Proview ready to negotiate on eve of Shanghai court hearing

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  • Reply 61 of 80
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by anakin1992 View Post


    from the following link, it looks like that proview shenzhen is part of bigger proview. if proview shenzhen tricked apple into one country 2 systems crap, apple definitely can sue them or its creditors for extortion.






    Yes. Proview Schenzen, the current owner of the Chinese trademark, is a subsidiary of a Hong Kong Company.



    Proview Taiwan was the seller. Proview Taiwan certainly seems to be in breach of its warranties and representations. Proview Taiwan is on the hook for their misrepresentations. From everything I have heard, however, they may be judgement proof.



    The creditors can be sued for their own actions. However, they cannot be liable if their borrower is a bad guy.



    Likewise, Proview Schenzen is not liable for fraud perpetrated by an affiliate.
  • Reply 62 of 80
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hzc View Post




    Doesn't Apple have documents regarding the purchase of the iPad name that the Chinese courts can look at and give a definitive answer as to whether Apple does indeed own the rights to the name 'iPad' in China or not? China states that Taiwan belongs to China so politics aside, either Proview Taiwan had the right to sell the name in the mainland or not. Yeah, it's never that easy, right?



    I think that what may have seemed a clear-cut, legal purchase when everyone was happy may not be so clear-cut when microscopically examined from a legal standpoint retrospectively.



    Many things in life work this way. As a loose analogy, you can be late to work often if the boss overlooks it because of your otherwise stellar performance. But if a new boss is hired and begins looking carefully through your timesheets, you of course are technically are in violation of policy and could get in trouble retrospectively IF the new boss needs a reason to dislike/fire you.



    Most people would of course assume that "legal" matters like the buying and selling of a trademark, would be much more black and white. I work in medicine, and find that people who are not in the field also often falsely assume that medical treatments, opinions, or answers are either right or wrong or correct or incorrect. Often, that's just not the case.
  • Reply 63 of 80
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by parksgm View Post


    Most people would of course assume that "legal" matters like the buying and selling of a trademark, would be much more black and white.



    Usually, it is, because the buyer deals with the owner.



    Here, the buyer dealt with a company that did not own the trademark in China.



    Why this happened is likely important. Apple is screaming fraud, which may be true.



    But in general, when there is a public registry of ownership (such as the Registry of Deed for real estate), the buyer is expected to check things out, and the registered owner need not fear that some third party can sell his property.



    Why Apple took the word of Proview Taiwan and did not heed the registry is not currently known.
  • Reply 64 of 80
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dannysiu View Post


    It is exeedingly difficult for apple to prove that the entity who sold the trademark led Apple believe it has the authority. Even if Apple wasn't actually aware of this, court may hold that apple shall be responsible for its negligence.



    If trademark ownership is so easy to determine, why would you assume that the legal team of a multi billion dollar corporation would make such a glaringly simple mistake? Of course, it is _possible_, but I think extremely unlikely.



    Quote:

    Since Proview is on the brink of bankruptcy. Apple's claim against Proview would be as useless as any ordinary creditor. Yes, Proview may owe Apple a trademark, but it also owes other creditors millions of dollars. When the trademark is Proview's only asset, there is no legal basis to liquidate the company by satisfying only one creditor, Apple. If the creditors and Apple can't reach an agreement, the trademark will have to be sold through public auction and then every creditor and apple get a slice. Alternatevely, apple has to offer to other creditors big sums of money in exchange for the trademark.



    That doesn't make sense. If Apple wins the case or settles, Proview doesn't "owe" Apple a trademark - judgement in Apple's favor would mean that Apple has owned the trademark all along. Proview's creditors would have no lein at all in such a scenario.
  • Reply 65 of 80
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by parksgm View Post


    If trademark ownership is so easy to determine, why would you assume that the legal team of a multi billion dollar corporation would make such a glaringly simple mistake? Of course, it is _possible_, but I think extremely unlikely.




    My guess is that Apple's legal team was not involved.



    Apple used a third-party shill to buy the mark. My guess is that Apple had no direct contact, and that the third party hired its own lawyers. My guess is that nobody involved had any idea that Apple was behind the curtain. If they knew, they could slip up and reveal the secret. If they didn't know, that would not be a risk.



    My guess is that this was treated by all concerned as a small transaction between nothing companies. Also keep in mind that somebody on the buyer's end should have checked the registry to be sure that the Chinese mark was properly transferred. The media claims that the omission was not discovered until years later, indicating that the standard post-transaction due diligence was also omitted.



    That is the only explanation I can think of as to why this was handled so sloppily.
  • Reply 66 of 80
    joshajosha Posts: 901member
    Apple is torn on this; they can easily afford to buy Proview out, but to give in would lead to more such cons.

    So Apple has to defend, with an attack on these pirates.



    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/02...ew_defamation/

    Proview wins new Chinese IPAD ruling as Apple threatens to sue

    Tech titan wants monitor minnow to zip it

    By Phil Muncaster

    Posted in Small Biz, 21st February 2012 10:02 GMT



    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/02...udge_decision/

    Exploitative' Proview slammed by trademark judge ... in 2010

    Court said monitor biz deliberately tried to injure Apple

    By Phil Muncaster

    Posted in Law, 17th February 2012 12:26 GMT
  • Reply 67 of 80
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by parksgm View Post


    If trademark ownership is so easy to determine, why would you assume that the legal team of a multi billion dollar corporation would make such a glaringly simple mistake? Of course, it is _possible_, but I think extremely unlikely.







    That doesn't make sense. If Apple wins the case or settles, Proview doesn't "owe" Apple a trademark - judgement in Apple's favor would mean that Apple has owned the trademark all along. Proview's creditors would have no lein at all in such a scenario.



    That's not true. Even if the court held that the contract is binding. Apple doesn't own the trademark all along. A binding contract only means you have a contractural right to claim the trademark. Before the actual transfer happen (have your name printed on the trademark certificate), the owner is still Proview Shenzhen. It's like u entered in to an agreement with a property developer to buy an aparement. If the developer default and went into bankruptcy before he transfers u the title of the property, you may not be able to actually get your apartment and all you can do is to split the remaining assets and share a slice like every other buyer(creditor)
  • Reply 68 of 80
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by I am a Zither Zather Zuzz View Post


    Yes. Proview Schenzen, the current owner of the Chinese trademark, is a subsidiary of a Hong Kong Company.



    Proview Taiwan was the seller. Proview Taiwan certainly seems to be in breach of its warranties and representations. Proview Taiwan is on the hook for their misrepresentations. From everything I have heard, however, they may be judgement proof.



    The creditors can be sued for their own actions. However, they cannot be liable if their borrower is a bad guy.



    Likewise, Proview Schenzen is not liable for fraud perpetrated by an affiliate.



    in one of the emails between proview shenzhen and london IP company, huy yuan and ray mai were mentioned that they were located in shenzhen, but trade mark belongs to proview taiwan.



    if proview shenzhen now claimed that trade mark is proview shenzhen property, did not they commit a perjury? at least they lied about it when they talked to that apple's shill company.



    i understand that maybe proview shenzhen is separated entity from that in hongkong or taiwan, though financially they might be one. but their lawyer, ray mai, has been involved in talks with apple's shill company and huy yuan specifically referred proview taiwan for proper transferring trade mark. i think proview shenzhen themselves did not know that IPAD trade mark is their property until they knew the buyer is apple. so i doubt proview shenzhen even has its own lawyer in china until the case is blowed up.



    but one thing is clear, proview taiwan is the owner of proview shenzhen. though the law might be different in different place, proview cheated apple's shill company by misquoting its shenzhen's branch china's property as their own. therefore, apple can sue them.
  • Reply 69 of 80
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by anakin1992 View Post


    but one thing is clear, proview taiwan is the owner of proview shenzhen. though the law might be different in different place, proview cheated apple's shill company by misquoting its shenzhen's branch china's property as their own. therefore, apple can sue them.



    No, that is incorrect. Proview Taiwan is not the owner of Proview Shenzhen. Instead, as I've seen it described, both are subsidiaries of Proview Holdings in Hong Kong.



    Now do you understand the problem Apple is having?
  • Reply 70 of 80
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by I am a Zither Zather Zuzz View Post


    No. The contract of sale was entered into with the Taiwan subsidiary, who never owned the rights in China.



    The documents are AGAINST Apple.



    They have extraneous documents from which one could infer fraud or mistake. The extraneous documents may be enough to get Apple an equitable decision.



    But the main document, the one that transfers ownership, is NOT in Apple's favor. It was never signed by the owner of the Chinese trademark.



    I dont know what documents you saw but the ones that I read were all dealing with Proview Shenzhen representative, and apple was directed by Proview Shenzhen to purchase the iPad trademark in Taiwan at there subsidiary.



    To quote one of those documents " Yes, Mr. Ray Mai and I are located in Shenzhen But the trademark is not belong to Shenzhen company but Taiwan company. That the reason why we choose the meeting location in Taiwan."



    The documents include a schedual A showing the countries that the trademarks are being transfered and sold in from the shenzhen representatives includes "China" proper as well.

    Apple was dealing with the shenzhen office of proview and was directed to meet at the Proview Taiwan office to purchase and conclude the deal with representatives of the shenzhen office.



    The documents are clearly in Apples favor. This debacle clearly wreaks of disshonesty on the owner of proviews part and is nothing but extortion.



    Lol it even goes on to say that the agreement is exclusively governed by the laws of Hong Kong and the Hong Kong courts have exclusive jurisdiction over the agreement for all the countries listed in schedual A which include "China" Proper.



    The Hong Kong courts have allready ruled that apple has the rites to the trademark.

    As I said the owner of proview is a criminal and should be treated as such.
  • Reply 71 of 80
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AjitMD View Post


    "Every war is won or lost even before it is fought" - Sun Tsu.



    The court has probably made the decision and Proview want to settle to get something out of all this. If Apple has a strong case, they should do the "lobbying" in China and then play hardball. Go after the owner of possible. Got to set an example.



    "Lobbying" in China involves the greasing of many palms... even more so than in Washington D.C., if you can believe that!



    In Addition, "face" is very important in China, so Apple can allow Proview to save face with pocket change, and everyone goes there way. Apple bought worldwide rights for about $15,000, even doubling that is lunch money.
  • Reply 72 of 80
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by anakin1992 View Post


    but one thing is clear, proview taiwan is the owner of proview shenzhen. though the law might be different in different place, proview cheated apple's shill company by misquoting its shenzhen's branch china's property as their own. therefore, apple can sue them.



    Suing a nearly bankrupt company for money has all the satisfaction potential as kissing your sister.
  • Reply 73 of 80
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Mechanic View Post


    I dont know what documents you saw but the ones that I read were all dealing with Proview Shenzhen representative, and apple was directed by Proview Shenzhen to purchase the iPad trademark in Taiwan at there subsidiary.



    To quote one of those documents " Yes, Mr. Ray Mai and I are located in Shenzhen But the trademark is not belong to Shenzhen company but Taiwan company. That the reason why we choose the meeting location in Taiwan."



    The documents include a schedual A showing the countries that the trademarks are being transfered and sold in from the shenzhen representatives includes "China" proper as well.

    Apple was dealing with the shenzhen office of proview and was directed to meet at the Proview Taiwan office to purchase and conclude the deal with representatives of the shenzhen office.



    The documents are clearly in Apples favor. This debacle clearly wreaks of disshonesty on the owner of proviews part and is nothing but extortion.



    Lol it even goes on to say that the agreement is exclusively governed by the laws of Hong Kong and the Hong Kong courts have exclusive jurisdiction over the agreement for all the countries listed in schedual A which include "China" Proper.



    The Hong Kong courts have allready ruled that apple has the rites to the trademark.

    As I said the owner of proview is a criminal and should be treated as such.







    The emails you refer to are indeed in Apple's favor.



    The legal documents however, are as I described them to be. The legal documents are what i was referring to, not the extraneous stuff.



    And yes, I agree with you that Proview was sleazy about the whole thing.
  • Reply 74 of 80
    h2ph2p Posts: 268member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


    Translation:

    "We know we're going to get our butts kicked and probably face contempt of court charges in Hong Kong, so let's see if Apple will throw us a bone to allow us to save face".



    As my friend living in Asia for 8 years has said, saving face is paramount. So, I definitely believe Apple should work to settle the suit. It's one way to win big points with the locals.



    And notice how Proview worded their willingness to negotiate with "peaceful intentions." That's my understanding on how it's done there.



    My brother-in-law (who owns a small publishing company) lost a few of his products and the name of his company to a Chinese firm that got upset because he didn't want to sell the business to them! He's working it out but still, the Chinese culture and the Chinese legal system is very different, obviously. It doesn't seem fair to me -- but only when I "think like a Westerner" (inside of English Common Law/Roman Law)...



    Given this - I think that Apple should do something moderate to settle the suit.
  • Reply 75 of 80
    freerangefreerange Posts: 1,589member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Fairthrope View Post


    Let's just say they play underdog role better than Apple Insider gave them credit for, and Chinese netizens actually buy Proview's story.



    No they don't. They know better.
  • Reply 76 of 80
    1st1st Posts: 393member
    [QUOTE=H2P;2052

    And notice how Proview worded their willingness to negotiate with "peaceful intentions." That's my understanding on how it's done there.

    .[/QUOTE]



    hmmm, "peaceful" =? alternative is=? If Apple won the game of chicken, I would like to call the ipad, l-pad (legal pad, le-pad in french, ;-). Apple can give me $514 (1 share) for the name ;-).
  • Reply 77 of 80
    Proview is the new Kodak, when you are on your way down, drag everyone else with you. It is the new world order in tech business!
  • Reply 78 of 80
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by I am a Zither Zather Zuzz View Post


    Proview is not a going concern. Their creditors want to maximize value, and can do so without incurring any wrath.



    Ha! Without incurring any wrath? I don't for a minute believe Apple would do anything so rash as pick up and move all production out of China. But Google did withdraw from China. If Apple took a hike (if it were even feasible), it seems like the fallout would be enormous. Frankly, the Apple shareholder lawsuits would be filed immediately and the arm twisting by politicians and trade officials would be extreme. It is already a very big deal that some production is on its way to Brazil.



    But in the end this is just petty banditry. The stakes are too high given the growth rate of iPad adoption. It is far too important for Apple to meet the demand they have created rather than leave an opportunity to their imitators.



    On the other hand I do hope Apple exhausts all their legal options giving Chinese officials a chance to act better than the corrupt image they have been gaining. The results of this farce can be used to determine how aggressively Apple pursues the transfer of manufacturing to Brazil and elsewhere.
  • Reply 79 of 80
    Hell Apple should probably just buy them, kill two birds with one stone. All this lawsuit stuff goes away and you get all of there intellectual property to boot. I doubt they have much to offer as a company at this point so you could probably get them for a dime.
  • Reply 80 of 80
    banchobancho Posts: 1,517member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by RepairZoom View Post


    Hell Apple should probably just buy them, kill two birds with one stone. All this lawsuit stuff goes away and you get all of there intellectual property to boot. I doubt they have much to offer as a company at this point so you could probably get them for a dime.



    What IP do you assume they have? The only thing for certain is they possess a ton of debt.
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