Apple accused of sidestepping taxes, company counters by touting job creation

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  • Reply 181 of 224
    jragostajragosta Posts: 10,473member


     


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post


     


     


    Excellent find. The Forbes guy is spot on. (Apple's "Provision for Taxes" based on estimated 2011 income is $8.3B, not the reported "Cash Taxes Paid" of $3.3B, which reflects the actual earnings from 2010).


     


    The NYT article also makes three other assertions that are plainly wrong or incendiary:


     


    (i) It says that Apple does not provide data on US versus foreign taxes paid. Wrong. Apple does so, in Table 22 (see its footnote under "Income Taxes");


     


    (ii) It quotes an "ex-Treasury department expert" as saying that Apple's allocated earnings for the US should be closer to 50% (than Apple's claim of 30%). Quite apart from the fact that no analysis or explanation is offered for why this should be the case, this is tantamount to implying that the largest firm in the world (by mkt cap) and its auditors are engaged in a massive tax fraud -- a pretty incendiary implication;


     


    (iii) The article makes a claim that taxes can be deferred indefinitely -- that is a ridiculous assertion. Any executive that belives that runs the risk of ending up in jail.



     


    The New York Times is a joke. They haven't done serious journalism for years - if not decades.




    First they tried to convict Apple in the court of public opinion over working conditions in China. It was found that Daisey was flat out lying (but no retraction from the NYT).




    Then, they tried to convict Apple in the court of public opinion over Greenpeace's claims that Apple was a 'dirty' company. It was found that Greenpeace was lying (but no retraction from the NYT).




    Now, they publish bogus tax information to try to convict Apple in the court of public opinion. As Forbes showed, they're lying this time, too (but, again, no retraction).



    See a trend? I wonder which NYT official is short Apple.

  • Reply 182 of 224
    cvaldes1831cvaldes1831 Posts: 1,832member


     


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by stelligent View Post


    A day late, dude. A day late.



     


    Which is appropriate for the person to whom I was responding.


     


    image

  • Reply 183 of 224


     


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by muppetry View Post




    Quote:

    Originally Posted by I am a Zither Zather Zuzz View Post


     


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by stelligent View Post


     


     




    What is Apple failing to comply with?



     


     


    They do not pay the amount of taxes intended by the various tax codes.  


     


    Instead, they slice and dice otherwise innocuous provisions and set up huge inefficient edifices in order to exploit provisions in a manner never intended when they were drafted.


     


    But you knew that.





    That's not what he asked.



    But you knew that.


     


    He asked what they are failing to comply with.


     


    I answered thta they are failing to comply with the intentions of the various tax codes.


     


    He and you may not have thought that the spirit and intentions of laws matter for much.  But to some, the spirit of the law is to be followed as well as the letter.  To do otherwise is to exploit unintended loopholes.

  • Reply 184 of 224


     


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post


     


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by I am a Zither Zather Zuzz View Post


     


     


     


    Apple's owners pay them.  70% or more are institutional investors.


     


    To say anything else is a stretch.



     


    Nonsense. It is factored into the prices Apple charges its consumers.



     


    Supply and demand are the factors that determine retail prices.  

  • Reply 185 of 224


     


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by stelligent View Post


     


     




    Nonsense. That's not how prices are set at any company. To believe otherwise shows a misunderstanding of everything from market analysis, product management to taxes.



     


    Groan.


     


    You've obviously never heard of basic ideas such as free cash flow (an after-corporate tax concept), its relation to ROIC (an after-corporate tax concept), cost of capital -- i.e., returns expected by investors (an after-corporate tax concept), and their links to cost-plus pricing.


     


    Please keep your ignorance to yourself.

  • Reply 186 of 224


     


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by I am a Zither Zather Zuzz View Post


     


     


    Supply and demand are the factors that determine retail prices.  



     


    At this point, you (along with a couple of others) are simply basking in your ignorance. Please stop with your pointless, platitudinous one-liners.


     


    My preference is (honestly) to not respond to the inane -- and almost always anti-Apple -- stuff that you regularly keep posting in this Forum. But when mentioned by name, I have no choice. I do not like putting people on the "ignore" list.

  • Reply 187 of 224
    jragostajragosta Posts: 10,473member


     


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by I am a Zither Zather Zuzz View Post


     


     


    He asked what they are failing to comply with.


     


    I answered thta they are failing to comply with the intentions of the various tax codes.


     


    He and you may not have thought that the spirit and intentions of laws matter for much.  But to some, the spirit of the law is to be followed as well as the letter.  To do otherwise is to exploit unintended loopholes.



     


    Please explain how Apple is supposed to comply with the 'spirit' of the tax code. Tell us specifically what sections of the code Apple is following the letter of rather than the spirit and what they should do to change it. Do you realize how inane your suggestion sounds? The tax law is written in a way that is meant to be followed. You can't say "well, it says this is what I should pay, but the spirit of the law is different". And what if the spirit of the law is for Apple to pay LESS than the letter of the law says? Should Apple start underpaying?



    And please tell us how much more of your income you're going to be donating to the Federal Government because you think you should pay more than what the law requires.

  • Reply 188 of 224
    haarhaar Posts: 563member
    to quote "spittingangel" from the arstechnia forums on this topic...

    " I thought there was an apple TAX" /rimshot

    that is the best comment that i have seen... BTW i have not read all 188 comments so I not know if anyone else has thought this...
  • Reply 189 of 224


    This is ironic, since Apple is fine about charging us consumers the "Apple Tax".

  • Reply 190 of 224
    cvaldes1831cvaldes1831 Posts: 1,832member


     


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by I am a Zither Zather Zuzz View Post


    He asked what they are failing to comply with.


     


    I answered thta they are failing to comply with the intentions of the various tax codes.


     


    He and you may not have thought that the spirit and intentions of laws matter for much.  But to some, the spirit of the law is to be followed as well as the letter.  To do otherwise is to exploit unintended loopholes.



    You are wrong.


     


    Apple's tax returns are being accepted by the various agencies (e.g, IRS, Franchise Tax Board). The tax code says stuff like "Here is the basic tax rate. Here are things that will change your taxes. Are you married? Do you have children? A house with a mortgage?" Et cetera. If you take your mortgage interest as a deduction, you aren't "cheating the system." The system was created to encourage home ownership. Lots of medical bills? Well, you can write some of those off, but only if it's a fairly large percentage of your income.


     


    Same with corporations. 


     


    The loopholes and exceptions were created by people for a reason.


     


    Remember that Apple pays big bucks to have someone look at their books. When Apple goes to pay their taxes, they don't just make up a number and say, "yeah, that's what we feel like paying this year." Their external auditors say, "hey Apple, show us your tax return and we'll let you know if complies to current tax code before you file it."

  • Reply 191 of 224
    tallest skiltallest skil Posts: 43,388member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by xxSampleXX View Post

    This is ironic, since Apple is fine about charging us consumers the "Apple Tax".


     


    Let's see, since you joined your posts have been:



    "A phone is not a real computer", the phrase "Apple polishers" has been used, and now you're on about something that hasn't been true since the 1990s.


     


    It's like someone did a seance to revive slapppy but was caught by the feds halfway through so only part of the essence came back.

  • Reply 192 of 224
    stelligentstelligent Posts: 2,680member


     


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post


     


     


    Groan.


     


    You've obviously never heard of basic ideas such as free cash flow (an after-corporate tax concept), its relation to ROIC (an after-corporate tax concept), cost of capital -- i.e., returns expected by investors (an after-corporate tax concept), and their links to cost-plus pricing.


     


    Please keep your ignorance to yourself.



     




    The old "throw some jargon" trick may work on some people. But in this instance, it simply shows you do not participate in pricing decisions in any company.


     


    BTW, to say cost of capital implies returns expected by investors might be the most stupid thing ever written here. But I'll give you a break on that because this is more likely a case of poor writing rather than ignorance (but who knows given your history).  And FYI, rate of returns is NOT strictly an after-tax concept (I can't help you if you insist otherwise).


     


     

  • Reply 193 of 224


    There are no accusations of any wrong doing.  Apple has structured it's business to minimize taxes just like every other company.  Last time I check there is no duty to pay more taxes than you owe. Maybe the story is that laws need to change.  Apple would not be acting in the best interest of it's shareholders if it ignored the advise of it tax lawyers and accountants.

  • Reply 194 of 224
    stelligentstelligent Posts: 2,680member


     


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by I am a Zither Zather Zuzz View Post


     


     


    Supply and demand are the factors that determine retail prices.  



     




    Quite honestly, dude, that is neither meaningful nor accurate. But, as a vague and general concept, it's an improvement over the notion that tax considerations are key to setting prices.

  • Reply 195 of 224
    SpamSandwichSpamSandwich Posts: 33,407member


     


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by halhiker View Post


     


     


    Or maybe they should just legalize gambling and prostitution.  Screw Nevada.



     


    You forgot following the will of the voters and also legalizing cannibas. California is a real mess politically, but even with the majority Democrat leanings of the state hasn't provided them with enough foresight or rationale to allow such measures. I think it probably has more to do with police unions and prison guard unions than common sense.

  • Reply 196 of 224
    SpamSandwichSpamSandwich Posts: 33,407member
    hunabku wrote: »
    <p> Wow the country which once revolted because of being taxed is now the heaviest taxer in the world!  Today we revolt when others don't do as they should and bend over, as it were, for the King and his military.</p><p>  </p><p> I'm sure our forefathers are spinning in their graves.</p>

    Like twisters.
  • Reply 197 of 224
    razorpitrazorpit Posts: 1,796member


     


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Hunabku View Post


    Wow the country which once revolted because of being taxed is now the heaviest taxer in the world!  Today we revolt when others don't do as they should and bend over, as it were, for the King and his military.


     


    I'm sure our forefathers are spinning in their graves.



     


     


     


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post





    Like twisters.


     


    Hey would that be considered clean energy?  image

  • Reply 198 of 224
    rogifanrogifan Posts: 10,669member
    razorpit wrote: »
    <p>  </p><div class="quote-container"> <span>Quote:</span> <div class="quote-block"> Originally Posted by <strong>nagromme</strong> <a href="/t/149722/apple-accused-of-sidestepping-taxes-company-counters-by-touting-job-creation#post_2102703"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" /></a><br /> <br /> <p> Let’s hope this is the tip of the iceberg for constant media stories revealing how corporations and the very wealthiest dodge taxes, resulting (inevitably) in a greater share of the load being borne by the rest of us.</p> </div></div><p> Unfortunately I'm sure it will only be the beginning.  This year is an election year and someone "big" has absolutely no chance at re-election unless they can successfully project a massive class warfare.</p><p>  </p><p>  </p><div class="quote-container"> <span>Quote:</span> <div class="quote-block"> Originally Posted by <strong>SpamSandwich</strong> <a href="/t/149722/apple-accused-of-sidestepping-taxes-company-counters-by-touting-job-creation#post_2102708"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" /></a><br /> <br /> <p>  </p> <p>  </p> <p> An individual could incorporate and there are a number of strategies for minimizing taxes legally. For one thing, have your employer hire you as a consultant and take advantage in that way. In my opinion, a person who does not take advantage of what is available to them to save money is a fool. As they say, "It's not what you make, it's how much you keep".</p> </div></div><p>  </p><p>  </p><p>  </p><div class="quote-container"> <span>Quote:</span> <div class="quote-block"> Originally Posted by <strong>I am a Zither Zather Zuzz</strong> <a href="/t/149722/apple-accused-of-sidestepping-taxes-company-counters-by-touting-job-creation#post_2102705"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" /></a><br /> <br /> <p> Ok.  so Apple does a lot of good things.</p> <p>  </p> <p> But it could do one more good thing:  It could pay its fair share of taxes!</p> </div></div><p> Like most of the higher-ups in the Obama administration right?  Since they've set such a good example...</p><p>  </p><p>  </p><div class="quote-container"> <span>Quote:</span> <div class="quote-block"> Originally Posted by <strong>rustyshacklefor</strong> <a href="/t/149722/apple-accused-of-sidestepping-taxes-company-counters-by-touting-job-creation#post_2102714"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" /></a><br /> <br /> <p> The hell w/ their job creation.  They weren't creating jobs with billions of dollars in tax revenue.  Like other large multinational corporations, they know damn well they're avoiding paying taxes with their activities. </p> </div></div><p> To hell with job creation?  In this economy?  They aren't creating new jobs?  I think you need to tai a look at things like data centers, head quarters, developers, etc. and rethink your statement.</p><p>  </p><p>  </p><div class="quote-container"> <span>Quote:</span> <div class="quote-block"> Originally Posted by <strong>hmm</strong> <a href="/t/149722/apple-accused-of-sidestepping-taxes-company-counters-by-touting-job-creation#post_2102727"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" /></a><br /> <br /> <p>  </p> <p>  </p> <p> You need to consider something here. Apple is a big company, so even a small percentage is a lot of money. It wouldn't matter what percentage California charges. Apple would avoid it if possible simply because you're talking about a lot of money. All your statement indicates is that you typed the first thing that came to mind. Apple is trying to avoid taxes, so taxes must be too high, right? California does have some issues, but your solution wouldn't change anything. </p> </div></div><p> Some issues?  Seriously?  California is a disaster when it comes to taxes and regulations.  FInally the budget shortfalls are starting to show just how bad of shape it is in.</p><p>  </p><p>  </p><div class="quote-container"> <span>Quote:</span> <div class="quote-block"> Originally Posted by <strong>whatyouneed</strong> <a href="/t/149722/apple-accused-of-sidestepping-taxes-company-counters-by-touting-job-creation#post_2102730"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" /></a><br /> <br /> <p>  </p> <p> I assume that you own Apple products since you post here. What do you think will happen if the government raises taxes on corporations? They will raise prices. That's all corporate taxation does - makes goods more expensive for consumers. </p> <p>  </p> <p> Apple pays way too much in tax. Apple is a great company that has gotten where they are by hard work and innovation. The media should focus on how our government and Fed collude with the military-industrial complex, medical-industrial complex, and Wall St. to waste all of our tax dollars.</p> <p>  </p> <p> Apple is being used as a scape-goat for the massive debt-bomb that is blowing up the country. THEY ARE PAYING BILLIONS INTO THE SYSTEM, let's focus on those who suck trillions out of the system. Bailouts?</p> </div></div><p> I'm beginning to think Steve really pissed Obama off at that meeting they all had about a year ago.  With everything else going on in the economy, all this attention on Apple all of a sudden is laughable at best.</p><p>  </p><p>  </p><div class="quote-container"> <span>Quote:</span> <div class="quote-block"> Originally Posted by <strong>Rogifan</strong> <a href="/t/149722/apple-accused-of-sidestepping-taxes-company-counters-by-touting-job-creation#post_2102736"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" /></a><br /> <br /> I'm still waiting for the New York Times to do an analysis on GE's taxes, or the billions in back taxes that Berkshire Hathway, aka Warren Buffett are refusing to pay. Of course that's not good click bait like Apple is.</div></div><p> This is true on so many levels it makes me sick to read some of the "righteous" posts here.</p><p>  </p><p>  </p><p>  </p><p> I started reading these posts, marking a few to comment on before it became obviously clear there are groups of people here who have real jobs and/or own companies (large or small it does not matter), and then there are those who live in a phantasy land.  The second group should sue their schools for their sever lack of understanding of economics.  How someone can argue that even though Apple is doing nothing illegal or different from any other global company, they are still wrong, is beyond me.  Stop "us versus them" mentality and look at the whole picture.  As much as I despise GE, I applaud them for not paying taxes.  I'd rather them keep and use the money they earned for something better than what the government could do with it.  Our current tax scheme is incredibly out of date and should be rebuilt from the ground up.  I don't agree with Ron Paul on a lot of stuff however he's right on taxes...</p><p>  </p>
    Yes build it from the ground up. Get rid of corporate income taxes and personal taxes should migrate to either a flat tax or consumption tax. Ad another thing the US government could do is tie spending to GDP, say, spending can not be more than 18 or 20 percent of GDP. That would help job creation and get our fiscal house in order.
  • Reply 199 of 224
    SpamSandwichSpamSandwich Posts: 33,407member
    jragosta wrote: »
    <p>  </p><div class="quote-container"> <span>Quote:</span> <div class="quote-block"> Originally Posted by <strong>anantksundaram</strong> <a href="/t/149722/apple-accused-of-sidestepping-taxes-company-counters-by-touting-job-creation/160#post_2102999"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" /></a><br /> <br /> <p>  </p> <p>  </p> <p> Excellent find. The <em>Forbes</em> guy is spot on. (Apple's "Provision for Taxes" based on estimated 2011 income is<em><strong> $8.3B</strong></em>, not the reported "Cash Taxes Paid" of $3.3B, which reflects the actual earnings from 2010).</p> <p>  </p> <p> The NYT article also makes three other assertions that are plainly wrong or incendiary:</p> <p>  </p> <p> (i) It says that Apple does not provide data on US versus foreign taxes paid. Wrong. Apple does so, in Table 22 (see its footnote under "Income Taxes");</p> <p>  </p> <p> (ii) It quotes an "ex-Treasury department expert" as saying that Apple's allocated earnings for the US should be closer to 50% (than Apple's claim of 30%). Quite apart from the fact that no analysis or explanation is offered for why this should be the case, this is tantamount to implying that the largest firm in the world (by mkt cap) and its auditors are engaged in a massive tax fraud -- a pretty incendiary implication;</p> <p>  </p> <p> (iii) The article makes a claim that taxes can be deferred indefinitely -- that is a ridiculous assertion. Any executive that belives that runs the risk of ending up in jail.</p> </div></div><p>  </p><p> The New York Times is a joke. They haven't done serious journalism for years - if not decades.</p><p> <br /> First they tried to convict Apple in the court of public opinion over working conditions in China. It was found that Daisey was flat out lying (but no retraction from the NYT).</p><p> <br /> Then, they tried to convict Apple in the court of public opinion over Greenpeace's claims that Apple was a 'dirty' company. It was found that Greenpeace was lying (but no retraction from the NYT).</p><p> <br /> Now, they publish bogus tax information to try to convict Apple in the court of public opinion. As Forbes showed, they're lying this time, too (but, again, no retraction).<br /> <br /> See a trend? I wonder which NYT official is short Apple.</p>

    I wouldn't credit any of them with the intelligence or foresight to have invested in AAPL to begin with.
  • Reply 200 of 224
    SpamSandwichSpamSandwich Posts: 33,407member
    <p>  </p><div class="quote-container"> <span>Quote:</span> <div class="quote-block"> Originally Posted by <strong>I am a Zither Zather Zuzz</strong> <a href="/t/149722/apple-accused-of-sidestepping-taxes-company-counters-by-touting-job-creation/160#post_2103055"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" /></a><br /> <br /> <p>  </p> <p>  </p> <p> Supply and demand are the factors that determine retail prices.  </p> </div></div><p>  </p><p> At this point, you (along with a couple of others) are simply basking in your ignorance. Please stop with your pointless, platitudinous one-liners.</p><p>  </p><p> My preference is (honestly) to not respond to the inane -- and almost always anti-Apple -- stuff that you regularly keep posting in this Forum. But when mentioned by name, I have no choice. I do not like putting people on the "ignore" list.</p>

    I love the ignore list. It immediately cleared up my sinus headaches.
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