<strong>How about another example: "A shadowy government, with its own Air Force, its own Navy, its own fund raising mechanism, and the ability to pursue its own ideas of the National interest, free from all checks and balances, and free from the law itself." - Senator Daniel Inouye, United States Senator</strong><hr></blockquote>
Talk about taking things out of context!
This was Senator Inouye talking about the Iran-Contra affair, and how the profits from arms sales to Iran were used to fund the Contras, outside of the budgetary control of the Congress.
There were indeed serious legal, political, and constitutional issues here. But this quote from Senator Inouye has absolutely nothing to do with any vast, powerful secret world government. In comparison to the secret organization you wish us to believe in, Iran-Contra was a bunch of schoolyard bullies involved in a playground fight.
Since when Chinese and russian secret agencie works with the occidental secret services ?
It's easy to make such assertions without giving any proofs , explaining that they are not avalaible because it's a well hidden secret.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Again, you are missing my point. This group of people have been operating in the background throughout history, since the early 50's. They are not directly tied into any agency or any government, however they have select people within many of these organizations. Their power exceeds that of the white house and the US congress combined, the UN, or any agency or government worldwide.
They are not a visible entity but they keep this subject on a very short leash, and have been involved in psychological warfare and DDT programs perpetrated on both the public and the conventional military, for 5 decades. In fact the majority of information made available to the public over the years concerning everything alien, including many abductions, has been disinformation released or hoaxed by these people to perfectly cover the truth. This subject has been in plain sight of our society for decades, but it has been fictionalized through movies and TV shows, tightly controlled and ridiculed in the media, and basically shoved under the rug by our policy makers.
And, neither I nor Dr. Steven Greer are making "assumptions" with no proof available. Quite the opposite. Dr. Steven Greer can provide you with all the proof you will ever need and then tons after that, but it will require you to actually do a bit of work and read whats available on his site, or like I did, purchase either the book Disclosure which has the testimony of 69 of these witnesses in it, or order either the 2 hour or 4 hour videotape of these high level military and corporate witnesses.
Of course I already know you're going to complain that he's in this for just "the money", but his organization is non-profit and all funds aquired are used towards press conferences, the making of these materials, and strategically putting this all together. You've probably spent a few thousand dollars on medical books over the years, or at least a few hundred on fictional books. I don't see the difference if it means educating yourself.
<strong>so if this organization is so powerful, and all their secrets are being leaked, why isn't greer dead yet? (in some accident of course)</strong><hr></blockquote>
The fact that your asking me that, shows me you have done no research concerning this whatsoever. You obviously have not listened to any of the interviews as of yet, and therefore are wasting my time. I've already asked all these questions and many, many, many more. I am content with the answers I've received. I am not a spokesperson for Dr. Greer and it is quite possible I have made a few errors in my posts, although nothing major I don't think.
If you want the answer to your question, find it yourself. I've supplied everyone with more than enough information on this.
30 minutes in the interview as of now.. its okay, but its 99% consisting of the usual 'blah blah blah ufos everywhere blah blah US army denying everything blah blah vehicles beyond our dreams blah blah I got (Literally) every single person in the US army to tell the truth blah blah'... Not worth the time if U ask me.. And im usualy an UFO kind a guy!
Lucy, are you an idiot? I'm just curious. I guess I am cause I actually took the time to read this whole post, and then I actually read some of the junk on that hoax you refer to as a credible website.
Here's how reality works. If this was real, there would be no way to keep it a secret. There's a fundamental law of reality - if there's a secret so big that no one in the public should know about it - the public will eventually find out.
Secondly, none of it makes any sense. It's counterproductive to those with wealth and power to hide something that would inevitably give them even more wealth and power.
Additionally, your buddy would have a lot more credibility if he weren't some scam artist who wants to charge for the "information" he has.
Also, why do you lie to us in your posts? You claim that there is testimony from over 500 sources. First of all, this isn't even close to the truth. If you take Greer as being honest, he says he has deposed 100 witnesses NOT 500. He never uses that number, you made it up to try and sound more credible. He does say that they have identified 400 potential sources, but because no one cares, they don't have enough money to do the rest. So, you have lied to us to try and support your claim, and it's a bogus claim to begin with.
And you wonder why no one takes you seriously?
By the way, do you have a self-incinerating apartment? Do you keep a padlock on your fridge? Oh, and - how many copies of "Catcher In The Rye" do you own?
[QB]Lucy, are you an idiot? I'm just curious. I guess I am cause I actually took the time to read this whole post, and then I actually read some of the junk on that hoax you refer to as a credible website.[QB]
I personally do not consider myself an idiot, no. However, after extensively researching Dr. Greer's work I seriously don't understand how anyone with an I.Q. over their shoe size, can't come away from this at least acknowledging that there is something definately going on, even if your that skeptical and dense. Lets take a few of these witnesses as an example:
Captain Salas graduated from the Air Force Academy and spent seven years in active duty from 1964 to 1971. He also held positions at Martin Marietta and Rockwell and spent 21 years at the FAA. In the Air Force, he was an air traffic controller and a missile launch officer as well as an engineer on the Titan 3 missiles. He testifies about a UFO incident on the morning of March 16, 1967 where 16 nuclear missiles
simultaneously became non-operational at two different launch facilities immediately after guards saw UFOs hovering above. The guards could not identify these objects even though they were only about 30 feet away. The Air Force did an extensive investigation of the incidents and could not find a probable cause. At a debriefing about the incident, an officer from the Air Force Office of Special Investigations required him to sign a non-disclosure form and told him that he was not to talk about the event to anyone
including his family or other military staff. At a time during the Cold War when minor technical
anomalies were openly communicated amongst the staff, this incident was not, and to this day Captain Salas thinks this to be very unusual.
Now this is a man who was competent to be in control of nuclear tipped minute man missles (ICBM's) including having the responsability to launch them should he receive orders from the President, but he's not competent if he reports seeing a UFO.
Dr. Greer has in his possession Captain Salas's signed statement that this is true, the signed statements of 6 of the officers who were present that night and witnessed the UFO's, he has the reports filed by SAC Headquarters saying that "This incident was of extreme concern to SAC headquarters because they couldn?t explain it. Nobody could explain what happened, even after a lengthy investigation."
Dr. Greer also has Lt. Col. Arneson who spent 26 years in the USAF. He had an above top-secret SCI-TK (Special Compartmented Tango Kilo) clearance. He worked as a computer systems analyst for Boeing and was the Director of Logistics at Wright-Patterson AFB. At one point he was the cryptography officer for the entire Ramstein AFB in Germany and while there one day he received a classified message that said that a UFO had crashed in Spitsbergen Norway. While at Malmstrom AFB in Montana he again saw a message that said that a metallic circular UFO was seen hovering near the missile silos and that all the missiles
went off-line so that they could not be launched.
(Confirming Captain Salas's story)
Dr. Greer also has many official government documents regarding these and related UFO events at or near nuclear facilities.
Gordon Cooper was one of the original Mercury Seven astronauts and the last American to fly into space alone. In his testimony he recounts how he observed UFOs flying in the same formation as his fighter group over the skies of Germany These UFOs made maneuvers that could not be done by conventional fighters. He felt they must have be under intelligent control to communicate with one another due to the type of maneuvers they were mimicking. At another time, while filming conventional aircraft performing precision landings, a saucer flew directly overhead and landed ahead of them on a dry lakebed. The entire
event was filmed including detailed close-ups. The film was sent back to Washington and was never
returned.
Brigadier General Lovekin entered the military in 1958. In 1959 he joined the White House Army
Signaling Agency and served under President Eisenhower and then under President Kennedy with an above top secret clearance. He was familiar with Project Blue Book and related how that project documented highly scientific and specific UFO cases from very reliable sources. They reviewed photos taken from Air Force pilots, Marine Air Corps pilots, and some foreign pilots and multiple reports of radar lock-ons. He was also shown a piece of metallic debris taken from the Roswell crash. While working under President Eisenhower, he discovered that Eisenhower had a keen interest in UFO?s, but that Eisenhower came to realize that he had lost control of the subject.
Another witness, Colonel Charles Brown of Project Grudge also confirms that the really significant evidence was compartmented outside of Blue Book and in some cases even Grudge.
Mr. McDow entered the Navy in 1978 and gained a top-secret, Special Compartmented Intelligence (SCI) clearance with Zebra Stripes. (This means he was cleared to be in the command centre during major events, including Global Nuclear War). He was assigned to the Atlantic Operational Support Facility, Atlantic Command, then under Admiral Trane. Mr. McDow was present when a UFO was tracked by radar and seen by pilots visually moving at high speed up and down the Atlantic coast. The Command Center was put on Zebra alert and Admiral Trane gave the order to force down the UFO. Mr. McDow discusses threats, intimidation and confiscation of logbooks that occurred after the event.
Lance Corporal John Weygandt enlisted in the Marine Corp in 1994. Stationed in Peru to provide
perimeter security to a supposed drug-traffic radar installation, one night he and two other Sergeants were told to secure a possible crash site in the forest. When they arrived they saw a 20-meter egg-shaped UFO buried in the side of a gorge. He was called back from the craft, arrested, handcuffed and threatened and
abusively interrogated. One of the men told him that the interrogators basically did what they wanted and that they were not under Constitutional law. Weygandt believes that this UFO was shot down by a HAWK missile.
Dr. Greer possesses official government documents outlining cases of UFO's entering Peru's air space, the Air Force Base nearby scrambling SU-22's to intercept and attempts to destroy the vehicle.
For 6 years Mr. Callahan was the Division Chief of the Accidents and Investigations Branch of the FAA in Washington DC. In his testimony he tells about a 1986 Japanese Airlines 747 flight that was followed by a UFO for 31 minutes over the Alaskan skies. The UFO also trailed a United Airlines flight until the flight landed. There was visual confirmation as well as air-based and ground-based radar confirmation. The UFO was repoted to be the size of four 747's. This event was significant enough for the then FAA Administrator, Admiral Engen, to hold a briefing the next day where the FBI, CIA, President Reagan?s Scientific Study Team, as well as others attended. Videotape radar evidence, air traffic voice communications and paper reports were compiled and presented.
At the conclusion of this meeting, the attending CIA members instructed everyone present that ?the meeting never took place? and that ?this incident was never recorded?. Not realizing that there was additional evidence, they confiscated just the evidence presented, but Mr. Callahan was able to secure video tape and audio evidence of the event, the airline pilots reports, the official FAA reports, and hundreds of pages of computer data, including the radar tracings, all of which is in Dr. Greer's possession.
Thats 8 of the "NOW" over 500 witnesses.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by OBJRA10:
[QB]Here's how reality works. If this was real, there would be no way to keep it a secret. There's a fundamental law of reality - if there's a secret so big that no one in the public should know about it - the public will eventually find out.[QB]
I'm not talking about some hushed up secret that no one knows about. If you walk up to nearly anyone (except in famined country's possibly), anywhere, and mention the term "UFO", they know exactly what your talking about. If you've done any research into this topic at all, you'll know that there are thousands of concrete cases worldwide, most of which have been explained away as hallucinations, or swamp gas, or some ridiculously stupid reason like this. Cases involving 4 way confirmation (ground visual, ground radar, airborne visual, airborne radar), large amounts of witnesses (sometimes in the thousands), reports by highly credible people (police, airline pilots, military, etc), one of my personal favorites, videotaped and photographed events (of course as soon as someone is found to have hoaxed one, then they all must be hoaxes), and so on.
This subject isn't being kept a secret, its in plain site of all of us, and its even part of our culture (movies, music, TV). However, the truth about it IS being kept a secret, the advancements within it are being kept a secret, and the actions of the people controlling it are definately being kept secret. And more than this, our leaders and government and intelligence officials are being lied to and denied access to it.
Everyone thinks a secret this big can't be kept. The development of the Hydrogen Bomb was kept secret. The only reason it was let out, was because they started detonating them. The NRO (National Reconnasaince Organization) was kept secret for many years. This secret has been kept by releasing huge amounts of disinformation to the public, and by ridiculing it extensively, so people won't even talk about it for fear of being laughed at.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by OBJRA10:
[QB]Secondly, none of it makes any sense. It's counterproductive to those with wealth and power to hide something that would inevitably give them even more wealth and power.[QB]
Really. You want to explain to me how an over-unity energy device, that extracts vast amounts of energy from the baseline energy field around us, would be worth more to the multi-trillion dollar energy and transporation sector, when we're talking about free energy. Something that can't have a meter put on it, because it requires no fuel source. Something with no related repair costs because there are no moving parts. Something that will provide you with all the energy you could ever need, without transmission lines, with the associated cost being just buying the device itself.
Please explain this to me. I'm such an idiot, I just can't figure it out.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by OBJRA10:
[QB]Additionally, your buddy would have a lot more credibility if he weren't some scam artist who wants to charge for the "information" he has.[QB]
How would you go about it then? It costs money to travel around the globe filming these witnesses, it costs money to edit, assemble, and distribute large amounts of videos, books & DVDs to the public. I suppose you get all your music CDs and movies for free?
Do you have any idea how much it costs to launch a global campaign to disclose this information and get the public to support open congressional hearings on the matter? He provides a free fax service on his website so anyone can fax a letter into their Congressman, Senators or Presidents office. He held a National Press Conference May 9th 2001 at the Washington Press Centre, where 21 of his witnesses spoke about their experiences in front of 22 network cameras, live. Any idea what it would cost to host that? Add the fact he has foregone $250,000 a year as an emergency room doctor and Chairman of Emergency Medicine, since 1994.
The Disclosure Project is a 501(c)(3) non-profit organization that survives solely on donations and sales of educational materials. In order to educate the public, the government leaders, the media, and the scientific establishment, a well-co-ordinated and professional effort is needed, and that costs money. I'm not sure what world your living in, but you might want to seek professional help about your delusions.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by OBJRA10:
[QB]Also, why do you lie to us in your posts? You claim that there is testimony from over 500 sources. First of all, this isn't even close to the truth. If you take Greer as being honest, he says he has deposed 100 witnesses NOT 500. He never uses that number, you made it up to try and sound more credible. He does say that they have identified 400 potential sources, but because no one cares, they don't have enough money to do the rest. So, you have lied to us to try and support your claim, and it's a bogus claim to begin with.[QB]
You haven't been reading carefully. I never said there was testimony from 500 witnesses, I said Dr. Greer has over 500 witnesses. The amount of witnesses given at the website hasn't been updated since 2001. Since the May 9th Press Conference, 113 new witnesses have come forward. You consider all of this to be a bogus claim? Prove it.
I've been honest in all my posts, and I've done a good job of presenting a few facts. I've provided all the information anyone could want, to research this, which I have done extensively, hence the reason I support it. I've asked all the questions, and demanded the answers, and I have never been let down. Every single statement Dr. Greer makes, he backs up with evidence, and all his witnesses are asking for a subpeona, so they can testify in a court of law.
You present your personal opinions with nothing to back them up. You attack me every chance you get but provide no information supporting your claims.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by OBJRA10:
[QB]And you wonder why no one takes you seriously?[QB]
P.S. I think many people should be interested in this. Look at the number of people posting in the Hybrid Cars Thread.
I personally do not consider myself an idiot, no. However, after extensively researching Dr. Greer's work
<hr></blockquote>
I'm sorry, but buying into the shadow government idea, and shamelessly using a famous quote about those involved in the iran-contra affair to prove it, shows you haven't done real research.
More importantly, buying into this diverts your energy from exposing the real misinformation going on, such as with Iraq.
Also, I have yet to find validation that what they were doing was the largest webcast, as claimed by greer. In fact, it was madonna in 2000 with 9 MILLION VIEWERS.
So, no, you have not done your research. I don't have time to look into the rest of his claims, but you can figure it out on your own.
BTW: People like this take advantage of your beliefs of inferiority of knowledge. Do your own research. If you do, the truth will be revealed.
For example, anyone that says that Nuclear weapons are beyond the capacity of people to figure out on their own obviously did not pay attention in college.
ALSO, the way he charges is HIGHLY SUSPICIOUS. It is geared toward individuals and there is no info for organizational access. I'M TALKING ABOUT LIBRARIES. This is not how a legitimate scientific organization deals with information subscriptions. Libraries are the primary souce of revenue for legitimate research publications, esspecially so since we pay up to tens of thousands of dollars for some annual subscriptions. Neglecting libraries demonstrates a self-consciousness on the part of CSETI.
But they rely on subscriptions from people that do not know any better, since that is also the group that eats up the shit he's spewing.
Of course I already know you're going to complain that he's in this for just "the money", but his organization is non-profit and all funds aquired are used towards press conferences, the making of these materials, and strategically putting this all together. You've probably spent a few thousand dollars on medical books over the years, or at least a few hundred on fictional books. I don't see the difference if it means educating yourself.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Look what I found:
[quote]Dr. Steven Greer, CSETI, Admits His Connection With Lawrence Rockefeller
Dr. Steven Greer, who in recent months flew to England to obtain a clear
vivid video tape of a disk pulling aerial manuevers from an English couple
and flew back to the US, refusing to show anyone the video, was on the
Starfire Radio Program on Cable News Network on Nov 31st. When asked about
the video tape, Greer stated that he had even better videos, but was saving
them for Project Starlight, and indicated that none of the
superlative videos would be released to the public. When asked how an
apparently "poor country doctor" could afford to flit around the world and
do all these things, Greer several times raised the fact of his friendship
with Lawrence Rockefeller. While not a surprising revelation, this public
statement ensures that Greer will now be counted among the ranks of those
participating in the global coverup of information related to this issue,
and adds his name to the long list of New World Order control factions
determined to keep the general public ignorant on the important issue of
MD , have any expertise in the field of energy and UFO. I have spent 14 years of my life to study medecine, it do not give me enough times to learn others sciences, even if i am interested as a amator.
Understanding physics requires to have the basic and fundamental knowledge, a knowledge that you can hardly learn otherwise than in school or universisty.
Sorry, Lucys trip, but nobody here seems ready to follow you. You are free to continue this thread, but we are free to say what we think of it.
The questions that Dr. Greer asks are cogent ones. Any one who thinks that our government has been honest concerning the UFO question is a fool. If you think the possibility of ET life is ridiculous you have not studied the Drake equation, nor anything else concerning these phenomena.
There is mystery with UFO's, life certainly exist elsewhere in a stastistical point of vue, but when i read this
[quote] "More than one extraterrestrial civilization is
represented in the current activities involving
earth."
"These extraterrestrial civilizations are working
in concert and not competitively ... ."
"These beings have bases within this solar
system ...."
"A Plan is in place to allow for gradually broader
and deeper contact with human society ...." <hr></blockquote>
It's plain ridiculous.
UFO , means that there is a mysterious phenomena. . UFO are mysterious flying object, that science cannot explain. No more no less. Serious scientist who deal with these phenomenum are very cautious.
<strong>The questions that Dr. Greer asks are cogent ones. Any one who thinks that our government has been honest concerning the UFO question is a fool. If you think the possibility of ET life is ridiculous you have not studied the Drake equation, nor anything else concerning these phenomena.</strong><hr></blockquote>
'our government' is a conceptual entity in the context of 'UFO.' It is not practical nor is it realistic.
ET life has nothing to do with the 'UFO' cultural phenomenon. Didn't anyone here ever take a biology class?
The whole UFO thing is a cultural phenomenon. It has a very clear history and evolution (think the evolution of the 'alien' from the Hills to 'Communion') and readily apparent influences. Even the advent of the 'flying saucer' was a widespead misinterpretation of a pilot's reports. He said they skipped across the sky like saucers on water, and the press picked up on 'flying saucers,' an idea that had been put before in fiction, possibly by Raymond Palmer.
Ah, Raymon Palmer. The start of it all. Here's a good history of the UFO phenomenon:
[quote]The Man Who Invented Flying Saucers
by John A. Keel
North America's "Bigfoot" was nothing more than an Indian legend until
a zoologist named Ivan T. Sanderson began collecteing contemporary
sightings of the creature in the early 1950s, publishing the reports
in a series of popular magazine articles. He turned the tall, hairy
biped into a household word, just as British author Rupert T. Gould
rediscovered sea serpents in the 1930s and, through his radio
broadcasts, articles, and books, brought Loch Ness to the attention of
the world. Another writer named Vincent Gaddis originated the Bermuda
Triangle in his 1965 book, Invisible Horizons: Strange Mysteries of
the Sea. Sanderson and Charles Berlitz later added to the Triangle
lore, and rewriting their books became a cottage industry among hack
writers in the United States.
Charles Fort put bread on the table of generations of science fiction
writers when, in his 1931 book Lo!, he assembled the many reports of
objects and people strangely transposed in time and place, and coined
the term "teleportation." And it took a politician named Ignatius
Donnelly to revive lost Atlantis and turn it into a popular subject
(again and again and again). (1)
But the man responsible for the most well-known of all such modern
myths -- flying saucers -- has somehow been forgotten. Before the
first flying saucer was sighted in 1947, he suggested the idea to the
American public. Then he converted UFO reports from what might have
been a Silly Season phenomenon into a subject, and kept that subject
alive during periods of total public disinterest.
His name was Raymond A. Palmer.
Born in 1911, Ray Palmer suffered severe injuries that left him
dwarfed in stature and partially crippled. He had a difficult
childhood because of his infirmities and, like many isolated young men
in those pre-television days, he sought escape in "dime novels," cheap
magazines printed on coarse paper and filled with lurid stories
churned out by writers who were paid a penny a word. He became an avid
science fiction fan, and during the Great Depression of the 1930s he
was active in the world of fandom -- a world of mimeographed fanzines
and heavy correspondence. (Science fiction fandom still exists and is
very well organized with well-attended annual conventions and lavishly
printed fanzines, some of which are even issued weekly.) In 1930, he
sold his first science fiction story, and in 1933 he created the Jules
Verne Prize Club which gave out annual awards for the best
achievements in sci-fi. A facile writer with a robust imagination,
Palmer was able to earn many pennies during the dark days of the
Depression, undoubtedly buoyed by his mischievous sense of humor, a
fortunate development motivated by his unfortunate physical problems.
Pain was his constant companion.
In 1938, the Ziff-Davis Publishing Company in Chicago purchased a
dying magazine titled Amazing Stories. It had been created in 1929 by
the inestimable Hugo Gernsback, who is generally acknowledged as the
father of modern science fiction. Gernsback, an electrical engineer,
ran a small publishing empire of magazines dealing with radio and
technical subjects. (he also founded Sexology, a magazine of soft-core
pornography disguised as science, which enjoyed great success in a
somewhat conservative era.) It was his practice to sell -- or even
give away -- a magazine when its circulation began to slip.
Although Amazing Stories was one of the first of its kind, its
readership was down to a mere 25,000 when Gernsback unloaded it on
Ziff-Davis. William B. Ziff decided to hand the editorial reins to the
young science fiction buff from Milwaukee, Wisconsin. At the age of
28, Palmer found his life's work.
Expanding the pulp magazine to 200 pages (and as many as 250 pages in
some issues), Palmer deliberately tailored it to the tastes of teenage
boys. He filled it with nonfiction features and filler items on
science and pseudo-science in addition to the usual formula short
stories of BEMs (Bug-Eyed Monsters) and beauteous maidens in distress.
Many of the stories were written by Palmer himself under a variety of
pseudonyms such as Festus Pragnell and Thorton Ayre, enabling him to
supplement his meager salary by paying himself the usual penny-a-word.
His old cronies from fandom also contributed stories to the magazine
with a zeal that far surpassed their talents.
In fact, of the dozen or so science magazines then being sold on the
newsstands, Amazing Stories easily ranks as the very worst of the lot.
Its competitors, such as Startling Stories, Thrilling Wonder Stories,
Planet Stories and the venerable Astounding (now renamed Analog)
employed skilled, experienced professional writers like Ray Bradbury,
Isaac Asimov, and L. Ron Hubbard (who later created Dianetics and
founded Scientology). Amazing Stories was garbage in comparison and
hardcore sci-fi fans tended to sneer at it. (2)
The magazine might have limped through the 1940s, largely ignored by
everyone, if not for a single incident. Howard Browne, a television
writer who served as Palmer's associate editor in those days, recalls:
"early in the 1940s, a letter came to us from Dick Shaver purporting
to reveal the "truth" about a race of freaks, called "Deros," living
under the surface of the earth. Ray Palmer read it, handed it to me
for comment. I read a third of it, tossed it in the waste basket. Ray,
who loved to show his editors a trick or two about the business,
fished it out of the basket, ran it in Amazing, and a flood of mail
poured in from readers who insisted every word of it was true because
they'd been plagued by Deros for years. (3)
Actually, Palmer had accidentally tapped a huge, previously
unrecognized audience. Nearly every community has at least one person
who complains constantly to the local police that someone -- usually a
neighbor -- is aiming a terrible ray gun at their house or apartment.
This ray, they claim, is ruining their health, causing their plants to
die, turning their bread moldy, making their hair and teeth fall out,
and broadcasting voices into their heads. [To the Reichian concept of
DOR (Dead Orgone), stir in the bizarre sci-fi tales of "Alex
Constantine," and Kathy Kasten, et al, for a latter-day equivalent of
the Shaverian Dero Ray-Gun Attack mythos -B:.B:.] Psychiatrists are
very familiar with these "ray" victims and relate the problem with
paranoid-schizophrenia. For the most part, these paranoiacs are
harmless and usually elderly. Occasionally, however, the voices they
hear urge them to perform destructive acts, particularly arson. They
are a distrustful lot, loners by nature, and very suspicious of
everyone, including the government and all figures of authority. In
earlier times, they thought they were hearing the voice of God and/or
the Devil. Today they often blame the CIA or space beings for their
woes. They naturally gravitate to eccentric causes and organizations
which reflect their own fears and insecurities, advocating bizarre
political philosophies and reinforcing their peculiar belief systems.
Ray Palmer unintentionally gave thousands of these people focus to
their lives.
Shaver's long, rambling letter claimed that while he was welding (4)
he heard voices which explained to him how the underground Deros were
controlling life on the surface of the earth through the use of
fiendish rays. Palmer rewrote the letter, making a novelette out of
it, and it was published in the March 1945 issue under the title: "I
Remember Lemuria -- by Richard Shaver."
The Shaver Mystery was born.
-=oOo=-
Somehow the news of Shaver's discovery quickly spread beyond science
fiction circles and people who had never before bought a pulp magazine
were rushing to their local newsstands. The demand for Amazing Stories
far exceeded the supply and Ziff-Davis had to divert paper supplies
(remember there were still wartime shortages) from other magazines so
they could increase the press run of AS.
"Palmer traveled to Pennsylvania to talk to Shaver," Howard Browne
later recalled, "found him sitting on reams of stuff he'd written
about the Deros, bought every bit of it and contracted for more. I
thought it was the sickest crap I'd run into. Palmer ran it and
doubled the circulation of Amazing within four months."
By the end of 1945, Amazing Stories was selling 250,000 copies per
month, an amazing circulation for a science fiction pulp magazine.
Palmer sat up late at night, rewriting Shaver's material and writing
other short stories about the Deros under pseudonyms. Thousands of
letters poured into the office. Many of them offered supporting
"evidence" for the Shaver stories, describing strange objects they had
seen in the sky and strange encounters they had had with alien beings.
It seemed that many thousands of people were aware of the existence of
some distinctly non-terrestrial group in our midst. Paranoid fantasies
were mixed with tales that had the uncomfortable ring of truth. The
"Letters-to-the-Editor" section was the most interesting part of the
publication. Here is a typical contribution from the issue for June
1946:
Sirs:
I flew my last combat mission on May 26 [1945] when I was shot up over
Bassein and ditched my ship in Ramaree roads off Chedubs Island. I was
missing five days. I requested leave at Kashmere (sic). I and Capt.
(deleted by request) left Srinagar and went to Rudok then through the
Khese pass to the northern foothills of the Karakoram. We found what
we were looking for. We knew what we were searching for.
For heaven's sake, drop the whole thing! You are playing with
dynamite. My companion and I fought our way out of a cave with
submachine guns. I have two 9" scars on my left arm that came from
wounds given me in the cave when I was 50 feet from a moving object of
any kind and in perfect silence. The muscles were nearly ripped out.
How? I don't know. My friend has a hole the size of a dime in his
right bicep. It was seared inside. How we don't know. But we both
believe we know more about the Shaver Mystery than any other pair. You
can imagine my fright when I picked up my first copy of Amazing
Stories and see you splashing words about the subject.
The identity of the author of this letter was withheld by request.
Later Palmer revealed his name: Fred Lee Crisman. He had inadvertently
described the effects of a laser beam -- even though the laser wasn't
invented until years later. Apparently Crisman was obsessed with Deros
and death rays long before Kenneth Arnold sighted the "first" UFO in
June 1947.
In September 1946, Amazing Stories published a short article by W.C.
Hefferlin, "Circle-Winged Plane," describing experiments with a
circular craft in 1927 in San Francisco. Shaver's (Palmer's)
contribution to that issue was a 30,000 word novelette, "Earth Slaves
to Space," dealing with spaceships that regularly visited the Earth to
kidnap humans and haul them away to some other planet. Other stories
described amnesia, an important element in the UFO reports that still
lay far in the future, and mysterious men who supposedly served as
agents for those unfriendly Deros.
A letter from army lieutenant Ellis L. Lyon in the September 1946
issue expressed concern over the psychological impact of the Shaver
Mystery.
What I am worried about is that there are a few, and perhaps quite
large number of readers who may accept this Shaver Mystery as being
founded on fact, even as Orson Welles put across his invasion from
Mars, via radio some years ago. It is of course, impossible for the
reader to sift out in your "Discussions" and "Reader Comment"
features, which are actually letters from readers and which are
credited to an Amazing Stories staff writer, whipped up to keep alive
interest in your fictional theories. However, if the letters are
generally the work of readers, it is distressing to see the reaction
you have caused in their muddled brains. I refer to the letters from
people who have "seen" the exhaust trails of rocket ships or "felt"
the influence of radiations from underground sources.
Palmer assigned artists to make sketches of objects described by
readers and disc-shaped flying machines appeared on the covers of his
magazine long before June 1947. So we can note that a considerable
number of people -- millions -- were exposed to the flying saucer
concept before the national news media was even aware of it. Anyone
who glanced at the magazines on a newsstand and caught a glimpse of
the saucers-adorned Amazing Stories cover had the image implanted in
his subconscious. In the course of the two years between march 1945
and June 1947, millions of Americans had seen at least one issue of
Amazing Stories and were aware of the Shaver Mystery with all of its
bewildering implications. Many of these people were out studying the
empty skies in the hopes that they, like other Amazing Stories
readers, might glimpse something wondrous. World War II was over and
some new excitement was needed. Raymond Palmer was supplying it --
much to the alarm of Lt. Lyon and Fred Crisman.
-=oOo=-
Aside from Palmer's readers, two other groups were ready to serve as
cadre for the believers. About 1,500 members of Tiffany Thayer's
Fortean Society knew that weird aerial objects had been sighted
throughout history and some of them were convinced that this planet
was under surveillance by beings from another world. Tiffany Thayer
was rigidly opposed to Franklin Roosevelt and loudly proclaimed that
almost everything was a government conspiracy, so his Forteans were
fully prepared to find new conspiracies hidden in the forthcoming UFO
mystery. They would become instant experts, willing to educate the
press and public when the time came. The second group were
spiritualists and students of the occult, headed by Dr. Meade Layne,
who had been chatting with the space people at seances through trance
mediums and Ouija boards. They knew the space ships were coming and
hardly surprised when "ghost rockets" were reported over Europe in
1946. (5) Combined, these three groups represented a formidable
segment of the population.
On June 24, 1947, Kenneth Arnold made his famous sighting of a group
of "flying saucers" over Mt. Rainier, and in Chicago Ray Palmer
watched in astonishment as the newspaper clippings poured in from
every state. The things that he had been fabricating for his magazine
were suddenly coming true!
For two weeks, the newspapers were filled with UFO reports. Then they
tapered off and the Forteans howled "Censorship!" and "Conspiracy!"
But dozens of magazine writers were busy compiling articles on this
new subject and their pieces would appear steadily during the next
year. One man, who had earned his living writing stories for the pulp
magazines in the 1930s, saw the situation as a chance to break into
the "slicks" (better quality magazines printed on glossy or "slick"
paper). Although he was 44 years old at the time of Pearl Harbor, he
served as a Captain in the marines until he was in a plane accident.
Discharged as a Major (it was the practice to promote officers one
grade when they retired), he was trying to resume his writing career
when Ralph Daigh, an editor at True magazine, assigned him to
investigate the flying saucer enigma. Thus, at the age of 50, Donald
E. Keyhhoe entered Never-Never-Land. His article, "Flying Saucers Are
Real," would cause a sensation, and Keyhoe would become an instant UFO
personality.
That same year, Palmer decided to put out an all-flying saucer issue
of Amazing Stories. Instead, the publisher demanded that he drop the
whole subject after, according to Palmer, two men in Air Force
uniforms visited him. Palmer decided to publish a magazine of his own.
Enlisting the aid of Curtis Fuller, editor of a flying magazine, and a
few other friends, he put out the first issue of Fate in the spring of
1948. A digest-sized magazine printed on the cheapest paper, Fate was
as poorly edited as Amazing Stories and had no impact on the reading
public. But it was the only newsstand periodical that carried UFO
reports in every issue. The Amazing Stories readership supported the
early issues wholeheartedly.
In the fall of 1948, the first flying saucer convention was held at
the Labor Temple on 14th Street in New York City. Attended by about
thirty people, most of whom were clutching the latest issue of Fate,
the meeting quickly dissolved into a shouting match. (6) Although the
flying saucer mystery was only a year old, the side issues of
government conspiracy and censorship already dominated the situation
because of their strong emotional appeal. The U.S. Air Force had been
sullenly silent throughout 1948 while, unbeknownst to the UFO
advocates, the boys at Wright- Patterson Air Force Base in Ohio were
making a sincere effort to untangle the mystery.
When the Air Force investigation failed to turn up any tangible
evidence (even though the investigators accepted the extraterrestrial
theory) General Hoyt Vandenburg, Chief of the Air Force and former
head of the CIA, ordered a negative report to release to the public.
The result was Project Grudge, hundreds of pages of irrelevant
nonsense that was unveiled around the time True magazine printed
Keyhoe's pro-UFO article. Keyhoe took this personally, even though his
article was largely a rehash of Fort's book, and Ralph Daigh had
decided to go with the extraterrestrial hypothesis because it seemed
to be the most commercially acceptable theory (that is, it would sell
magazines).
-=oOo=-
Palmer's relationship with Ziff-Davis was strained now that he was
publishing his own magazine. "When I took over from Palmer, in 1949,"
Howard Browne said, "I put an abrupt end to the Shaver Mystery --
writing off over 7,000 dollars worth of scripts."
Moving to Amherst, Wisconsin, Palmer set up his own printing plant and
eventually he printed many of those Shaver stories in his Hidden
Worlds series. As it turned out, postwar inflation and the advent of
television was killing the pulp magazine market anyway. In the fall of
1949, hundreds of pulps suddenly ceased publication, putting thousands
of writers and editors out of work. Amazing Stories has often changed
hands since but is still being published, and is still paying its
writers a penny a word. (7)
For some reason known only to himself, Palmer chose not to use his
name in Fate. Instead, a fictitious "Robert N. Webster" was listed as
editor for many years. Palmer established another magazine, Search, to
compete with Fate. Search became a catch-all for inane letters and
occult articles that failed to meet Fate's low standards.
Although there was a brief revival of public and press interest in
flying saucers following the great wave of the summer of 1952, the
subject largely remained in the hands of cultists, cranks, teenagers,
and housewives who reproduced newspaper clippings in little
mimeographed journals and looked up to Palmer as their fearless
leader.
In June, 1956, a major four-day symposium on UFOs was held in
Washington, D.C. It was unquestionably the most important UFO affair
of the 1950s and was attended by leading military men, government
officials and industrialists. Men like William Lear, inventor of the
Lear Jet [Yup, John "The Horrible Truth" Lear's dad -B:.B:.], and
assorted generals, admirals and former CIA heads freely discussed the
UFO "problem" with the press. Notably absent were Ray Palmer and
Donald Keyhoe. One of the results of the meetings was the founding of
the National Investigation Committee on Aerial Phenomena (NICAP) by a
physicist named Townsend Brown. Although the symposium received
extensive press coverage at the time, it was subsequently censored out
of UFO history by the UFO cultists themselves -- primarily because
they had not participated in it. (8)
The American public was aware of only two flying saucer personalities,
contactee George Adamski, a lovable rogue with a talent for obtaining
publicity, and Donald Keyhoe, a zealot who howled "Coverup!" and was
locked in mortal combat with Adamski for newspaper coverage. Since
Adamski was the more colorful (he had ridden a saucer to the moon), he
was usually awarded more attention. The press gave him the title of
"astronomer" (he lived in a house on Mount Palomar where a great
telescope was in operation), while Keyhoe attacked him as "the
operator of a hamburger stand." Ray Palmer tried to remain aloof of
the warring factions, so naturally, some of them turned against him.
The year 1957 was marked by several significant developments. There
was another major flying saucer wave. Townsend Brown's NICAP
floundered and Keyhoe took it over. And Ray Palmer launched a new
newsstand publication called Flying Saucers From Other Worlds. In the
early issues he hinted that he knew some important "secret." After
tantalizing his readers for months, he finally revealed that UFOs came
from the center of the earth and the phrase "From Other Worlds" was
dropped from the title. His readers were variously enthralled,
appalled, and galled by the revelation.
For seven years, from 1957 to 1964, ufology in the United States was
in total limbo. This was the Dark Age. Keyhoe and NICAP were buried in
Washington, vainly tilting at windmills and trying to initiate a
congressional investigation into the UFO situation. [It is therefore
with Great Thanksgiving in Our Hearts that we applaud the Fine Efforts
of CSETI's Steve Greer to carry on this proud -- albeit amusingly
Quixotic -- tradition, some four decades later. -B:.B:.]
A few hundred UFO believers clustered around Coral Lorenzen's Aerial
Phenomena Research Organization (APRO). And about 2,000 teenagers
bought Flying Saucers from newsstands each month. Palmer devoted much
space to UFO clubs, information exchanges, and letters-to-the-editor.
So it was Palmer, and Palmer alone, who kept the subject alive during
the Dark Age and lured new youngsters into ufology. He published his
strange books about Deros, and ran a mail-order business selling the
UFO books that had been published after various waves of the 1950s.
His partners in the Fate venture bought him out, so he was able to
devote his full time to his UFO enterprises.
Palmer had set up a system similar to sci-fi fandom, but with himself
as the nucleus. He had come a long way since his early days and the
Jules Verne Prize Club. He had been instrumental in inventing a whole
system of belief, a frame of reference -- the magical world of
Shaverism and flying saucers -- and he had set himself up as the king
of that world. Once the belief system had been set up it became
self-perpetuating. The people beleaguered by mysterious rays were
joined by the wishful thinkers who hoped that living, compassionate
beings existed out there beyond the stars. They didn't need any real
evidence. The belief itself was enough to sustain them.
When a massive new UFO wave -- the biggest one in U.S. history --
struck in 1964 and continued unabated until 1968, APRO and NICAP were
caught unawares and unprepared to deal with renewed public interest.
Palmer increased the press run of Flying Saucers and reached out to a
new audience. Then in the 1970s, a new Dark Age began. October 1973
produced a flurry of well- publicized reports and then the doldrums
set in. NICAP strangled in its own confusion and dissolved in a puddle
of apathy, along with scores of lesser UFO organizations. Donald
Keyhoe, a very elder statesman, lives in seclusion in Virginia. Most
of the hopeful contactees and UFO investigators of the 1940s and 50s
have passed away. Palmer's Flying Saucers quietly self-destructed in
1975, but he continued with Search until his death in 1977. Richard
Shaver is gone but the Shaver Mystery still has a few adherents. Yet
the sad truth is that none of this might have come about if Howard
Browne hadn't scoffed at that letter in that dingy editorial office in
<strong>The questions that Dr. Greer asks are cogent ones. Any one who thinks that our government has been honest concerning the UFO question is a fool. If you think the possibility of ET life is ridiculous you have not studied the Drake equation, nor anything else concerning these phenomena.</strong><hr></blockquote>
There's a big difference between the possibility of extraterrestrial life and the possibility of extraterrestrial visitors.
There's a big difference between acknowledging that, by the strict literal meaning of "UFO", that yes, there have been objects that appear to fly that have not been identified, and in believing that UFOs, in the popular sense of alien spacecraft flying around in our Earthly skies, exist.
There's a big difference between acknowledging that our governments have lied and do lie to us, and believing in specific gigantic conspiracies to hide specific interpretations of what truths lurk behind those lies.
There's a big difference between realizing that powerful business interests like the oil industry can, and probably have at one time or another, worked to suppress technology that might threaten their profit margins, and believing that a widespread, hugely cooperative rather than competitive, partnership of governments, wealthy individuals, and corporations can single-mindedly pursue a unified agenda spanning over decades and generations, dedicated to the suppression of specific technologies and information about alien visitors, with the power to either suppress or discredit any piece of information that THEY do not want released, over an enormous and comprehensive range of media outlets, leaving nothing behind but blurry photographs, videos with unimpressive streaks of light, incomplete plans for technological marvels, and earnest personal testimonials with little or no hard evidence to back them up.
Do I believe that alien life is possible? Certainly! In fact, I think it's very likely.
Do I believe that alien life has ever visited the Earth? From what we know of physics today, this seems a daunting task for an alien race to undertake. But given technological and scientific advancement beyond what we humans currently know, or simply given aliens with a lot of plain old determination and patience, alien visitation certainly seems plausible.
Has alien visitation actually happened? Who knows? If it has, is there much relationship between popular UFO beliefs and such visitations? Probably not! Do we need to believe in alien visitation to explain the pyramids, the Nazca lines, the atomic bomb, etc.? Not at all. Human ingenuity is more than enough to explain any of those things.
Do I believe that our governments are hiding more than a few things from us? Oh, yeah. Do I believe that some shadowy extra-governmental, super-governmental conspiracy of the rich and powerful has systematically managed to suppress and/or discredit amazing technologies and alien visitations for over fifty years? No, I can't say that I'm willing to buy that.
In fact, I think it's odd that the same people who often won't credit humans with enough intelligence to build pyramids on their own, simultaneously believe that secretive little groups of these same limited human beings are capable of the incredible unflagging competence, devotion, and time-tested unity of purpose as would be needed to pull off the amazing, multi-generational conspiracies of suppression of knowledge and technology that the UFO conspiracist view of the world requires.
Then what is wrong with the questions he asks? I don't agree with his theories, nor all of his "evidence" of conspiracy, but without openess on these issues the truth wil never be found. You guys are painting a complete caricuature of people who have interest in the UFO phenomena. Oh yeah, everyone who takes UFO reports seriously believes Adamski and in crop circles and worldwide coverups.
<strong>Then what is wrong with the questions he asks? I don't agree with his theories, nor all of his "evidence" of conspiracy, but without openess on these issues the truth wil never be found. You guys are painting a complete caricuature of people who have interest in the UFO phenomena. Oh yeah, everyone who takes UFO reports seriously believes Adamski and in crop circles and worldwide coverups.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Two posts up I have posted the history of the UFO phenomenon. Read it.
Comments
<strong>How about another example: "A shadowy government, with its own Air Force, its own Navy, its own fund raising mechanism, and the ability to pursue its own ideas of the National interest, free from all checks and balances, and free from the law itself." - Senator Daniel Inouye, United States Senator</strong><hr></blockquote>
Talk about taking things out of context!
This was Senator Inouye talking about the Iran-Contra affair, and how the profits from arms sales to Iran were used to fund the Contras, outside of the budgetary control of the Congress.
There were indeed serious legal, political, and constitutional issues here. But this quote from Senator Inouye has absolutely nothing to do with any vast, powerful secret world government. In comparison to the secret organization you wish us to believe in, Iran-Contra was a bunch of schoolyard bullies involved in a playground fight.
[ 01-13-2003: Message edited by: shetline ]</p>
<strong>
Since when Chinese and russian secret agencie works with the occidental secret services ?
It's easy to make such assertions without giving any proofs , explaining that they are not avalaible because it's a well hidden secret.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Again, you are missing my point. This group of people have been operating in the background throughout history, since the early 50's. They are not directly tied into any agency or any government, however they have select people within many of these organizations. Their power exceeds that of the white house and the US congress combined, the UN, or any agency or government worldwide.
They are not a visible entity but they keep this subject on a very short leash, and have been involved in psychological warfare and DDT programs perpetrated on both the public and the conventional military, for 5 decades. In fact the majority of information made available to the public over the years concerning everything alien, including many abductions, has been disinformation released or hoaxed by these people to perfectly cover the truth. This subject has been in plain sight of our society for decades, but it has been fictionalized through movies and TV shows, tightly controlled and ridiculed in the media, and basically shoved under the rug by our policy makers.
And, neither I nor Dr. Steven Greer are making "assumptions" with no proof available. Quite the opposite. Dr. Steven Greer can provide you with all the proof you will ever need and then tons after that, but it will require you to actually do a bit of work and read whats available on his site, or like I did, purchase either the book Disclosure which has the testimony of 69 of these witnesses in it, or order either the 2 hour or 4 hour videotape of these high level military and corporate witnesses.
Of course I already know you're going to complain that he's in this for just "the money", but his organization is non-profit and all funds aquired are used towards press conferences, the making of these materials, and strategically putting this all together. You've probably spent a few thousand dollars on medical books over the years, or at least a few hundred on fictional books. I don't see the difference if it means educating yourself.
Hey, what's that noise... helicopters... ljksd
dd
nj m
[ 01-13-2003: Message edited by: Hassan i Sabbah ]</p>
<strong>so if this organization is so powerful, and all their secrets are being leaked, why isn't greer dead yet? (in some accident of course)</strong><hr></blockquote>
The fact that your asking me that, shows me you have done no research concerning this whatsoever. You obviously have not listened to any of the interviews as of yet, and therefore are wasting my time. I've already asked all these questions and many, many, many more. I am content with the answers I've received. I am not a spokesperson for Dr. Greer and it is quite possible I have made a few errors in my posts, although nothing major I don't think.
If you want the answer to your question, find it yourself. I've supplied everyone with more than enough information on this.
Part of the answer: Exposure
<strong><a href="http://forums.appleinsider.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=8&t=000512"; target="_blank">The Proof.</a>
[ 01-13-2003: Message edited by: Hassan i Sabbah ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hahahahahahahaha <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
I'm outta here.
...mystery solved.
Here's how reality works. If this was real, there would be no way to keep it a secret. There's a fundamental law of reality - if there's a secret so big that no one in the public should know about it - the public will eventually find out.
Secondly, none of it makes any sense. It's counterproductive to those with wealth and power to hide something that would inevitably give them even more wealth and power.
Additionally, your buddy would have a lot more credibility if he weren't some scam artist who wants to charge for the "information" he has.
Also, why do you lie to us in your posts? You claim that there is testimony from over 500 sources. First of all, this isn't even close to the truth. If you take Greer as being honest, he says he has deposed 100 witnesses NOT 500. He never uses that number, you made it up to try and sound more credible. He does say that they have identified 400 potential sources, but because no one cares, they don't have enough money to do the rest. So, you have lied to us to try and support your claim, and it's a bogus claim to begin with.
And you wonder why no one takes you seriously?
By the way, do you have a self-incinerating apartment? Do you keep a padlock on your fridge? Oh, and - how many copies of "Catcher In The Rye" do you own?
[QB]Lucy, are you an idiot? I'm just curious. I guess I am cause I actually took the time to read this whole post, and then I actually read some of the junk on that hoax you refer to as a credible website.[QB]
I personally do not consider myself an idiot, no. However, after extensively researching Dr. Greer's work I seriously don't understand how anyone with an I.Q. over their shoe size, can't come away from this at least acknowledging that there is something definately going on, even if your that skeptical and dense. Lets take a few of these witnesses as an example:
Captain Salas graduated from the Air Force Academy and spent seven years in active duty from 1964 to 1971. He also held positions at Martin Marietta and Rockwell and spent 21 years at the FAA. In the Air Force, he was an air traffic controller and a missile launch officer as well as an engineer on the Titan 3 missiles. He testifies about a UFO incident on the morning of March 16, 1967 where 16 nuclear missiles
simultaneously became non-operational at two different launch facilities immediately after guards saw UFOs hovering above. The guards could not identify these objects even though they were only about 30 feet away. The Air Force did an extensive investigation of the incidents and could not find a probable cause. At a debriefing about the incident, an officer from the Air Force Office of Special Investigations required him to sign a non-disclosure form and told him that he was not to talk about the event to anyone
including his family or other military staff. At a time during the Cold War when minor technical
anomalies were openly communicated amongst the staff, this incident was not, and to this day Captain Salas thinks this to be very unusual.
Now this is a man who was competent to be in control of nuclear tipped minute man missles (ICBM's) including having the responsability to launch them should he receive orders from the President, but he's not competent if he reports seeing a UFO.
Dr. Greer has in his possession Captain Salas's signed statement that this is true, the signed statements of 6 of the officers who were present that night and witnessed the UFO's, he has the reports filed by SAC Headquarters saying that "This incident was of extreme concern to SAC headquarters because they couldn?t explain it. Nobody could explain what happened, even after a lengthy investigation."
Dr. Greer also has Lt. Col. Arneson who spent 26 years in the USAF. He had an above top-secret SCI-TK (Special Compartmented Tango Kilo) clearance. He worked as a computer systems analyst for Boeing and was the Director of Logistics at Wright-Patterson AFB. At one point he was the cryptography officer for the entire Ramstein AFB in Germany and while there one day he received a classified message that said that a UFO had crashed in Spitsbergen Norway. While at Malmstrom AFB in Montana he again saw a message that said that a metallic circular UFO was seen hovering near the missile silos and that all the missiles
went off-line so that they could not be launched.
(Confirming Captain Salas's story)
Dr. Greer also has many official government documents regarding these and related UFO events at or near nuclear facilities.
Gordon Cooper was one of the original Mercury Seven astronauts and the last American to fly into space alone. In his testimony he recounts how he observed UFOs flying in the same formation as his fighter group over the skies of Germany These UFOs made maneuvers that could not be done by conventional fighters. He felt they must have be under intelligent control to communicate with one another due to the type of maneuvers they were mimicking. At another time, while filming conventional aircraft performing precision landings, a saucer flew directly overhead and landed ahead of them on a dry lakebed. The entire
event was filmed including detailed close-ups. The film was sent back to Washington and was never
returned.
Brigadier General Lovekin entered the military in 1958. In 1959 he joined the White House Army
Signaling Agency and served under President Eisenhower and then under President Kennedy with an above top secret clearance. He was familiar with Project Blue Book and related how that project documented highly scientific and specific UFO cases from very reliable sources. They reviewed photos taken from Air Force pilots, Marine Air Corps pilots, and some foreign pilots and multiple reports of radar lock-ons. He was also shown a piece of metallic debris taken from the Roswell crash. While working under President Eisenhower, he discovered that Eisenhower had a keen interest in UFO?s, but that Eisenhower came to realize that he had lost control of the subject.
Another witness, Colonel Charles Brown of Project Grudge also confirms that the really significant evidence was compartmented outside of Blue Book and in some cases even Grudge.
Mr. McDow entered the Navy in 1978 and gained a top-secret, Special Compartmented Intelligence (SCI) clearance with Zebra Stripes. (This means he was cleared to be in the command centre during major events, including Global Nuclear War). He was assigned to the Atlantic Operational Support Facility, Atlantic Command, then under Admiral Trane. Mr. McDow was present when a UFO was tracked by radar and seen by pilots visually moving at high speed up and down the Atlantic coast. The Command Center was put on Zebra alert and Admiral Trane gave the order to force down the UFO. Mr. McDow discusses threats, intimidation and confiscation of logbooks that occurred after the event.
Lance Corporal John Weygandt enlisted in the Marine Corp in 1994. Stationed in Peru to provide
perimeter security to a supposed drug-traffic radar installation, one night he and two other Sergeants were told to secure a possible crash site in the forest. When they arrived they saw a 20-meter egg-shaped UFO buried in the side of a gorge. He was called back from the craft, arrested, handcuffed and threatened and
abusively interrogated. One of the men told him that the interrogators basically did what they wanted and that they were not under Constitutional law. Weygandt believes that this UFO was shot down by a HAWK missile.
Dr. Greer possesses official government documents outlining cases of UFO's entering Peru's air space, the Air Force Base nearby scrambling SU-22's to intercept and attempts to destroy the vehicle.
For 6 years Mr. Callahan was the Division Chief of the Accidents and Investigations Branch of the FAA in Washington DC. In his testimony he tells about a 1986 Japanese Airlines 747 flight that was followed by a UFO for 31 minutes over the Alaskan skies. The UFO also trailed a United Airlines flight until the flight landed. There was visual confirmation as well as air-based and ground-based radar confirmation. The UFO was repoted to be the size of four 747's. This event was significant enough for the then FAA Administrator, Admiral Engen, to hold a briefing the next day where the FBI, CIA, President Reagan?s Scientific Study Team, as well as others attended. Videotape radar evidence, air traffic voice communications and paper reports were compiled and presented.
At the conclusion of this meeting, the attending CIA members instructed everyone present that ?the meeting never took place? and that ?this incident was never recorded?. Not realizing that there was additional evidence, they confiscated just the evidence presented, but Mr. Callahan was able to secure video tape and audio evidence of the event, the airline pilots reports, the official FAA reports, and hundreds of pages of computer data, including the radar tracings, all of which is in Dr. Greer's possession.
Thats 8 of the "NOW" over 500 witnesses.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by OBJRA10:
[QB]Here's how reality works. If this was real, there would be no way to keep it a secret. There's a fundamental law of reality - if there's a secret so big that no one in the public should know about it - the public will eventually find out.[QB]
I'm not talking about some hushed up secret that no one knows about. If you walk up to nearly anyone (except in famined country's possibly), anywhere, and mention the term "UFO", they know exactly what your talking about. If you've done any research into this topic at all, you'll know that there are thousands of concrete cases worldwide, most of which have been explained away as hallucinations, or swamp gas, or some ridiculously stupid reason like this. Cases involving 4 way confirmation (ground visual, ground radar, airborne visual, airborne radar), large amounts of witnesses (sometimes in the thousands), reports by highly credible people (police, airline pilots, military, etc), one of my personal favorites, videotaped and photographed events (of course as soon as someone is found to have hoaxed one, then they all must be hoaxes), and so on.
This subject isn't being kept a secret, its in plain site of all of us, and its even part of our culture (movies, music, TV). However, the truth about it IS being kept a secret, the advancements within it are being kept a secret, and the actions of the people controlling it are definately being kept secret. And more than this, our leaders and government and intelligence officials are being lied to and denied access to it.
Everyone thinks a secret this big can't be kept. The development of the Hydrogen Bomb was kept secret. The only reason it was let out, was because they started detonating them. The NRO (National Reconnasaince Organization) was kept secret for many years. This secret has been kept by releasing huge amounts of disinformation to the public, and by ridiculing it extensively, so people won't even talk about it for fear of being laughed at.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by OBJRA10:
[QB]Secondly, none of it makes any sense. It's counterproductive to those with wealth and power to hide something that would inevitably give them even more wealth and power.[QB]
Really. You want to explain to me how an over-unity energy device, that extracts vast amounts of energy from the baseline energy field around us, would be worth more to the multi-trillion dollar energy and transporation sector, when we're talking about free energy. Something that can't have a meter put on it, because it requires no fuel source. Something with no related repair costs because there are no moving parts. Something that will provide you with all the energy you could ever need, without transmission lines, with the associated cost being just buying the device itself.
Please explain this to me. I'm such an idiot, I just can't figure it out.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by OBJRA10:
[QB]Additionally, your buddy would have a lot more credibility if he weren't some scam artist who wants to charge for the "information" he has.[QB]
How would you go about it then? It costs money to travel around the globe filming these witnesses, it costs money to edit, assemble, and distribute large amounts of videos, books & DVDs to the public. I suppose you get all your music CDs and movies for free?
Do you have any idea how much it costs to launch a global campaign to disclose this information and get the public to support open congressional hearings on the matter? He provides a free fax service on his website so anyone can fax a letter into their Congressman, Senators or Presidents office. He held a National Press Conference May 9th 2001 at the Washington Press Centre, where 21 of his witnesses spoke about their experiences in front of 22 network cameras, live. Any idea what it would cost to host that? Add the fact he has foregone $250,000 a year as an emergency room doctor and Chairman of Emergency Medicine, since 1994.
The Disclosure Project is a 501(c)(3) non-profit organization that survives solely on donations and sales of educational materials. In order to educate the public, the government leaders, the media, and the scientific establishment, a well-co-ordinated and professional effort is needed, and that costs money. I'm not sure what world your living in, but you might want to seek professional help about your delusions.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by OBJRA10:
[QB]Also, why do you lie to us in your posts? You claim that there is testimony from over 500 sources. First of all, this isn't even close to the truth. If you take Greer as being honest, he says he has deposed 100 witnesses NOT 500. He never uses that number, you made it up to try and sound more credible. He does say that they have identified 400 potential sources, but because no one cares, they don't have enough money to do the rest. So, you have lied to us to try and support your claim, and it's a bogus claim to begin with.[QB]
You haven't been reading carefully. I never said there was testimony from 500 witnesses, I said Dr. Greer has over 500 witnesses. The amount of witnesses given at the website hasn't been updated since 2001. Since the May 9th Press Conference, 113 new witnesses have come forward. You consider all of this to be a bogus claim? Prove it.
I've been honest in all my posts, and I've done a good job of presenting a few facts. I've provided all the information anyone could want, to research this, which I have done extensively, hence the reason I support it. I've asked all the questions, and demanded the answers, and I have never been let down. Every single statement Dr. Greer makes, he backs up with evidence, and all his witnesses are asking for a subpeona, so they can testify in a court of law.
You present your personal opinions with nothing to back them up. You attack me every chance you get but provide no information supporting your claims.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by OBJRA10:
[QB]And you wonder why no one takes you seriously?[QB]
P.S. I think many people should be interested in this. Look at the number of people posting in the Hybrid Cars Thread.
I personally do not consider myself an idiot, no. However, after extensively researching Dr. Greer's work
<hr></blockquote>
I'm sorry, but buying into the shadow government idea, and shamelessly using a famous quote about those involved in the iran-contra affair to prove it, shows you haven't done real research.
More importantly, buying into this diverts your energy from exposing the real misinformation going on, such as with Iraq.
Also, I have yet to find validation that what they were doing was the largest webcast, as claimed by greer. In fact, it was madonna in 2000 with 9 MILLION VIEWERS.
So, no, you have not done your research. I don't have time to look into the rest of his claims, but you can figure it out on your own.
BTW: People like this take advantage of your beliefs of inferiority of knowledge. Do your own research. If you do, the truth will be revealed.
For example, anyone that says that Nuclear weapons are beyond the capacity of people to figure out on their own obviously did not pay attention in college.
ALSO, the way he charges is HIGHLY SUSPICIOUS. It is geared toward individuals and there is no info for organizational access. I'M TALKING ABOUT LIBRARIES. This is not how a legitimate scientific organization deals with information subscriptions. Libraries are the primary souce of revenue for legitimate research publications, esspecially so since we pay up to tens of thousands of dollars for some annual subscriptions. Neglecting libraries demonstrates a self-consciousness on the part of CSETI.
But they rely on subscriptions from people that do not know any better, since that is also the group that eats up the shit he's spewing.
[ 01-15-2003: Message edited by: giant ]</p>
<strong>
Of course I already know you're going to complain that he's in this for just "the money", but his organization is non-profit and all funds aquired are used towards press conferences, the making of these materials, and strategically putting this all together. You've probably spent a few thousand dollars on medical books over the years, or at least a few hundred on fictional books. I don't see the difference if it means educating yourself.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Look what I found:
[quote]Dr. Steven Greer, CSETI, Admits His Connection With Lawrence Rockefeller
Dr. Steven Greer, who in recent months flew to England to obtain a clear
vivid video tape of a disk pulling aerial manuevers from an English couple
and flew back to the US, refusing to show anyone the video, was on the
Starfire Radio Program on Cable News Network on Nov 31st. When asked about
the video tape, Greer stated that he had even better videos, but was saving
them for Project Starlight, and indicated that none of the
superlative videos would be released to the public. When asked how an
apparently "poor country doctor" could afford to flit around the world and
do all these things, Greer several times raised the fact of his friendship
with Lawrence Rockefeller. While not a surprising revelation, this public
statement ensures that Greer will now be counted among the ranks of those
participating in the global coverup of information related to this issue,
and adds his name to the long list of New World Order control factions
determined to keep the general public ignorant on the important issue of
interactions with other species.
<hr></blockquote>
<a href="http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/1996/dec/m13-003.shtml"; target="_blank">from here</a>
[quote]The following is a brief on Greer's move into the limelight.
Greer's early funding by Laurence Rockefeller was via Scott Jones' Human
Potential Foundation, who routed $20,000 in early 1994.
After Jones fell out with Laurence, Greer luckily was picked up, as cause
celebre' under New York socialite "Bootsie" Galbraith, wife of Evan
Galbraith, the Reagan era US Ambassador to France. Evan Galbraith is an
importer of "Moet" beverages. That association attracted further funding
by Laurence, which was routed via BSW Foundation in New York. BSW was/is
apparently a private foundation for dabbling modest monies of Daphne Wood,
another socialite and "New Ager".
In the JY Ranch gathering, which was organised by Scott Jones, funded by
Laurence in September 1993, via Human Potential Foundation, the idea was to
give Laurence a "big picture" of "UFOs", or the eager participants were
told as such. The participants were John Mack, Steven Greer, Bruce
Maccabee, Leo Sprinkle, Linda Moulton Howe, Keith thompson, Laurence, and a
few of his friends from New York City [not of UFO community], Scott Jones,
Henry Diamond [Laurence's attorney], Bob Teets, and Dick Farley. They
stayed in the ranch for two nights.
The main founders obtained the expected result and the enthusiasm they were
seeking for. The destiny of UFO community and its "peers" was given yet
another "boost" in the arm, in a well-thought, well-planned manner, and the
crowd continues to cheer.
<hr></blockquote>
<a href="http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/1997/apr/m29-003.shtml"; target="_blank">from here</a>
So it's possible for him to get alternative funding.
Found more:
[quote]If you are seriously keen to join in a venture with Steven Greer, and are
prepared to part with $2100, you better contact CSETI. Greer is offering
one week "special event in England" from July 22-28, 1997. During which you
would have a taste of what CSETI is all about. But, beware should you
decide to cancel, you would be loosing $100.
Previously I wrote about Greer's funding via Laurence Rockefeller through
BSW Foundation.
BSW stands for;
1. "Bootsie" Galbraith - whose husband was the US Ambassador to France
during Reagan's term in the office - Evan Galbraith - who in turn is the
brother of the famous Economist. Bootsie has had a long term interest in
alternative health methods, and still does. Luarence, in many occasions,
and privately funded many of Bootsie's own projects, dealing with
alternative health methods.
2. "Sandy" Houghton - who is Sandra Hougton, of the famous publishing
family "Houghton Mifflin". She is another wealthy woman, that was close to
Bootsie. Sandy is now divorced, and goes under the name Sandra Wright. She
is a total credulous believer in all types of New Age and fanatic UFO
claims. She is a staunch supporter of stories like; Meir, Mexico sightings,
Bob Dean, crop cirlces, and maitains her support of Greer.
Bootsie and Sandy for a while worked closely on the UFO briefing project,
which Laurence partly funded the BSW for it, a totall sum of approximately
$100,000. The briefing paper, better known intially as "Matrix of UFO
Beliefs" was the brainchild of Dick Farley, and was an investigative and
analytical tool, that according to Farley had its genesis during Farley's
20 years of active inquiry into 'UFO' phenomena. The main contributors to
Farley's thinking were J. Allen Hyneck [1981-1984], and Jacques Vallee [who
independently asked to brief Gibbons in the White House during this entire
affair]. Farley at that time was hired as the director of project
development for the Human potential Foundation (HPF), chaired by Senator
Clairborne Pell, a close friend of Laurence. HPF's president was C.B.
"Scott" Jones.
The Matrix of UFO Belief was not designed to suggest to Bill Clinton or his
advisors what "all the UFO might be". Eventually this briefing paper was
delivered to Gibbons in mid-May 1993. But, during the process of this
document Bootsie, who is more credulous, and not as naive as Sandy had a
falling out, with Sandy. Consequently Sandy was removed from the project.
One issue of this despute between Sandy and Bootsie was Steven Greer, who
had received funds on the promise that he could produce actual witnesses to
the "government cover-up". Greer enjoyed the funding and delivered nothing
at that time. Sandy a close friend and supporter of Greer remained faithful
to Greer, and she still is. Bob Dean too, enjoyed some funding in this
between. Greer whilst working for them, at that time misrepresented himself
as Laurence's representative. Henry Diamond, Laurence's attorney soon put a
stop to it, and cut off any further funding to Greer.
The entire operation at the end produced no results, in fact it was a sham.
Another individual who acted as a consutant for a while during the
preparation of this briefing document was Bob Durant. Durant still remains
a friend to Sandy, and has no contact with Bootsie.
Sandy Wright still remains active in the UFO field and is closly involved
with Greer's activities.
Briefing document, as mentioned before, produced no results, and was
ignored by all its recepients. After Greer was exposed he took an
antagonistic position, further alienating himself from his sponsors.
3. Daphne Wood, a secretary working in a small office was the "W" component
of the BSW. She since has left BSW and another woman has taken her place.
Wood was never one of the prime movers in this scenario.
In fact it was Sandy Wright who recently funded Greer's recent meeting in
Washington. Edgar Mitchell from the Institute of Neotic Sciences made a
small contribution. Nevrtheless, Mitchell is not one of Greers "witnesses".
Although, he was present at the meeting.
But let us have a closer look at some of Greer's "witnesses", who are
prepared to forego their secrecy agreement with the US Government and step
forward;
1. Commander Graham Bethune (US Navy retired): Bethune had some kind of
sighting many years back. He is a staunch believer that all the planets are
inhibited by invisible beings.
2. Dona Hare; Claims to be a former NASA employee. Checks with NASA proved
otherwise. Hare claims that NASA removed the traces all of UFOs on
photographs before being released to public.
3. Sgt. Charles Sorrells: A former military airport tower operator, who was
stationed at one time at Edwards AFB. Sorrells claims that he saw six UFOs
over the base in 1965, and scramble was made, but could not intercept the
UFOs. There is nothing new in his claims, many researchers do in fact
possess documents released through the FOIA, containing such cases.
4. Col. Swatecki: USAF, was stationed in Strategic Air Command at Loring
AFB when UFO hovered over the base for many hours. Loring had been closed
for many years now. Additionally, once more several records are available
on the case.
5. Major George Filer USAF (retired). I know Filer. Filer claims to have
knowledge of the killing of an alien at Fort Dix (McGuire AFB). This is an
old [late] Leonard Stringfield story. Filer also believes that the US
Government possesses Nazi saucers that have been flying around for almost
50 years!
6. There is also a Naval officer [asked not to be named] who claims that a
UFO was tracked on radar on the East Coast of the US sometimes around 1980.
In addition to these, there are another group of Greer's witnesses, whose
stories are so hillarious and humourous that I'd rather leave them out at
this juncture.
Greer was given a piece of a metal, and was made to believe it is a piece
of a UFO. He confided this to a few of his close associates in strict
confidence. He was quite excited about it for a while, and even took a trip
to Pentagon. A Pentagon source told me that after examining the piece there
was nothing unearthly about it. Greer, after that meeting no longer spoke
about his discovery. He even, apparently removed the traces of all written
references to the metal from his press briefing.
The questionable point is that "IF" Greer possessed the "smoking gun"
witnesses - as it were - he wouldn't have to keep threatening the US
Government, having all secret meetings, or keep trying to raise money to
find more witnesses.
<hr></blockquote>
<a href="http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/1997/may/m07-026.shtml"; target="_blank">from here</a>
Sorry, but I have more:
[quote]he following was placed on the Fund's web site on 6 June 1997 (D-Day
Anniversary, incidentally):
--Greer/CSETI Confronted -- Dr. Steven Greer, M.D., leader of CSETI (the
Center for the Study of Extraterrestrial Intelligence) has improperly
published and distributed scores of copies of a preliminary draft of the
BEST AVAILABLE EVIDENCE briefing document. He knew it was original material
of the UFO Research Coalition which was protected by copyright law against
unauthorized reproduction.
His claim that his version of the document was not copyrighted is pointless,
since all drafts of a copyrighted work are automatically protected by
copyright law. His claim that he was told that none of the versions would be
copyrighted is without basis.
Greer removed the original cover of the document and substituted one of his
own that states that he and the CSETI "Starlight Team" are responsible for
the "concept, title, strategy and case selection." In reality, neither Greer
nor CSETI had any involvement at any stage in the preparation of the genuine
document.
Greer's pirated version of the document retained the name of the true author
-- Don Berliner -- to avoid accusations of plagiarism. Berliner states
emphatically that he received no input from Greer or any of his associates
at any stage of the planning and writing of the document. In particular, Greer's
claim that his "Starlight Team" (whatever that is!) selected
the cases summarized in the document is completely empty, as Berliner
insists he, alone, chose the cases for the document. And he finds the
implication that he worked with Greer and CSETI to be highly insulting, and
damaging to his reputation as a
professional writer.
While Greer publicly tries to give the impression that he is
a moderate, logical spokesman for the UFO field, a careful
reading of his own writings makes it clear that he actually represents the
most extreme faction of the private UFO community. He claims to be a
scientist and a researcher, but has never presented any evidence to back up
either claim. The following statements from his 1994 CSETI Briefing Document
(no relation to the document in question), strongly suggest that Greer
thinks he is in direct and extensive communication with aliens. How else
could he have "learned" the following?
"More than one extraterrestrial civilization is
represented in the current activities involving
earth."
"These extraterrestrial civilizations are working
in concert and not competitively ... ."
"These beings have bases within this solar
system ...."
"A Plan is in place to allow for gradually broader
and deeper contact with human society ...."
If Dr. Greer denies that he has learned all of this directly
from aliens, how does he explain the content of these quotes from his own
writing?
For an independent view of Greer, see "Alien Brothers, Come On Down!",in the
September, 1994, issue of OUTSIDE, an outdoors magazine. For a xerox copy of
the article by Alex Heard, send a self-addressed, stamped 9" X 12" envelope
and one dollar to the Fund for UFO Research, PO Box 277, Mt. Rainier, MD 20712.
We leave it to the rational members of the private UFO community to draw
their own conclusions.
(FUFOR - 6/5/97)--
<hr></blockquote>
What can I say?
[ 01-15-2003: Message edited by: giant ]</p>
MD , have any expertise in the field of energy and UFO. I have spent 14 years of my life to study medecine, it do not give me enough times to learn others sciences, even if i am interested as a amator.
Understanding physics requires to have the basic and fundamental knowledge, a knowledge that you can hardly learn otherwise than in school or universisty.
Sorry, Lucys trip, but nobody here seems ready to follow you. You are free to continue this thread, but we are free to say what we think of it.
[quote] "More than one extraterrestrial civilization is
represented in the current activities involving
earth."
"These extraterrestrial civilizations are working
in concert and not competitively ... ."
"These beings have bases within this solar
system ...."
"A Plan is in place to allow for gradually broader
and deeper contact with human society ...." <hr></blockquote>
It's plain ridiculous.
UFO , means that there is a mysterious phenomena. . UFO are mysterious flying object, that science cannot explain. No more no less. Serious scientist who deal with these phenomenum are very cautious.
<strong>The questions that Dr. Greer asks are cogent ones. Any one who thinks that our government has been honest concerning the UFO question is a fool. If you think the possibility of ET life is ridiculous you have not studied the Drake equation, nor anything else concerning these phenomena.</strong><hr></blockquote>
'our government' is a conceptual entity in the context of 'UFO.' It is not practical nor is it realistic.
ET life has nothing to do with the 'UFO' cultural phenomenon. Didn't anyone here ever take a biology class?
The whole UFO thing is a cultural phenomenon. It has a very clear history and evolution (think the evolution of the 'alien' from the Hills to 'Communion') and readily apparent influences. Even the advent of the 'flying saucer' was a widespead misinterpretation of a pilot's reports. He said they skipped across the sky like saucers on water, and the press picked up on 'flying saucers,' an idea that had been put before in fiction, possibly by Raymond Palmer.
Ah, Raymon Palmer. The start of it all. Here's a good history of the UFO phenomenon:
[quote]The Man Who Invented Flying Saucers
by John A. Keel
North America's "Bigfoot" was nothing more than an Indian legend until
a zoologist named Ivan T. Sanderson began collecteing contemporary
sightings of the creature in the early 1950s, publishing the reports
in a series of popular magazine articles. He turned the tall, hairy
biped into a household word, just as British author Rupert T. Gould
rediscovered sea serpents in the 1930s and, through his radio
broadcasts, articles, and books, brought Loch Ness to the attention of
the world. Another writer named Vincent Gaddis originated the Bermuda
Triangle in his 1965 book, Invisible Horizons: Strange Mysteries of
the Sea. Sanderson and Charles Berlitz later added to the Triangle
lore, and rewriting their books became a cottage industry among hack
writers in the United States.
Charles Fort put bread on the table of generations of science fiction
writers when, in his 1931 book Lo!, he assembled the many reports of
objects and people strangely transposed in time and place, and coined
the term "teleportation." And it took a politician named Ignatius
Donnelly to revive lost Atlantis and turn it into a popular subject
(again and again and again). (1)
But the man responsible for the most well-known of all such modern
myths -- flying saucers -- has somehow been forgotten. Before the
first flying saucer was sighted in 1947, he suggested the idea to the
American public. Then he converted UFO reports from what might have
been a Silly Season phenomenon into a subject, and kept that subject
alive during periods of total public disinterest.
His name was Raymond A. Palmer.
Born in 1911, Ray Palmer suffered severe injuries that left him
dwarfed in stature and partially crippled. He had a difficult
childhood because of his infirmities and, like many isolated young men
in those pre-television days, he sought escape in "dime novels," cheap
magazines printed on coarse paper and filled with lurid stories
churned out by writers who were paid a penny a word. He became an avid
science fiction fan, and during the Great Depression of the 1930s he
was active in the world of fandom -- a world of mimeographed fanzines
and heavy correspondence. (Science fiction fandom still exists and is
very well organized with well-attended annual conventions and lavishly
printed fanzines, some of which are even issued weekly.) In 1930, he
sold his first science fiction story, and in 1933 he created the Jules
Verne Prize Club which gave out annual awards for the best
achievements in sci-fi. A facile writer with a robust imagination,
Palmer was able to earn many pennies during the dark days of the
Depression, undoubtedly buoyed by his mischievous sense of humor, a
fortunate development motivated by his unfortunate physical problems.
Pain was his constant companion.
In 1938, the Ziff-Davis Publishing Company in Chicago purchased a
dying magazine titled Amazing Stories. It had been created in 1929 by
the inestimable Hugo Gernsback, who is generally acknowledged as the
father of modern science fiction. Gernsback, an electrical engineer,
ran a small publishing empire of magazines dealing with radio and
technical subjects. (he also founded Sexology, a magazine of soft-core
pornography disguised as science, which enjoyed great success in a
somewhat conservative era.) It was his practice to sell -- or even
give away -- a magazine when its circulation began to slip.
Although Amazing Stories was one of the first of its kind, its
readership was down to a mere 25,000 when Gernsback unloaded it on
Ziff-Davis. William B. Ziff decided to hand the editorial reins to the
young science fiction buff from Milwaukee, Wisconsin. At the age of
28, Palmer found his life's work.
Expanding the pulp magazine to 200 pages (and as many as 250 pages in
some issues), Palmer deliberately tailored it to the tastes of teenage
boys. He filled it with nonfiction features and filler items on
science and pseudo-science in addition to the usual formula short
stories of BEMs (Bug-Eyed Monsters) and beauteous maidens in distress.
Many of the stories were written by Palmer himself under a variety of
pseudonyms such as Festus Pragnell and Thorton Ayre, enabling him to
supplement his meager salary by paying himself the usual penny-a-word.
His old cronies from fandom also contributed stories to the magazine
with a zeal that far surpassed their talents.
In fact, of the dozen or so science magazines then being sold on the
newsstands, Amazing Stories easily ranks as the very worst of the lot.
Its competitors, such as Startling Stories, Thrilling Wonder Stories,
Planet Stories and the venerable Astounding (now renamed Analog)
employed skilled, experienced professional writers like Ray Bradbury,
Isaac Asimov, and L. Ron Hubbard (who later created Dianetics and
founded Scientology). Amazing Stories was garbage in comparison and
hardcore sci-fi fans tended to sneer at it. (2)
The magazine might have limped through the 1940s, largely ignored by
everyone, if not for a single incident. Howard Browne, a television
writer who served as Palmer's associate editor in those days, recalls:
"early in the 1940s, a letter came to us from Dick Shaver purporting
to reveal the "truth" about a race of freaks, called "Deros," living
under the surface of the earth. Ray Palmer read it, handed it to me
for comment. I read a third of it, tossed it in the waste basket. Ray,
who loved to show his editors a trick or two about the business,
fished it out of the basket, ran it in Amazing, and a flood of mail
poured in from readers who insisted every word of it was true because
they'd been plagued by Deros for years. (3)
Actually, Palmer had accidentally tapped a huge, previously
unrecognized audience. Nearly every community has at least one person
who complains constantly to the local police that someone -- usually a
neighbor -- is aiming a terrible ray gun at their house or apartment.
This ray, they claim, is ruining their health, causing their plants to
die, turning their bread moldy, making their hair and teeth fall out,
and broadcasting voices into their heads. [To the Reichian concept of
DOR (Dead Orgone), stir in the bizarre sci-fi tales of "Alex
Constantine," and Kathy Kasten, et al, for a latter-day equivalent of
the Shaverian Dero Ray-Gun Attack mythos -B:.B:.] Psychiatrists are
very familiar with these "ray" victims and relate the problem with
paranoid-schizophrenia. For the most part, these paranoiacs are
harmless and usually elderly. Occasionally, however, the voices they
hear urge them to perform destructive acts, particularly arson. They
are a distrustful lot, loners by nature, and very suspicious of
everyone, including the government and all figures of authority. In
earlier times, they thought they were hearing the voice of God and/or
the Devil. Today they often blame the CIA or space beings for their
woes. They naturally gravitate to eccentric causes and organizations
which reflect their own fears and insecurities, advocating bizarre
political philosophies and reinforcing their peculiar belief systems.
Ray Palmer unintentionally gave thousands of these people focus to
their lives.
Shaver's long, rambling letter claimed that while he was welding (4)
he heard voices which explained to him how the underground Deros were
controlling life on the surface of the earth through the use of
fiendish rays. Palmer rewrote the letter, making a novelette out of
it, and it was published in the March 1945 issue under the title: "I
Remember Lemuria -- by Richard Shaver."
The Shaver Mystery was born.
-=oOo=-
Somehow the news of Shaver's discovery quickly spread beyond science
fiction circles and people who had never before bought a pulp magazine
were rushing to their local newsstands. The demand for Amazing Stories
far exceeded the supply and Ziff-Davis had to divert paper supplies
(remember there were still wartime shortages) from other magazines so
they could increase the press run of AS.
"Palmer traveled to Pennsylvania to talk to Shaver," Howard Browne
later recalled, "found him sitting on reams of stuff he'd written
about the Deros, bought every bit of it and contracted for more. I
thought it was the sickest crap I'd run into. Palmer ran it and
doubled the circulation of Amazing within four months."
By the end of 1945, Amazing Stories was selling 250,000 copies per
month, an amazing circulation for a science fiction pulp magazine.
Palmer sat up late at night, rewriting Shaver's material and writing
other short stories about the Deros under pseudonyms. Thousands of
letters poured into the office. Many of them offered supporting
"evidence" for the Shaver stories, describing strange objects they had
seen in the sky and strange encounters they had had with alien beings.
It seemed that many thousands of people were aware of the existence of
some distinctly non-terrestrial group in our midst. Paranoid fantasies
were mixed with tales that had the uncomfortable ring of truth. The
"Letters-to-the-Editor" section was the most interesting part of the
publication. Here is a typical contribution from the issue for June
1946:
Sirs:
I flew my last combat mission on May 26 [1945] when I was shot up over
Bassein and ditched my ship in Ramaree roads off Chedubs Island. I was
missing five days. I requested leave at Kashmere (sic). I and Capt.
(deleted by request) left Srinagar and went to Rudok then through the
Khese pass to the northern foothills of the Karakoram. We found what
we were looking for. We knew what we were searching for.
For heaven's sake, drop the whole thing! You are playing with
dynamite. My companion and I fought our way out of a cave with
submachine guns. I have two 9" scars on my left arm that came from
wounds given me in the cave when I was 50 feet from a moving object of
any kind and in perfect silence. The muscles were nearly ripped out.
How? I don't know. My friend has a hole the size of a dime in his
right bicep. It was seared inside. How we don't know. But we both
believe we know more about the Shaver Mystery than any other pair. You
can imagine my fright when I picked up my first copy of Amazing
Stories and see you splashing words about the subject.
The identity of the author of this letter was withheld by request.
Later Palmer revealed his name: Fred Lee Crisman. He had inadvertently
described the effects of a laser beam -- even though the laser wasn't
invented until years later. Apparently Crisman was obsessed with Deros
and death rays long before Kenneth Arnold sighted the "first" UFO in
June 1947.
In September 1946, Amazing Stories published a short article by W.C.
Hefferlin, "Circle-Winged Plane," describing experiments with a
circular craft in 1927 in San Francisco. Shaver's (Palmer's)
contribution to that issue was a 30,000 word novelette, "Earth Slaves
to Space," dealing with spaceships that regularly visited the Earth to
kidnap humans and haul them away to some other planet. Other stories
described amnesia, an important element in the UFO reports that still
lay far in the future, and mysterious men who supposedly served as
agents for those unfriendly Deros.
A letter from army lieutenant Ellis L. Lyon in the September 1946
issue expressed concern over the psychological impact of the Shaver
Mystery.
What I am worried about is that there are a few, and perhaps quite
large number of readers who may accept this Shaver Mystery as being
founded on fact, even as Orson Welles put across his invasion from
Mars, via radio some years ago. It is of course, impossible for the
reader to sift out in your "Discussions" and "Reader Comment"
features, which are actually letters from readers and which are
credited to an Amazing Stories staff writer, whipped up to keep alive
interest in your fictional theories. However, if the letters are
generally the work of readers, it is distressing to see the reaction
you have caused in their muddled brains. I refer to the letters from
people who have "seen" the exhaust trails of rocket ships or "felt"
the influence of radiations from underground sources.
Palmer assigned artists to make sketches of objects described by
readers and disc-shaped flying machines appeared on the covers of his
magazine long before June 1947. So we can note that a considerable
number of people -- millions -- were exposed to the flying saucer
concept before the national news media was even aware of it. Anyone
who glanced at the magazines on a newsstand and caught a glimpse of
the saucers-adorned Amazing Stories cover had the image implanted in
his subconscious. In the course of the two years between march 1945
and June 1947, millions of Americans had seen at least one issue of
Amazing Stories and were aware of the Shaver Mystery with all of its
bewildering implications. Many of these people were out studying the
empty skies in the hopes that they, like other Amazing Stories
readers, might glimpse something wondrous. World War II was over and
some new excitement was needed. Raymond Palmer was supplying it --
much to the alarm of Lt. Lyon and Fred Crisman.
-=oOo=-
Aside from Palmer's readers, two other groups were ready to serve as
cadre for the believers. About 1,500 members of Tiffany Thayer's
Fortean Society knew that weird aerial objects had been sighted
throughout history and some of them were convinced that this planet
was under surveillance by beings from another world. Tiffany Thayer
was rigidly opposed to Franklin Roosevelt and loudly proclaimed that
almost everything was a government conspiracy, so his Forteans were
fully prepared to find new conspiracies hidden in the forthcoming UFO
mystery. They would become instant experts, willing to educate the
press and public when the time came. The second group were
spiritualists and students of the occult, headed by Dr. Meade Layne,
who had been chatting with the space people at seances through trance
mediums and Ouija boards. They knew the space ships were coming and
hardly surprised when "ghost rockets" were reported over Europe in
1946. (5) Combined, these three groups represented a formidable
segment of the population.
On June 24, 1947, Kenneth Arnold made his famous sighting of a group
of "flying saucers" over Mt. Rainier, and in Chicago Ray Palmer
watched in astonishment as the newspaper clippings poured in from
every state. The things that he had been fabricating for his magazine
were suddenly coming true!
For two weeks, the newspapers were filled with UFO reports. Then they
tapered off and the Forteans howled "Censorship!" and "Conspiracy!"
But dozens of magazine writers were busy compiling articles on this
new subject and their pieces would appear steadily during the next
year. One man, who had earned his living writing stories for the pulp
magazines in the 1930s, saw the situation as a chance to break into
the "slicks" (better quality magazines printed on glossy or "slick"
paper). Although he was 44 years old at the time of Pearl Harbor, he
served as a Captain in the marines until he was in a plane accident.
Discharged as a Major (it was the practice to promote officers one
grade when they retired), he was trying to resume his writing career
when Ralph Daigh, an editor at True magazine, assigned him to
investigate the flying saucer enigma. Thus, at the age of 50, Donald
E. Keyhhoe entered Never-Never-Land. His article, "Flying Saucers Are
Real," would cause a sensation, and Keyhoe would become an instant UFO
personality.
That same year, Palmer decided to put out an all-flying saucer issue
of Amazing Stories. Instead, the publisher demanded that he drop the
whole subject after, according to Palmer, two men in Air Force
uniforms visited him. Palmer decided to publish a magazine of his own.
Enlisting the aid of Curtis Fuller, editor of a flying magazine, and a
few other friends, he put out the first issue of Fate in the spring of
1948. A digest-sized magazine printed on the cheapest paper, Fate was
as poorly edited as Amazing Stories and had no impact on the reading
public. But it was the only newsstand periodical that carried UFO
reports in every issue. The Amazing Stories readership supported the
early issues wholeheartedly.
In the fall of 1948, the first flying saucer convention was held at
the Labor Temple on 14th Street in New York City. Attended by about
thirty people, most of whom were clutching the latest issue of Fate,
the meeting quickly dissolved into a shouting match. (6) Although the
flying saucer mystery was only a year old, the side issues of
government conspiracy and censorship already dominated the situation
because of their strong emotional appeal. The U.S. Air Force had been
sullenly silent throughout 1948 while, unbeknownst to the UFO
advocates, the boys at Wright- Patterson Air Force Base in Ohio were
making a sincere effort to untangle the mystery.
When the Air Force investigation failed to turn up any tangible
evidence (even though the investigators accepted the extraterrestrial
theory) General Hoyt Vandenburg, Chief of the Air Force and former
head of the CIA, ordered a negative report to release to the public.
The result was Project Grudge, hundreds of pages of irrelevant
nonsense that was unveiled around the time True magazine printed
Keyhoe's pro-UFO article. Keyhoe took this personally, even though his
article was largely a rehash of Fort's book, and Ralph Daigh had
decided to go with the extraterrestrial hypothesis because it seemed
to be the most commercially acceptable theory (that is, it would sell
magazines).
-=oOo=-
Palmer's relationship with Ziff-Davis was strained now that he was
publishing his own magazine. "When I took over from Palmer, in 1949,"
Howard Browne said, "I put an abrupt end to the Shaver Mystery --
writing off over 7,000 dollars worth of scripts."
Moving to Amherst, Wisconsin, Palmer set up his own printing plant and
eventually he printed many of those Shaver stories in his Hidden
Worlds series. As it turned out, postwar inflation and the advent of
television was killing the pulp magazine market anyway. In the fall of
1949, hundreds of pulps suddenly ceased publication, putting thousands
of writers and editors out of work. Amazing Stories has often changed
hands since but is still being published, and is still paying its
writers a penny a word. (7)
For some reason known only to himself, Palmer chose not to use his
name in Fate. Instead, a fictitious "Robert N. Webster" was listed as
editor for many years. Palmer established another magazine, Search, to
compete with Fate. Search became a catch-all for inane letters and
occult articles that failed to meet Fate's low standards.
Although there was a brief revival of public and press interest in
flying saucers following the great wave of the summer of 1952, the
subject largely remained in the hands of cultists, cranks, teenagers,
and housewives who reproduced newspaper clippings in little
mimeographed journals and looked up to Palmer as their fearless
leader.
In June, 1956, a major four-day symposium on UFOs was held in
Washington, D.C. It was unquestionably the most important UFO affair
of the 1950s and was attended by leading military men, government
officials and industrialists. Men like William Lear, inventor of the
Lear Jet [Yup, John "The Horrible Truth" Lear's dad -B:.B:.], and
assorted generals, admirals and former CIA heads freely discussed the
UFO "problem" with the press. Notably absent were Ray Palmer and
Donald Keyhoe. One of the results of the meetings was the founding of
the National Investigation Committee on Aerial Phenomena (NICAP) by a
physicist named Townsend Brown. Although the symposium received
extensive press coverage at the time, it was subsequently censored out
of UFO history by the UFO cultists themselves -- primarily because
they had not participated in it. (8)
The American public was aware of only two flying saucer personalities,
contactee George Adamski, a lovable rogue with a talent for obtaining
publicity, and Donald Keyhoe, a zealot who howled "Coverup!" and was
locked in mortal combat with Adamski for newspaper coverage. Since
Adamski was the more colorful (he had ridden a saucer to the moon), he
was usually awarded more attention. The press gave him the title of
"astronomer" (he lived in a house on Mount Palomar where a great
telescope was in operation), while Keyhoe attacked him as "the
operator of a hamburger stand." Ray Palmer tried to remain aloof of
the warring factions, so naturally, some of them turned against him.
The year 1957 was marked by several significant developments. There
was another major flying saucer wave. Townsend Brown's NICAP
floundered and Keyhoe took it over. And Ray Palmer launched a new
newsstand publication called Flying Saucers From Other Worlds. In the
early issues he hinted that he knew some important "secret." After
tantalizing his readers for months, he finally revealed that UFOs came
from the center of the earth and the phrase "From Other Worlds" was
dropped from the title. His readers were variously enthralled,
appalled, and galled by the revelation.
For seven years, from 1957 to 1964, ufology in the United States was
in total limbo. This was the Dark Age. Keyhoe and NICAP were buried in
Washington, vainly tilting at windmills and trying to initiate a
congressional investigation into the UFO situation. [It is therefore
with Great Thanksgiving in Our Hearts that we applaud the Fine Efforts
of CSETI's Steve Greer to carry on this proud -- albeit amusingly
Quixotic -- tradition, some four decades later. -B:.B:.]
A few hundred UFO believers clustered around Coral Lorenzen's Aerial
Phenomena Research Organization (APRO). And about 2,000 teenagers
bought Flying Saucers from newsstands each month. Palmer devoted much
space to UFO clubs, information exchanges, and letters-to-the-editor.
So it was Palmer, and Palmer alone, who kept the subject alive during
the Dark Age and lured new youngsters into ufology. He published his
strange books about Deros, and ran a mail-order business selling the
UFO books that had been published after various waves of the 1950s.
His partners in the Fate venture bought him out, so he was able to
devote his full time to his UFO enterprises.
Palmer had set up a system similar to sci-fi fandom, but with himself
as the nucleus. He had come a long way since his early days and the
Jules Verne Prize Club. He had been instrumental in inventing a whole
system of belief, a frame of reference -- the magical world of
Shaverism and flying saucers -- and he had set himself up as the king
of that world. Once the belief system had been set up it became
self-perpetuating. The people beleaguered by mysterious rays were
joined by the wishful thinkers who hoped that living, compassionate
beings existed out there beyond the stars. They didn't need any real
evidence. The belief itself was enough to sustain them.
When a massive new UFO wave -- the biggest one in U.S. history --
struck in 1964 and continued unabated until 1968, APRO and NICAP were
caught unawares and unprepared to deal with renewed public interest.
Palmer increased the press run of Flying Saucers and reached out to a
new audience. Then in the 1970s, a new Dark Age began. October 1973
produced a flurry of well- publicized reports and then the doldrums
set in. NICAP strangled in its own confusion and dissolved in a puddle
of apathy, along with scores of lesser UFO organizations. Donald
Keyhoe, a very elder statesman, lives in seclusion in Virginia. Most
of the hopeful contactees and UFO investigators of the 1940s and 50s
have passed away. Palmer's Flying Saucers quietly self-destructed in
1975, but he continued with Search until his death in 1977. Richard
Shaver is gone but the Shaver Mystery still has a few adherents. Yet
the sad truth is that none of this might have come about if Howard
Browne hadn't scoffed at that letter in that dingy editorial office in
that faraway city so long ago.<hr></blockquote>
[ 01-16-2003: Message edited by: giant ]</p>
<strong>The questions that Dr. Greer asks are cogent ones. Any one who thinks that our government has been honest concerning the UFO question is a fool. If you think the possibility of ET life is ridiculous you have not studied the Drake equation, nor anything else concerning these phenomena.</strong><hr></blockquote>
There's a big difference between the possibility of extraterrestrial life and the possibility of extraterrestrial visitors.
There's a big difference between acknowledging that, by the strict literal meaning of "UFO", that yes, there have been objects that appear to fly that have not been identified, and in believing that UFOs, in the popular sense of alien spacecraft flying around in our Earthly skies, exist.
There's a big difference between acknowledging that our governments have lied and do lie to us, and believing in specific gigantic conspiracies to hide specific interpretations of what truths lurk behind those lies.
There's a big difference between realizing that powerful business interests like the oil industry can, and probably have at one time or another, worked to suppress technology that might threaten their profit margins, and believing that a widespread, hugely cooperative rather than competitive, partnership of governments, wealthy individuals, and corporations can single-mindedly pursue a unified agenda spanning over decades and generations, dedicated to the suppression of specific technologies and information about alien visitors, with the power to either suppress or discredit any piece of information that THEY do not want released, over an enormous and comprehensive range of media outlets, leaving nothing behind but blurry photographs, videos with unimpressive streaks of light, incomplete plans for technological marvels, and earnest personal testimonials with little or no hard evidence to back them up.
Do I believe that alien life is possible? Certainly! In fact, I think it's very likely.
Do I believe that alien life has ever visited the Earth? From what we know of physics today, this seems a daunting task for an alien race to undertake. But given technological and scientific advancement beyond what we humans currently know, or simply given aliens with a lot of plain old determination and patience, alien visitation certainly seems plausible.
Has alien visitation actually happened? Who knows? If it has, is there much relationship between popular UFO beliefs and such visitations? Probably not! Do we need to believe in alien visitation to explain the pyramids, the Nazca lines, the atomic bomb, etc.? Not at all. Human ingenuity is more than enough to explain any of those things.
Do I believe that our governments are hiding more than a few things from us? Oh, yeah. Do I believe that some shadowy extra-governmental, super-governmental conspiracy of the rich and powerful has systematically managed to suppress and/or discredit amazing technologies and alien visitations for over fifty years? No, I can't say that I'm willing to buy that.
In fact, I think it's odd that the same people who often won't credit humans with enough intelligence to build pyramids on their own, simultaneously believe that secretive little groups of these same limited human beings are capable of the incredible unflagging competence, devotion, and time-tested unity of purpose as would be needed to pull off the amazing, multi-generational conspiracies of suppression of knowledge and technology that the UFO conspiracist view of the world requires.
[ 01-16-2003: Message edited by: shetline ]</p>
<strong>Then what is wrong with the questions he asks? I don't agree with his theories, nor all of his "evidence" of conspiracy, but without openess on these issues the truth wil never be found. You guys are painting a complete caricuature of people who have interest in the UFO phenomena. Oh yeah, everyone who takes UFO reports seriously believes Adamski and in crop circles and worldwide coverups.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Two posts up I have posted the history of the UFO phenomenon. Read it.