HI, SpamSandwich. You're quote seems to deal more with how rather than why.
I can't quote a reference, I'm just going from memory, but my recollection of why corporations exist was to preserve the business after the founder died. Before corporations, the founder owned the company and everything about it. When this person died, his associates (if any) and especially his family, stood to lose everything. But, with the invention of corporations, the business could continue. The fate of his associates, the business, the customers, and his family, had a path much more controllable and beneficial to all.
Of course, this is a memory from a discussion from years ago, but that's the gist of my recollection.
Fair share - the current favored phrase. Would that refer to the 47% of working americans that pay "zero" income tax? Or would it refer to those who receive "earned income credit" instead of paying income taxes? Or would it refer to General Electric who paid "Zero" corporate tax on over $11 billion in income? Or would it refer to Warren Buffet, Tom Daschle, Timothy Geithner and other friends of the POTUS who got caught evading taxes?
HI, SpamSandwich. You're quote seems to deal more with how rather than why.
I can't quote a reference, I'm just going from memory, but my recollection of why corporations exist was to preserve the business after the founder died. Before corporations, the founder owned the company and everything about it. When this person died, his associates (if any) and especially his family, stood to lose everything. But, with the invention of corporations, the business could continue. The fate of his associates, the business, the customers, and his family, had a path much more controllable and beneficial to all.
Of course, this is a memory from a discussion from years ago, but that's the gist of my recollection.
That may be true, but there was also the limitation or separation of liability issue that was mentioned.
Tax avoidance certainly wasn't the reason, that's only a benefit.
if I had a successful little company earning $10 million / year, with say 5 employees, you better believe the government will expect a share of my money. What's unfair is, if I make $10 billion / year, I can afford a white shoe tax engineer law firm (roughly $50 million/yr) to stonewash my tax bill down to zero percent. That's WRONG!! Megacorps should not have this advantage over small business.
The solution is to eliminate corporate tax and concentrate on collecting a percentage of wealthy people's realized income. Don't do it on the business side. Do it on the shareholder side. It's easier and demonstrably works better.
Tax minimization is a better word than tax avoidance and it is the duty of a company towards its shareholders to do so as thoroughly as is legal.
That said, wouldn't it be great for the USA - for future prosperity - if Apple could find a way of channeling some of that 110 billion into education trust funds, research endowments, into long-term productive investments?
Good for Apple -- no corporation pays any taxes, it is always a cost passed on to consumers in the cost of products!
No person or company should pay more taxes than they can find out how to minimize their tax burden! Kudos for finding ways to lower strangling taxation. Government is too big at all levels anyways, what we need is LESS government, and the only way to do that is through LOWER TAXES!!!!!
Charging them less taxes doesn't actually bring prices down. If you're willing to pay $100 for an item, why would they charge you $90? Generally it's an issue of how many can be sold at a given price point, but if they could sell the same number of ipads at twice their current price, they would do so. Anyway now here's what you don't understand. You won't find a single example of a successful society within Western culture that uses your tax model. The second issue is that governments rarely ever contract. I don't mean the US government. I mean any government. You won't find what you consider ideal anywhere in the world, especially not in a large scale society.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970
No.
First, we're primarily talking about income taxes here.
Second, as a couple of astute posters have already pointed, corporate taxes are simply passed on the their customer. Period.
Third, many utilities are paid for directly by utility customers of which corporations are one.
Fourth, roads are typically paid for directly by gas taxes, making them essentially a usage fee which companies pay directly or indirectly anyway.
Fifth, government education is paid for by property taxes which companies pay directly or indirectly anyway
Finally, and most importantly, you assume that none of these things would be ever be possible or provided if it weren't for government and taxes. That's a fallacy.
At one point we didn't have corporate taxes, but people seem to forget that taxation on individuals was structured differently. Look at the top tax brackets in the former half of the twentieth century to see what I mean.
We should not be too harsh on those criticizing Apple for their tax strategy. Obviously, those posters knowingly and deliberately pay more taxes than they are required to, presumably for the good of society, for which we should applaud them. That must be the case - they can't all just be hypocrites.
And help pay for public education to produce future employees, roads, utilities, make up for tax incentives that were given, etc.
Unfortunately none of these things are true. You have a very rosy picture of what government does with your money. It actually wastes 99% of it or services the national debt.
Apple knows how to spend their money and pass cost savings on to the customer MUCH better than the government would know how to use that money. Apple shouldn't have even responded to that, it's so ridiculous.
if I had a successful little company earning $10 million / year, with say 5 employees, you better believe the government will expect a share of my money. What's unfair is, if I make $10 billion / year, I can afford a white shoe tax engineer law firm (roughly $50 million/yr) to stonewash my tax bill down to zero percent. That's WRONG!! Megacorps should not have this advantage over small business.
The solution is to eliminate corporate tax and concentrate on collecting a percentage of wealthy people's realized income. Don't do it on the business side. Do it on the shareholder side. It's easier and demonstrably works better.
You were right put to the point of confiscating people's wealth as "realized" income. The correct solution to balance the playing field is to eliminate the corporate income tax...but also the personal income tax.
Implied in all discussions about taxation is the assumption that spending is fixed and/or should never be reduced. Spending needs to be reduced.
At one point we didn't have corporate taxes, but people seem to forget that taxation on individuals was structured differently. Look at the top tax brackets in the former half of the twentieth century to see what I mean.
Maybe you could just explain what you mean, because I don't see what you've said has to do with what I wrote at all.
Charging them less taxes doesn't actually bring prices down. If you're willing to pay $100 for an item, why would they charge you $90? Generally it's an issue of how many can be sold at a given price point, but if they could sell the same number of ipads at twice their current price, they would do so. Anyway now here's what you don't understand. You won't find a single example of a successful society within Western culture that uses your tax model. The second issue is that governments rarely ever contract. I don't mean the US government. I mean any government. You won't find what you consider ideal anywhere in the world, especially not in a large scale society.
We had the ideal here in this country, but we lost it. Governments can contract, but the people have to want it. The EU is forcing Greece to contract. We aren't talking about lowering Apple's taxes. We are talking about what would happen if they were higher. Undoubtedly the price would be passed on to the consumer.
The hell w/ their job creation. They weren't creating jobs with billions of dollars in tax revenue. Like other large multinational corporations, they know damn well they're avoiding paying taxes with their activities.
Apple and most corporations pays their taxes as defined by law. I would not want to invest in any company or corporation that knowingly paid more in taxes than they were legally obligated to pay. If governments aren't satisfied with the revenue they receive from companies/corporations they have the means to change the tax laws.
Is this kind of thing wrong? Yes. It hurts the country in ways few people truly grasp. Is any of it Apple's fault? Hell no, how could they compete if they didn't do what every one else does? The NEED for loopholes like this to be closed has never been more apparent. You have huge companies operating at breathtaking levels of efficiency and while that helps profit, it kills the opportunity and wealth of the lowest common denominator.
Sadly our society is built on rewarding greed by equating success directly with wealth.
Is this kind of thing wrong? Yes. It hurts the country in ways few people truly grasp. Is any of it Apple's fault? Hell no, how could they compete if they didn't do what every one else does? The NEED for loopholes like this to be closed has never been more apparent. You have huge companies operating at breathtaking levels of efficiency and while that helps profit, it kills the opportunity and wealth of the lowest common denominator.
Sadly our society is built on rewarding greed by equating success directly with wealth.
Apple isn't killing your opportunity or wealth by paying less taxes. There is nothing wrong with making a profit on selling a good product. That's not greed. Greed is the military industrial complex trying to pull us into war and keep us involved to get sweetheart deals from the government. Greed is Wall St. betting on things they never should have and getting bailed out by the tax payers. That's greed and it's wrong. That's not Apple.
How exactly could Apple paying more taxes create opportunity for poor people? And what about the moral argument here? Is right to steal money from Apple who earned what they have to give it to somebody who has been less fortunate. Yes, we are far from a free market system and the system is very much set up to hurt the little guy - but that's precisely because we have big government. Taxing Apple more makes government bigger and hurts the little guy even more. The rich benefit off of big government/high taxes much more than the poor do.
You were right put to the point of confiscating people's wealth as "realized" income. The correct solution to balance the playing field is to eliminate the corporate income tax...but also the personal income tax.
Implied in all discussions about taxation is the assumption that spending is fixed and/or should never be reduced. Spending needs to be reduced.
We differ in that I believe we need a huge government. Yes it should be slashed by 50%. But it would still be huge. We need it to be large. It needs to be paid for by taxes. Income taxes are the proven way to raise this money to provide education, health care and defense.
I am literally advocating elimination of corporate taxes because we already can collect tax at the shareholder's front gate. We need not tax businesses. But, we do need to tax something, sometimes. Taxing small and medium businesses while Apple and GE pay nothing is sickening and completely, absolutely terrible.
As Apple profits are distributed to shareholders, they will pay an additional 15% federal tax plus the applicable state income tax. If the shareholder sells the stock for a profit, he or she will pay at the regular income tax level or if held for more than one year, at the capital gains rate of 15% federal plus the state tax.
Thus, Apple should be applauded by government and those who favor high tax collections. Apple is a huge generator of wealth and taxes paid!
Apple is a Hot Big Name! Bashing it, or simply mentioning it, gets attention, which what anyone making a statement wants! Thus it's another example of why dropping Big Names will always be popular….
Next Level is a Provocative Headline like this
Apple’s Tax Strategy Aims at Low-Tax States and Nations - NYTimes.com
Politicians, Media and others will milk, exploit this topic to make themselves look more Patriotic, Compassionate, Fair etc… It's all BULLSH*T until someone finds enough dirt on them… Until then the BULLSH*T Artists will continue to divert attention, going after Apple or something else...
As to paying Taxes!!! I don't want Apple to volunteer to pay more tax than their competitors, just because Apple products sell better! Accountants are supposed to exploit every legal opportunity to lower taxes for their clients! Apple is no different then anyone! Because Apple is a big company, their team of accountants is bigger than just one individual who usually needs one accountant…
As long as Apple does everything legally nobody can or should complain! If they don't like the laws that Apple is subject to, they should lobby for the change of law, so that Apple and its competitors and all big companies have to comply with those laws…
The Truth is that The Whole World is Competing, and it's done in many ways!
Chinese manipulate their currency, while pimping out their citizens to work for too little!!! Apple pays higher than usual wages according to Chinese Laws! The Chinese Pimp Government doesn't want to increase their Labor Costs, cause if they do, some other country will undercut them! It's already happening! I keep hearing that South American countries are trying to Do It For Less to attract foreign investment!!! If Apple was to be paying much higher than Chinese National Wages, than it'd be like Apple being demanded to be the best tipper!!!! But even then, Tips can't be demanded! Tips are supposed to be Voluntary!!!
Again, the reason why Apple and its competitors do business in China is because China lowered their labor costs to compete! If Chinese workers had better jobs offers than working for Apple, they'd take those better paying job!!! I.e. The Biggest Irony is that China is PEOPLE'S Republic, a Communist "Worker's Paradise", but in reality how are they different from PIMPS!!!
Mike Daisy and others in the West don't want Chinese Workers to be PROSTITUTES for the WEST! Instead of attacking Chinese Government, demanding that it protect its people, so it's a a Truly PEOPLE'S Republic, they attack Apple, because Apple is an easier target!!! What's stopping Mike Daisy, and others who think like him, from sending $$ to those Abused Chinese Workers?
Apple, like an increasing number of companies, is going International, and takes advantage of ever LEGAL opportunity to minimize its costs of doing business around the world! That's what everyone is doing. Chinese are doing business in Africa and elsewhere? Are the workers in those situations treated at least as well as workers in China? I suspect NOT! They probably treat them worse than they treat their own people in China!!! And, is the Media covering those abuses? Maybe, but not as loudly as they go after Apple! And why is that? Because Dropping the Name of Apple in the story Headlines sells better! So, is the goal of such media coverage to ease the lives of the poor workers in China or elsewhere, or is the goal to Get Attention for those News Stories, which helps sell ads?
And, the Competition for Jobs etc is not just an International Issue! US States compete with each other, trying to attract business!
Apple's Products are really popular, but that's no reason why Apple should be punished for that with higher taxes or negative PR! Passing New Laws to reflect such Globalization is way more complicated than US Health Care Reform! And look what happened with that? They are still fighting that battle! But, even if that Health Reform was accomplished, and the New Tax Laws for Businesses were paid, so that Apple and every other business paid their "Fair Share"…, there is still the rest of the world to deal with!
Chinese Currency Manipulation is probably not the only way to Cheat, or "Compete"!!!! If US Government was to get in that game, they'd bribe Apple and others with Tax Amnesty's Holidays etc… Then Other Countries would complain that US is playing dirty…. It's endless….
This article
Apple's Reported Foxconn Protest Not Actually About Apple - Forbes
Is yet another example of Selective Facts and Half Truths…
Apple's Shareholders are not just a bunch of few rich folks somewhere! It's also Many Mutual and Pension Funds, where anyone can be an investor! So AAPL Stock doing well creates a $$ for many people who then go and spend it, which creates jobs, taxes paid etc! There should be Zero Guilt About that!!! Apple didn't kill anyone for not making iPads too slowly! Apple didn't starve anyone! Yes, it's a monotonous job, but so are many other jobs! If those other jobs were better, and paid more, Apple and all International Investors would have had to pay higher wages in China!
Apple's Products are not like Oil that fuels our cars, or heats our homes! Apple and its competitors make products that make our lives more fun, more productive etc… Apple is the best among those competitors, and shouldn't be ashamed of that!!! If people don't have Apple's laptop or iOS device, they won't die, but if they don't have heat, or car to drive because gas is too expensive, then it could be a matter of survival… I.e. unlike Oil Companies, Apple is not holding a gun to anyone's head!!!
Ironically, the media tells us that The Sky Is Falling! Economies around the world are suffering, and Apple is saying that they can't make iPads fast enough!!! So, is The Sky Really Falling? Who is buying all those Apple Products around the world? No, I am not saying that there are no economic issues around the Globe, but the Media has to be held as accountable as the Politicians! I think of Media as another Branch of Power! Except, we don't elect them into offices, unless one considers our clicks, TV watching, newspaper buying a $$$ Vote!!!
USA should be PROUD of APPLE!!!! USA should find a way to have ALL it's students using iBooks of iPads so that US Students have even less excuses for not being THE BEST IN THE WORLD!!! But then someone will come out and say that US should give away iPads to poor people around the world so that they don't starve! And the whole Fairness Debate continues…..
Guess what? It's an Endless Argument!!!! And it's NOT about Liberals and Fairness, Right or Left… It's about people everywhere trying to compete, survive, and have a little fun!!!
In old days they competed with slaves and armies, occupying countries etc….
Nowadays it's just Laws and Math to make the Best Money Numbers!!! But at least nobody is shooting, no armies involved! And with Times the Taxes Laws get adjusted and the New Tricks for Competition, etc will become the Next Battle Ground!!!
Too many people are counting Apple's Money, and opining on how it should be spent! Then Fairness is thrown into that discussion! Apple is going to be made to look as some Big Evil Empire! Google, Amazon and others will be The People Defenders, The Freedom Fighters! They'll feed the Media, the Rumor Mills with Anti-Apple Propaganda to slow down Apple!!! It might not look like a Dirty Below The Belt Fight… The Billionairs and Millionairs on all sides from everywhere in the world will be fighting on "our behalf" in the name of Protecting us and poor people around the world!!! In reality, it'll be yet another Method of Competing, Doing Business, trying to Slow Down The Leader, Apple!!!! The Governments worldwide will weigh in through judges in Court Cases, tariffs etc…
We differ in that I believe we need a huge government. Yes it should be slashed by 50%. But it would still be huge. We need it to be large. It needs to be paid for by taxes. Income taxes are the proven way to raise this money to provide education, health care and defense.
I am literally advocating elimination of corporate taxes because we already can collect tax at the shareholder's front gate. We need not tax businesses. But, we do need to tax something, sometimes. Taxing small and medium businesses while Apple and GE pay nothing is sickening and completely, absolutely terrible.
You defined the solution. Abolish the corporate income tax and such inequalities wouldn't exist.
Income taxes are not the proven way to provide education, health care, and defense. Look at how big government and taxation have destroyed every aspect of those points. Education is a disaster. The federal government is involved in education and has no constitutional authority to be involved. Costs have skyrocketed and quality has gone down. That's what government gets you. Even in college education, the government has guaranteed loans and the cost of college education has similarly skyrocketed.
In health care. Our health care system is horrible. Again since the government got involved costs have sky rocketed and quality has plummeted.
Defense. Look how our money is being spend. We still have a global empire that costs us trillions. Undeclared, unconstitutional wars. The military-industrial complex is making a fortune and we are broke.
Again, what about the moral argument? Societies come to together for security not for universal healthcare and education. Anything beyond security, which is why I participate in this society, is theft. I don't want government health care and I don't want government education. You have no right to propose stealing from me to pay for those wasteful programs. Think of how much better off the country would be if there was no income tax and you got to keep the fruits of your labor.
Actually its not as simple as that, if they charge too much , the companies will close up shop and move elsewhere (China). If for example a company create's employment for 500,000 people, in effect the government gets taxes from those folks that they may or may not get normally. Governments have to make it attractive for companies to exist, if not , they won't come.
Its a lot more complicated than what they make it, it isn't tax evasion, its smart business.
Comments
HI, SpamSandwich. You're quote seems to deal more with how rather than why.
I can't quote a reference, I'm just going from memory, but my recollection of why corporations exist was to preserve the business after the founder died. Before corporations, the founder owned the company and everything about it. When this person died, his associates (if any) and especially his family, stood to lose everything. But, with the invention of corporations, the business could continue. The fate of his associates, the business, the customers, and his family, had a path much more controllable and beneficial to all.
Of course, this is a memory from a discussion from years ago, but that's the gist of my recollection.
"It could pay its fair share of taxes!"
Fair share - the current favored phrase. Would that refer to the 47% of working americans that pay "zero" income tax? Or would it refer to those who receive "earned income credit" instead of paying income taxes? Or would it refer to General Electric who paid "Zero" corporate tax on over $11 billion in income? Or would it refer to Warren Buffet, Tom Daschle, Timothy Geithner and other friends of the POTUS who got caught evading taxes?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jm6032
HI, SpamSandwich. You're quote seems to deal more with how rather than why.
I can't quote a reference, I'm just going from memory, but my recollection of why corporations exist was to preserve the business after the founder died. Before corporations, the founder owned the company and everything about it. When this person died, his associates (if any) and especially his family, stood to lose everything. But, with the invention of corporations, the business could continue. The fate of his associates, the business, the customers, and his family, had a path much more controllable and beneficial to all.
Of course, this is a memory from a discussion from years ago, but that's the gist of my recollection.
That may be true, but there was also the limitation or separation of liability issue that was mentioned.
Tax avoidance certainly wasn't the reason, that's only a benefit.
if I had a successful little company earning $10 million / year, with say 5 employees, you better believe the government will expect a share of my money. What's unfair is, if I make $10 billion / year, I can afford a white shoe tax engineer law firm (roughly $50 million/yr) to stonewash my tax bill down to zero percent. That's WRONG!! Megacorps should not have this advantage over small business.
The solution is to eliminate corporate tax and concentrate on collecting a percentage of wealthy people's realized income. Don't do it on the business side. Do it on the shareholder side. It's easier and demonstrably works better.
Tax minimization is a better word than tax avoidance and it is the duty of a company towards its shareholders to do so as thoroughly as is legal.
That said, wouldn't it be great for the USA - for future prosperity - if Apple could find a way of channeling some of that 110 billion into education trust funds, research endowments, into long-term productive investments?
Quote:
Originally Posted by libertyforall
Good for Apple -- no corporation pays any taxes, it is always a cost passed on to consumers in the cost of products!
No person or company should pay more taxes than they can find out how to minimize their tax burden! Kudos for finding ways to lower strangling taxation. Government is too big at all levels anyways, what we need is LESS government, and the only way to do that is through LOWER TAXES!!!!!
Charging them less taxes doesn't actually bring prices down. If you're willing to pay $100 for an item, why would they charge you $90? Generally it's an issue of how many can be sold at a given price point, but if they could sell the same number of ipads at twice their current price, they would do so. Anyway now here's what you don't understand. You won't find a single example of a successful society within Western culture that uses your tax model. The second issue is that governments rarely ever contract. I don't mean the US government. I mean any government. You won't find what you consider ideal anywhere in the world, especially not in a large scale society.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970
No.
First, we're primarily talking about income taxes here.
Second, as a couple of astute posters have already pointed, corporate taxes are simply passed on the their customer. Period.
Third, many utilities are paid for directly by utility customers of which corporations are one.
Fourth, roads are typically paid for directly by gas taxes, making them essentially a usage fee which companies pay directly or indirectly anyway.
Fifth, government education is paid for by property taxes which companies pay directly or indirectly anyway
Finally, and most importantly, you assume that none of these things would be ever be possible or provided if it weren't for government and taxes. That's a fallacy.
At one point we didn't have corporate taxes, but people seem to forget that taxation on individuals was structured differently. Look at the top tax brackets in the former half of the twentieth century to see what I mean.
We should not be too harsh on those criticizing Apple for their tax strategy. Obviously, those posters knowingly and deliberately pay more taxes than they are required to, presumably for the good of society, for which we should applaud them. That must be the case - they can't all just be hypocrites.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpsro
And help pay for public education to produce future employees, roads, utilities, make up for tax incentives that were given, etc.
Unfortunately none of these things are true. You have a very rosy picture of what government does with your money. It actually wastes 99% of it or services the national debt.
Apple knows how to spend their money and pass cost savings on to the customer MUCH better than the government would know how to use that money. Apple shouldn't have even responded to that, it's so ridiculous.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bwik
if I had a successful little company earning $10 million / year, with say 5 employees, you better believe the government will expect a share of my money. What's unfair is, if I make $10 billion / year, I can afford a white shoe tax engineer law firm (roughly $50 million/yr) to stonewash my tax bill down to zero percent. That's WRONG!! Megacorps should not have this advantage over small business.
The solution is to eliminate corporate tax and concentrate on collecting a percentage of wealthy people's realized income. Don't do it on the business side. Do it on the shareholder side. It's easier and demonstrably works better.
You were right put to the point of confiscating people's wealth as "realized" income. The correct solution to balance the playing field is to eliminate the corporate income tax...but also the personal income tax.
Implied in all discussions about taxation is the assumption that spending is fixed and/or should never be reduced. Spending needs to be reduced.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmm
At one point we didn't have corporate taxes, but people seem to forget that taxation on individuals was structured differently. Look at the top tax brackets in the former half of the twentieth century to see what I mean.
Maybe you could just explain what you mean, because I don't see what you've said has to do with what I wrote at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmm
Charging them less taxes doesn't actually bring prices down. If you're willing to pay $100 for an item, why would they charge you $90? Generally it's an issue of how many can be sold at a given price point, but if they could sell the same number of ipads at twice their current price, they would do so. Anyway now here's what you don't understand. You won't find a single example of a successful society within Western culture that uses your tax model. The second issue is that governments rarely ever contract. I don't mean the US government. I mean any government. You won't find what you consider ideal anywhere in the world, especially not in a large scale society.
We had the ideal here in this country, but we lost it. Governments can contract, but the people have to want it. The EU is forcing Greece to contract. We aren't talking about lowering Apple's taxes. We are talking about what would happen if they were higher. Undoubtedly the price would be passed on to the consumer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rustyshacklefor
The hell w/ their job creation. They weren't creating jobs with billions of dollars in tax revenue. Like other large multinational corporations, they know damn well they're avoiding paying taxes with their activities.
Apple and most corporations pays their taxes as defined by law. I would not want to invest in any company or corporation that knowingly paid more in taxes than they were legally obligated to pay. If governments aren't satisfied with the revenue they receive from companies/corporations they have the means to change the tax laws.
Is this kind of thing wrong? Yes. It hurts the country in ways few people truly grasp. Is any of it Apple's fault? Hell no, how could they compete if they didn't do what every one else does? The NEED for loopholes like this to be closed has never been more apparent. You have huge companies operating at breathtaking levels of efficiency and while that helps profit, it kills the opportunity and wealth of the lowest common denominator.
Sadly our society is built on rewarding greed by equating success directly with wealth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alienzed
Is this kind of thing wrong? Yes. It hurts the country in ways few people truly grasp. Is any of it Apple's fault? Hell no, how could they compete if they didn't do what every one else does? The NEED for loopholes like this to be closed has never been more apparent. You have huge companies operating at breathtaking levels of efficiency and while that helps profit, it kills the opportunity and wealth of the lowest common denominator.
Sadly our society is built on rewarding greed by equating success directly with wealth.
Apple isn't killing your opportunity or wealth by paying less taxes. There is nothing wrong with making a profit on selling a good product. That's not greed. Greed is the military industrial complex trying to pull us into war and keep us involved to get sweetheart deals from the government. Greed is Wall St. betting on things they never should have and getting bailed out by the tax payers. That's greed and it's wrong. That's not Apple.
How exactly could Apple paying more taxes create opportunity for poor people? And what about the moral argument here? Is right to steal money from Apple who earned what they have to give it to somebody who has been less fortunate. Yes, we are far from a free market system and the system is very much set up to hurt the little guy - but that's precisely because we have big government. Taxing Apple more makes government bigger and hurts the little guy even more. The rich benefit off of big government/high taxes much more than the poor do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970
You were right put to the point of confiscating people's wealth as "realized" income. The correct solution to balance the playing field is to eliminate the corporate income tax...but also the personal income tax.
Implied in all discussions about taxation is the assumption that spending is fixed and/or should never be reduced. Spending needs to be reduced.
We differ in that I believe we need a huge government. Yes it should be slashed by 50%. But it would still be huge. We need it to be large. It needs to be paid for by taxes. Income taxes are the proven way to raise this money to provide education, health care and defense.
I am literally advocating elimination of corporate taxes because we already can collect tax at the shareholder's front gate. We need not tax businesses. But, we do need to tax something, sometimes. Taxing small and medium businesses while Apple and GE pay nothing is sickening and completely, absolutely terrible.
As Apple profits are distributed to shareholders, they will pay an additional 15% federal tax plus the applicable state income tax. If the shareholder sells the stock for a profit, he or she will pay at the regular income tax level or if held for more than one year, at the capital gains rate of 15% federal plus the state tax.
Thus, Apple should be applauded by government and those who favor high tax collections. Apple is a huge generator of wealth and taxes paid!
Apple is a Hot Big Name! Bashing it, or simply mentioning it, gets attention, which what anyone making a statement wants! Thus it's another example of why dropping Big Names will always be popular….
Next Level is a Provocative Headline like this
Apple’s Tax Strategy Aims at Low-Tax States and Nations - NYTimes.com
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/29/business/apples-tax-strategy-aims-at-low-tax-states-and-nations.html?_r=3&pagewanted=all ;
Or like this
Apple's Reported Foxconn Protest Not Actually About Apple - Forbes
http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2012/04/28/apples-reported-foxconn-protest-not-actually-about-apple/ ;
Politicians, Media and others will milk, exploit this topic to make themselves look more Patriotic, Compassionate, Fair etc… It's all BULLSH*T until someone finds enough dirt on them… Until then the BULLSH*T Artists will continue to divert attention, going after Apple or something else...
As to paying Taxes!!! I don't want Apple to volunteer to pay more tax than their competitors, just because Apple products sell better! Accountants are supposed to exploit every legal opportunity to lower taxes for their clients! Apple is no different then anyone! Because Apple is a big company, their team of accountants is bigger than just one individual who usually needs one accountant…
As long as Apple does everything legally nobody can or should complain! If they don't like the laws that Apple is subject to, they should lobby for the change of law, so that Apple and its competitors and all big companies have to comply with those laws…
The Truth is that The Whole World is Competing, and it's done in many ways!
Chinese manipulate their currency, while pimping out their citizens to work for too little!!! Apple pays higher than usual wages according to Chinese Laws! The Chinese Pimp Government doesn't want to increase their Labor Costs, cause if they do, some other country will undercut them! It's already happening! I keep hearing that South American countries are trying to Do It For Less to attract foreign investment!!! If Apple was to be paying much higher than Chinese National Wages, than it'd be like Apple being demanded to be the best tipper!!!! But even then, Tips can't be demanded! Tips are supposed to be Voluntary!!!
Again, the reason why Apple and its competitors do business in China is because China lowered their labor costs to compete! If Chinese workers had better jobs offers than working for Apple, they'd take those better paying job!!! I.e. The Biggest Irony is that China is PEOPLE'S Republic, a Communist "Worker's Paradise", but in reality how are they different from PIMPS!!!
Mike Daisy and others in the West don't want Chinese Workers to be PROSTITUTES for the WEST! Instead of attacking Chinese Government, demanding that it protect its people, so it's a a Truly PEOPLE'S Republic, they attack Apple, because Apple is an easier target!!! What's stopping Mike Daisy, and others who think like him, from sending $$ to those Abused Chinese Workers?
Apple, like an increasing number of companies, is going International, and takes advantage of ever LEGAL opportunity to minimize its costs of doing business around the world! That's what everyone is doing. Chinese are doing business in Africa and elsewhere? Are the workers in those situations treated at least as well as workers in China? I suspect NOT! They probably treat them worse than they treat their own people in China!!! And, is the Media covering those abuses? Maybe, but not as loudly as they go after Apple! And why is that? Because Dropping the Name of Apple in the story Headlines sells better! So, is the goal of such media coverage to ease the lives of the poor workers in China or elsewhere, or is the goal to Get Attention for those News Stories, which helps sell ads?
And, the Competition for Jobs etc is not just an International Issue! US States compete with each other, trying to attract business!
Apple's Products are really popular, but that's no reason why Apple should be punished for that with higher taxes or negative PR! Passing New Laws to reflect such Globalization is way more complicated than US Health Care Reform! And look what happened with that? They are still fighting that battle! But, even if that Health Reform was accomplished, and the New Tax Laws for Businesses were paid, so that Apple and every other business paid their "Fair Share"…, there is still the rest of the world to deal with!
Chinese Currency Manipulation is probably not the only way to Cheat, or "Compete"!!!! If US Government was to get in that game, they'd bribe Apple and others with Tax Amnesty's Holidays etc… Then Other Countries would complain that US is playing dirty…. It's endless….
This article
Apple's Reported Foxconn Protest Not Actually About Apple - Forbes
http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2012/04/28/apples-reported-foxconn-protest-not-actually-about-apple/
Is yet another example of Selective Facts and Half Truths…
Apple's Shareholders are not just a bunch of few rich folks somewhere! It's also Many Mutual and Pension Funds, where anyone can be an investor! So AAPL Stock doing well creates a $$ for many people who then go and spend it, which creates jobs, taxes paid etc! There should be Zero Guilt About that!!! Apple didn't kill anyone for not making iPads too slowly! Apple didn't starve anyone! Yes, it's a monotonous job, but so are many other jobs! If those other jobs were better, and paid more, Apple and all International Investors would have had to pay higher wages in China!
Apple's Products are not like Oil that fuels our cars, or heats our homes! Apple and its competitors make products that make our lives more fun, more productive etc… Apple is the best among those competitors, and shouldn't be ashamed of that!!! If people don't have Apple's laptop or iOS device, they won't die, but if they don't have heat, or car to drive because gas is too expensive, then it could be a matter of survival… I.e. unlike Oil Companies, Apple is not holding a gun to anyone's head!!!
Ironically, the media tells us that The Sky Is Falling! Economies around the world are suffering, and Apple is saying that they can't make iPads fast enough!!! So, is The Sky Really Falling? Who is buying all those Apple Products around the world? No, I am not saying that there are no economic issues around the Globe, but the Media has to be held as accountable as the Politicians! I think of Media as another Branch of Power! Except, we don't elect them into offices, unless one considers our clicks, TV watching, newspaper buying a $$$ Vote!!!
USA should be PROUD of APPLE!!!! USA should find a way to have ALL it's students using iBooks of iPads so that US Students have even less excuses for not being THE BEST IN THE WORLD!!! But then someone will come out and say that US should give away iPads to poor people around the world so that they don't starve! And the whole Fairness Debate continues…..
Guess what? It's an Endless Argument!!!! And it's NOT about Liberals and Fairness, Right or Left… It's about people everywhere trying to compete, survive, and have a little fun!!!
In old days they competed with slaves and armies, occupying countries etc….
Nowadays it's just Laws and Math to make the Best Money Numbers!!! But at least nobody is shooting, no armies involved! And with Times the Taxes Laws get adjusted and the New Tricks for Competition, etc will become the Next Battle Ground!!!
Too many people are counting Apple's Money, and opining on how it should be spent! Then Fairness is thrown into that discussion! Apple is going to be made to look as some Big Evil Empire! Google, Amazon and others will be The People Defenders, The Freedom Fighters! They'll feed the Media, the Rumor Mills with Anti-Apple Propaganda to slow down Apple!!! It might not look like a Dirty Below The Belt Fight… The Billionairs and Millionairs on all sides from everywhere in the world will be fighting on "our behalf" in the name of Protecting us and poor people around the world!!! In reality, it'll be yet another Method of Competing, Doing Business, trying to Slow Down The Leader, Apple!!!! The Governments worldwide will weigh in through judges in Court Cases, tariffs etc…
Happy Restarts, Syncing & Backups to Everyone!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by bwik
We differ in that I believe we need a huge government. Yes it should be slashed by 50%. But it would still be huge. We need it to be large. It needs to be paid for by taxes. Income taxes are the proven way to raise this money to provide education, health care and defense.
I am literally advocating elimination of corporate taxes because we already can collect tax at the shareholder's front gate. We need not tax businesses. But, we do need to tax something, sometimes. Taxing small and medium businesses while Apple and GE pay nothing is sickening and completely, absolutely terrible.
You defined the solution. Abolish the corporate income tax and such inequalities wouldn't exist.
Income taxes are not the proven way to provide education, health care, and defense. Look at how big government and taxation have destroyed every aspect of those points. Education is a disaster. The federal government is involved in education and has no constitutional authority to be involved. Costs have skyrocketed and quality has gone down. That's what government gets you. Even in college education, the government has guaranteed loans and the cost of college education has similarly skyrocketed.
In health care. Our health care system is horrible. Again since the government got involved costs have sky rocketed and quality has plummeted.
Defense. Look how our money is being spend. We still have a global empire that costs us trillions. Undeclared, unconstitutional wars. The military-industrial complex is making a fortune and we are broke.
Again, what about the moral argument? Societies come to together for security not for universal healthcare and education. Anything beyond security, which is why I participate in this society, is theft. I don't want government health care and I don't want government education. You have no right to propose stealing from me to pay for those wasteful programs. Think of how much better off the country would be if there was no income tax and you got to keep the fruits of your labor.
Actually its not as simple as that, if they charge too much , the companies will close up shop and move elsewhere (China). If for example a company create's employment for 500,000 people, in effect the government gets taxes from those folks that they may or may not get normally. Governments have to make it attractive for companies to exist, if not , they won't come.
Its a lot more complicated than what they make it, it isn't tax evasion, its smart business.