Nikon or Canon cannot do without their professional cameras for marketing reasons, though the numbers produced are small. Professional cameras are very visible in the media. Not so high-end computers. So, can Apple afford to leave their professional customers out in the desert? I'm afraid they can, because 95% of all Apple user don't care whether Apple produces any high-end computers or not. Purely economic reasons will decide. Still, I dream of a new MacPro, accompanied by a 40' Apple Retina Cinema display.
I'm with you on the need for more power. What if Apple released a Thunderbolt device that could host additional GPUs (PCIe slots)? Could you chain them together to create the capacity you need? It seems that the Thunderbolt port has the BW you need that is currently in the Mac Pro tower. You just need an enclosure to attach to any Thunderbolt-capable machine to add in additional compute cycles (processor or GPU), right?
I think that the next-gen of the tower will be a cascading of enclosures using Thunderbolt. I think you will like it once it is here!
Your point is naive. Businesses have for many years committed big dollars to workflows (that includes hardware, Mac-only software, skills training and so forth) that rely upon the Mac Pro, so it's not as simple as simply "switching" to Linux or Windows. Or using an outside render farm - which is a laughable alternative, and you should know that there are many many feature films, TVCs, television shows that cut, graded and output for distribution by small post-houses. Your inability to consider the needs of design and productions professionals is, ironically, elitist.
Oh i consider. I work for broadcasting company (not that it really maters anyway) and we do our work on i7 iMac where we used to work on Mac Pros. So again my point stands. It's a tool and your inability to do the job with the tools you are given is ironically elitist.
Distributed computation and ThunderBolt graphic card expansion/storage. iMac will allow for 32GB of RAM, not sure if it can handle 64GB or not. The world is changing, for the better.
For the record, I'm not saying your work isn't important, cutting edge or otherwise doing quite well with Mac Pro workflow. I'm also not saying that Mac Pro may not be around for a generation or two longer. I do believe that cloud computing and distributed computing will ultimately outweigh the need for dedicated work stations in virtually all scenarios.
You're being redundant, and at any rate, NeXT pioneered Distributed Computing which is in OS X and his work is extremely relevant, not to mention I do FEA for Mechanical Engineering and I sure as hell won't be relying on The Cloud [Amazon or whatnot], but I will use Distributed Computing and connect other boxes for available cycles to help crunch and process what I need.
Apple speaks when they are ready to speak. They release when they are ready to release. They don't owe anyone information etc.
They are not going to change tactics because of some petition etc.
If these folks don't wait to wait then they are welcome to go buy a windows system etc. it isn't going to bother Apple if they lose those sales.
Yeah we all know how the creative pros stood by Apple blah blah. But that time is done. It died way before Steve did. The writing has been on the walls for years. Either you embrace the change or you move on.
Windows ? Over my dead body ! Never ever will that happen.
I don't agree with you at all. If there won't be an update Apple should end this rediculous endless wait and pull the Mac Pro from the Apple Store. 5000 € for currents specs is theft.
I'll go even further. If the Mac Pro will be discontinued i'll put up my Canon 5DmkII and all my lenses up for sale and choose a different line of work completely. I just wont accept that slap in the face after so many loyal years towards Apple. And i surely won't work with a toy-computer like the iMac which is disguised as an expensive useless mirror !
Overreacted ? Don't think so. I need good stuff to get serious things done. And if i am forced to watch my mirror image all day, i'll QUIT !
I agree that it's been so long since the last update and not a single word from Apple. They are so happy with iOS and all this personal devices and its success that this kind of machines are being completely ignored, or at least that's what we are perceiving.
I don't know really what to think. On one side, Apple it's been more agressive than ever in trying to get a piece of the corporate business, but it seems that its efforts are towards iOS devices more that any other thing. On the other side, Apple has been more and more focused on devices that can get the job done, but that people also uses as they're personal partner, devices that people can't get out home without them.
Deep inside I think they are going to revamp the Mac Pro with something completely different, I really doubt that Apple wants to lose their influence in Movie and Music industries with Final Cut and Logic Pro.
I'll go even further. If the Mac Pro will be discontinued i'll put up my Canon 5DmkII and all my lenses up for sale and choose a different line of work completely. I just wont accept that slap in the face after so many loyal years towards Apple. And i surely won't work with a toy-computer like the iMac which is disguised as an expensive useless mirror !
Overreacted ? Don't think so. I need good stuff to get serious things done. And if i am forced to watch my mirror image all day, i'll QUIT !
Despite you having you the right to buy or not to buy an Apple product that fit your needs you adamantly feel that Apple, a private company in a free market, doesn't have the right to make products that best suit their needs. You feel so strongly about this that you'd hinder your life buy changing careers if they found the cost of producing a product wasn't worth what they gain from its existence.
You also feel Apple owes you something. That you have been doing Apple a favour all these years as a "loyal" customer buying the Mac Pro for their benefit more than yours (despite that contradicting your previous comment).
Saying you overacted would be an understatement.
Now I understand the desire for a certain machine — even ones that don't exist — to be created most of us will a use case that want fulfilled but it's juvenile to think you are owed anything and it's selfish to think your feelings on this matter outweigh all others for a product that doesn't belong to you. Bottom line: you owe Apple nothing and they owe you nothing.
PS: Taking a hard look in a mirror might not be the worst thing you could do.
PPS: I do hope there is a new Mac Pro model coming soon.
The letter went on to say that professional software applications, such as Adobe Creative Suite 6, AVID, Protools and Smoke, require "the most powerful hardware available." In addition, creative professionals need configurable systems for their business.
So, not the Mac Pro then as it doesn't use the most powerful CPUs or GPUs available.
The $3500 Mac Pro scores 8.7. The 12-core models are around 14-15 just now but cost $5000-6000. With an update, the top score will be 21 as they don't use the $2000 Xeons.
Of course 21 is better than 7.8, it's 2.7x faster. But, that 2.7x today doesn't mean being able to do a task and not, it just means faster or slower. Give an iMac 4K ProRes on fast storage and it will work with it no problem.
Look where the 7970M is sitting, that's the latest one destined for the new iMac. 90% of the performance of a GTX 580. 2TFLOPs single precision, 136GFLOPs DP.
I'm not advocating that they get rid of the Mac Pro but I don't believe it's necessary for Apple to keep building them. When you look at the value in the iMac: 27" IPS display + equivalent performance to an 8-core 2010 Pro with a GTX 580 for $2k, why would you even consider paying over double for an equivalent Mac Pro setup?
The number of people who will spend over $3k on a computer box is insanely not-great.
Apple's neglect of the Mac Pro was especially felt last year as all of the other Mac models received upgrades adding Thunderbolt and Sandy Bridge processors. It has curiously not updated the Mac Pro since July 2010.
Sandy Bridge Xeons only came out this year. All Apple neglected to do was to give Otellini a kick square in the nadgers.
Slots are sooooo 1987. mstone, you most likely will not need slots at all. Many manufacturers are developing external boxes in which to install your existing cards, which attaches via Thunderbolt. For those who do not offer a card recycling solution, or in lieu of upgrades, they will be building Thunderbolt interfaces for boxes which implement the same functionality as cards. Yes it means the purchase of additional hardware, but what else is new?
You sound like an idiot...upgrading video cards and sound cards is a necessity for many professions. And siting Thunderbolt as a replacement is laughable...maybe in 3 yrs, but not right now for sure.
Ok. So with their boatload of cash, is whatever the gains and loses that great, that it's not worth continuing with one of the products that made Apple the company it is today.
YES I know Apple is ALL about profits, BUT those profits come from Apple zealits just like you and me. And while the i series of products is good, why noy spend a little bit of time and money with the Pro-line of products. I'm sure that the folks at Autodesk would like to see them up-dated - now that they have brought their software BACK to the Mac.
So the numbers are small. But are those small numbers worth forgetting, when it's those same SMALL numbers that not only get Apple where they are today, but GOT Apple where they are today. Forgetting the little guy, is like saying "Thanks, but no thanks" or "Thanks, but WE don't need you anymore"
Apple can fall just as fast as it climbed, just ask Apple.
Apple doesn't care, and for good reason. They can completely scrap the Mac Pro, and it won't make a shred of a blip on their financial statements.
Also, can someone explain to me who exactly needs a Mac Pro, apart from those extreme niche cases like studios who do professional 3D rendering, etc? What exactly can't a high end iMac do these days? Short of Avatar, it can even handle HD video editing, 3D rendering, etc.
There is an entire ecosystem built around high-end Macs...it's not just Apples bottom line...if 3rd party developers stop making professional-grade software for Macs, it would hurt Apple in many ways...and it would make their "migration to the enterprise" more difficult.
The mac pro fills a much needed slot in their product line. I'd be shocked if they discontinued it.
People who need what apple cannot provide for home use should just build a hackintosh.
I have many Real Mac's but built a macpro killer based around a Dual Quad Core i7 / SATA 6Gbps SSD / GTX 590 and 32Gb of ram all runs perfect and is a hell of a lot cheaper than a Mac Pro
Two pages of replies, and I'm surprised nobody has mentioned what, to me, has always been one of the most compelling arguments for the towers: Cooling.
Nothing else in the line runs as efficiently from a heat perspective. My current setup (G5 tower pending MacPro upgrade and a G5 iMac) demonstrates this: under normal circumstances the tower runs about 20-30° cooler than the iMac. Even running both processors nonstop 24-7 doing encoding tasks doesn't get it as high as the iMac does just running iTunes and Safari.
Saying that MBPs are adequate replacements is silly, power issues aside they don't have the ventillation to run heavy duty processing tasks for extended periods (I've got experience crippling two of them trying to do video on them at various points in time and overheating the processors). With the iMac and Mini being built with the same parts and in cases that are just as tight on space, you're asking for the same kinds of issues.
Further, signal can only travel across a wire so fast, hence sending data out to external drives will necessarily slow things down compared to having everything connected to the local bus (especially when you start sharing that bandwidth with ultra high resolution displays). Thunderbolt is awesome, and I'm going to make sure it's in whatever machine I purchase next, but I don't consider it a substitute for being able to have more drives local, and being able to switch them out as my needs increase over time.
Oh i consider. I work for broadcasting company (not that it really maters anyway) and we do our work on i7 iMac where we used to work on Mac Pros. So again my point stands. It's a tool and your inability to do the job with the tools you are given is ironically elitist.
Lol... this guy......
You have been put in your place in multiple posts in this thread, and yet you still keep wanting to tote your "authority". Thanks for the laughs today (if that was your intent).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaji
Two pages of replies, and I'm surprised nobody has mentioned what, to me, has always been one of the most compelling arguments for the towers: Cooling.
Nothing else in the line runs as efficiently from a heat perspective.
No doubt- my iMac does everything I need it to do- but even running Handbrake makes my iMac almost unbearably hot (to the point I have to turn my ceiling fan on). I don't do any heavier lifting that photoshop and the occasional FCPX, but I also understand there are a ton of applications that are incredibly more taxing....
Comments
Nikon or Canon cannot do without their professional cameras for marketing reasons, though the numbers produced are small. Professional cameras are very visible in the media. Not so high-end computers. So, can Apple afford to leave their professional customers out in the desert? I'm afraid they can, because 95% of all Apple user don't care whether Apple produces any high-end computers or not. Purely economic reasons will decide. Still, I dream of a new MacPro, accompanied by a 40' Apple Retina Cinema display.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kcartesius
2. It's not often that something isn't better than nothing.
Except when it's an online petition. Skill is right, it means exactly 0.
I'm with you on the need for more power. What if Apple released a Thunderbolt device that could host additional GPUs (PCIe slots)? Could you chain them together to create the capacity you need? It seems that the Thunderbolt port has the BW you need that is currently in the Mac Pro tower. You just need an enclosure to attach to any Thunderbolt-capable machine to add in additional compute cycles (processor or GPU), right?
I think that the next-gen of the tower will be a cascading of enclosures using Thunderbolt. I think you will like it once it is here!
Quote:
Originally Posted by sennen
Your point is naive. Businesses have for many years committed big dollars to workflows (that includes hardware, Mac-only software, skills training and so forth) that rely upon the Mac Pro, so it's not as simple as simply "switching" to Linux or Windows. Or using an outside render farm - which is a laughable alternative, and you should know that there are many many feature films, TVCs, television shows that cut, graded and output for distribution by small post-houses. Your inability to consider the needs of design and productions professionals is, ironically, elitist.
Oh i consider. I work for broadcasting company (not that it really maters anyway) and we do our work on i7 iMac where we used to work on Mac Pros. So again my point stands. It's a tool and your inability to do the job with the tools you are given is ironically elitist.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sennen
You obviously have no idea of the hardware requirements of the professional design/production industry.
Maybe all he watches is crappy reality programming which, to be honest, does look like it was done by a 16 year old on a laptop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slang4Art
Distributed computation and ThunderBolt graphic card expansion/storage. iMac will allow for 32GB of RAM, not sure if it can handle 64GB or not. The world is changing, for the better.
For the record, I'm not saying your work isn't important, cutting edge or otherwise doing quite well with Mac Pro workflow. I'm also not saying that Mac Pro may not be around for a generation or two longer. I do believe that cloud computing and distributed computing will ultimately outweigh the need for dedicated work stations in virtually all scenarios.
You're being redundant, and at any rate, NeXT pioneered Distributed Computing which is in OS X and his work is extremely relevant, not to mention I do FEA for Mechanical Engineering and I sure as hell won't be relying on The Cloud [Amazon or whatnot], but I will use Distributed Computing and connect other boxes for available cycles to help crunch and process what I need.
The HP Z2820 (http://shopping1.hp.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/WFS/WW-USSMBPublicStore-Site/en_US/-/USD/ViewStandardCatalog-Browse?CatalogCategoryID=mLkQ7habZDIAAAE217B1vOY6&jumpid=re_r295_shop_atlas_psg_wsgw_gen_off_6/psgpromo&psn=desktops_workstations/workstation)
Maximum RAM is 512 GB. I'd expect Apple to bump up the Mac Pro to 128 GB or even 256 GB.
The Dell Precision T7500 Fixed Workstation Maximum RAM is 192 GB.
I doubt Apple is taking this much time and not doing more than a CPU bump.
Windows ? Over my dead body ! Never ever will that happen.
I don't agree with you at all. If there won't be an update Apple should end this rediculous endless wait and pull the Mac Pro from the Apple Store. 5000 € for currents specs is theft.
I'll go even further. If the Mac Pro will be discontinued i'll put up my Canon 5DmkII and all my lenses up for sale and choose a different line of work completely. I just wont accept that slap in the face after so many loyal years towards Apple. And i surely won't work with a toy-computer like the iMac which is disguised as an expensive useless mirror !
Overreacted ? Don't think so. I need good stuff to get serious things done. And if i am forced to watch my mirror image all day, i'll QUIT !
I don't know really what to think. On one side, Apple it's been more agressive than ever in trying to get a piece of the corporate business, but it seems that its efforts are towards iOS devices more that any other thing. On the other side, Apple has been more and more focused on devices that can get the job done, but that people also uses as they're personal partner, devices that people can't get out home without them.
Deep inside I think they are going to revamp the Mac Pro with something completely different, I really doubt that Apple wants to lose their influence in Movie and Music industries with Final Cut and Logic Pro.
Despite you having you the right to buy or not to buy an Apple product that fit your needs you adamantly feel that Apple, a private company in a free market, doesn't have the right to make products that best suit their needs. You feel so strongly about this that you'd hinder your life buy changing careers if they found the cost of producing a product wasn't worth what they gain from its existence.
You also feel Apple owes you something. That you have been doing Apple a favour all these years as a "loyal" customer buying the Mac Pro for their benefit more than yours (despite that contradicting your previous comment).
Saying you overacted would be an understatement.
Now I understand the desire for a certain machine — even ones that don't exist — to be created most of us will a use case that want fulfilled but it's juvenile to think you are owed anything and it's selfish to think your feelings on this matter outweigh all others for a product that doesn't belong to you. Bottom line: you owe Apple nothing and they owe you nothing.
PS: Taking a hard look in a mirror might not be the worst thing you could do.
PPS: I do hope there is a new Mac Pro model coming soon.
So, not the Mac Pro then as it doesn't use the most powerful CPUs or GPUs available.
I don't see why not. I understand there are situations that require over 32GB of RAM but very few.
In terms of processing, the 3770K for the iMac scores a 7.8 in Cinebench multi-core rendering. The current Mac Pro scores are here:
http://www.barefeats.com/wst10.html
The $3500 Mac Pro scores 8.7. The 12-core models are around 14-15 just now but cost $5000-6000. With an update, the top score will be 21 as they don't use the $2000 Xeons.
Of course 21 is better than 7.8, it's 2.7x faster. But, that 2.7x today doesn't mean being able to do a task and not, it just means faster or slower. Give an iMac 4K ProRes on fast storage and it will work with it no problem.
As for the GPU, the 6970M is a very fast GPU:
http://www.videocardbenchmark.net/high_end_gpus.html
Look where the 7970M is sitting, that's the latest one destined for the new iMac. 90% of the performance of a GTX 580. 2TFLOPs single precision, 136GFLOPs DP.
I'm not advocating that they get rid of the Mac Pro but I don't believe it's necessary for Apple to keep building them. When you look at the value in the iMac: 27" IPS display + equivalent performance to an 8-core 2010 Pro with a GTX 580 for $2k, why would you even consider paying over double for an equivalent Mac Pro setup?
The number of people who will spend over $3k on a computer box is insanely not-great.
Sandy Bridge Xeons only came out this year. All Apple neglected to do was to give Otellini a kick square in the nadgers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac_128
Slots are sooooo 1987. mstone, you most likely will not need slots at all. Many manufacturers are developing external boxes in which to install your existing cards, which attaches via Thunderbolt. For those who do not offer a card recycling solution, or in lieu of upgrades, they will be building Thunderbolt interfaces for boxes which implement the same functionality as cards. Yes it means the purchase of additional hardware, but what else is new?
You sound like an idiot...upgrading video cards and sound cards is a necessity for many professions. And siting Thunderbolt as a replacement is laughable...maybe in 3 yrs, but not right now for sure.
Ok. So with their boatload of cash, is whatever the gains and loses that great, that it's not worth continuing with one of the products that made Apple the company it is today.
YES I know Apple is ALL about profits, BUT those profits come from Apple zealits just like you and me. And while the i series of products is good, why noy spend a little bit of time and money with the Pro-line of products. I'm sure that the folks at Autodesk would like to see them up-dated - now that they have brought their software BACK to the Mac.
So the numbers are small. But are those small numbers worth forgetting, when it's those same SMALL numbers that not only get Apple where they are today, but GOT Apple where they are today. Forgetting the little guy, is like saying "Thanks, but no thanks" or "Thanks, but WE don't need you anymore"
Apple can fall just as fast as it climbed, just ask Apple.
Skip
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy
Apple doesn't care, and for good reason. They can completely scrap the Mac Pro, and it won't make a shred of a blip on their financial statements.
Also, can someone explain to me who exactly needs a Mac Pro, apart from those extreme niche cases like studios who do professional 3D rendering, etc? What exactly can't a high end iMac do these days? Short of Avatar, it can even handle HD video editing, 3D rendering, etc.
There is an entire ecosystem built around high-end Macs...it's not just Apples bottom line...if 3rd party developers stop making professional-grade software for Macs, it would hurt Apple in many ways...and it would make their "migration to the enterprise" more difficult.
The mac pro fills a much needed slot in their product line. I'd be shocked if they discontinued it.
People who need what apple cannot provide for home use should just build a hackintosh.
I have many Real Mac's but built a macpro killer based around a Dual Quad Core i7 / SATA 6Gbps SSD / GTX 590 and 32Gb of ram all runs perfect and is a hell of a lot cheaper than a Mac Pro
Thank you so much. I am truly glad you cleared that up for everyone. What were we thinking . . . . . . ..
Nothing else in the line runs as efficiently from a heat perspective. My current setup (G5 tower pending MacPro upgrade and a G5 iMac) demonstrates this: under normal circumstances the tower runs about 20-30° cooler than the iMac. Even running both processors nonstop 24-7 doing encoding tasks doesn't get it as high as the iMac does just running iTunes and Safari.
Saying that MBPs are adequate replacements is silly, power issues aside they don't have the ventillation to run heavy duty processing tasks for extended periods (I've got experience crippling two of them trying to do video on them at various points in time and overheating the processors). With the iMac and Mini being built with the same parts and in cases that are just as tight on space, you're asking for the same kinds of issues.
Further, signal can only travel across a wire so fast, hence sending data out to external drives will necessarily slow things down compared to having everything connected to the local bus (especially when you start sharing that bandwidth with ultra high resolution displays). Thunderbolt is awesome, and I'm going to make sure it's in whatever machine I purchase next, but I don't consider it a substitute for being able to have more drives local, and being able to switch them out as my needs increase over time.
This article pretty much sums the state of Apple and pro users I think:
http://theworldaccordingtowagner.com/2012/05/22/if-you-want-proof-that-apple-is-abandoning-the-creative-pro-market-look-no-further-than-their-website/
Quote:
Originally Posted by Povilas
Oh i consider. I work for broadcasting company (not that it really maters anyway) and we do our work on i7 iMac where we used to work on Mac Pros. So again my point stands. It's a tool and your inability to do the job with the tools you are given is ironically elitist.
Lol... this guy......
You have been put in your place in multiple posts in this thread, and yet you still keep wanting to tote your "authority". Thanks for the laughs today (if that was your intent).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaji
Two pages of replies, and I'm surprised nobody has mentioned what, to me, has always been one of the most compelling arguments for the towers: Cooling.
Nothing else in the line runs as efficiently from a heat perspective.
No doubt- my iMac does everything I need it to do- but even running Handbrake makes my iMac almost unbearably hot (to the point I have to turn my ceiling fan on). I don't do any heavier lifting that photoshop and the occasional FCPX, but I also understand there are a ton of applications that are incredibly more taxing....