I just don't feel right when my mercury and lead levels are low.
What a busy week! It's a good thing Tim Cook has truthfully told us how "Apple takes working conditions very, very seriously, and ? [has]? for a long time." And what could be more obvious? Certainly no company achieves a $100B surplus without being serious about these things for an extended period. It takes time, thought, planning, and passion to establish a huge manufacturing base in places which - unlike the collapsing empire I live in - regard "human rights" as a notion on par with "virgin birth."
Having a large, entitled, passively unemployed population mad for a product built by vast numbers of people who can't afford to own it is a veritable tour de force of long-term seriousness. I'll applaud just as soon as I stop retching.
Here's to the corporation, the dominant institution of our time and the finest flower of mass psychosis! God is (thank God) dead, the state is a wholly owned subsidiary of ToxiCo?, and the relatively small portion of humanity which has the opportunity to know better is too busy watching some dour woman made of plastic and anger joylessly mime sex in the midst of a mock-war where 300 lb. drug addicts are paid vast fortunes to concuss each other's brains until they become a danger to themselves and their spouses.
Great writing. Keep it up!
I don't necessarily agree with everything that was said, but the quality of the writing more than made it worth reading
Don't worry my feeling won't be hurt. I have no political ambitions and realize
the nothing as as cut and dry as it would appear but at many levels we have not
created opportunities for the US in manufacturing.
I know people that are steering away from Engineering and Comp Sci majors simply because
the "there aren't enough qualified US citizens to hire" coming from companies becomes a
self fulfilling prophecy as students begin to avoid areas that are easily outsourced.
This is turning in "Which came first, chicken or egg" type debate. Here is what I can tell you. Companies want to save resources, be it time, money or others. It's easier to hire a US citizen than it is to hire a non-US citizen who needs sponsorship for work permit.
If you want to know why people are turning away from Engineering and Comp Sci, one need look no further than our schooling. High school education has died. Students' math skills have been on the decline for years, partly due to the advent of calculators. So much emphasis is being given to soft skills like communication that people are losing sight of skills that are just as important like solid arithmetic.
Combine that with the increasing numbers of people majoring in fields such as business, economics, and liberal arts and decreasing numbers of US high school graduates going into engineering and other hard sciences.
But to play the devil's advocate I wonder that whether same argument that some use here to defend Foxconn jobs does not apply to Indian IT companies? The Foxconn jobs are too shitty for Americans, and it is not a big deal if they leave America. Is that not true for Indian IT outsourcing jobs? No self-respecting engineer in US or India would like to do that kind of work.
Disclaimer: I live in US, and worked with/ know professors whose work contributed directly to various Apple products ranging from OS X/ NeXTSTEP to Siri. So I am squarely on your side.
Already the software doesn't feel as stable as it used to. Now I know why.
You've found Apple's internal inventory and IT systems less stable due to a rumor of the possibility of future outsourcing?
Wow.
Yet more American jobs shipped overseas. Thanks for nothing, Apple.
it is about skills and Americans programmers lack those. Look at engineering schools 90% of students are foreigners.