Foxconn workers protest wages, threaten to jump off factory roof [u]

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Comments

  • Reply 41 of 92
    muppetrymuppetry Posts: 3,328member


     


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by DeanSolecki View Post



    Yeah, you must be right. People regularly threaten suicide when they have other means for expressing their discontent. First thing I always go for. Couldn't possibly be some grounds for concern, because inflation is up (which, as we all know, is a function of foxconn wages, and no other factor) and therefore everything is on the up and up.



    Thanks for clearing that up.


     


    I'm struggling to follow your argument.  Is it your starting premise that Foxconn workers have poor conditions and pay, or your conclusion because they are threatening to jump off the roof?  And in either case, are you asserting that they are badly off compared to their compatriots, or is your lament about working conditions in China in general? If the former, I think there are plenty of data indicating the contrary.  If the latter, how would you suggest influencing it?  Presumably not simply by artificially inflating the wages of one company that represents tiny fraction of the Chinese workforce.

  • Reply 42 of 92
    charlitunacharlituna Posts: 7,215member


     


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sandor View Post


    Where was all the concern about Foxconn workers 20 years ago?



     


    20 years ago they couldn't name drop Apple to get hits for websites etc despite the fact that no one has confirmed that said workers and factory have anything to do with Apple. Foxconn is a partner for something like 75 different companies. these folks could be protesting shit conditions at a Samsung tv factory for all we know at this point

  • Reply 43 of 92
    freerange wrote: »


    Like I said "the ignorance and arrogance of Americans" - your total lack of understanding of the real issues, the Chinese economy, society and living conditions just breeds more ignorance. The reality is that China is still a country of around 800 million peasant farmers. The Foxconn workers are in fact making more than anyone else in their families by far, are saving into their own bank accounts, as well as sending money home to support their poor rural families. And somehow you know better what's best for them, or what their issues might be? There are literally 10,000's of thousands of protests in China every year so people do have means of "expressing their discontent". 

    Correction: I don't "know better than them," but I can recognize the quite obvious signs of discontent, and assume that they are justified. If China has a long way to go then this is the way that they will get there. What is it exactly that you want them to do? Beg for longer hours? Beg for less pay? If it is unjust, by your own admission, but only less unjust than the alternative it would follow that they have a right to object as well, although perhaps a marginally smaller right. The fact that they get noticed makes it to some extent an obligation for them to draw the light of public indignation on a system of corruption and exploitation.

    Your argument that "it is a little better than the worst" is so weak-spirited as to stir in me a mild distaste for you, generally.

    The peasant has a rough lot, whether he is French, American, or Chinese. For my part I would wish him the best, even if it looks like anything but the best will come his way. I don't care at all what someone's nationality is: I'm in the camp of human dignity, and I don't see why you'd so fervently oppose the sentiment.
  • Reply 44 of 92
    solipsismxsolipsismx Posts: 19,566member
    Correction: I don't "know better than them," but I can recognize the quite obvious signs of discontent, and assume that they are justified.

    So any country that has had a work strike or a suicide (or a threat of suicide) is a bad country in your mind? I bet you could count on one hand the number of countries that don't fit that build.
  • Reply 45 of 92
    muppetry wrote: »


    I'm struggling to follow your argument.  Is it your starting premise that Foxconn workers have poor conditions and pay, or your conclusion because they are threatening to jump off the roof?  And in either case, are you asserting that they are badly off compared to their compatriots, or is your lament about working conditions in China in general? If the former, I think there are plenty of data indicating the contrary.  If the latter, how would you suggest influencing it?  Presumably not simply by artificially inflating the wages of one company that represents tiny fraction of the Chinese workforce.

    My first premise is that people that are respected and content, do not, as a general rule, threaten mass suicide. My second premise is that because it has happened, we may assume that there is, in fact, some manner of deficiency. The argument is inductive.

    The upshot being a decent person would be on the side of the exploited. Since the sentiment is so vehemently against the chinese factory worker, you may draw what conclusions you may about the decency of the Apple Insider forum-goers.

    It is quite irrelevant if the Foxconn employees were making iPads or TVs.

    Whether or not some "plan of action" can be taken by Americans to positively affect the circumstances of the chinese factory worker is also not of particular relevance to my point, although it could certainly be discussed at length.
  • Reply 46 of 92
    solipsismx wrote: »
    So any country that has had a work strike or a suicide (or a threat of suicide) is a bad country in your mind? I bet you could count on one hand the number of countries that don't fit that build.

    No. I wouldn't make, and haven't made, that argument. "Bad country" is not a phrase I would use, anyway. What does "bad" mean, and to whom? There are better, narrower ways of defining the ailments of the wayward state.
  • Reply 47 of 92
    muppetrymuppetry Posts: 3,328member


     


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by DeanSolecki View Post




    Quote:

    Originally Posted by muppetry View Post







    I'm struggling to follow your argument.  Is it your starting premise that Foxconn workers have poor conditions and pay, or your conclusion because they are threatening to jump off the roof?  And in either case, are you asserting that they are badly off compared to their compatriots, or is your lament about working conditions in China in general? If the former, I think there are plenty of data indicating the contrary.  If the latter, how would you suggest influencing it?  Presumably not simply by artificially inflating the wages of one company that represents tiny fraction of the Chinese workforce.




    My first premise is that people that are respected and content, do not, as a general rule, threaten mass suicide. My second premise is that because it has happened, we may assume that there is, in fact, some manner of deficiency. The argument is inductive.



    The upshot being a decent person would be on the side of the exploited. Since the sentiment is so vehemently against the chinese factory worker, you may draw what conclusions you may about the decency of the Apple Insider forum-goers.



    It is quite irrelevant if the Foxconn employees were making iPads or TVs.



    Whether or not some "plan of action" can be taken by Americans to positively affect the circumstances of the chinese factory worker is also not of particular relevance to my point, although it could certainly be discussed at length.


     


    So just to clarify - it is the nature of their protest (threatening to jump) that indicates to you that there is particular merit to their claims of exploitation.  If they were merely threatening to strike - a quite ubiquitous bargaining strategy - that would be different?

  • Reply 48 of 92
    postulantpostulant Posts: 1,270member
    I can't comprehend a job situation so bad that I would jump to my death in protest. Maybe I need a reality check.
  • Reply 49 of 92
    postulantpostulant Posts: 1,270member
    I mention, in passing, the moral decay in the UK (which reflects that which afflicts the US.)

    I happen to agree with a lot of what you've said here tonight..

  • Reply 50 of 92
    blitz1blitz1 Posts: 412member


    Some reactions here are unbelievable and not showing any kind of humanity.


     


    But then again, there's been a TV viewing reassuring us that everything is OK, isn't it?


     


    It seems the Apple-fan has become quite conservative. Gingrich supporters?


     

  • Reply 51 of 92
    matrix07matrix07 Posts: 1,993member


     


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by I am a Zither Zather Zuzz View Post


    What these people don't realize is how much better their lives are compared with working back in their home village.



     


    They will realize alright when they got booted. lol.

  • Reply 52 of 92
    Okay, I know I shouldn't, but I was working on the image in my head. If a large number of people jump off a roof, don't the last ones to jump just land on a pile of other people? Thereby minimizing their own injuries. That aside it seems the obvious solutions are -
    1) build underground factories, or
    2) hide the ladders

    I know I'm making light of a serious situation, but I barely have effective influence on my own life much less that of people on the other side of the world. For now I'm going to try to improve the things over which I actually have influence.
  • Reply 53 of 92
    I'm stepping out of this conversation at this point. To muppetry I will only say that, with the body of available information I would contend that the chinese factory worker is not sufficiently respected as a human being, and threats of mass suicide are a conspicuous (and [I]not isolated[/I]) indication of that fact. You may set different thresholds, judge by different parameters, and reach a different conclusion. I would say, however, that you reached that conclusion deterministically.

    As an amendment to my sentiments in this thread, I would mention parenthetically that there are a [I]great deal[/I] of Americans and Westerners that respect and fight for human dignity as a principle, and not in the manner of a tribalist (i.e. [I]our[/I] human dignity instead of [I]your[/I] human dignity) and a few of those have commented on this thread, as a counter ballast to the "Win team America, murder everyone else" crowd.

    We aren't all bad, but the worst of us sure are [I]ambitious.[/I] ;)
  • Reply 54 of 92
    They need to listen to more Van Halen
  • Reply 55 of 92


    I don't care if they jump.


     


    Only a mentally unstable fool would threaten to jump off a roof anyway. This is not the act of a sane, rational person.


     


    Don't like your job...quit and return in eating rats and dogs in some shit hole village. Problem solved.

  • Reply 56 of 92
    MarvinMarvin Posts: 14,232moderator
    Obviously the conditions are very bad, and the pay is very low.  That anyone is trying to argue otherwise is a sign of the moral decay in the US/UK.  Anyone with integrity would be wishing all their best to people in a tough spot; people who are trying to make their lives a little better, however they can.  The xenophobia and unveiled hatred is depressing;

    I agree entirely. If the situation was reversed, I doubt everyone would be here posting about how great the free market is. Abuse seems to be fine as long as you aren't the one subjected to it.
    jragosta wrote:
    perhaps Canada should be pressuring the U.S. to offer a year of paid maternity leave since that's standard there. The Netherlands should be pushing the U.S. to offer 8 weeks vacation per year to all employees. France should be pushing us for a 32 hour work week. The UK should be insisting on free health care for all Americans. Scandinavian countries should demand free college education for all Americans. After all, if we can dictate our standards to China, why can't other countries do the same to us?

    You can't equate the vast differences in conditions between China and the west with minor differences between western countries but I believe the best standards should be sought for everyone, regardless of what country you are in. What would be wrong with the US getting 8 weeks vacation, 32 hour work weeks, free health care and free education? That's almost what you get in the UK and it seems to be trundling along just fine.

    Minor variations wouldn't be enforced but certainly if US workers were being abused, Europe would absolutely want to step in and help. The Chinese workers were very appreciative of Apple's efforts to improve conditions so to condemn them is to condemn Apple's own efforts.
    jragosta wrote:
    There's an inherent disconnect here. Apple does not have any employees in factories in China. Why are people complaining about Apple? Why not Walmart?

    So why not stop at saying 'it's not Apple's problem' instead of trying to justify why Chinese workers should be mistreated?
  • Reply 57 of 92
    adamcadamc Posts: 580member


    So if they implement the agreement next year things will be different.


     


    They work in Foxconn to make money.


     


    Now they are earning less so will do your part to supplement their income.

  • Reply 58 of 92


     


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Technarchy View Post


    I don't care if they jump.


     


    Only a mentally unstable fool would threaten to jump off a roof anyway. This is not the act of a sane, rational person.


     


    Don't like your job...quit and return in eating rats and dogs in some shit hole village. Problem solved.



     


    What a dick.

  • Reply 59 of 92
    They have disgraced themselves, their employer and their country. They should commit harakiri instead.... Oh wait... Wrong country
  • Reply 60 of 92
    jragostajragosta Posts: 10,473member


     


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Marvin View Post





    You can't equate the vast differences in conditions between China and the west with minor differences between western countries but I believe the best standards should be sought for everyone, regardless of what country you are in. What would be wrong with the US getting 8 weeks vacation, 32 hour work weeks, free health care and free education? That's almost what you get in the UK and it seems to be trundling along just fine.

    Minor variations wouldn't be enforced but certainly if US workers were being abused, Europe would absolutely want to step in and help. The Chinese workers were very appreciative of Apple's efforts to improve conditions so to condemn them is to condemn Apple's own efforts.

    So why not stop at saying 'it's not Apple's problem' instead of trying to justify why Chinese workers should be mistreated?


     


    OK. So you didn't bother to read my post at all - either that or you didn't make any effort to understand it.


     


    The Chinese workers are being given one of the best manufacturing jobs in the country. They're being paid much greater than market wages. They are working in a clean, well-lit factory that 95% of Chinese manufacturing workers can only dream of. Their work conditions meet every applicable law in China. In fact, from what I've seen, they meet almost every U.S. labor law, as well.



    So where do you get 'Chinese workers are mistreated'?

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