Solutions are simple. Most operations classify fundraising under education because they "acquaint the citizen with their recent efforts to save the planet". The IRS should declare that any attempts at solicitations of funds by a non-profit organization that are masked under the education classification, be correctly categorized as fundraising, since more than 50% of funds received are used for more fundraising, they must show their contacts and supporters the real breakdown of expenditures. That would stop most of this nonsense in its tracks.
That being said, the heightened shrillness of their histrionics is heartening. The fact that they feel it necessary to pour so much effort into this means they are not seeing the traction they want among their supporters. Even if a couple hundred thousand tweeters support them - tweeting is cheap/free. It is meaningless and they know it. All of this is geared to generate media attention, but the general public is becoming more and more disillusioned with MSM and more skeptical about stuff like this. So they are trying to climb a slippery slope and losing ground in spite of increased effort.
"Awareness", a term that became bastardized by activists (of all stripes incidentally) to justify public antics, is like any other stimulus. Too much and it loses its effectiveness. Good competent propagandists understand this and vary the attack to keep the message fresh and the stimulus viable. It is painfully evident that GP simply has no one competent to manage their strategies and thus their message becomes anemic and ineffective - bordering on annoying.
But when your message, your modis and your effectiveness are all compromised you do desperate things.
See above. There is a good way to tie into Apple's mindshare and a bad way. All Greenpeace is doing is sending the following messages to the world:
1. Don't bother spending money on being green, because no matter how much you do, it will never be enough for us and we'll attack you.
2. Don't worry about how much you spend or how green you are because we're going to make up numbers and present them as if they're factual. So there's no point in having good numbers since we prefer fiction.
That is NOT going to help the environmental movement over the long run.
You are the one seriously misguided here. This is all about drawing attention to the enormous amount of energy and (dirty fuel) used to run data centres. Apple is a high visibility target and by that measure is a legitimate target. I doubt Apple will hurt much from this and if the action is 'misguided' it may even work better in that the issue will get more attention, and Apple will come out looking good. The fact is that most companies are not going to go the extra mile in the name of energy efficiency and alternative fuels - it takes an outside body. People always get hot under the collar when it comes to Greenpeace and I can see why. But I can also see what Greenpeace are trying to achieve. Everyone here claim GP is just after money and yet they claim GP is shooting themselves in the foot with their misguided campaigns...
I don't really have a problem with GP. A pain in the ass, maybe, but we all know this is an area where 'the market' isn't going to regulate itself and most governments are just spineless.
So IF Apple HAD covered say 10 acres of land in NC with Solar Panels and ran the ENTIRE building from solar energy - with another acre or so of batteries to get through times when it is cloudy or, dunno if the folks at Greenpeace are aware of this, something called NIGHT TIME - then GP would be complaining about the despoiling of so many acres of untouched land and the hazardous working conditions and political strife occurring wherever it is that an acres of batteries are produced.
Also - for the folks on this an other similar foams - please, for the love of (whatever it is you love), please, STOP trying to dissuade the folks at Greenpeace with FACTS - they have NO PLACE in such an important process.
The right target is to go to china and project their images onto the walls of the forbidden city. That might be worthy of a little respect and they could get in a good ten to twenty years of meditation, while living an aesthetic life style with no worries about using too much electricity or plumbing!!
Something like 1/3 of the energy for NC is solar and much of the rest is biogas.
One minor correction:
Actually none of the power for the Maiden NC facility is currently solar or biogas. They are planning it. The most optimistic report I've read states that as early as June 2012 the first of the planned 24 Bloom fuel cells might be switched on.
I don't think Apple Inc needs you to defend it from Greenpeace. I'm not saying I agree with their tactics all of the time and yes they can be extreme but I am grateful there is a Greenpeace in the world to help bring attention to stuff the common person just won't think about. Apple is a giant company and the policies they make and the paths they follow make an impact in the world. Protesting and making yourself heard is an American right and tradition that I hope for all our sakes never goes away. If it did we would be living in North Korea.
Actually none of the power for the Maiden NC facility is currently solar or biogas. They are planning it. The most optimistic report I've read states that as early as June 2012 the first of the planned 24 Bloom fuel cells might be switched on.
May be true, but a few months or even a year of operations is a rounding error given the likely life of the facility during which energy is used.
The right target is to go to china and project their images onto the walls of the forbidden city. That might be worthy of a little respect and they could get in a good ten to twenty years of meditation, while living an aesthetic life style with no worries about using too much electricity or plumbing!!
Some of them do go to the arctic and risk life and limb to put themselves between whales and Japanese whalers. No organization is perfect but I doubt any of the people on here bad mouthing them have done anything even remotely courageous.
Some of them do go to the arctic and risk life and limb to put themselves between whales and Japanese whalers. No organization is perfect but I doubt any of the people on here bad mouthing them have done anything even remotely courageous.
Lots of dumb people do of courageous things. Lots do courageous things for dumb reasons.
The fact that an act itself is "courageous" is meaningless.
My only problem with GP in this regard is that they are giving an advantage to Google/Android and all of the other Apple competitors. The general public is given the impression that this is an Apple problem, and by going to another manufacturer's device they are striking a blow for environmental responsibility. Apple has a long record of trying to do the right thing (remember the switch from white to brown packaging boxes way back when?), and to hold them up as a bad example is short-sighted.
Makes me wonder if GP is being bankrolled or has been infiltrated by the likes of Google or Samsung.
I'm glad I didn't have a philosophy major for a partner in 'Nam.
You -- and your partners -- had no choice but to carry out orders.
I am actually surprised that you think that the (often sophomoric) stuff that GP does falls into the same territory. I would not -- and did not -- put what you did in 'Nam (or what I may or may not have done if I was your partner or if I had volunteered v. drafted, etc.) remotely in the same league as what some of the GP lemmings do.
I would pay more attention to Greenpeace's shenanigans if it involved lots of hot naked women.
Women typically own more clothes than men (or Apple). More clothes takes more work to earn the money to buy; more workers and raw materials to manufacture; more energy for manufacture.....
I see the logic but I'll only support this green initiative if I get to pick the women.
I realize that my environmental position is not very popular among the elite and educated in the USA. I have no use for GreenPeace. Like most [add the save this or that theme name] organizations, they are more concerned with their project and funding succeeding. The FACTs are that the Greenpeace of today isn't as concerned about cleaning up the environment in any effective way, or cleaning up anything dirty. They only want to exist and have a mouthpiece platform. It's a power (pun intended) play for today's GreenPeace, and many others like them.
If GreenPeace or others like them, had any real solutions that are effective and workable in a human context, I would be a member. But these organization have no real solutions. Like a metaphor that someone used above, slightly modified, it's GreenPeace as the fly on the elephant's back. GreenPeace today cries fowl dirty air but picks on one of the most environmental friendly companies [Apple] on the planet. If Apple became 100% renewable energy, the world's air would not be clean in China or India, and the dirty air will not stay within their borders. If GreenPeace had a workable solution that everyone can agree will work, I would sign up as a GreenPeace member.
I'm sure GreenPeace won't offer any real solutions, so I'm safe from having to worry about the planet's atmosphere, since we all will die from some sort of carcinogen pollutant. I am not willing to be part of a unilateral effort to save the earth. Wake me when the rest of the developing world economies get on board to truly save the environment.
Women typically own more clothes than men (or Apple). More clothes takes more work to earn the money to buy; more workers and raw materials to manufacture; more energy for manufacture.....
I see the logic but I'll only support this green initiative if I get to pick the women.
I wonder if "Get naked, the survival of the planet depends on it!" has ever worked.
You -- and your partners -- had no choice but to carry out orders.
I am actually surprised that you think that the (often sophomoric) stuff that GP does falls into the same territory. I would not -- and did not -- put what you did in 'Nam (or what I may or may not have done if I was your partner or if I had volunteered v. drafted, etc.) remotely in the same league as what some of the GP lemmings do.
If you want to, go ahead, by all means!
There are plenty of jerk offs in the military as well. One of my buddies' father trained Navy pilots how to hunt submarines. They practiced by torpedoing whales. So if Greenpeace makes what appears to be a very intense and dangerous effort to protect whales from senseless slaughter, they have my respect, regardless of a few sophomoric stunts some of their members may have pulled.
Comments
I hope the projectors they use were hand-cranked. Don't want to add to humanity's footprint.
Solutions are simple. Most operations classify fundraising under education because they "acquaint the citizen with their recent efforts to save the planet". The IRS should declare that any attempts at solicitations of funds by a non-profit organization that are masked under the education classification, be correctly categorized as fundraising, since more than 50% of funds received are used for more fundraising, they must show their contacts and supporters the real breakdown of expenditures. That would stop most of this nonsense in its tracks.
That being said, the heightened shrillness of their histrionics is heartening. The fact that they feel it necessary to pour so much effort into this means they are not seeing the traction they want among their supporters. Even if a couple hundred thousand tweeters support them - tweeting is cheap/free. It is meaningless and they know it. All of this is geared to generate media attention, but the general public is becoming more and more disillusioned with MSM and more skeptical about stuff like this. So they are trying to climb a slippery slope and losing ground in spite of increased effort.
"Awareness", a term that became bastardized by activists (of all stripes incidentally) to justify public antics, is like any other stimulus. Too much and it loses its effectiveness. Good competent propagandists understand this and vary the attack to keep the message fresh and the stimulus viable. It is painfully evident that GP simply has no one competent to manage their strategies and thus their message becomes anemic and ineffective - bordering on annoying.
But when your message, your modis and your effectiveness are all compromised you do desperate things.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
See above. There is a good way to tie into Apple's mindshare and a bad way. All Greenpeace is doing is sending the following messages to the world:
1. Don't bother spending money on being green, because no matter how much you do, it will never be enough for us and we'll attack you.
2. Don't worry about how much you spend or how green you are because we're going to make up numbers and present them as if they're factual. So there's no point in having good numbers since we prefer fiction.
That is NOT going to help the environmental movement over the long run.
You are the one seriously misguided here. This is all about drawing attention to the enormous amount of energy and (dirty fuel) used to run data centres. Apple is a high visibility target and by that measure is a legitimate target. I doubt Apple will hurt much from this and if the action is 'misguided' it may even work better in that the issue will get more attention, and Apple will come out looking good. The fact is that most companies are not going to go the extra mile in the name of energy efficiency and alternative fuels - it takes an outside body. People always get hot under the collar when it comes to Greenpeace and I can see why. But I can also see what Greenpeace are trying to achieve. Everyone here claim GP is just after money and yet they claim GP is shooting themselves in the foot with their misguided campaigns...
I don't really have a problem with GP. A pain in the ass, maybe, but we all know this is an area where 'the market' isn't going to regulate itself and most governments are just spineless.
So IF Apple HAD covered say 10 acres of land in NC with Solar Panels and ran the ENTIRE building from solar energy - with another acre or so of batteries to get through times when it is cloudy or, dunno if the folks at Greenpeace are aware of this, something called NIGHT TIME - then GP would be complaining about the despoiling of so many acres of untouched land and the hazardous working conditions and political strife occurring wherever it is that an acres of batteries are produced.
Also - for the folks on this an other similar foams - please, for the love of (whatever it is you love), please, STOP trying to dissuade the folks at Greenpeace with FACTS - they have NO PLACE in such an important process.
These Green maniacs make me want to vomit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by peter02l
Here's a list:
Voters in North Carolina
The military-industrial complex
Oil companies
Real estate developers.
City councils
Their political representatives
US consumers
Pet owners
I am sure I have missed a few thousand.
Cowards.
The right target is to go to china and project their images onto the walls of the forbidden city. That might be worthy of a little respect and they could get in a good ten to twenty years of meditation, while living an aesthetic life style with no worries about using too much electricity or plumbing!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
Something like 1/3 of the energy for NC is solar and much of the rest is biogas.
One minor correction:
Actually none of the power for the Maiden NC facility is currently solar or biogas. They are planning it. The most optimistic report I've read states that as early as June 2012 the first of the planned 24 Bloom fuel cells might be switched on.
I don't think Apple Inc needs you to defend it from Greenpeace. I'm not saying I agree with their tactics all of the time and yes they can be extreme but I am grateful there is a Greenpeace in the world to help bring attention to stuff the common person just won't think about. Apple is a giant company and the policies they make and the paths they follow make an impact in the world. Protesting and making yourself heard is an American right and tradition that I hope for all our sakes never goes away. If it did we would be living in North Korea.
Maybe Greenpeace can disclose how much CO2 was emitted from using that high powered projector of theirs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone
One minor correction:
Actually none of the power for the Maiden NC facility is currently solar or biogas. They are planning it. The most optimistic report I've read states that as early as June 2012 the first of the planned 24 Bloom fuel cells might be switched on.
May be true, but a few months or even a year of operations is a rounding error given the likely life of the facility during which energy is used.
Quote:
Originally Posted by applecider
Cowards.
The right target is to go to china and project their images onto the walls of the forbidden city. That might be worthy of a little respect and they could get in a good ten to twenty years of meditation, while living an aesthetic life style with no worries about using too much electricity or plumbing!!
Some of them do go to the arctic and risk life and limb to put themselves between whales and Japanese whalers. No organization is perfect but I doubt any of the people on here bad mouthing them have done anything even remotely courageous.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone
Some of them do go to the arctic and risk life and limb to put themselves between whales and Japanese whalers. No organization is perfect but I doubt any of the people on here bad mouthing them have done anything even remotely courageous.
Lots of dumb people do of courageous things. Lots do courageous things for dumb reasons.
The fact that an act itself is "courageous" is meaningless.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram
Lots of dumb people do of courageous things. Lots do courageous things for dumb reasons.
The fact that an act itself is "courageous" is meaningless.
I'm glad I didn't have a philosophy major for a partner in 'Nam.
My only problem with GP in this regard is that they are giving an advantage to Google/Android and all of the other Apple competitors. The general public is given the impression that this is an Apple problem, and by going to another manufacturer's device they are striking a blow for environmental responsibility. Apple has a long record of trying to do the right thing (remember the switch from white to brown packaging boxes way back when?), and to hold them up as a bad example is short-sighted.
Makes me wonder if GP is being bankrolled or has been infiltrated by the likes of Google or Samsung.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone
I'm glad I didn't have a philosophy major for a partner in 'Nam.
You -- and your partners -- had no choice but to carry out orders.
I am actually surprised that you think that the (often sophomoric) stuff that GP does falls into the same territory. I would not -- and did not -- put what you did in 'Nam (or what I may or may not have done if I was your partner or if I had volunteered v. drafted, etc.) remotely in the same league as what some of the GP lemmings do.
If you want to, go ahead, by all means!
They are wasting perfectly good energy using a projector for this. They should protest themselves.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JollyPaul
I would pay more attention to Greenpeace's shenanigans if it involved lots of hot naked women.
Women typically own more clothes than men (or Apple). More clothes takes more work to earn the money to buy; more workers and raw materials to manufacture; more energy for manufacture.....
I see the logic but I'll only support this green initiative if I get to pick the women.
I realize that my environmental position is not very popular among the elite and educated in the USA. I have no use for GreenPeace. Like most [add the save this or that theme name] organizations, they are more concerned with their project and funding succeeding. The FACTs are that the Greenpeace of today isn't as concerned about cleaning up the environment in any effective way, or cleaning up anything dirty. They only want to exist and have a mouthpiece platform. It's a power (pun intended) play for today's GreenPeace, and many others like them.
If GreenPeace or others like them, had any real solutions that are effective and workable in a human context, I would be a member. But these organization have no real solutions. Like a metaphor that someone used above, slightly modified, it's GreenPeace as the fly on the elephant's back. GreenPeace today cries fowl dirty air but picks on one of the most environmental friendly companies [Apple] on the planet. If Apple became 100% renewable energy, the world's air would not be clean in China or India, and the dirty air will not stay within their borders. If GreenPeace had a workable solution that everyone can agree will work, I would sign up as a GreenPeace member.
I'm sure GreenPeace won't offer any real solutions, so I'm safe from having to worry about the planet's atmosphere, since we all will die from some sort of carcinogen pollutant. I am not willing to be part of a unilateral effort to save the earth. Wake me when the rest of the developing world economies get on board to truly save the environment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristophB
Women typically own more clothes than men (or Apple). More clothes takes more work to earn the money to buy; more workers and raw materials to manufacture; more energy for manufacture.....
I see the logic but I'll only support this green initiative if I get to pick the women.
I wonder if "Get naked, the survival of the planet depends on it!" has ever worked.
"Worked as a pick-up line, you mean?"
No, just worked.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram
You -- and your partners -- had no choice but to carry out orders.
I am actually surprised that you think that the (often sophomoric) stuff that GP does falls into the same territory. I would not -- and did not -- put what you did in 'Nam (or what I may or may not have done if I was your partner or if I had volunteered v. drafted, etc.) remotely in the same league as what some of the GP lemmings do.
If you want to, go ahead, by all means!
There are plenty of jerk offs in the military as well. One of my buddies' father trained Navy pilots how to hunt submarines. They practiced by torpedoing whales. So if Greenpeace makes what appears to be a very intense and dangerous effort to protect whales from senseless slaughter, they have my respect, regardless of a few sophomoric stunts some of their members may have pulled.