ACCC is misguided in targeting Apple, it should go for Telstra and Optus for misleading advertising of a network where even the world's most popular 4G device does not work with their infrastructure.
No, it's not a completely different and arbitrary ball of wax. Look at what you said a sentence ago...
Now put two and two together.
Do you see how it can be a cause for confusion? Many Australian consumers who see 4G plastered all over the new iPad treat that as a tick for compatibility with Telstra's LTE network.
You've proved my point. Again, PAL is very specific acronym. It can't be interpreted to mean anything else in regards to TVs. 4G can mean many things. My example clearly showed that an arbitrary definition like SD or HD can be moved by governments, telcos, consumers, etc.
If a colloquial definition of 4G refers to LTE, but not LTE Advance, HSPA+, or HC-HSDPA should Apple have to redo the wording and packaging for every... single... regional... usage to make sure it doesn't cross any toes? I think that's silly. By all rational definition of what 4G is and following the ITU-R's definition the iPad can connect to a 4G network.
edit: Or, lets look at that analogy from a different angle. If I'm in the US and see someone advertising a PAL TV on Craig's List, and I buy it. Now they clearly said it was a PAL TV and said in a footer that it would work in the US. Does that mean I should expect it to work in the US? Can I sue them for selling a me a TV that won't work in the US? That is like Apple saying that LTE will not work in Australia.
Australia has very strict legislation governing what you can and cannot do in the name of advertising. It's called the Trade Practices Act and operates at the Federal level. This isn't just a bunch of grumpy customers; on the face of it Apple could well be in breach of Commonwealth legislation.
The ads Apple have been running here have clearly stated its 4G credentials which the average consumer (not just the "ignorant, uneducated" variety that you rather condescendingly describe) could reasonably expect to be of some use on the 4G network we do, in fact, have here. Instead, it of no use whatsoever at this time. Customers should be able to purchase a product or service and expect it to be able to perform as advertised. The 4G connectivity simply won't do that here so Apple, sadly, is likely to be in breach and, if so, will need to take remedial action.
To use an analogy, how would a US consumer feel about being sold a PAL television set only to be told "it works fine in Australia"?
You've proved my point. Again, PAL is very specific acronym. It can't be interpreted to mean anything else in regards to TVs. 4G can mean many things. My example clearly showed that an arbitrary definition like SD or HD can be moved by governments, telcos, consumers, etc.
If a colloquial definition of 4G refers to LTE, but not LTE Advance, HSPA+, or HC-HSDPA should Apple have to redo the wording and packaging for every... single... regional... usage to make sure it doesn't cross any toes? I think that's silly. By all rational definition of what 4G is and following the ITU-R's definition the iPad can connect to a 4G network..
I think you're missing the point. While you're correct from an ITU standpoint, 4G can be a variety of things, Australia is apparently very specific. They classify 4G as meaning LTE only and they are free to add such clarification within their borders. YOU may think it's silly to redo packaging or add extra clarification, but that's the cost of doing international business if you want to steer clear of any local legal wrangling, unintentional or otherwise.
Now we can all sleep better at night, knowing that this precarious situation has been resolved.
Apple's move is brilliant! They're calling the bluff of anybody who whines or complains!
If somebody doesn't like the product which they purchased for whatever reason, or if somebody claims to have been misled by advertising, then just return it, problem solved. Go buy something else from somebody else, and go whine to them instead about something else.
Does the fragmented country that you live in have fucked up 4G frequencies, and you bought an iPad 4G specifically for that use? No problem, let's just chalk this down to a simple misunderstanding. Return it and the problem is solved. I'm sure that there are many other wonderful products on the market which will satisfy your needs 100%.
Is your iPad too thick? Yeah, I know what you mean, less than 1 millimeter makes a huge difference and I totally sympathize with you. Go return your iPad!
Is your iPad too warm? Yeah, I know what you mean, you are so right, and this issue is definitely not much ado about nothing. Go and return your iPad as quickly as you can before it fucking melts. Hurry up now, you incredibly intelligent person!
Is your iPad too heavy? Yeah, I know what you mean. If I were you, I'd return it as quickly as possible before you get a hernia.
edit: Or, lets look at that analogy from a different angle. If I'm in the US and see someone advertising a PAL TV on Craig's List, and I buy it. Now they clearly said it was a PAL TV and said in a footer that it would work in the US. Does that mean I should expect it to work in the US? Can I sue them for selling a me a TV that won't work in the US? That is like Apple saying that LTE will not work in Australia.
Well, you're presumably in the US, so you tell me. If this was in Australia, then yes, you probably could make a case out of that, and if you see chainsaw's post earlier about Australia's strict legislation regarding advertising, you'll understand why. You can't expect an average consumer to understand the differences between PAL and NTSC, but if the ad mentions it works in the country it was sold in, one should expect it to do so to the fullest extent. Australian law doesn't just fixate on what's in black and white, but also takes into account consumer's statutory rights, either written or implied.
You've pointed out how loose the definition of 4G is globally, so Apple should really state specifically in all its marketing, packaging and information sheets that it's Wi-Fi + LTE 700/2100, not Wi-Fi + 4G, and make clear to Australian consumers that it will not work with Telstra's LTE network. Each country has its laws, and if Apple wants to do international business, it should aim to not breach the legislation it's bound by.
Yet ignores the facts. Apple has not misled anyone. All their advertising has said that people should check with their local carrier for the availability of 4G.
Wow, I wonder what Australia would do to AT&T for effectively denying their customers who signed up for unlimited data plans the original terms of their contract through use of punitive "reduced data speeds"
Wow, I wonder what Australia would do to AT&T for effectively denying their customers who signed up for unlimited data plans the original terms of their contract through use of punitive "reduced data speeds"
As someone who has witnessed all of AT&T's antics over the years, I can tell you that if they were an Australian carrier, they would have felt the ACCC's wrath time and time again.
There's a big ass sticker on the BOX that clearly states that the iPad does not operate at 4G speeds in Australia. So where the fuck is the problem again?
You've pointed out how loose the definition of 4G is globally, so Apple should really state specifically in all its marketing, packaging and information sheets that it's Wi-Fi + LTE 700/1800, not Wi-Fi + 4G, and make clear to Australian consumers that it will not work with Telstra's LTE network. Each country has its laws, and if Apple wants to do international business, it should aim to not breach the legislation it's bound by.
So how can they advertise that it has WiFi when it's possible the customer won't be able to connect to WiFi? What if they only have 802.11g does that make their claims that it contains the ability to connect to 802.11n false? If not then why do Apple's claims that it can connect to 4G LTE in the US and Canada false?
There's a big ass sticker on the BOX that clearly states that the iPad does not operate at 4G speeds in Australia. So where the fuck is the problem again?
Apple did not put this sticker on there. One Telstra store did, and only on its launch day stock.
So how can they advertise that it has WiFi when it's possible the customer won't be able to connect to WiFi? What if they only have 802.11g does that make their claims that it contains the ability to connect to 802.11n false?
No, you're comparing apples and oranges. 802.11n networks are ubiquitous, and while some 802.11g-only networks exist, it does not mean that a consumer can't connect to an 802.11n network elsewhere in the country.
The issue of 4G/LTE here is at a national level. There aren't some people who can and some people who can't connect to Telstra's LTE network with the iPad; everyone has been denied this ability. And Apple should have made this clear rather than plaster 4G all over their product and market it as such.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
If not then why do Apple's claims that it can connect to 4G LTE in the US and Canada false?
I'm not saying that it's false. They are very much entitled to claim that it can connect to LTE networks in the US and Canada, because, well, it's fact.
There is a 4G LTE network in Australia and it's operated by Telstra. However, it does not operate on the same band as the ones in the US and Canada.
That is my understanding of the current situation, but I am amazed that Telstra didn't voluntarily, or weren't forced to, adopt one of the bands supported by Apple's iPad, or at least sit down with Apple and other mobile device manufacturers and decide what bands to use so that ALL smartphone or tablet devices can connect to a 4G LTE network. What were they thinking??? Obviously not about the customer!!
That is my understanding of the current situation, but I am amazed that Telstra didn't voluntarily, or weren't forced to, adopt one of the bands supported by Apple's iPad, or at least sit down with Apple and other mobile device manufacturers and decide what bands to use so that ALL smartphone or tablet devices can connect to a 4G LTE network. What were they thinking??? Obviously not about the customer!!
You do realise that plans for the infrastructure were laid out well before many mobile LTE devices were in existence?
Telstra doesn't use 700MHz for LTE because this is used for analog TV in Australia, so no carrier is able to adopt it as yet. And there is nothing out of the ordinary in the 1800MHz band they're using for LTE - look around Europe and the Asia Pacific and you'll see it's widely adopted.
Seriously, this is like the "does it or does it not support 3G" issue all over again. I give Apple two years tops before they release a quad- or penta-band LTE iPad that'll make the majority happy.
You just took what I said out of context. I said "elsewhere in the country", not "elsewhere" (in general). There's a big difference when you're operating just within the confines of one country and its laws.
Australia has very strict legislation governing what you can and cannot do in the name of advertising. It's called the Trade Practices Act and operates at the Federal level. This isn't just a bunch of grumpy customers; on the face of it Apple could well be in breach of Commonwealth legislation.
The ads Apple have been running here have clearly stated its 4G credentials which the average consumer (not just the "ignorant, uneducated" variety that you rather condescendingly describe) could reasonably expect to be of some use on the 4G network we do, in fact, have here. Instead, it of no use whatsoever at this time. Customers should be able to purchase a product or service and expect it to be able to perform as advertised. The 4G connectivity simply won't do that here so Apple, sadly, is likely to be in breach and, if so, will need to take remedial action.
To use an analogy, how would a US consumer feel about being sold a PAL television set only to be told "it works fine in Australia"?
Listen PAL, you're actually totally right. If Apple is running TV ads in Australia that claim 4G, then they should definitely stop.
Comments
ACCC is misguided in targeting Apple, it should go for Telstra and Optus for misleading advertising of a network where even the world's most popular 4G device does not work with their infrastructure.
What? Are you being sarcastic?
No, it's not a completely different and arbitrary ball of wax. Look at what you said a sentence ago...
Now put two and two together.
Do you see how it can be a cause for confusion? Many Australian consumers who see 4G plastered all over the new iPad treat that as a tick for compatibility with Telstra's LTE network.
You've proved my point. Again, PAL is very specific acronym. It can't be interpreted to mean anything else in regards to TVs. 4G can mean many things. My example clearly showed that an arbitrary definition like SD or HD can be moved by governments, telcos, consumers, etc.
If a colloquial definition of 4G refers to LTE, but not LTE Advance, HSPA+, or HC-HSDPA should Apple have to redo the wording and packaging for every... single... regional... usage to make sure it doesn't cross any toes? I think that's silly. By all rational definition of what 4G is and following the ITU-R's definition the iPad can connect to a 4G network.
edit: Or, lets look at that analogy from a different angle. If I'm in the US and see someone advertising a PAL TV on Craig's List, and I buy it. Now they clearly said it was a PAL TV and said in a footer that it would work in the US. Does that mean I should expect it to work in the US? Can I sue them for selling a me a TV that won't work in the US? That is like Apple saying that LTE will not work in Australia.
Australia has very strict legislation governing what you can and cannot do in the name of advertising. It's called the Trade Practices Act and operates at the Federal level. This isn't just a bunch of grumpy customers; on the face of it Apple could well be in breach of Commonwealth legislation.
The ads Apple have been running here have clearly stated its 4G credentials which the average consumer (not just the "ignorant, uneducated" variety that you rather condescendingly describe) could reasonably expect to be of some use on the 4G network we do, in fact, have here. Instead, it of no use whatsoever at this time. Customers should be able to purchase a product or service and expect it to be able to perform as advertised. The 4G connectivity simply won't do that here so Apple, sadly, is likely to be in breach and, if so, will need to take remedial action.
To use an analogy, how would a US consumer feel about being sold a PAL television set only to be told "it works fine in Australia"?
very well put.
You've proved my point. Again, PAL is very specific acronym. It can't be interpreted to mean anything else in regards to TVs. 4G can mean many things. My example clearly showed that an arbitrary definition like SD or HD can be moved by governments, telcos, consumers, etc.
If a colloquial definition of 4G refers to LTE, but not LTE Advance, HSPA+, or HC-HSDPA should Apple have to redo the wording and packaging for every... single... regional... usage to make sure it doesn't cross any toes? I think that's silly. By all rational definition of what 4G is and following the ITU-R's definition the iPad can connect to a 4G network..
I think you're missing the point. While you're correct from an ITU standpoint, 4G can be a variety of things, Australia is apparently very specific. They classify 4G as meaning LTE only and they are free to add such clarification within their borders. YOU may think it's silly to redo packaging or add extra clarification, but that's the cost of doing international business if you want to steer clear of any local legal wrangling, unintentional or otherwise.
Apple's move is brilliant! They're calling the bluff of anybody who whines or complains!
If somebody doesn't like the product which they purchased for whatever reason, or if somebody claims to have been misled by advertising, then just return it, problem solved. Go buy something else from somebody else, and go whine to them instead about something else.
Does the fragmented country that you live in have fucked up 4G frequencies, and you bought an iPad 4G specifically for that use? No problem, let's just chalk this down to a simple misunderstanding. Return it and the problem is solved. I'm sure that there are many other wonderful products on the market which will satisfy your needs 100%.
Is your iPad too thick? Yeah, I know what you mean, less than 1 millimeter makes a huge difference and I totally sympathize with you. Go return your iPad!
Is your iPad too warm? Yeah, I know what you mean, you are so right, and this issue is definitely not much ado about nothing. Go and return your iPad as quickly as you can before it fucking melts. Hurry up now, you incredibly intelligent person!
Is your iPad too heavy? Yeah, I know what you mean. If I were you, I'd return it as quickly as possible before you get a hernia.
edit: Or, lets look at that analogy from a different angle. If I'm in the US and see someone advertising a PAL TV on Craig's List, and I buy it. Now they clearly said it was a PAL TV and said in a footer that it would work in the US. Does that mean I should expect it to work in the US? Can I sue them for selling a me a TV that won't work in the US? That is like Apple saying that LTE will not work in Australia.
Well, you're presumably in the US, so you tell me. If this was in Australia, then yes, you probably could make a case out of that, and if you see chainsaw's post earlier about Australia's strict legislation regarding advertising, you'll understand why. You can't expect an average consumer to understand the differences between PAL and NTSC, but if the ad mentions it works in the country it was sold in, one should expect it to do so to the fullest extent. Australian law doesn't just fixate on what's in black and white, but also takes into account consumer's statutory rights, either written or implied.
You've pointed out how loose the definition of 4G is globally, so Apple should really state specifically in all its marketing, packaging and information sheets that it's Wi-Fi + LTE 700/2100, not Wi-Fi + 4G, and make clear to Australian consumers that it will not work with Telstra's LTE network. Each country has its laws, and if Apple wants to do international business, it should aim to not breach the legislation it's bound by.
very well put.
Yet ignores the facts. Apple has not misled anyone. All their advertising has said that people should check with their local carrier for the availability of 4G.
Wow, I wonder what Australia would do to AT&T for effectively denying their customers who signed up for unlimited data plans the original terms of their contract through use of punitive "reduced data speeds"
As someone who has witnessed all of AT&T's antics over the years, I can tell you that if they were an Australian carrier, they would have felt the ACCC's wrath time and time again.
You've pointed out how loose the definition of 4G is globally, so Apple should really state specifically in all its marketing, packaging and information sheets that it's Wi-Fi + LTE 700/1800, not Wi-Fi + 4G, and make clear to Australian consumers that it will not work with Telstra's LTE network. Each country has its laws, and if Apple wants to do international business, it should aim to not breach the legislation it's bound by.
So how can they advertise that it has WiFi when it's possible the customer won't be able to connect to WiFi? What if they only have 802.11g does that make their claims that it contains the ability to connect to 802.11n false? If not then why do Apple's claims that it can connect to 4G LTE in the US and Canada false?
There's a big ass sticker on the BOX that clearly states that the iPad does not operate at 4G speeds in Australia. So where the fuck is the problem again?
Apple did not put this sticker on there. One Telstra store did, and only on its launch day stock.
So how can they advertise that it has WiFi when it's possible the customer won't be able to connect to WiFi? What if they only have 802.11g does that make their claims that it contains the ability to connect to 802.11n false?
No, you're comparing apples and oranges. 802.11n networks are ubiquitous, and while some 802.11g-only networks exist, it does not mean that a consumer can't connect to an 802.11n network elsewhere in the country.
The issue of 4G/LTE here is at a national level. There aren't some people who can and some people who can't connect to Telstra's LTE network with the iPad; everyone has been denied this ability. And Apple should have made this clear rather than plaster 4G all over their product and market it as such.
If not then why do Apple's claims that it can connect to 4G LTE in the US and Canada false?
I'm not saying that it's false. They are very much entitled to claim that it can connect to LTE networks in the US and Canada, because, well, it's fact.
There is a 4G LTE network in Australia and it's operated by Telstra. However, it does not operate on the same band as the ones in the US and Canada.
That is my understanding of the current situation, but I am amazed that Telstra didn't voluntarily, or weren't forced to, adopt one of the bands supported by Apple's iPad, or at least sit down with Apple and other mobile device manufacturers and decide what bands to use so that ALL smartphone or tablet devices can connect to a 4G LTE network. What were they thinking??? Obviously not about the customer!!
...it does not mean that a consumer can't connect to an 802.11n[LTE] network elsewhere...
There we go!
That is my understanding of the current situation, but I am amazed that Telstra didn't voluntarily, or weren't forced to, adopt one of the bands supported by Apple's iPad, or at least sit down with Apple and other mobile device manufacturers and decide what bands to use so that ALL smartphone or tablet devices can connect to a 4G LTE network. What were they thinking??? Obviously not about the customer!!
You do realise that plans for the infrastructure were laid out well before many mobile LTE devices were in existence?
Telstra doesn't use 700MHz for LTE because this is used for analog TV in Australia, so no carrier is able to adopt it as yet. And there is nothing out of the ordinary in the 1800MHz band they're using for LTE - look around Europe and the Asia Pacific and you'll see it's widely adopted.
Seriously, this is like the "does it or does it not support 3G" issue all over again. I give Apple two years tops before they release a quad- or penta-band LTE iPad that'll make the majority happy.
There we go!
You just took what I said out of context. I said "elsewhere in the country", not "elsewhere" (in general). There's a big difference when you're operating just within the confines of one country and its laws.
Australia has very strict legislation governing what you can and cannot do in the name of advertising. It's called the Trade Practices Act and operates at the Federal level. This isn't just a bunch of grumpy customers; on the face of it Apple could well be in breach of Commonwealth legislation.
The ads Apple have been running here have clearly stated its 4G credentials which the average consumer (not just the "ignorant, uneducated" variety that you rather condescendingly describe) could reasonably expect to be of some use on the 4G network we do, in fact, have here. Instead, it of no use whatsoever at this time. Customers should be able to purchase a product or service and expect it to be able to perform as advertised. The 4G connectivity simply won't do that here so Apple, sadly, is likely to be in breach and, if so, will need to take remedial action.
To use an analogy, how would a US consumer feel about being sold a PAL television set only to be told "it works fine in Australia"?
Listen PAL, you're actually totally right. If Apple is running TV ads in Australia that claim 4G, then they should definitely stop.