So apparently, if you don't create what everyone calls innovative, you should never be able to compete in the market.
No one said you wouldn't be allowed to compete. And no one said anyone is required to make it easy for you.
Market realities aren't what they were 15 years ago. Even 10 years ago.
Theft isn't tolerated like it used to be. Even "homages" to others' designs are open to challenge. Some companies, like Apple, care enough about their IP that they'd rather go to court than cross-license.
There is nothing threatening about Tizen by itself. But if you can't figure out where Samsung is going with it, don't expect me to draw it out for you. I don't have several days to help you figure it out.
Bluster and bluff.
Samsung currently supports (in rough order of importance)
Android
Bada
Windows Phone
Tizen
I suppose you have a genius insight as to how the bastard offspring of Bada and Tizen is going to Take. Over. The. World!!!1! Uh, whatever
This is getting just silly. How is it we can have all these patent lawsuits over the smartphones...yet the patents regarding cars designs, TVs, computer monitors, yada....are worked out.
Intermittent windshield wipers....
Look it up.
Quote:
I would much rather see Apple use their time and money continuing to DEVELOP hardware and software versus paying lawyers.
Apple plans it so when they bring a lawsuit, all production, development and sales stop because all these employees are also Apple lawyers. THey can't do two things at once.
The whole patent system needs to be overhauled (haven't we all said that when apple gets sued again by yet another patent troll?) What would everyone's response be if another big company (say Microsoft) sued to prevent apple's iphone from being released because it violated their patents...
Like Google with their apparent endorsement of their subsidiary's abuse of F/RAND based patents, you mean that kind of patent troll?
How about a company giving patents they bought to another company for the sole purpose of suing a competitor, an example being Google giving patents to HTC, that kind of patent troll?
For a company that whines a lot about the unfairness of patents and spend millions in lobbying whoever will listen, they sure embrace the methods of the lowest patent trolls.
Why is it silly? You said that Apple is threatened by Samsung. Where's the evidence to back up your claim?
Well, considering that one of the criteria for being granted a PI is for Apple to prove that they "face a substantial threat of irreparable damage or injury if the injunction is not granted", I would think this was self-evident.
I suppose one could make the argument that Apple's lawyers don't truly represent Apple, or they are possibly ignorant of how a preliminary injuction works. Is this something you are suggesting???
In the sense that folks stop buying iPhones etc no. but there is always and already is a huge feedback back lash all over various sites. Engadget for example is packed with people bashing Apple over this. And not light hearted jabs, there's near death threats level stuff. Sad part is that most of it is taking jabs about the Siri interface so clearly they didn't bother to read what patent is being invoked because it's not trade dress.
Course if Apple was the one being accused of infringing they would be cheering that the big bad Apple is about to get smacked. Even if the patent in question is bases off anything in the accused product etc.
Engadget is always full of people bashing Apple over anything really, this is no different.
Even better, why not explain it to Samsung? They're obviously not convinced - since they can't seem to decide between Android or WIndows Mobile or Tizen or Linux or a few other options. If Tizen is so great, why do they need so many different OSs?
More importantly, where's the evidence that Tizen is so great? I've been hearing since the iPhone came out about how technology xxxx would blow Apple out of the water. It hasn't happened yet, so I'll wait for reality rather than accepting your delusions.
They haven't decided between a single operating system, and they possibly never will. Samsung's business model is to make a wide variety of products, throw it at the wall, and see what sticks. This style is great for rapidly adjusting your designs to the changing consumer 'winds' in minor iterations, but obviously doesn't lend itself well to coming out with 'revolutionary' designs. Fortunately, we have risk taking innovators like Apple to fulfill that role...
In regards to all the copying allegations, I simply do not believe that it is as straightforward as Samsung blatantly copying Apple. I DO believe that Apple came out with a great product that had the ability to change what consumer's expected in a smartphone. The portion of Samsung's many models that sold well did so because they came closer to this new expectation of consumers. For example, Samsung didn't choose to move away from keyboards and to touchscreens in some attempt to copy Apple. Instead, they made both, and phones with keyboards didn't sell because they didn't meet the criteria for what consumer's sought in a smartphone.
I also think the reason so many Samsung phones are coming out with larger screens is because this is the latest shifting in the consumer 'winds'; consumers simply are desiring larger screens. Would I ever suggest Apple was copying Samsung by going with a larger screen? Of course not, because I recognize that this is simply a company trying to stay in sync with the expectations of their consumer.
Anything Apple does always have fandroids, crazy microsoft fans and nerds screaming.
To be ignorant and blunt: If they love Samsung so much: move to Korea.
hmmmm, so if you like toyota, move to japan
if you like bmw, move to germany
if you like fosters, move to australia
if you like Dolce and Gabbana, move to italy.
If you like Nikon so much, move to Japan
If you like SAP so much, move to germany
If you like Michelin so much, move to france
If you like Rolex so much, move to Switzerland
If you like playstation so much, move to Japan.
Seems to me that in life there is ALWAYS a product made froma foreign company that you will like over an american product. Surely you will not say EVERYTHING you like is by an american company. So I really don't understand your thinking. Because someone chooses a Korean phone over an american phone they should move to that country?
Anything Apple does always have fandroids, crazy microsoft fans and nerds screaming.
To be ignorant and blunt: If they love Samsung so much: move to Korea.
Ridiculous. I'd write an answer, but words refuse to get typed in the face of so much stupidity. I have a message from the Universe for you: "Please emigrate to another universe."
---
Also, if this Samsung thingie is "the most preordered piece of electronics in the history of the world" or something, then people LIKE it... Should really a company be able to block sales of such a successful product? Besides, I remember people on this forum explaining that Apple "had it all right" due to sales of iPad/iPhone/etc.... So does "the most preordered product" mean that Samsung has it all right, by the same logic?
All this seems a lot of noise and not much worth... I'd rather have a new version of iPhone at WWDC.
Ridiculous. I'd write an answer, but words refuse to get typed in the face of so much stupidity. I have a message from the Universe for you: "Please emigrate to another universe."
---
Also, if this Samsung thingie is "the most preordered piece of electronics in the history of the world" or something, then people LIKE it... Should really a company be able to block sales of such a successful product? Besides, I remember people on this forum explaining that Apple "had it all right" due to sales of iPad/iPhone/etc.... So does "the most preordered product" mean that Samsung has it all right, by the same logic?
All this seems a lot of noise and not much worth... I'd rather have a new version of iPhone at WWDC.
To be fair, and i'm no apple fanboy i'll tell you THAT, it should not matter if people "like" a product if it is found to be infringing on a patent in a court of law.
I would hate to patent a macrowave (something that freezes things in 1 minute ), then have kenmore or some other company rip it off, add a better deign to the casing, and reap huge profits.
The patents in this case, well at least the one that got htc in trouble, seems to be legit. Its none of that rectangle with curved edges bullcrap (Would LOVE to see how an iTV would look diff to any Samsung TV, i'm betting rectangle with unclutttered front), but in this case, it seems it was genuinely good idea, and props to apple for pulling it off. If there is prior art well then its invalid, but up till now there is none.
I don't even see what google's problem is. Just get rid of the menu, which seems to be the bone of contention. If its a website, go straight to the browser, if its a phone number, go straight to the dialer. 95 out of 100 times that's what you will choose from the menu ANYWAY. And in four years, you can bring it back and reveal it like a feature that never existed, like what apple did when it revolutionized by smartphones by 'introducing' multi-tasking.
So yes, I am with Apple on this one as they seem to be genuinely defending a good idea that they came up with. And as i said, i ain't no apple fanboy.
What does Apple care about them? They weren't going to buy an iPhone, so how does it affect Apple?
I have bought Apple products for years. Among the many items we have 4 iPhones. I was going to consider the Galaxy S III among other Android phones next month, decide whether to wait for the iPhone 5 or make a change, kind of a been there, done that with Apple.
Given that Apple is constantly trying to limit my choice, I'll not buy any Apple product again. I'm not the only one. I'm sure Apple fans couldnt care less, nor do I care what they group-think.
What does Apple care about them? They weren't going to buy an iPhone, so how does it affect Apple?
That was the argument I used when Samsung made their "why are you standing in line" commercials. Hardcore Apple fans weren't going to buy a Samsung smartphone anyway so why did they care what they thought?
... What happened to the days when everyone feared the monopoly, and how they stifle innovation etc? ..
It is difficult to reason with Apple fans. (And I say that as someone who used to be a hardcore apple fan when I was a kid/teenager.)
I am taken by "oooo so shiny, me like shiny, apple so shiny" just as much as the next person (okay, maybe even more so), but not when it is at the expense of more important values like intellectual freedom. I can't claim to be an expert about intellectual property (but will say my bias is strongly against the idea in general), but it seems to me that Apple is being hypocritical on top of trying to obstruct innovation
Edit: My apologies to apple fans about the first line. I've read many reasonable posts on this forum, and I know many apple fans in real life. What was going through my head at the time were posts from some who seem to defend Apple no matter what they do-- where product bugs/flaws are spun as "the correct way" or "irrelevant" until it is fixed, for example. lt is human nature to defend what you love, and defend the "home team". I don't mean to insult the people here because I'm sure I am and will be guilty of this just as much as anyone else.
So people shouldn't be able to protect the ideas they have? What sort of world is that?
I'm not sure. It doesn't really exist, so I couldn't tell you. That is why it is just my bias. It might be a utopian fantasy, and the reality of it might be slower overall innovation (or the free exchange/use of ideas could lead to explosive innovation, I have no idea). I don't know.
I just can't wrap my head around this issue, other than to say I have a very strong impulse against one person or group having the right to forcefully limit someone else's intellectual freedom.
TS, personally I think copyrights are more appropriate for software, but I'm far from an expert. There's more well-versed guys than me on both sides of the discussion and they both have some valid points IMO. This is one of the articles that made sense to me, but not surprising since I'm not a fan of software patents in general.
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by philgar
So apparently, if you don't create what everyone calls innovative, you should never be able to compete in the market.
No one said you wouldn't be allowed to compete. And no one said anyone is required to make it easy for you.
Market realities aren't what they were 15 years ago. Even 10 years ago.
Theft isn't tolerated like it used to be. Even "homages" to others' designs are open to challenge. Some companies, like Apple, care enough about their IP that they'd rather go to court than cross-license.
Welcome to the jungle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac.World
There is nothing threatening about Tizen by itself. But if you can't figure out where Samsung is going with it, don't expect me to draw it out for you. I don't have several days to help you figure it out.
Bluster and bluff.
Samsung currently supports (in rough order of importance)
Android
Bada
Windows Phone
Tizen
I suppose you have a genius insight as to how the bastard offspring of Bada and Tizen is going to Take. Over. The. World!!!1! Uh, whatever
Quote:
Originally Posted by lamewing
This is getting just silly. How is it we can have all these patent lawsuits over the smartphones...yet the patents regarding cars designs, TVs, computer monitors, yada....are worked out.
Intermittent windshield wipers....
Look it up.
Quote:
I would much rather see Apple use their time and money continuing to DEVELOP hardware and software versus paying lawyers.
Apple plans it so when they bring a lawsuit, all production, development and sales stop because all these employees are also Apple lawyers. THey can't do two things at once.
It looks like Apple is paying attention to its competitors.
Quote:
Originally Posted by philgar
The whole patent system needs to be overhauled (haven't we all said that when apple gets sued again by yet another patent troll?) What would everyone's response be if another big company (say Microsoft) sued to prevent apple's iphone from being released because it violated their patents...
Like Google with their apparent endorsement of their subsidiary's abuse of F/RAND based patents, you mean that kind of patent troll?
How about a company giving patents they bought to another company for the sole purpose of suing a competitor, an example being Google giving patents to HTC, that kind of patent troll?
For a company that whines a lot about the unfairness of patents and spend millions in lobbying whoever will listen, they sure embrace the methods of the lowest patent trolls.
Google IS hypocrisy manifest.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
Why is it silly? You said that Apple is threatened by Samsung. Where's the evidence to back up your claim?
Well, considering that one of the criteria for being granted a PI is for Apple to prove that they "face a substantial threat of irreparable damage or injury if the injunction is not granted", I would think this was self-evident.
I suppose one could make the argument that Apple's lawyers don't truly represent Apple, or they are possibly ignorant of how a preliminary injuction works. Is this something you are suggesting???
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna
In the sense that folks stop buying iPhones etc no. but there is always and already is a huge feedback back lash all over various sites. Engadget for example is packed with people bashing Apple over this. And not light hearted jabs, there's near death threats level stuff. Sad part is that most of it is taking jabs about the Siri interface so clearly they didn't bother to read what patent is being invoked because it's not trade dress.
Course if Apple was the one being accused of infringing they would be cheering that the big bad Apple is about to get smacked. Even if the patent in question is bases off anything in the accused product etc.
Engadget is always full of people bashing Apple over anything really, this is no different.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
Even better, why not explain it to Samsung? They're obviously not convinced - since they can't seem to decide between Android or WIndows Mobile or Tizen or Linux or a few other options. If Tizen is so great, why do they need so many different OSs?
More importantly, where's the evidence that Tizen is so great? I've been hearing since the iPhone came out about how technology xxxx would blow Apple out of the water. It hasn't happened yet, so I'll wait for reality rather than accepting your delusions.
They haven't decided between a single operating system, and they possibly never will. Samsung's business model is to make a wide variety of products, throw it at the wall, and see what sticks. This style is great for rapidly adjusting your designs to the changing consumer 'winds' in minor iterations, but obviously doesn't lend itself well to coming out with 'revolutionary' designs. Fortunately, we have risk taking innovators like Apple to fulfill that role...
In regards to all the copying allegations, I simply do not believe that it is as straightforward as Samsung blatantly copying Apple. I DO believe that Apple came out with a great product that had the ability to change what consumer's expected in a smartphone. The portion of Samsung's many models that sold well did so because they came closer to this new expectation of consumers. For example, Samsung didn't choose to move away from keyboards and to touchscreens in some attempt to copy Apple. Instead, they made both, and phones with keyboards didn't sell because they didn't meet the criteria for what consumer's sought in a smartphone.
I also think the reason so many Samsung phones are coming out with larger screens is because this is the latest shifting in the consumer 'winds'; consumers simply are desiring larger screens. Would I ever suggest Apple was copying Samsung by going with a larger screen? Of course not, because I recognize that this is simply a company trying to stay in sync with the expectations of their consumer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellacool
Apple spends millions on this lawsuit, Apples lawyers get rich, S3 goes on sale as planned.
Looks like Apple is becoming more like Rambus every day.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwlaw99
I hope Apple is ready for the backlash from the millions of people who want to buy this phone.
Anything Apple does always have fandroids, crazy microsoft fans and nerds screaming.
To be ignorant and blunt: If they love Samsung so much: move to Korea.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shompa
Anything Apple does always have fandroids, crazy microsoft fans and nerds screaming.
To be ignorant and blunt: If they love Samsung so much: move to Korea.
hmmmm, so if you like toyota, move to japan
if you like bmw, move to germany
if you like fosters, move to australia
if you like Dolce and Gabbana, move to italy.
If you like Nikon so much, move to Japan
If you like SAP so much, move to germany
If you like Michelin so much, move to france
If you like Rolex so much, move to Switzerland
If you like playstation so much, move to Japan.
Seems to me that in life there is ALWAYS a product made froma foreign company that you will like over an american product. Surely you will not say EVERYTHING you like is by an american company. So I really don't understand your thinking. Because someone chooses a Korean phone over an american phone they should move to that country?
Quote:
Originally Posted by shompa
Anything Apple does always have fandroids, crazy microsoft fans and nerds screaming.
To be ignorant and blunt: If they love Samsung so much: move to Korea.
Ridiculous. I'd write an answer, but words refuse to get typed in the face of so much stupidity. I have a message from the Universe for you: "Please emigrate to another universe."
---
Also, if this Samsung thingie is "the most preordered piece of electronics in the history of the world" or something, then people LIKE it... Should really a company be able to block sales of such a successful product? Besides, I remember people on this forum explaining that Apple "had it all right" due to sales of iPad/iPhone/etc.... So does "the most preordered product" mean that Samsung has it all right, by the same logic?
All this seems a lot of noise and not much worth... I'd rather have a new version of iPhone at WWDC.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightknight
Ridiculous. I'd write an answer, but words refuse to get typed in the face of so much stupidity. I have a message from the Universe for you: "Please emigrate to another universe."
---
Also, if this Samsung thingie is "the most preordered piece of electronics in the history of the world" or something, then people LIKE it... Should really a company be able to block sales of such a successful product? Besides, I remember people on this forum explaining that Apple "had it all right" due to sales of iPad/iPhone/etc.... So does "the most preordered product" mean that Samsung has it all right, by the same logic?
All this seems a lot of noise and not much worth... I'd rather have a new version of iPhone at WWDC.
To be fair, and i'm no apple fanboy i'll tell you THAT, it should not matter if people "like" a product if it is found to be infringing on a patent in a court of law.
I would hate to patent a macrowave (something that freezes things in 1 minute
The patents in this case, well at least the one that got htc in trouble, seems to be legit. Its none of that rectangle with curved edges bullcrap (Would LOVE to see how an iTV would look diff to any Samsung TV, i'm betting rectangle with unclutttered front), but in this case, it seems it was genuinely good idea, and props to apple for pulling it off. If there is prior art well then its invalid, but up till now there is none.
I don't even see what google's problem is. Just get rid of the menu, which seems to be the bone of contention. If its a website, go straight to the browser, if its a phone number, go straight to the dialer. 95 out of 100 times that's what you will choose from the menu ANYWAY. And in four years, you can bring it back and reveal it like a feature that never existed, like what apple did when it revolutionized by smartphones by 'introducing' multi-tasking.
So yes, I am with Apple on this one as they seem to be genuinely defending a good idea that they came up with. And as i said, i ain't no apple fanboy.
Given that Apple is constantly trying to limit my choice, I'll not buy any Apple product again. I'm not the only one. I'm sure Apple fans couldnt care less, nor do I care what they group-think.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
What does Apple care about them? They weren't going to buy an iPhone, so how does it affect Apple?
That was the argument I used when Samsung made their "why are you standing in line" commercials. Hardcore Apple fans weren't going to buy a Samsung smartphone anyway so why did they care what they thought?
Quote:
Originally Posted by philgar
... What happened to the days when everyone feared the monopoly, and how they stifle innovation etc? ..
It is difficult to reason with Apple fans. (And I say that as someone who used to be a hardcore apple fan when I was a kid/teenager.)
I am taken by "oooo so shiny, me like shiny, apple so shiny" just as much as the next person (okay, maybe even more so), but not when it is at the expense of more important values like intellectual freedom. I can't claim to be an expert about intellectual property (but will say my bias is strongly against the idea in general), but it seems to me that Apple is being hypocritical on top of trying to obstruct innovation
Edit: My apologies to apple fans about the first line. I've read many reasonable posts on this forum, and I know many apple fans in real life. What was going through my head at the time were posts from some who seem to defend Apple no matter what they do-- where product bugs/flaws are spun as "the correct way" or "irrelevant" until it is fixed, for example. lt is human nature to defend what you love, and defend the "home team". I don't mean to insult the people here because I'm sure I am and will be guilty of this just as much as anyone else.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwjvan
I can't claim to be an expert about intellectual property (but will say my bias is strongly against the idea in general)
So people shouldn't be able to protect the ideas they have? What sort of world is that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
So people shouldn't be able to protect the ideas they have? What sort of world is that?
I'm not sure. It doesn't really exist, so I couldn't tell you. That is why it is just my bias. It might be a utopian fantasy, and the reality of it might be slower overall innovation (or the free exchange/use of ideas could lead to explosive innovation, I have no idea). I don't know.
I just can't wrap my head around this issue, other than to say I have a very strong impulse against one person or group having the right to forcefully limit someone else's intellectual freedom.
TS, personally I think copyrights are more appropriate for software, but I'm far from an expert. There's more well-versed guys than me on both sides of the discussion and they both have some valid points IMO. This is one of the articles that made sense to me, but not surprising since I'm not a fan of software patents in general.
http://www.cato.org/publications/techknowledge/case-against-literary-software-patents