I think it's more directly than indirectly. China workers have a place on Apple's precious homepage for over a month now. And they are reporting their finding publicly and transparently on a monthly basis. Apple is directly affecting change here, make no mistake about it. These are not sweatshops.
Foxconn FTE - 285 a month , me in San Francisco 7030 per month ratio is 24.7 to 1
Bowl of Noodles 25c in china is the same as $6.17 here
Now I'm a well paid FTE here at end of my career earning about twice the average
I wonder if the Worker in China pays 40% taxes though - I guess not?
oh I just found out the tax rate is 10% at that level
I take home about $4400 after state, and fed income tax so the Chinese worker appears better off than me on the surface, but my silly example is not a comprehesive anaysis, but it is intersting no? A better analysis would figure disposable income after rent , taxes, health care etc and I really cannot be bothered doing that
4400 in San Francisco is hardly enough to buy you anything. Take out the rent will reduce it by 30% at least
The US Congress has no business telling China how much they should or shouldn't pay their workers. It's a moral issue, not a political one, and it's certainly not one more excuse for the US to police the world. Do yourself a favour and quit reading the NYT and watching CNN. It'll clear your head out.
I actually agree with you. I don't really like the NYT or CNN. I don't think Congress has any business telling a country what wages they pay and I NEVER said that.
Our congress DOES have the power to imposes taxes on companies that do business in China or to undo trade agreements if we feel they that country is engaging in unfair, unsafe, or immoral trade and labor.
THAT is something I think our government should seriously consider. You can disagree, but I think that Chinese labor and economic policy is harming the world more than Iran's nuclear program is. But all world governments will continue to ignore this because most of them (including the US) depend on China to run their MASSIVE deficits.
This is ridiculous and deeply ignorant / hypocritical by the NPR/NYT types. They must not know who knits their sweaters.
More to the point, they blatantly want to disemploy/kill poor people so that more affluent people can be employed. It is actually an evil idea that we should not employ low wage, poor people globally, leading perhaps to their deaths. Not that the NYT cares.
it seems so pity, but this is the final one in each worker's bank. they don't need to pay tax, housing, meals, and medicals in some cases. to us, $300 is a pocket money, but to these chinese workers it means a lot.
This is ridiculous and deeply ignorant / hypocritical by the NPR/NYT types. They must now know who knits their sweaters.
More to the point, they blatantly want to disemploy/kill poor people so that more affluent people can be employed. It is actually an evil idea that we should not employ low wage, poor people globally, leading perhaps to their deaths. Not that the NYT cares.
Wait...what?
Wage rates for these people go up and you imply they intended harm? I am so confused...
I believe the belief isn't that we should not employ low wage people but that we should pay them fairly. Frankly, there are few countries left where companies can find cheaper labor then they have in China And China has been doing everything they can to keep their wages down because of that.
EVERY country that has an industrial revolution goes through the very phase China has tried to avoid: improve safety and pay people what they are worth.
OUR Congress won't do anything because they are the US not the Rulers of the World. Our Congress has zero power to do things in another country unless they want to declare themselves despots and take in a military force etc to enact whatever they want.
Well whaddya know. China is advancing and evolving the same way that every other developed country did...a hundred to two hundred years ago. They're just doing it faster. If they were to liberalize their economy more they'd probably go even faster.
Except all they do is raise prices for domestic customers of foreign products.
Bad move.
I am with you in most cases, but free trade only works when a free market is allowed to work.
When NAFTA hit, US companies moved labor to Mexico. Wages went up in Mexico in the 90's and when trade agreements with Asia started, labor moved again. China has been trying to claim a more open economy while doing what it can to keep wages down. Perhaps this trigger more demands for US companies and will open the flood gates that will force China to rethink its strategy.
As I said earlier, free markets in action would result in a far better outcome for everyone than tariffs or Congressional action.
Since Apple makes about $400 gross profit per iPhone...
Why not bring those jobs back to the USA?
Yes yes, I know - tech, manufacturing, etc.
But think about it...
We put jobs in China because corp profit margins were thin, so they needed cheaper labor and massive volume to eek a profit.
Well guess what... Apple has high profit margins, high volumes... so can they afford a little more in labor costs? Would adding $1 to every iPhone be worth having a guy in the USA build it?
The US Congress has no business telling China how much they should or shouldn't pay their workers. It's a moral issue, not a political one, and it's certainly not one more excuse for the US to police the world. Do yourself a favour and quit reading the NYT and watching CNN. It'll clear your head out.
I entirely take your point, but isn't it a shame that morals and politics aren't necessarily joined at the hip.
I am with you in most cases, but free trade only works when a free market is allowed to work.
First, not true. Second, this is circular reasoning. Free trade is part of the free market. If you restrict or manage trade, the market is no longer free (or as free).
Quote:
Originally Posted by rednival
When NAFTA hit, US companies moved labor to Mexico. Wages went up in Mexico in the 90's and when trade agreements with Asia started, labor moved again. China has been trying to claim a more open economy while doing what it can to keep wages down.
It should be noted that most if not all "free trade" agreements (e.g., NAFTA, et al) do not actually have anything to do with free trade. They are about managed trade and are usually designed to support, protect and reward well connected special interested in one way or another not to make trade more free in a most reasonably sense of what that word means.
NAFTA was 900 pages long! If it said much more than this:
Quote:
No Country shall lay any Imposts or Duties on Imports or Exports, except what may be absolutely necessary for executing its inspection Law.
It's a managed trade agreement. At 900 pages I'm guessing it's not really about free trade despite the pontifications of politicians and media pundits.
Wage rates for these people go up and you imply they intended harm? I am so confused...
I believe the belief isn't that we should not employ low wage people but that we should pay them fairly. Frankly, there are few countries left where companies can find cheaper labor then they have in China And China has been doing everything they can to keep their wages down because of that.
EVERY country that has an industrial revolution goes through the very phase China has tried to avoid: improve safety and pay people what they are worth.
Let me try to be conciliatory and say I think I can understand why people want to improve wages of poor people. They believe that by paying people more, it will help those people. To a very small extent I agree.
However, (in the same breath) we also say we should pay people in California $50k or whatever ot build iPhones, and let these Chinese people rot because they are paid so little. They are being "exploited" ... so let's not employ the Chinese at all, the argument can go.
In the final analysis, both arguments are identical I believe. Poor people should disappear and instead, affluent people should work. If you pay a Chinese factory position $20,000/yr, affluent, highly educated people will apply, and the current workers will not work there. They will be back in their village. And screw them anyway, say the living-wage people, oddly.
My point is just that railing against low-wage Asian manufacturing has no basis in economics or humanitarianism.
Since Apple makes about $400 gross profit per iPhone...
Why not bring those jobs back to the USA?
Yes yes, I know - tech, manufacturing, etc.
But think about it...
We put jobs in China because corp profit margins were thin, so they needed cheaper labor and massive volume to eek a profit.
Well guess what... Apple has high profit margins, high volumes... so can they afford a little more in labor costs? Would adding $1 to every iPhone be worth having a guy in the USA build it?
Just an idea...
This article is says highest paid Chinese workers at Foxconn will make about $350 a month. There is NO WAY Apple could add $1, manufacture in the US, and maintain current margins. Let's just assume the average US worker made $20,000 / year (They don't. They make almost twice that). That is approximately $1,650 a month.
It cost McDonald's far more in labor to make you a Big Mac then it does Apple to make you an iPad.
for trade mark law in china, it is the first come first server model while in US it is the one who has the service. now, from APad to Zpad, they are registered in china already even though no one might use any of them on any products.
i do think chinese way of trade mark registration is flawed because it creates unnecessary overhead to business, both local and foreign. apple vs proview case is good in a sense that china will have to re-examine its IP law to amend the gap who has been exploited by scalpers like proview. a friend who understood chinese IP law well mentioned that the reason that china adopted its current IP law format was to encourage foreign companies to come to china to register their brand name etc as quick as possible. unfortunately it has been taken well advantage of by those who know how to profit from this flawed IP law.
apple vs proview case also exposed another subtle flaw in chinese corporation law about subsidiary, specially about company who has various subsidiary in hong kong and taiwan. the crucial question in apple's case is whether proview's parent company is regarded as a valid parental company of proview by chinese law. it could be an independent company by the same owner from hong kong or taiwan. the same owner put the money in china to create proview china which might be a totally separated entity from that in hong kong or taiwan. one thing for apple to do is to find out whether proview china was registered as subsidiary of parent proview company. if standalone, apple has to pay for its rights; if it is a subsidiary, then the agreement between apple and proview parent company should be honored.
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna
OUR Congress won't do anything because they are the US not the Rulers of the World. Our Congress has zero power to do things in another country unless they want to declare themselves despots and take in a military force etc to enact whatever they want.
The Chinese government are the ones that would have to do anything and they aren't likely to because Foxconn hasn't been shown to violate any Chinese laws. Sucks that those laws might not be as awesome as US ones but they are the ones in play in China.
DId you even read my post? Did you somehow miss where I tore down his proposition? Oh, I'm sorry, 'stop with the xenophobic and ignorant propositions'. There's no difference.
Ignore the Zzz. He uses that name for a reason.
If these tactics can be used by politicians, and in a court of law, then they're perfectly acceptable here.
And we have moderators if they get too personal or out of line.
And, despite what he fancies, Zzz is not one of them.
Let me try to be conciliatory and say I think I can understand why people want to improve wages of poor people. They believe that by paying people more, it will help those people. To a very small extent I agree.
However, (in the same breath) we also say we should pay people in California $50k or whatever ot build iPhones, and let these Chinese people rot because they are paid so little.
In the final analysis, both arguments are identical I believe. People in a high wage environment should get our business and low wage environments should be shunned. "Fair trade coffee" is another case in point. They intentionally only buy coffee from high wage regions. Because... well I think it's certainly anti-poor worker.
I see your point. I don't agree with the people that want to yank all work back to the US. I believe in letting wage rates take their natural course, and if some work comes back to the US, so be it.
That fact remains that China hasn't allowed their wage rates to take their natural course. It takes public outcry for Foxconn workers to get a raise. When China controls its currency and keeps its wages low, it does harm to the Chinese people and harm to the other countries. I view it as economic terrorism. I am not saying we should attack them or threaten military action. My hope would be that IF there was pressure from US Companies or US Congress to curtail those unfair economic practices, China would stop them. Because if companies pull out of China, they will have a revolt on their hands. So if Chinese workers make more money through the natural progression of free and open enterprise, everyone wins in the end.
Comments
DId you even read my post? Did you somehow miss where I tore down his proposition?
Yes. You were doing fine.
But you finished up with "stop being so xenophobic and ignorant."
Only indirectly.
I think it's more directly than indirectly. China workers have a place on Apple's precious homepage for over a month now. And they are reporting their finding publicly and transparently on a monthly basis. Apple is directly affecting change here, make no mistake about it. These are not sweatshops.
Foxconn FTE - 285 a month , me in San Francisco 7030 per month ratio is 24.7 to 1
Bowl of Noodles 25c in china is the same as $6.17 here
Now I'm a well paid FTE here at end of my career earning about twice the average
I wonder if the Worker in China pays 40% taxes though - I guess not?
oh I just found out the tax rate is 10% at that level
I take home about $4400 after state, and fed income tax so the Chinese worker appears better off than me on the surface, but my silly example is not a comprehesive anaysis, but it is intersting no? A better analysis would figure disposable income after rent , taxes, health care etc and I really cannot be bothered doing that
4400 in San Francisco is hardly enough to buy you anything. Take out the rent will reduce it by 30% at least
seems to me like they are better off
It's relative though.
The US Congress has no business telling China how much they should or shouldn't pay their workers. It's a moral issue, not a political one, and it's certainly not one more excuse for the US to police the world. Do yourself a favour and quit reading the NYT and watching CNN. It'll clear your head out.
I actually agree with you. I don't really like the NYT or CNN. I don't think Congress has any business telling a country what wages they pay and I NEVER said that.
Our congress DOES have the power to imposes taxes on companies that do business in China or to undo trade agreements if we feel they that country is engaging in unfair, unsafe, or immoral trade and labor.
THAT is something I think our government should seriously consider. You can disagree, but I think that Chinese labor and economic policy is harming the world more than Iran's nuclear program is. But all world governments will continue to ignore this because most of them (including the US) depend on China to run their MASSIVE deficits.
More to the point, they blatantly want to disemploy/kill poor people so that more affluent people can be employed. It is actually an evil idea that we should not employ low wage, poor people globally, leading perhaps to their deaths. Not that the NYT cares.
1,800 yuan per month = 285.77 USD per month....
Ah yeah! I am rolling large now.
This is ridiculous and deeply ignorant / hypocritical by the NPR/NYT types. They must now know who knits their sweaters.
More to the point, they blatantly want to disemploy/kill poor people so that more affluent people can be employed. It is actually an evil idea that we should not employ low wage, poor people globally, leading perhaps to their deaths. Not that the NYT cares.
Wait...what?
Wage rates for these people go up and you imply they intended harm? I am so confused...
I believe the belief isn't that we should not employ low wage people but that we should pay them fairly. Frankly, there are few countries left where companies can find cheaper labor then they have in China And China has been doing everything they can to keep their wages down because of that.
EVERY country that has an industrial revolution goes through the very phase China has tried to avoid: improve safety and pay people what they are worth.
OUR Congress won't do anything because they are the US not the Rulers of the World. Our Congress has zero power to do things in another country unless they want to declare themselves despots and take in a military force etc to enact whatever they want.
Well...
In the past, tariffs were used.
Except all they do is raise prices for domestic customers of foreign products.
Bad move.
Except all they do is raise prices for domestic customers of foreign products.
Bad move.
I am with you in most cases, but free trade only works when a free market is allowed to work.
When NAFTA hit, US companies moved labor to Mexico. Wages went up in Mexico in the 90's and when trade agreements with Asia started, labor moved again. China has been trying to claim a more open economy while doing what it can to keep wages down. Perhaps this trigger more demands for US companies and will open the flood gates that will force China to rethink its strategy.
As I said earlier, free markets in action would result in a far better outcome for everyone than tariffs or Congressional action.
Why not bring those jobs back to the USA?
Yes yes, I know - tech, manufacturing, etc.
But think about it...
We put jobs in China because corp profit margins were thin, so they needed cheaper labor and massive volume to eek a profit.
Well guess what... Apple has high profit margins, high volumes... so can they afford a little more in labor costs? Would adding $1 to every iPhone be worth having a guy in the USA build it?
Just an idea...
The US Congress has no business telling China how much they should or shouldn't pay their workers. It's a moral issue, not a political one, and it's certainly not one more excuse for the US to police the world. Do yourself a favour and quit reading the NYT and watching CNN. It'll clear your head out.
I entirely take your point, but isn't it a shame that morals and politics aren't necessarily joined at the hip.
I am with you in most cases, but free trade only works when a free market is allowed to work.
First, not true. Second, this is circular reasoning. Free trade is part of the free market. If you restrict or manage trade, the market is no longer free (or as free).
When NAFTA hit, US companies moved labor to Mexico. Wages went up in Mexico in the 90's and when trade agreements with Asia started, labor moved again. China has been trying to claim a more open economy while doing what it can to keep wages down.
It should be noted that most if not all "free trade" agreements (e.g., NAFTA, et al) do not actually have anything to do with free trade. They are about managed trade and are usually designed to support, protect and reward well connected special interested in one way or another not to make trade more free in a most reasonably sense of what that word means.
NAFTA was 900 pages long! If it said much more than this:
No Country shall lay any Imposts or Duties on Imports or Exports, except what may be absolutely necessary for executing its inspection Law.
It's a managed trade agreement. At 900 pages I'm guessing it's not really about free trade despite the pontifications of politicians and media pundits.
Wait...what?
Wage rates for these people go up and you imply they intended harm? I am so confused...
I believe the belief isn't that we should not employ low wage people but that we should pay them fairly. Frankly, there are few countries left where companies can find cheaper labor then they have in China And China has been doing everything they can to keep their wages down because of that.
EVERY country that has an industrial revolution goes through the very phase China has tried to avoid: improve safety and pay people what they are worth.
Let me try to be conciliatory and say I think I can understand why people want to improve wages of poor people. They believe that by paying people more, it will help those people. To a very small extent I agree.
However, (in the same breath) we also say we should pay people in California $50k or whatever ot build iPhones, and let these Chinese people rot because they are paid so little. They are being "exploited" ... so let's not employ the Chinese at all, the argument can go.
In the final analysis, both arguments are identical I believe. Poor people should disappear and instead, affluent people should work. If you pay a Chinese factory position $20,000/yr, affluent, highly educated people will apply, and the current workers will not work there. They will be back in their village. And screw them anyway, say the living-wage people, oddly.
My point is just that railing against low-wage Asian manufacturing has no basis in economics or humanitarianism.
Since Apple makes about $400 gross profit per iPhone...
Why not bring those jobs back to the USA?
Yes yes, I know - tech, manufacturing, etc.
But think about it...
We put jobs in China because corp profit margins were thin, so they needed cheaper labor and massive volume to eek a profit.
Well guess what... Apple has high profit margins, high volumes... so can they afford a little more in labor costs? Would adding $1 to every iPhone be worth having a guy in the USA build it?
Just an idea...
This article is says highest paid Chinese workers at Foxconn will make about $350 a month. There is NO WAY Apple could add $1, manufacture in the US, and maintain current margins. Let's just assume the average US worker made $20,000 / year (They don't. They make almost twice that). That is approximately $1,650 a month.
It cost McDonald's far more in labor to make you a Big Mac then it does Apple to make you an iPad.
i do think chinese way of trade mark registration is flawed because it creates unnecessary overhead to business, both local and foreign. apple vs proview case is good in a sense that china will have to re-examine its IP law to amend the gap who has been exploited by scalpers like proview. a friend who understood chinese IP law well mentioned that the reason that china adopted its current IP law format was to encourage foreign companies to come to china to register their brand name etc as quick as possible. unfortunately it has been taken well advantage of by those who know how to profit from this flawed IP law.
apple vs proview case also exposed another subtle flaw in chinese corporation law about subsidiary, specially about company who has various subsidiary in hong kong and taiwan. the crucial question in apple's case is whether proview's parent company is regarded as a valid parental company of proview by chinese law. it could be an independent company by the same owner from hong kong or taiwan. the same owner put the money in china to create proview china which might be a totally separated entity from that in hong kong or taiwan. one thing for apple to do is to find out whether proview china was registered as subsidiary of parent proview company. if standalone, apple has to pay for its rights; if it is a subsidiary, then the agreement between apple and proview parent company should be honored.
OUR Congress won't do anything because they are the US not the Rulers of the World. Our Congress has zero power to do things in another country unless they want to declare themselves despots and take in a military force etc to enact whatever they want.
The Chinese government are the ones that would have to do anything and they aren't likely to because Foxconn hasn't been shown to violate any Chinese laws. Sucks that those laws might not be as awesome as US ones but they are the ones in play in China.
DId you even read my post? Did you somehow miss where I tore down his proposition? Oh, I'm sorry, 'stop with the xenophobic and ignorant propositions'. There's no difference.
Ignore the Zzz. He uses that name for a reason.
If these tactics can be used by politicians, and in a court of law, then they're perfectly acceptable here.
And we have moderators if they get too personal or out of line.
And, despite what he fancies, Zzz is not one of them.
So let rip.
Teach the trolls that actions have consequences.
Let me try to be conciliatory and say I think I can understand why people want to improve wages of poor people. They believe that by paying people more, it will help those people. To a very small extent I agree.
However, (in the same breath) we also say we should pay people in California $50k or whatever ot build iPhones, and let these Chinese people rot because they are paid so little.
In the final analysis, both arguments are identical I believe. People in a high wage environment should get our business and low wage environments should be shunned. "Fair trade coffee" is another case in point. They intentionally only buy coffee from high wage regions. Because... well I think it's certainly anti-poor worker.
I see your point. I don't agree with the people that want to yank all work back to the US. I believe in letting wage rates take their natural course, and if some work comes back to the US, so be it.
That fact remains that China hasn't allowed their wage rates to take their natural course. It takes public outcry for Foxconn workers to get a raise. When China controls its currency and keeps its wages low, it does harm to the Chinese people and harm to the other countries. I view it as economic terrorism. I am not saying we should attack them or threaten military action. My hope would be that IF there was pressure from US Companies or US Congress to curtail those unfair economic practices, China would stop them. Because if companies pull out of China, they will have a revolt on their hands. So if Chinese workers make more money through the natural progression of free and open enterprise, everyone wins in the end.