I second your comment. A fairly large company that I use to work for outsourced software to India, and our software was accidentally published to the very "open" web. I have many stories, but this one seems to be related to the story. Apple is very secretive. This just seems counter intuitive to me.
I'm willing to see what Apple is able to do in this case. They are unparalleled in their maniacal attention to detail. Give it time.
Sure, it was my annoyance, and a little bit too much Pastis that was speaking. I could guess your your ancestry from your username, and I automatically assumed that you were defending them, which many nationalistic Indians do.
Now, the same thing can be said of hiring people in india. Apple can supplement their American work force with people in India. That doesn't mean that Apple is replacing workers in the United States. Apple could be creating jobs in india that would have never been created in the United Sates to being with.
The pattern with nearly all companies is that positions are eliminated in the US when work goes to India, sometimes quite aggressively. That's the whole point usually. In fact the savings per worker is very the basis for the business case outsourcers try to sell.
While it is possible to make the case that manufacture in China is necessary for Apple to be competitive, there is simply no similarly plausible case that Apple needs software development in India to be competitive. Apple is now extremely competitive, thanks to its US-based design and software development.
Software, especially the kind of software Apple develops, is deeply connected with culture. Only a fool could imagine that Apple could have gotten to where it has by doing development in India, Asia generally, and, really, much of the planet outside Silicon Valley. This is not a reflection on the skills, talent, or intelligence of individual programmers, but of the nature of the job.
Working with outsourcing companies is even worse. They have a vested interest to do as little innovation as possible, as they systematically use contract terms to limit the scope of the work they must accomplish to the bare minimum, hence reducing their own costs to improve profitability, as any business will do. They will also use the most basic set of automated tests possible, as their goal is to reach 100% passing statistics, so their people are discouraged from adding tests.
For these and other reasons, really good Indian programmers try to get as far away from the likes of Wipro as they can, as soon as they are able. Apple would be wise to follow their example.
Of course I am. Nothing more, nothing less in this forum. The problem is blowhards like you who don't realize that basic fact.
Oh, and your derisive dismissal of Cook isn't even worthy of a semi-serious response.
So you both insult me and avoid coming up with any evidence to back your claim.
Doesn't sound like a very credible response, does it?
By the way, I am sure Cook is highly intelligent and capable in what he cares about. What I am saying is that he has shown no evidence he cares about software development. I stand by that.
You talk about facts, here is one: There isn't a single product made by Apple, either software or hardware, the development of which was led, initiated by, or even shepherded by Cook.
Wouldn't be surprised if this has something to do with the recent ban of foreign owned stores being lifted. $400 Million is a small price to pay to open the doors to a population almost 3x the USA. Granted most can't afford Apple products right now but the middle class in India is growing very rapidly.
The influx of $400 Million to the Indian economy is only going to accelerate that growth which will then result in more Apple product buyers. I bet in 3-5 years their investment will have paid off and then some.
So you both insult me and avoid coming up with any evidence to back your claim.
Doesn't sound like a very credible response, does it?
By the way, I am sure Cook is highly intelligent and capable in what he cares about. What I am saying is that he has shown no evidence he cares about software development. I stand by that.
You talk about facts, here is one: There isn't a single product made by Apple, either software or hardware, the development of which was led, initiated by, or even shepherded by Cook.
You win the prize. I was looking for a foil to work off of to make the point that has been missing in more than one thread today.
You say there isn't a single product traceable to Tim Cook. I say there is a quite obvious one: Apple itself, the company, since he started running the operations ten-plus years ago.
The most complex supply-chain operation in the world, the most vertically integrated and horizontally spread company in history, built under his watch and not so much under Steve Jobs's, I would think. He knows what he is doing with this company.
For all we know, this deal with software companies in India is about establishing a presence in the world's second largest market. Just as an example of stuff we don't know, how many languages will Siri need to know on the Indian subcontinent? Do we really think that the largest software team in Cupertino, the Siri team, should start bringing in programmer/linguists from every language group around the world? Do we not think that the world's number one knowledge company is going to have to source ideas -- software -- from around the world?
You win the prize. I was looking for a foil to work off of to make the point that has been missing in more than one thread today.
You say there isn't a single product traceable to Tim Cook. I say there is a quite obvious one: Apple itself, the company, since he started running the operations ten-plus years ago.
The most complex supply-chain operation in the world, the most vertically integrated and horizontally spread company in history, built under his watch and not so much under Steve Jobs's, I would think. He knows what he is doing with this company.
For all we know, this deal with software companies in India is about establishing a presence in the world's second largest market. Just as an example of stuff we don't know, how many languages will Siri need to know on the Indian subcontinent? Do we really think that the largest software team in Cupertino, the Siri team, should start bringing in programmer/linguists from every language group around the world? Do we not think that the world's number one knowledge company is going to have to source ideas -- software -- from around the world?
Think Different . . . how about Think Global?
I've read all these Comments and got a Sad Feeling... I can't argues with any points, because I don't know as much! But.... I doubt that this India Decision is something that Tim Cook just thought of, or was planning to do after Steve's Passing! It's more likely to be the Continuation of Steve's Long Term Vision....
Then I read this last paragraph
"For all we know, this deal with software companies in India is about establishing a presence in the world's second largest market. Just as an example of stuff we don't know, how many languages will Siri need to know on the Indian subcontinent? Do we really think that the largest software team in Cupertino, the Siri team, should start bringing in programmer/linguists from every language group around the world? Do we not think that the world's number one knowledge company is going to have to source ideas -- software -- from around the world?
Think Different . . . how about Think Global?"
And that cheered me up, because it made sense.... Gotta get the NATIVES doing the Native Language stuff for their own people!!! Besides The Good Will in that country, it's also a Practical Approach! It's Their Language, Their Turf... The Tools are still Made In USA, and the Indians (in this case) take care of the Last Mile!!!! Then they get to Support it!!!
I Suspect that Apple's Competitors, who will be trying to Copy Siri, they will be using Indians too for India, Chinese for China etc...
As long as the Mother Ship, Apple, is in a Firm Control, that's OK by me.... I don't think Apple are Simple Fools, obsessed about Profits ASAP!!! They already have that! Getting a foot in the door in India is HUGE!!! India is more Democratic than China!!! India creates a Nice Leverage for Apple vs. China!
Yes, sometimes I prefer to speak to American Customer Service person most of the time, but you gotta give Indians some credit too. They speak better English than we speak any of their language! To me that's another proof of SMART PEOPLE!!! And on many occasions those Indians tried harder to please, vs our own Americans who sometimes would be less accommodating!!!
Again, I don't think Apple is a bunch of fools... The Sky Is NOT Falling!
And please don't think I am some kind of Apple Blind Trust Fan Boy! Nope, as a matter of fact I've recently had been less than happy with my Apple Care.... But I'll bite my tongue for now.... The recent stories about abuses at Foxconn were no fun to read, but... I've had my issues with some of that journalism.... And I am satisfied with Apple's handling of that case far more than with the media's soundbites....
AAPL Shares are yet another testimony as to the Faith of Many Who Believe in Apple's Bright Future! It's not a crime, nor it's immoral to own any stock, including AAPL!!!! I've seen Regular People who own that stock - bus drivers, clerks... It's not just all wealthy folks with Play Money!!! They have Faith In Apple, and there is nothing wrong with that, and them being rewarded for that!!!
Again, I don't think Apple is a bunch of fools... The Sky Is NOT Falling!
India and China will be a huge part of Apple's Future!!! Eventually all of that will spread worldwide, I hope, and in a way it'll reinforce world piece! Why? Cause people will always crave the latest Apple products, and they'd want them to work! And the world is big enough for Apple and its competitors! Maybe those Competitors will eventually start stealing less from Apple and Innovate for REAL, which would keep Apple on its toes..., awake!!!!
Again, I don't think Apple is a bunch of fools... The Sky Is NOT Falling!
A lot of the recently insourced call centers don't speak the Queen's English with a perfect accent either. They have thick (often strongly Southern) accents that I can barely understand.
At least, many of the Indians make an effort to be understood.....
I don't disagree with you. I'm probably just showing my own personal bias, because a company attempted to scam me a while back, it was an American company, but I guess they had outsourced their call operators to India and that's who I spoke to when they called and pulled the scam.
They signed me up for 5 years of magazine subscriptions to all sorts of magazines, and never once did I say yes or agree to anything at all! To make a long story short, everything turned out ok in the end, because of action taken on my part and the situation was resolved after I threatened them with various legal measures. The funny part about the story is that they will never see a dime from me, and I will keep getting a whole shitload of magazines every single month for free. To be honest, it's more of a hassle than anything else, because I don't even want or need them. I end up throwing away 3-4 magazines right into the trash every single week. And I'll keep getting all these magazines delivered for the next 5 years, unless I move or something.
Remember the Stupid Prince. That was before Hugh Laurie was a household name... at least in the US. House MD will ending the series (and by series I mean the American usage) this year. I have to assume he will die, perhaps doing one last thing to stick to the man and prove he's right by taking his own life to save a patient.
Been catching up on some old Black Adder on YouTube. Just brilliant! But House is lost on me. its probably good but just never watched it. Not even a minute...
Been catching up on some old Black Adder on YouTube. Just brilliant! But House is lost on me. its probably good but just never watched it. Not even a minute...
Even though I'm American, I have spent considerable time in Europe, and that's where I first saw Black Adder many years ago. I like that show.
It's on Netflix Streaming by the way, every season, every episode.
Here in the UK a large number of our telephone companies, cable providers, banks and utility companies outsource a large number of their functions to India. It has been proven to be a complete turn-off for customers and some of the smarter companies are relocating their call centres/support back to the UK. The standard of service from Indian call centres is incredibly varied and thats once you have got over the language barrier. Not a good move by Apple methinks.
the most vertically integrated and horizontally spread company in history,
An interesting claim I believe to be false. Can you tell me how Apple is more vertically integrated than say Samsung?
I have a Samsung phone and they made and designed the components it is made from - the processor (Hummingbird), the memory, the AMOLED screen, the battery - designed and made the physical device itself and they even made the OS it runs on, Bada.
Now unless Apple have secretly been designing and manufacturing all their own components, that makes Samsung more vertically integrated than Apple by a wide margin.
IMO this is a very bad idea. All other arguments aside, outsourcing software development to some overseas company is always a bad idea unless you are outsourcing something so trivial it likely already exists in some form or another. End of story. We all know Apple is not trying to reproduce trivial software, and the quality of their software and API's is instrumental to the success of their hardware.
In all the years I've worked as a software engineer I've seen nothing but trouble outsourcing development projects. Contrary to what many people believe, this has little to do with where you outsource to, how much you pay, or what kind of education or background the people doing the work have. The problem is communication, and detaching responsibility for the quality of the code from the people implementing it. It always ends up with some local managers or super-engineers deciding what needs to be done and how, writing it up, and sending it overseas, where the engineers have little to no influence on how they do their job, what the architecture should look like, what features are prioritized and how, and so on.
In my current job we are trying to co-develop complex software with a team based in the Netherlands, and one based in California (incidentally, only about 20 miles from 1 infinite loop ;-), and every time we come to the same conclusion: it hardly works, and time and time again the only way to pull projects afloat, is to fly to CA and fix things with everyone in the same room. So much for 'outsourcing the work'.
I see decisions like this as a big no-no for a company like Apple, that doesn't instill a lot of confidence in the future. I wonder if this is something Apple would have done under Jobs, who appeared to hold software quality as one of the most important preconditions for success. Why Apple thinks they can improve that by outsourcing development really is beyond me
Apple attracts top shelf brainy squared creative types. They want to invent the new UI element, the best IDE on the planet, the next big thing in computing. They don't want to be programming the 50,000th sales database with an Oracle backend and web frontend. Or keeping the Exchange server up. There's lot of boring programming work in this world.
Comments
Yet more American jobs shipped overseas. Thanks for nothing, Apple.
Jobs overseas aren't jobs you'd be likely to see or apply for anyway, so what's the complaint?
I second your comment. A fairly large company that I use to work for outsourced software to India, and our software was accidentally published to the very "open" web. I have many stories, but this one seems to be related to the story. Apple is very secretive. This just seems counter intuitive to me.
I'm willing to see what Apple is able to do in this case. They are unparalleled in their maniacal attention to detail. Give it time.
As Jobs said to Obama: those jobs aren't coming back.
He also said he was heading for a one-term presidency... I'd settle for the second of the two predictions.
Sure, it was my annoyance, and a little bit too much Pastis that was speaking. I could guess your your ancestry from your username, and I automatically assumed that you were defending them, which many nationalistic Indians do.
You assume too much.
Don't.
Now, the same thing can be said of hiring people in india. Apple can supplement their American work force with people in India. That doesn't mean that Apple is replacing workers in the United States. Apple could be creating jobs in india that would have never been created in the United Sates to being with.
The pattern with nearly all companies is that positions are eliminated in the US when work goes to India, sometimes quite aggressively. That's the whole point usually. In fact the savings per worker is very the basis for the business case outsourcers try to sell.
While it is possible to make the case that manufacture in China is necessary for Apple to be competitive, there is simply no similarly plausible case that Apple needs software development in India to be competitive. Apple is now extremely competitive, thanks to its US-based design and software development.
Software, especially the kind of software Apple develops, is deeply connected with culture. Only a fool could imagine that Apple could have gotten to where it has by doing development in India, Asia generally, and, really, much of the planet outside Silicon Valley. This is not a reflection on the skills, talent, or intelligence of individual programmers, but of the nature of the job.
Working with outsourcing companies is even worse. They have a vested interest to do as little innovation as possible, as they systematically use contract terms to limit the scope of the work they must accomplish to the bare minimum, hence reducing their own costs to improve profitability, as any business will do. They will also use the most basic set of automated tests possible, as their goal is to reach 100% passing statistics, so their people are discouraged from adding tests.
For these and other reasons, really good Indian programmers try to get as far away from the likes of Wipro as they can, as soon as they are able. Apple would be wise to follow their example.
..... you sure aren't saying it by calling me an "internet dude", which is what we all are around here.
Of course I am. Nothing more, nothing less in this forum. The problem is blowhards like you who don't realize that basic fact.
Oh, and your derisive dismissal of Cook isn't even worthy of a semi-serious response.
... No, corporations are not people, ...
Corporations are people*, that they exist as something else is just a legal fiction.
* People, not a person
Of course I am. Nothing more, nothing less in this forum. The problem is blowhards like you who don't realize that basic fact.
Oh, and your derisive dismissal of Cook isn't even worthy of a semi-serious response.
So you both insult me and avoid coming up with any evidence to back your claim.
Doesn't sound like a very credible response, does it?
By the way, I am sure Cook is highly intelligent and capable in what he cares about. What I am saying is that he has shown no evidence he cares about software development. I stand by that.
You talk about facts, here is one: There isn't a single product made by Apple, either software or hardware, the development of which was led, initiated by, or even shepherded by Cook.
The influx of $400 Million to the Indian economy is only going to accelerate that growth which will then result in more Apple product buyers. I bet in 3-5 years their investment will have paid off and then some.
So you both insult me and avoid coming up with any evidence to back your claim.
Doesn't sound like a very credible response, does it?
By the way, I am sure Cook is highly intelligent and capable in what he cares about. What I am saying is that he has shown no evidence he cares about software development. I stand by that.
You talk about facts, here is one: There isn't a single product made by Apple, either software or hardware, the development of which was led, initiated by, or even shepherded by Cook.
You win the prize. I was looking for a foil to work off of to make the point that has been missing in more than one thread today.
You say there isn't a single product traceable to Tim Cook. I say there is a quite obvious one: Apple itself, the company, since he started running the operations ten-plus years ago.
The most complex supply-chain operation in the world, the most vertically integrated and horizontally spread company in history, built under his watch and not so much under Steve Jobs's, I would think. He knows what he is doing with this company.
For all we know, this deal with software companies in India is about establishing a presence in the world's second largest market. Just as an example of stuff we don't know, how many languages will Siri need to know on the Indian subcontinent? Do we really think that the largest software team in Cupertino, the Siri team, should start bringing in programmer/linguists from every language group around the world? Do we not think that the world's number one knowledge company is going to have to source ideas -- software -- from around the world?
Think Different . . . how about Think Global?
You win the prize. I was looking for a foil to work off of to make the point that has been missing in more than one thread today.
You say there isn't a single product traceable to Tim Cook. I say there is a quite obvious one: Apple itself, the company, since he started running the operations ten-plus years ago.
The most complex supply-chain operation in the world, the most vertically integrated and horizontally spread company in history, built under his watch and not so much under Steve Jobs's, I would think. He knows what he is doing with this company.
For all we know, this deal with software companies in India is about establishing a presence in the world's second largest market. Just as an example of stuff we don't know, how many languages will Siri need to know on the Indian subcontinent? Do we really think that the largest software team in Cupertino, the Siri team, should start bringing in programmer/linguists from every language group around the world? Do we not think that the world's number one knowledge company is going to have to source ideas -- software -- from around the world?
Think Different . . . how about Think Global?
I've read all these Comments and got a Sad Feeling... I can't argues with any points, because I don't know as much! But.... I doubt that this India Decision is something that Tim Cook just thought of, or was planning to do after Steve's Passing! It's more likely to be the Continuation of Steve's Long Term Vision....
Then I read this last paragraph
"For all we know, this deal with software companies in India is about establishing a presence in the world's second largest market. Just as an example of stuff we don't know, how many languages will Siri need to know on the Indian subcontinent? Do we really think that the largest software team in Cupertino, the Siri team, should start bringing in programmer/linguists from every language group around the world? Do we not think that the world's number one knowledge company is going to have to source ideas -- software -- from around the world?
Think Different . . . how about Think Global?"
And that cheered me up, because it made sense.... Gotta get the NATIVES doing the Native Language stuff for their own people!!! Besides The Good Will in that country, it's also a Practical Approach! It's Their Language, Their Turf... The Tools are still Made In USA, and the Indians (in this case) take care of the Last Mile!!!! Then they get to Support it!!!
I Suspect that Apple's Competitors, who will be trying to Copy Siri, they will be using Indians too for India, Chinese for China etc...
As long as the Mother Ship, Apple, is in a Firm Control, that's OK by me.... I don't think Apple are Simple Fools, obsessed about Profits ASAP!!! They already have that! Getting a foot in the door in India is HUGE!!! India is more Democratic than China!!! India creates a Nice Leverage for Apple vs. China!
Yes, sometimes I prefer to speak to American Customer Service person most of the time, but you gotta give Indians some credit too. They speak better English than we speak any of their language! To me that's another proof of SMART PEOPLE!!! And on many occasions those Indians tried harder to please, vs our own Americans who sometimes would be less accommodating!!!
Again, I don't think Apple is a bunch of fools... The Sky Is NOT Falling!
And please don't think I am some kind of Apple Blind Trust Fan Boy! Nope, as a matter of fact I've recently had been less than happy with my Apple Care.... But I'll bite my tongue for now.... The recent stories about abuses at Foxconn were no fun to read, but... I've had my issues with some of that journalism.... And I am satisfied with Apple's handling of that case far more than with the media's soundbites....
AAPL Shares are yet another testimony as to the Faith of Many Who Believe in Apple's Bright Future! It's not a crime, nor it's immoral to own any stock, including AAPL!!!! I've seen Regular People who own that stock - bus drivers, clerks... It's not just all wealthy folks with Play Money!!! They have Faith In Apple, and there is nothing wrong with that, and them being rewarded for that!!!
Again, I don't think Apple is a bunch of fools... The Sky Is NOT Falling!
India and China will be a huge part of Apple's Future!!! Eventually all of that will spread worldwide, I hope, and in a way it'll reinforce world piece! Why? Cause people will always crave the latest Apple products, and they'd want them to work! And the world is big enough for Apple and its competitors! Maybe those Competitors will eventually start stealing less from Apple and Innovate for REAL, which would keep Apple on its toes..., awake!!!!
Again, I don't think Apple is a bunch of fools... The Sky Is NOT Falling!
A lot of the recently insourced call centers don't speak the Queen's English with a perfect accent either. They have thick (often strongly Southern) accents that I can barely understand.
At least, many of the Indians make an effort to be understood.....
I don't disagree with you. I'm probably just showing my own personal bias, because a company attempted to scam me a while back, it was an American company, but I guess they had outsourced their call operators to India and that's who I spoke to when they called and pulled the scam.
They signed me up for 5 years of magazine subscriptions to all sorts of magazines, and never once did I say yes or agree to anything at all! To make a long story short, everything turned out ok in the end, because of action taken on my part and the situation was resolved after I threatened them with various legal measures. The funny part about the story is that they will never see a dime from me, and I will keep getting a whole shitload of magazines every single month for free. To be honest, it's more of a hassle than anything else, because I don't even want or need them. I end up throwing away 3-4 magazines right into the trash every single week. And I'll keep getting all these magazines delivered for the next 5 years, unless I move or something.
What a waste of paper.
Remember the Stupid Prince. That was before Hugh Laurie was a household name... at least in the US. House MD will ending the series (and by series I mean the American usage) this year. I have to assume he will die, perhaps doing one last thing to stick to the man and prove he's right by taking his own life to save a patient.
Been catching up on some old Black Adder on YouTube. Just brilliant!
Been catching up on some old Black Adder on YouTube. Just brilliant!
Even though I'm American, I have spent considerable time in Europe, and that's where I first saw Black Adder many years ago. I like that show.
It's on Netflix Streaming by the way, every season, every episode.
Even though I'm American, I have spent considerable time in Europe, and that's where I first saw Black Adder many years ago. I like that show.
It's on Netflix Streaming by the way, every season, every episode.
Really? Perfect late night viewing. Thanks for the heads up.
the most vertically integrated and horizontally spread company in history,
An interesting claim I believe to be false. Can you tell me how Apple is more vertically integrated than say Samsung?
I have a Samsung phone and they made and designed the components it is made from - the processor (Hummingbird), the memory, the AMOLED screen, the battery - designed and made the physical device itself and they even made the OS it runs on, Bada.
Now unless Apple have secretly been designing and manufacturing all their own components, that makes Samsung more vertically integrated than Apple by a wide margin.
In all the years I've worked as a software engineer I've seen nothing but trouble outsourcing development projects. Contrary to what many people believe, this has little to do with where you outsource to, how much you pay, or what kind of education or background the people doing the work have. The problem is communication, and detaching responsibility for the quality of the code from the people implementing it. It always ends up with some local managers or super-engineers deciding what needs to be done and how, writing it up, and sending it overseas, where the engineers have little to no influence on how they do their job, what the architecture should look like, what features are prioritized and how, and so on.
In my current job we are trying to co-develop complex software with a team based in the Netherlands, and one based in California (incidentally, only about 20 miles from 1 infinite loop ;-), and every time we come to the same conclusion: it hardly works, and time and time again the only way to pull projects afloat, is to fly to CA and fix things with everyone in the same room. So much for 'outsourcing the work'.
I see decisions like this as a big no-no for a company like Apple, that doesn't instill a lot of confidence in the future. I wonder if this is something Apple would have done under Jobs, who appeared to hold software quality as one of the most important preconditions for success. Why Apple thinks they can improve that by outsourcing development really is beyond me