It's a New Mac Pro for me - Updated or Not! Well Maybe....
Since deciding to go to Mac from a PC for all my computer needs; after migrating from a iPod Touch to an iPhone4 to an iPad2 and seeing the simplicity and careful attention to quality, ease of use, beauty, and dependability compared to Windows and Android. Therefore after careful consideration and research giving considerable thought to all of the options and advice I have been given here on AppleInsider and other forums - Apple support, Macnn, MacRumors, Cult of Mac, Logos4, Tech Labs (Leo Laporte - the Tech Guy) etc. I have went back to my original intention of purchasing a Mac Pro. I am the kind of person that would go nuts thinking I cant take the side off of my computer and change a hard drive, a card, memory (with ease) replace a fan or whatever. I am used to this kind of thing and actually enjoy it. Considering this when I look into a Mac Pro it is absolutely beautiful! A work of Art! Nothing like the inside of any PC I have ever looked into; which looks like a maze of a mass of wires and boxes just screwed in all over the place - no nice convenient drawers in there.... :-( I've worked on several of them .
I for the most part probably don't need a Mac Pro but then at times with that kind of power it would make some task go much smoother I'm sure. (after I learn the Mac OS). Also the peace of mind and confidence I would gain knowing I had a machine I could depend on and just works (I'm not in dream land I know everything can break) This would mean a lot to me just knowing what I had if I needed it. I also am looking at longevity. I want to keep this machine for a very long time so I want to future proof myself as much as I can with a machine I could upgrade to some extent if I needed to.
So here I am waiting to see if there will be a new or upgraded Mac Pro soon - I sure hope so. If not then I will buy the one that is available now I am not going to wait 6-12 months and really I cant. If anyone has any advice as far as what my choices should be I would appreciate it much but advice on the Mac Pro either the current one or an upgraded model if there is one; I'm settled on that. Advice on buying, processors, video cards, Memory, accessories, whether to buy now or wait etc. Thanks a bunch everyone! :-D
Comments
If you don't need one immediately I suggest waiting for an update. I don't think it's going to happen immediately, but my concern with the older one is becoming how long it will remain supported considering that board design has been in use for quite a long time already. I like to buy earlier in a cycle whenever possible. This is just a suggestion. Obviously if you need something right now, that's a different story. I wouldn't be terribly surprised if the update cycle goes into summer, but we shall see.
I reach the diametric opposite conclusion. If you need a Mac Pro now, then buy a Mac Pro now. Buy the computer directly from the online Apple Store. If per chance Apple is on the verge of offering a new model, then my experience is that Apple will offer the new model to you. As for how long the computer will be supported, the answer is really, really simple. Some states legally mandate that Apple support its computers for five years. Customers in all states reap the benefit of these legal mandates.
I have two Power Mac G5s--one from 2004 and the second from 2005--and both run beautifully today. A lot of new software won't run on them, but quite a lot of other new software will. Of course, the old compatible software did not suddenly become incompatible. These are PPC-based computers. The Mac Pros that you are considering are Intel-based. Software compatibility is not an issue now and will not be an issue five years from now. What would you expect a new Mac Pro or replacement model to have five years from now that the current model does not have? Two things come to mind--retina display graphics and optical Thunderbolt. Current Mac Pro graphics cards sport a DVI port and two Mini DisplayPorts. A graphics card upgrade will take care of both new expected hardware features.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmm
If you don't need one immediately I suggest waiting for an update. I don't think it's going to happen immediately, but my concern with the older one is becoming how long it will remain supported considering that board design has been in use for quite a long time already. I like to buy earlier in a cycle whenever possible. This is just a suggestion. Obviously if you need something right now, that's a different story. I wouldn't be terribly surprised if the update cycle goes into summer, but we shall see.
I may be able to hold off till after WWDC we should at least have an update or at least a hint of one anyway by then... Summer....??? that's iffy without some kind of encouragement. Thanks
Quote:
Originally Posted by not1lost
I may be able to hold off till after WWDC we should at least have an update or at least a hint of one anyway by then... Summer....??? that's iffy without some kind of encouragement. Thanks
It's up to you. You said you wanted a Mac, but I have no idea what you're using currently. The mac pro right now is in the same slump that the Windows workstation boxes have suffered in that they're stuck with nehalem/westmere. Everyone spins it as a doom and gloom sign for their future, yet that happened with the laptops too. They held on to the Core2duo models for a long time when using NVidia chipsets going forward became impossible due to Intel's lawsuit. I doubt they'll announce anything at WWDC. They haven't really used it to talk about hardware in some time. They don't do hints. Most of what you see on here is speculation rather than a real leak.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Me
I reach the diametric opposite conclusion. If you need a Mac Pro now, then buy a Mac Pro now. Buy the computer directly from the online Apple Store. If per chance Apple is on the verge of offering a new model, then my experience is that Apple will offer the new model to you. As for how long the computer will be supported, the answer is really, really simple. Some states legally mandate that Apple support its computers for five years. Customers in all states reap the benefit of these legal mandates.
I have two Power Mac G5s--one from 2004 and the second from 2005--and both run beautifully today. A lot of new software won't run on them, but quite a lot of other new software will. Of course, the old compatible software did not suddenly become incompatible. These are PPC-based computers. The Mac Pros that you are considering are Intel-based. Software compatibility is not an issue now and will not be an issue five years from now. What would you expect a new Mac Pro or replacement model to have five years from now that the current model does not have? Two things come to mind--retina display graphics and optical Thunderbolt. Current Mac Pro graphics cards sport a DVI port and two Mini DisplayPorts. A graphics card upgrade will take care of both new expected hardware features.
I'm sure they run fine, but I'm talking about things like OS updates. The G5s were sold into much of 2006. Some software developers didn't release intel compliant versions until 2007 to early 2008, and not everything ran well through Rosetta. Apple did an excellent job on Rosetta, but some stuff was just never meant for emulation. Anyway a lot of software support started to drop off by 2008 versions, less than a full two years after some of the late ones were sold as the first mac pros didn't hit until after mid 2006. Apple dropped G5 support in Snow Leopard in 2009. Obviously that isn't five years. I have no way of knowing the OP's situation. I was just letting him know that these have been out a very long time. The cpu, logic board, and gpu will all get an update. Software compatibility can still be an issue. As an example Adobe is dropping support for all of the 32 bit models. Apple drops support for legacy models at times. They're dropping support for some 2008 models with Mountain Lion. Again that's roughly four years from the time they came out, not the time they ceased being sold. I don't entirely know the OP's needs, but if he requires the capability to run the latest OS and software, then this can be a valid concern. The line hasn't seen any major changes in roughly three years (note 2010 was just a drop in type refresh), so it's definitely due for an update.
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Originally Posted by hmm
"It's up to you. You said you wanted a Mac, but I have no idea what you're using currently. The mac pro right now is in the same slump that the Windows workstation boxes have suffered in that they're stuck with nehalem/westmere........."
I build websites, use photoshop, writing, microsoft office - full suite, and have a research progarm that is an absolute resource hog, runs the processors at 80-90% and maxes out the 12G Memory often, using two monitors with multitasking often.
March 2011
OS Name Microsoft Windows 7 Home Premium
Version 6.1.7601 Service Pack 1 Build 7601
Other OS Description Not Available
OS Manufacturer Microsoft Corporation
System Manufacturer Dell Inc.
System Model XPS 8300
System Type x64-based PC
Processor Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-2600 CPU @ 3.40GHz, 3401 Mhz, 4 Core(s), 8 Logical Processor(s)
BIOS Version/Date Dell Inc. A06, 10/17/2011
SMBIOS Version 2.6
Windows Directory C:\Windows
System Directory C:\Windows\system32
Boot Device \Device\HarddiskVolume2
Locale United States
Hardware Abstraction Layer Version = "6.1.7601.17514"
Time Zone Central Daylight Time
Installed Physical Memory (RAM) 12.0 GB
Total Physical Memory 12.0 GB
Available Physical Memory 7.97 GB
Total Virtual Memory 24.0 GB
Available Virtual Memory 19.0 GB
Page File Space 12.0 GB
Page File C:\pagefile.sys
Quote:
Originally Posted by not1lost
I build websites, use photoshop, writing, microsoft office - full suite, and have a research progarm that is an absolute resource hog, runs the processors at 80-90% and maxes out the 12G Memory often, using two monitors with multitasking often.
Okay cpu-wise that's basically identical to the fully upgraded 27" imac. There's nothing bad about running the cpus at that load if it's actually doing something. Being able to harness power isn't a bad thing. The imac obviously has to absorb the cost of a display panel and a somewhat expensive gpu. It uses a mobile gpu for heat/power reasons, but it's not really an inexpensive one. They're normally used in 17" gaming laptops. The base mac pro is slower in some tasks than this one. Your gpu options are better, but workstations have been a bit stagnant on both the Windows and Mac side. HP, Dell, and a few others have been announcing their new Sandy Bridge E based designs. Apple has yet to announce anything based on this. It may be a little while. The current cpus are slower than what is used in your current machine, and it starts at $2500. The 6 core is popular, but when we see updates, you should be able to obtain a comparably fast machine for less money given the updated cpu/gpu options. Anyway you mention you could use the power at times, but unless you require OpenCL under OSX, you're unlikely to see a speed boost over your current machine, assuming your current hardware and Windows installation are both in good condition. I can't find a reasonable cpu comparison, but it's a W3530 in the starter mac pro. The 6 core uses a W3680. Your current one uses a different architecture with the i7 2600k. The base Xeons are roughly the same price, but as I said they're just an older generation.
By the way, I have yet to see photoshop, illustrator, or indesign show real gains from anything beyond quad cpus, so given the clock speed, your imac is about as fast as it'll get for those on the cpu end of things. Obviously I don't really know anything about your research program.
The CPUs are available to upgrade it and all models in the lineup will have upgrades available by June 5th. I think WWDC will make it clear what is happening.
As I mentioned in another thread, the highest-end Pro tends to outperform the highest-end consumer machines for 2-3 years so only the 6-12 core models are really worthwhile and the 6-core one is debatable now that the iMac is on Ivy Bridge while the Pro will be on Sandy Bridge. The cost for a reasonable Mac Pro is $3500-4000 plus display vs the iMac at $2000, which includes a 27" IPS display and a Radeon 6000 series GPU.
It is nice to be able to open up a machine to do minor servicing but I think the iMac just needs to make drives accessible from the RAM slots by using 2.5" drives, which go up to 1.5TB. Removing the optical drive will give them plenty of room to shuffle things around. They can slim it down to make it look exactly like a standard display.
If they do update the Pro, the GPU outputs can't go on the outside as they have to merge the displayport and PCI signals for Thunderbolt. This should mean no PCI slots have this privilege and therefore no point in having PCI slots except a single slot for a custom GPU with 16 PCIe 3.0 lanes. This leaves 24 lanes with 4 lanes per port so 6x Thunderbolt outputs running on PCIe3, which can go up to 20Gbps each way. Right now, the Pro has 2 x16 slots and 2 x4. This would be like having an x16 with a GPU in it and 6 x4 slots.
Removing the optical from the Pro and the slots means cutting down a huge amount of space so less cost, less weight, smaller form factor. I'd say they should aim for 2/3 the volume at most. An 8" Cube would be really nice but I don't think it would accommodate a 12-core. If they can do Thunderbolt chaining, they could get away with single processor models with a smaller PSU, fewer fans etc but it's probably more cost-effective offering a processor upgrade.
The difference in size just by cutting some parts would be noticeable:
The main question about the Pro is, how long does it have left? The current design lasted 9 years. Will the Mac Pro be needed in 9 years at all? The ratio of desktop to laptop is now 30:70 and desktops aren't climbing back up. As Steve Jobs said, "[Apple] chooses the technical vectors that have a future". The switch from the Macbook to the Air was a bit too soon but it undeniably has a future and growth. The Mac Pro doesn't. It's no longer a desirable item and it's hidden in the back corner in the Apple Stores.
I have reservations about whether a new Pro will stand the test of time for another 9 years. Remember, the iMac will be 16x faster by that point. Fewer and fewer people will have a reason to buy a more powerful machine.
I think an Ivy Bridge iMac with an SSD and 7970M GPU will be enough of a machine for anybody looking for a workstation. It's only half the speed of the 12-core Pro.
So it comes down to your possible more advanced usage of PhotoShop and your research work. Since no body has any idea what your research work is we can only suggest in general terms. My suggestion is pretty simple, wait until new hardware debuts from Apple.
Why? Actually my concern isn't the CPU as much as the GPU. Hopefully apple will implement the newer series of hardware from AMD or NVidia. The desire here is for GPUs that do a much better Job of supporting OpenCL. Do not underestimate the importance of such support as just about everything is moving towards supporting OpenCL as opposed to other GPU compute offerings. Do understand though that GPU compute isn't the universal hammer for all nails.
The reality is that Ivy Bridge is a minor CPU update, thus there is little reason to wait for that upgrade in and of itself. On the Mac Pro, whatever Apple does here will likely be a bigger performance update than the mainstream machines. I still believe the Pro itself is dead, about to be replaced with something better. You can take that thought positively or negatively, but I'm hoping for a far better value. The Pro or it's replacement might be the most interesting hardware to come out this year and thus is worth waiting for.
In a nutshell Ivy Bridge isn't worth waiting for unless you depend upon the integrated graphics. The Mac Pro however might get a very capable processor upgrade.
Well Just about the time I think I have my mind made up; you all get the gears turning again..... I am new to Mac and what you are saying shows you know much about this than I do. Guess I still have more to learn about the Mac world and all. Not sure what I'll do now but I am sure I should wait.....
At least in some cases like the laptop MBP and the iMac. The Mac Pro or it's replacement could come at anytime. The only questionable hardware is the Mini and AIRs which likely won't ship until latter in June.
Quote:
Originally Posted by not1lost
Well Just about the time I think I have my mind made up; you all get the gears turning again..... I am new to Mac and what you are saying shows you know much about this than I do. Guess I still have more to learn about the Mac world and all. Not sure what I'll do now but I am sure I should wait.....
Well if you look at all machines using mac pro like hardware, they're basically all due for a refresh. Some of the other oems have announced them already, but they're all using hardware that was released in 2009-2010. The one you currently own uses newer hardware, because those options were actually released.
One thing about Mac Pros - they last. I'm still running my original 2006 Intel model. Only thing I had to do was add a new video card (Radeon 5770) last year. I will be replacing it within the next year to get access to updated software. If there is no new Mac Pro coming, then a top-end iMac will do the job.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmm
Well if you look at all machines using mac pro like hardware, they're basically all due for a refresh. Some of the other oems have announced them already, but they're all using hardware that was released in 2009-2010. The one you currently own uses newer hardware, because those options were actually released.
Sounds exciting! I can't wait to see what they have coming! I still want the biggest workhorse I can get and I would really like to be able to upgrade or add some things to it without a lot of trouble. but at the same time; if they come out with way newer hardware in the other machines and not the Mac Pro I guess now since reading some of these comments I would have to decide on the next best thing. One thing you dont want in todays computing world is outdated hardware that cannot be updated; that's a real problem. And yes the machine I have now is doing better than it was... - since I totally reformatted it and only put the windows 7 from the CD back on it without the load of Dell crap you got when you reformatted from the hidden partition. Yet... it is still "windows".... Yes I'll keep it around for the things that run only on windows since I have a lot of money invested in it and it is good for some things. this way I wont have to put windows on my New Mac; I'll just hook it to the same monitors and switch when I need to. I have plenty of room in my office for both machines. being a windows PC I would never get anything close to what I have invested in it. It has two fast ODDs one is blue ray and it has two USB 3.0 connections. So it is worth more to me to keep around than I could ever get out of it on Ebay. But I can't wait for my New Mac! When that comes in I know the PC will rarely be turned on....
Quote:
Originally Posted by gfeier
One thing about Mac Pros - they last. I'm still running my original 2006 Intel model. Only thing I had to do was add a new video card (Radeon 5770) last year. I will be replacing it within the next year to get access to updated software. If there is no new Mac Pro coming, then a top-end iMac will do the job.
Yes that is one thing I really want. I dont want a disposable computer. I want something that will take for the long haul and a big reason I was wanting a Mac Pro besides the power of the machine. But some of the comments about the board and all sound like the current models days are numbered.. so my fingers are crossed for an updated or totally new Mac Pro unless it's like six months from now or something like that. I just cant wait that long and would have to reconsider my other options... I didn't know about the board and all the other problems one may run into trying to update the current model... Not now but in a year or two... Or maybe now, I dont know that much about it I just know when you start telling me that the board in a computer is incompatible with the the up coming hardware that is a big problem with me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by not1lost
... Or maybe now, I dont know that much about it I just know when you start telling me that the board in a computer is incompatible with the the up coming hardware that is a big problem with me.
You are cowering at your own ghost stories. Apple does not sell disposable computers. gfier is still using his six-year-old Mac Pro. The Mac Pro that you buy today will last you at least that long if you decide to keep it. With it, you will be as productive in 2018 as the day that you put the computer on line if not more so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Me
You are cowering at your own ghost stories. Apple does not sell disposable computers. gfier is still using his six-year-old Mac Pro. The Mac Pro that you buy today will last you at least that long if you decide to keep it. With it, you will be as productive in 2018 as the day that you put the computer on line if not more so.
Indeed. Right now, for example, my priority in upgrades is knowing when to buy more RAM so that I can get the best deal on it before the price starts to skyrocket again. Would that be a few months after the release of the first Mac Pro model that is incompatible with my kind of RAM? Or would it be even sooner? I suppose I simply have to watch the prices.
And if there's one good thing that comes out of the Hackintosh community (and there is only one good thing…), it's the compatibility with extra GPUs. So even if the Mac Pro is killed off, history says I should still be able to buy a Radeon 7xxx (or 8xxx, even, probably) series card and have it work in OS X with their hacked support.
A lot of good things come out of he Hackintosh community. Sadly for a very long time now it has been the only way to get a decent desktop Mac. This is if you are willing to put up with the grief that comes with each OS release. So far I haven't been willing thus I have a MBP instead of a desktop because Apple can't see the wisdom in a proper desktop design.
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Originally Posted by wizard69
.... Sadly for a very long time now it has been the only way to get a decent desktop Mac. This is if you are willing to put up with the grief that comes with each OS release. So far I haven't been willing thus I have a MBP instead of a desktop because Apple can't see the wisdom in a proper desktop design.
What are your specifications for a "decent desktop Mac"?
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Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
Indeed. Right now, for example, my priority in upgrades is knowing when to buy more RAM so that I can get the best deal on it before the price starts to skyrocket again. Would that be a few months after the release of the first Mac Pro model that is incompatible with my kind of RAM? Or would it be even sooner? I suppose I simply have to watch the prices.
And if there's one good thing that comes out of the Hackintosh community (and there is only one good thing…), it's the compatibility with extra GPUs. So even if the Mac Pro is killed off, history says I should still be able to buy a Radeon 7xxx (or 8xxx, even, probably) series card and have it work in OS X with their hacked support.
I don't have a problem with the hackintosh community. I don't even think Apple minds it. A lot of the guys that build hackintosh desktops also seem to own Apple laptops. If the option didn't exist, I'm not sure they would actually go out and buy imacs or mac pros. In general, it's a hobbyist culture. I browse some of their forums occasionally. Apple's real concern most likely does not extend beyond those that would try to commercialize on the concept.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Me
What are your specifications for a "decent desktop Mac"?
Mr. Wizard?
Lemon Bon Bon.