While you can debate the level of user acceptance for Windows 8 (it's a on one level a radical change to the UI that will certainly divide opinion (already has clearly!) it's not correct to say that it will not be ready, indeed you may not be aware but there is already a very reliable Consumer preview, that I (and many others) have been using for a month or more. While still 'beta' - it works well (extremely quickly with great boot times, and is also very easy to use in a 'traditional' desktop - as well as a tablet / touch 1st device. I don't usually bother responding to posts on here as they are typically so rabidly one sided in their views (both for an against Apple) that it's hardly worth the bother of trying to put a balanced view - but in this instance I just wanted to be clear on a fact, good, bad or great Windows 8 is on track and already very useable.
I couldn't agree more. For those of you that haven't used the Windows 8 beta (or as in my case watched someone else use it), don't be so quick to knock it. I'm sure Tim Cook isn't so stupid as to think that Windows 8 isn't a threat to Apple's continued growth. Apple needs to up the ante. IMO it is time for Apple to improve Mail, Pages, and Server. They also need to make a "mac mini pro" that can be tailored for the business market. Apple has developer momentum. This is a great time to make a move on Microsoft. While Microsoft is focused on tablets and phones, Apple should be gunning for MS core business with a surprise attack.
The reason this is important is because at some point Apple needs software developers to make business tools for the Mac. It sucks when I need software and it isn't available in a Mac version. I own 3 Macs and 1 Dell. The Dell hasn't been turned on in so long that the clock battery is dead.
Do you think MS will remove the feature (CTRL ALT DEL) from Windows 8? If not how will they build it into their "new" tablet? If you can't fix it feature it!!!
Microsoft will evolve. Soon, it will be "multi touch gesture to reboot"
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightknight
Isn't that Apple?
Yes. If you ignore the fact that Microsoft has more software titles and sold more copies of its software than every application Apple has ever released.
Actually, I was thinking of Star Trek (original series, of course) but I didn't want to say so fearing a flood of corrections about how the system on the Enterprise synthesized the food…and probably the plates and trays, too.
The point I was trying to make is that things like the Mac, iPod, iPhone, and iPad weren't just better versions of things that already existed. They were things that were re-envisoned and reinvented. Personally, I don't think the "Apple TV" is a TV. May not even have a screen. Who knows.
Oh please, if you think Apple has perfected the tablet, you're wrong. People still can't use it to be productive. When most of the apps on it are fart machines and beer drinking apps, how would you expect to get anything done with it?
I know several people who purchased an iPad and don't ever use it. They say it's the most worthless Apple product they ever bought.
And if you think 4-finger touch to switch between apps isn't cumbersome, then WAKE UP! Nobody knows anything about user-experience anymore. Just user-interface. Well anyone can make a button look pretty. But does it actually help me get stuff done?
I also know several people who bring both an iPad and a Macbook Air to meetings. Why? Because they want the best of both worlds. If Apple would actually listen to what customers want, I wouldn't be so negative.
Maybe someone will make an attachment to combine their iPad on the backside of their Mackbook Air. Or would that look like a toaster attached to a refridgerator?
Oh please, if you think Apple has perfected the tablet, you're wrong. People still can't use it to be productive. When most of the apps on it are fart machines and beer drinking apps, how would you expect to get anything done with it?
I know several people who purchased an iPad and don't ever use it. They say it's the most worthless Apple product they ever bought.
And if you think 4-finger touch to switch between apps isn't cumbersome, then WAKE UP! Nobody knows anything about user-experience anymore. Just user-interface. Well anyone can make a button look pretty. But does it actually help me get stuff done?
I also know several people who bring both an iPad and a Macbook Air to meetings. Why? Because they want the best of both worlds. If Apple would actually listen to what customers want, I wouldn't be so negative.
Maybe someone will make an attachment to combine their iPad on the backside of their Mackbook Air. Or would that look like a toaster attached to a refridgerator?
The problem is Microsoft's been offering tablet OSs for two decades and convertible tablets just haven't sold very well. I remember seeing a lot of ads for XP Tablet edition, so it's not like it was a secret product.
The problem is Microsoft's been offering tablet OSs for two decades and convertible tablets just haven't sold very well. I remember seeing a lot of ads for XP Tablet edition, so it's not like it was a secret product.
Why even bother responding to such an obvious troll? Seriously, no one is productive on the iPad? iPad fart and beer apps? I mean, it's not even good trolling.
As long as it's done in the right way, convergence works. This can be seen with the iPhone, which is a gaming device, an internet device, an iPod, a camera and a phone and there are still elements that lead to a poorer experience such as no physical game controls and a fixed lens on the camera.
When the convergence compromises the design of the device, then it's the wrong way to go.
In the example of the Asus Transformer, it could be argued that it is a more elegant solution than Apple's keyboard dock, especially if you want to take the keyboard with you on your travels. Windows 8 tablets on the other hand are the wrong type of convergence because Microsoft is trying to avoid abandoning legacy Windows so they are trying to squeeze the old UI onto a small screen while tacking a touch UI on top so you end up with a poor experience of both.
One big reason against the MBA/iPad is the screen aspect. 16:9 wouldn't work well on a tablet so they'd have to go with 4:3 for the Air. It is also twice the weight just now. Then there's the home button to deal with too.
In some ways I like that they respect the legacy UI and workflow but the iPad ownership is increasing dramatically and they have taken steps to make the iPad standalone. Even now, people are having to decide between an Air or an iPad and not getting the best of both. Perhaps they'll always have to buy both but I think it will just need a rethinking of the input methods.
I agree there will be convergence of a sort but not between iPad and Air, but among iPad, Air, and MBP. As iPad becomes more powerful, it will gain more capabilities, eating into Air; as Air becomes more powerful, Air and MBP will merge. One key issue keeping the mergers from occurring is price of SSD; the price for 500GB SSD needs to come down. Eventually, the form factors will be iPad and MBP Air. No physical hard drives except through Thunderbolt.
>to people that started off on an iPhone or iPad, like many of the switcher, they are very natural.
I disagree. On an iPad there's nothing to remember. You use the screen through direct manipulation. Lion's gestures have to be learned and remembered. Is it three or four fingers to move between apps? What does that five finger grab do? It's no better than hot keys, which are also non-obvious and have to be learned.
Touchscreen iMacs and laptops are fine for being able click on buttons quickly. Where does it say that if a Mac has a touchscreen, your keyboard and mouse will stop working?
And if Apple builds touchscreen support into Mac OS, it would also make it easier for third party developers to create things like interactive kiosks. Connecting an iPad to a big screen TV is not the same thing.
Windows 8 will be a gigantic disaster for Microsoft. Mark your calendars.
Not sure if trolling... :???:
What I hope is this will finally put to rest any people who continue to push for iOS on the desktop. Even Tim doesn't support mobile OS' as a primary OS.
I see. And oh, he's not. I feel it's a legitimate worry for them, as well.
I posted this in another thread and IMO it applies here too.
Quote:
Desktop integration and seamless transitions.
If Microsoft succeeds in doing what they're trying to do they will enable seamless flow between the desktop and tablet. Microsoft has always held sway over the business market for it's ease of centralized management compared to it's *nix brethren. If Apple can't manage to nit things together with iOS and OSX and Microsoft can with a unified Windows 8 platform then they will win (long term).
Consumers on the other hand will choose what makes their life easiest and is essentially the cheapest (TCO) solution. That right now is Windows desktop running iTunes syncing to an Apple mobile device. If Microsoft can make it cheaper, easier and more reliable to do than Apple then Microsoft will win the consumer market as well. This will be a much greater challenge as the $499 price point for the iPad is pretty damn cheap and the iPhone (with iOS) is really the best mobile platform. That can change easily if Microsoft can woo popular developers as well as create main stream software for use with the entire platform (remember Microsoft is a software company). They already have a stellar phone manufacturer (Nokia) in their pocket with an established loyal consumer base (Europe).
You know Windows tablets will be a consumer hit when Steve Ballmer dons a red sweater to hock one. He's so downright folksy. What's not to love? Come sit by the fire with your uncle Ballmer while he reads you a story from his Windows tablet.
Your wording brings to mind the expression "hock a loogie"
<p> </p><div class="quote-container"> <span>Quote:</span> <div class="quote-block"> Originally Posted by <strong>melgross</strong> <a href="/t/149589/tim-cook-says-windows-8-style-tablet-pc-convergence-wont-please-anyone#post_2100548"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" /></a><br /> <br /> <br /> Well Jeff, he's a troll, so logic isn't what he's interested in. He's here to do what he's already done, which is to get a bunch of people to waste their time responding.</div></div><p> </p><p> And what do we do with trolls?</p>
It depends. If they're just saying silly things, we don't do anything. But if they get insulting, they'll be deleted, at least.
<p> </p><div class="quote-container"> <span>Quote:</span> <div class="quote-block"> Originally Posted by <strong>Tallest Skil</strong> <a href="/t/149589/tim-cook-says-windows-8-style-tablet-pc-convergence-wont-please-anyone/40#post_2100566"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" /></a><br /> <br /> <p> </p> <p> Ignore them, as AI has no official troll policy nor definition thereof.</p> </div></div><p> </p><p> I suppose the vitriolic back-and-forth with the trolls may add to the page clicks, therefore the trolls are welcomed with open arms.</p>
Not really. But all of us here at one time or another say things that others can think of as trolling, particularly if they don't know us. I've been accused of it by some people over the years who were new, and so didn't know my posting history.
But people have their opinions. A few people who I thought might be trolls because their first few posts were well off the usual opinions turned out not to be. So you don't want to start deleting or banning people because they don't agree with the majority here. They may be annoying, but that happens.
<p> </p><div class="quote-container"> <span>Quote:</span> <div class="quote-block"> Originally Posted by <strong>MsftMacMan</strong> <a href="/t/149589/tim-cook-says-windows-8-style-tablet-pc-convergence-wont-please-anyone/40#post_2100670"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" /></a><br /> <br /> <p> While you can debate the level of user acceptance for Windows 8 (it's a on one level a radical change to the UI that will certainly divide opinion (already has clearly!) it's not correct to say that it will not be ready, indeed you may not be aware but there is already a very reliable Consumer preview, that I (and many others) have been using for a month or more. While still 'beta' - it works well (extremely quickly with great boot times, and is also very easy to use in a 'traditional' desktop - as well as a tablet / touch 1st device. I don't usually bother responding to posts on here as they are typically so rabidly one sided in their views (both for an against Apple) that it's hardly worth the bother of trying to put a balanced view - but in this instance I just wanted to be clear on a fact, good, bad or great Windows 8 is on track and already very useable.</p> </div></div><p> </p><p> I couldn't agree more. For those of you that haven't used the Windows 8 beta (or as in my case watched someone else use it), don't be so quick to knock it. I'm sure Tim Cook isn't so stupid as to think that Windows 8 isn't a threat to Apple's continued growth. Apple needs to up the ante. IMO it is time for Apple to improve Mail, Pages, and Server. They also need to make a "mac mini pro" that can be tailored for the business market. Apple has developer momentum. This is a great time to make a move on Microsoft. While Microsoft is focused on tablets and phones, Apple should be gunning for MS core business with a surprise attack. </p><p> </p><p> The reason this is important is because at some point Apple needs software developers to make business tools for the Mac. It sucks when I need software and it isn't available in a Mac version. I own 3 Macs and 1 Dell. The Dell hasn't been turned on in so long that the clock battery is dead. </p>
Except that they said the thing about XP, Vista, and then Win 7. Each time, Mac sales went up.
It's clear that Win8 is a frantic reaction to Apple's success, and to Android's success as well. Microsoft has no presence in tablets, despite all of their long term work and posturing. Win Mobile, and now WP7 have been failing. They've decided, from the great sales success of the Zune HD (joke people, it's a joke!), that Metro was their future. But really no one is interested, so they think they can push it onto everyone, and then they'll love it so much that they'll rush out any buy tablets and phones based on it. Good luck to that!
This is a desperate action, not one of quiet contemplation. It's obviously a rush job. It's like the old Doublemint gum commercials: "two, two, two gums in one!". Most techie people in the tech sites don't like it at all.
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by I am a Zither Zather Zuzz
I think I saw that on The Jetsons.
When I was a kid I used to think that Judy Jetson was hot... now I think that Jane Jetson is hot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MsftMacMan
While you can debate the level of user acceptance for Windows 8 (it's a on one level a radical change to the UI that will certainly divide opinion (already has clearly!) it's not correct to say that it will not be ready, indeed you may not be aware but there is already a very reliable Consumer preview, that I (and many others) have been using for a month or more. While still 'beta' - it works well (extremely quickly with great boot times, and is also very easy to use in a 'traditional' desktop - as well as a tablet / touch 1st device. I don't usually bother responding to posts on here as they are typically so rabidly one sided in their views (both for an against Apple) that it's hardly worth the bother of trying to put a balanced view - but in this instance I just wanted to be clear on a fact, good, bad or great Windows 8 is on track and already very useable.
I couldn't agree more. For those of you that haven't used the Windows 8 beta (or as in my case watched someone else use it), don't be so quick to knock it. I'm sure Tim Cook isn't so stupid as to think that Windows 8 isn't a threat to Apple's continued growth. Apple needs to up the ante. IMO it is time for Apple to improve Mail, Pages, and Server. They also need to make a "mac mini pro" that can be tailored for the business market. Apple has developer momentum. This is a great time to make a move on Microsoft. While Microsoft is focused on tablets and phones, Apple should be gunning for MS core business with a surprise attack.
The reason this is important is because at some point Apple needs software developers to make business tools for the Mac. It sucks when I need software and it isn't available in a Mac version. I own 3 Macs and 1 Dell. The Dell hasn't been turned on in so long that the clock battery is dead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TallistDah
Do you think MS will remove the feature (CTRL ALT DEL) from Windows 8? If not how will they build it into their "new" tablet? If you can't fix it feature it!!!
Microsoft will evolve. Soon, it will be "multi touch gesture to reboot"
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightknight
Isn't that Apple?
Yes. If you ignore the fact that Microsoft has more software titles and sold more copies of its software than every application Apple has ever released.
Quote:
Originally Posted by I am a Zither Zather Zuzz
I think I saw that on The Jetsons.
Actually, I was thinking of Star Trek (original series, of course) but I didn't want to say so fearing a flood of corrections about how the system on the Enterprise synthesized the food…and probably the plates and trays, too.
The point I was trying to make is that things like the Mac, iPod, iPhone, and iPad weren't just better versions of things that already existed. They were things that were re-envisoned and reinvented. Personally, I don't think the "Apple TV" is a TV. May not even have a screen. Who knows.
Oh please, if you think Apple has perfected the tablet, you're wrong. People still can't use it to be productive. When most of the apps on it are fart machines and beer drinking apps, how would you expect to get anything done with it?
I know several people who purchased an iPad and don't ever use it. They say it's the most worthless Apple product they ever bought.
And if you think 4-finger touch to switch between apps isn't cumbersome, then WAKE UP! Nobody knows anything about user-experience anymore. Just user-interface. Well anyone can make a button look pretty. But does it actually help me get stuff done?
I also know several people who bring both an iPad and a Macbook Air to meetings. Why? Because they want the best of both worlds. If Apple would actually listen to what customers want, I wouldn't be so negative.
Maybe someone will make an attachment to combine their iPad on the backside of their Mackbook Air. Or would that look like a toaster attached to a refridgerator?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Scherrer
Oh please, if you think Apple has perfected the tablet, you're wrong. People still can't use it to be productive. When most of the apps on it are fart machines and beer drinking apps, how would you expect to get anything done with it?
I know several people who purchased an iPad and don't ever use it. They say it's the most worthless Apple product they ever bought.
And if you think 4-finger touch to switch between apps isn't cumbersome, then WAKE UP! Nobody knows anything about user-experience anymore. Just user-interface. Well anyone can make a button look pretty. But does it actually help me get stuff done?
I also know several people who bring both an iPad and a Macbook Air to meetings. Why? Because they want the best of both worlds. If Apple would actually listen to what customers want, I wouldn't be so negative.
Maybe someone will make an attachment to combine their iPad on the backside of their Mackbook Air. Or would that look like a toaster attached to a refridgerator?
The problem is Microsoft's been offering tablet OSs for two decades and convertible tablets just haven't sold very well. I remember seeing a lot of ads for XP Tablet edition, so it's not like it was a secret product.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM
The problem is Microsoft's been offering tablet OSs for two decades and convertible tablets just haven't sold very well. I remember seeing a lot of ads for XP Tablet edition, so it's not like it was a secret product.
Why even bother responding to such an obvious troll? Seriously, no one is productive on the iPad? iPad fart and beer apps? I mean, it's not even good trolling.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin
As long as it's done in the right way, convergence works. This can be seen with the iPhone, which is a gaming device, an internet device, an iPod, a camera and a phone and there are still elements that lead to a poorer experience such as no physical game controls and a fixed lens on the camera.
When the convergence compromises the design of the device, then it's the wrong way to go.
In the example of the Asus Transformer, it could be argued that it is a more elegant solution than Apple's keyboard dock, especially if you want to take the keyboard with you on your travels. Windows 8 tablets on the other hand are the wrong type of convergence because Microsoft is trying to avoid abandoning legacy Windows so they are trying to squeeze the old UI onto a small screen while tacking a touch UI on top so you end up with a poor experience of both.
One big reason against the MBA/iPad is the screen aspect. 16:9 wouldn't work well on a tablet so they'd have to go with 4:3 for the Air. It is also twice the weight just now. Then there's the home button to deal with too.
In some ways I like that they respect the legacy UI and workflow but the iPad ownership is increasing dramatically and they have taken steps to make the iPad standalone. Even now, people are having to decide between an Air or an iPad and not getting the best of both. Perhaps they'll always have to buy both but I think it will just need a rethinking of the input methods.
I agree there will be convergence of a sort but not between iPad and Air, but among iPad, Air, and MBP. As iPad becomes more powerful, it will gain more capabilities, eating into Air; as Air becomes more powerful, Air and MBP will merge. One key issue keeping the mergers from occurring is price of SSD; the price for 500GB SSD needs to come down. Eventually, the form factors will be iPad and MBP Air. No physical hard drives except through Thunderbolt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit
When I was a kid I used to think that Judy Jetson was hot... now I think that Jane Jetson is hot.
A big hearty LOL on that one, thanks for the laugh. I totally relate. Best comment on the thread. :-)
>to people that started off on an iPhone or iPad, like many of the switcher, they are very natural.
I disagree. On an iPad there's nothing to remember. You use the screen through direct manipulation. Lion's gestures have to be learned and remembered. Is it three or four fingers to move between apps? What does that five finger grab do? It's no better than hot keys, which are also non-obvious and have to be learned.
Touchscreen iMacs and laptops are fine for being able click on buttons quickly. Where does it say that if a Mac has a touchscreen, your keyboard and mouse will stop working?
And if Apple builds touchscreen support into Mac OS, it would also make it easier for third party developers to create things like interactive kiosks. Connecting an iPad to a big screen TV is not the same thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich
Windows 8 will be a gigantic disaster for Microsoft. Mark your calendars.
Not sure if trolling... :???:
What I hope is this will finally put to rest any people who continue to push for iOS on the desktop. Even Tim doesn't support mobile OS' as a primary OS.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AHrubik
Not sure if trolling... :???:
Who, the gesture guy or the touchscreen Mac guy?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
Who, the gesture guy or the touchscreen Mac guy?
I was overwhelmed by the new version of the site software and forgot to quote the first post in the thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AHrubik
I was overwhelmed by the new version of the site software and forgot to quote the first post in the thread.
I see. And oh, he's not. I feel it's a legitimate worry for them, as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
I see. And oh, he's not. I feel it's a legitimate worry for them, as well.
I posted this in another thread and IMO it applies here too.
Quote:
Desktop integration and seamless transitions.
If Microsoft succeeds in doing what they're trying to do they will enable seamless flow between the desktop and tablet. Microsoft has always held sway over the business market for it's ease of centralized management compared to it's *nix brethren. If Apple can't manage to nit things together with iOS and OSX and Microsoft can with a unified Windows 8 platform then they will win (long term).
Consumers on the other hand will choose what makes their life easiest and is essentially the cheapest (TCO) solution. That right now is Windows desktop running iTunes syncing to an Apple mobile device. If Microsoft can make it cheaper, easier and more reliable to do than Apple then Microsoft will win the consumer market as well. This will be a much greater challenge as the $499 price point for the iPad is pretty damn cheap and the iPhone (with iOS) is really the best mobile platform. That can change easily if Microsoft can woo popular developers as well as create main stream software for use with the entire platform (remember Microsoft is a software company). They already have a stellar phone manufacturer (Nokia) in their pocket with an established loyal consumer base (Europe).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton
You know Windows tablets will be a consumer hit when Steve Ballmer dons a red sweater to hock one. He's so downright folksy. What's not to love? Come sit by the fire with your uncle Ballmer while he reads you a story from his Windows tablet.
Your wording brings to mind the expression "hock a loogie"
It depends. If they're just saying silly things, we don't do anything. But if they get insulting, they'll be deleted, at least.
Not really. But all of us here at one time or another say things that others can think of as trolling, particularly if they don't know us. I've been accused of it by some people over the years who were new, and so didn't know my posting history.
But people have their opinions. A few people who I thought might be trolls because their first few posts were well off the usual opinions turned out not to be. So you don't want to start deleting or banning people because they don't agree with the majority here. They may be annoying, but that happens.
Except that they said the thing about XP, Vista, and then Win 7. Each time, Mac sales went up.
It's clear that Win8 is a frantic reaction to Apple's success, and to Android's success as well. Microsoft has no presence in tablets, despite all of their long term work and posturing. Win Mobile, and now WP7 have been failing. They've decided, from the great sales success of the Zune HD (joke people, it's a joke!), that Metro was their future. But really no one is interested, so they think they can push it onto everyone, and then they'll love it so much that they'll rush out any buy tablets and phones based on it. Good luck to that!
This is a desperate action, not one of quiet contemplation. It's obviously a rush job. It's like the old Doublemint gum commercials: "two, two, two gums in one!". Most techie people in the tech sites don't like it at all.