That is true, however there's also no room for a discrete graphics chip in the 13" MBP. I don't know if you've ever seen the logic board of a 13" MBP, but there is absolutely no room for another chip on it.
Right, which of course could easily be fixed by throwing out the optical drive. That might even make room for a second fan.
Amazing. One of the nicest products Apple has released in years and in your view it's a prototype just because of glued batteries and soldered RAM? In case you hadn't noticed, they've used soldered RAM on the MBA for years. And glued batteries are not that common. Both of those are there to save space and weight - which they do quite well.
Well, I hope it is a prototype. Otherwise, as others have pointed out, it is not a "pro" machine, it is a disposable computer. Prosumer at most. They can use soldered RAM on the Air, who would care to update RAM on an Air? But not on the Pro line. In the same vein, will they unveil a new Mac Pro with soldered RAM????
As for 'Apple couldn't have sold out if they had been ramping up for months', you don't have any idea what you're talking about. Each iteration of iPad and iPhone sells out within days even though they ramp up for months before release.
Frankly, you don't have any idea what you're talking about.
Do you really expect *that* much people to order a $2,000 toy? Of course, that’s wild guessing, but for the delay to slip so quickly, I would bet there was no more than a few thousands in stock. AFAIK, there is not even one available to be picked up in an Apple store. Did you ever witness that before? I remember Jobs presenting new stuff and concluding by "hits the stores tomorrow". Not this time.
Do you really expect *that* much people to order a $2,000 toy? Of course, that’s wild guessing, but for the delay to slip so quickly, I would bet there was no more than a few thousands in stock. AFAIK, there is not even one available to be picked up in an Apple store. Did you ever witness that before? I remember Jobs presenting new stuff and concluding by "hits the stores tomorrow". Not this time.
Let's see:
- Reviews are universally very positive.
- Lots of people report having ordered the Retina MBPs
- Availability is slipping
- The price and features are better in most respects than the previous MBPs, but the price is considerably lower
OTOH, we have some mindless troll claiming that they aren't selling well.
Hmmmmm, what to believe? /s
Oh, and btw, it is not uncommon for new products to be severely constrained after launch. The iPads were not available for walk-ins for months in some cases. And, of course, you could consider the Wii which sold by the millions - yet no one had them in stock for YEARS.
Do you really expect *that* much people to order a $2,000 toy?
Do you really expect that many people not to see through your trolling?
No trolling is meant, I just express my opinions based on previous and current facts. You can disagree of course, and I may be wrong… we’ll see with the next iteration in a few months.
Let's see:
- Reviews are universally very positive.
- Lots of people report having ordered the Retina MBPs
- Availability is slipping
- The price and features are better in most respects than the previous MBPs, but the price is considerably lower
OTOH, we have some mindless troll claiming that they aren't selling well.
Hmmmmm, what to believe? /s
Oh, and btw, it is not uncommon for new products to be severely constrained after launch. The iPads were not available for walk-ins for months in some cases. And, of course, you could consider the Wii which sold by the millions - yet no one had them in stock for YEARS.
Well, I agree reviews are positive and features are better. But price point is still high, higher than the conventional 15" – well, let’s not argue about this. What puzzles me, is that the production of this machine reportedly begun last April, two months ago. How many pieces you expect to be in stock after two months of continuous production, knowing that all stock goes to online order and none to the stores?
Also, who would be ordering a new computer hours after it has been hastily announced, without even having a chance to try it a few minutes to make up his/her own mind? Not professional users I guess – at least, I would not.
An other explanation would be a limited availability of the 15" retina LCD.
iPad is another story. It’s four time less pricey. It appeals to everybody.
Were not talking about desktops and external displays here, were talking about laptops. In Apple's laptop lineup, there's no room for a 17" model anymore. It doesn't fit what they want to do in their notebook lineup. I honestly don't remember Apple constantly saying the 17" is their flagship notebook. Maybe they said it once, but I can't recall them saying it time after time after time.
I don't think Apple is thinking about the creative content people 100% of the time anymore. Their market is changing, and not for the better as a creative professional. Apple doesn't have to rely on creative customers anymore. They have more regular everyday people buying them than "creative professionals". If I walk into a creative content company I bet I'd see more 27" iMacs and Macs with external displays than anything else. They're #1 focus for laptops isn't creative professional anymore.
They're not abandoning the creative industry. If anything, they're making it better. I bet if you go into an Apple Store and use a 15" Retina MBP you'd drool all over it, especially once FCP, Photoshop, Lightroom, Aperture, etc are fully retina compatible.
It makes absolutely no sense at all to drop it now and release a new one down the road. They'd just keep the current one there, update it to what the regular 15" MBP now has until a retina one came out. You can count on your hand (1 hand) the amount of times a product has been drop out of the store and then brought back with something new.
You are so passionately stubborn. All I am saying is that I can see why Apple would not want a $2,400 non-retina 17" in the lineup with a less expensive 15" Solid State Retina out-performing it. They wouldn't want to sell a 17" with less pixels alongside a 15". They would wait until the 17 Retina is finished and tag on the $500 premium.
In a post-production studio, you will see 17" MBPs in the field and studios, Mac Pros in the workstations and one sole iMac on the receptionist's desk.
I use a 17 for AutoCAD, 3dsMax and Rhino. I don't want smaller drawing windows with smaller floating palettes, no matter how resolved they are. I want a larger screen that I can travel with. I need to be able to create/present out of town and don't want to carry-on a cinema display. There are a lot of people like me in Design, Advertising, Film, Photography... and we have families that we obsessively buy Apple products for. Creative professionals are a HUGE part of Apple's bottom line and have always been their main champions. Notice how quickly Tim Cook fired off that e-mail assuring that MacPros are not being abandoned.
The main rub against the 17" has always been the weight, not the size of the screen. A 17" Retina would solve that.
Well, I agree reviews are positive and features are better. But price point is still high, higher than the conventional 15" – well, let’s not argue about this.
Of course you don't want to argue - because you're wrong.
Compare the price of a 15" MBP with 256 or 512 GB SSD a week ago to the price of the new Retina MBP. The price has dropped - and you're getting a vastly better display and big CPU and GPU improvements. How is that expensive?
It's not for everyone, but for people who want a high quality Mac laptop, they now have two options:
MBP with retina display which is lower than the old MBP price comparably equipped
or
Old MBP which is significantly lower than the old price.
What puzzles me, is that the production of this machine reportedly begun last April, two months ago. How many pieces you expect to be in stock after two months of continuous production, knowing that all stock goes to online order and none to the stores?
I would suggest that you spend some time in a manufacturing operation to learn how the real world works. You don't wave a magic wand and instantly get full production. Furthermore, Apple couldn't shut down the production lines of existing laptops to start stockpiling the new ones. They are limited to using available excess capacity.
I don't remember actual sales, but let's say that Apple sells 1 M MBP laptops per quarter. That's just over 300,000 per month. If their production line is at 80% of capacity, they could theoretically make about 75,000 units per month, but you can never get to 100%, so realistically, they have excess capacity of 40,000 units that they could make of the new model (plus any expansion in capacity, but there's no way to estimate that). Furthermore, it takes time to ramp up a new machine. There's a massive learning curve not only in your production, but from your component suppliers. I doubt if Intel was able to ship all the CPUs Apple wanted in April, for example. Then there are added quality checks - and you intentionally start up slowly so you can work out bugs in the process.
Realistically, if Apple had 100,000 units available at launch, it would be impressive. It's not hard to imagine that many being sold quickly.
Also, who would be ordering a new computer hours after it has been hastily announced, without even having a chance to try it a few minutes to make up his/her own mind? Not professional users I guess – at least, I would not.
Good thing not everyone lets you do their purchasing for them. Read this forum - a number of people report that they've already ordered one.
An other explanation would be a limited availability of the 15" retina LCD.
iPad is another story. It’s four time less pricey. It appeals to everybody.
iPad is 1/4 the price -but the volume is many times higher. The same principles apply.
It's a fact that it's neither a toy nor a prototype.
It’s definitely not a toy; that was a metaphor, une façon de parler, eine Redewendung, un modo di dire. As for the prototype, let’s see what comes out next months…
Peace!
Realistically, if Apple had 100,000 units available at launch, it would be impressive. It's not hard to imagine that many being sold quickly.
That’s where we disagree. I just don’t imagine 100,000 people rushing on the Apple store just a few minutes after WWDC announcement to order a $2,000 machine without further information than sparse specs. That said, you’re right: it’s not because I can’t imagine it that it has not happened!
Good thing not everyone lets you do their purchasing for them. Read this forum - a number of people report that they've already ordered one.
Well, if I was to order one (and I need to replace my 2008 MacBook which is growing old), I would at least wait for the first benchmarks to come out, and then I'd go to a store to be able to see, touch and use one. Do you really buy domestic appliances the same way?
What do you think is the ratio between daily production of this MacBook and iPads?
That’s where we disagree. I just don’t imagine 100,000 people rushing on the Apple store just a few minutes after WWDC announcement to order a $2,000 machine without further information than sparse specs. That said, you’re right: it’s not because I can’t imagine it that it has not happened!
That's called a circular argument. You're assuming it hasn't happened because you're assuming that it hasn't happened. It's also an argument from ignorance. You don't know that they haven't had lots of people ordering, so you can't say that they didn't.
The fact is that the lead time started increasing within a day of the release. Some significant number were obviously sold. Your implication that no one was buying them is clearly false.
Well, if I was to order one (and I need to replace my 2008 MacBook which is growing old), I would at least wait for the first benchmarks to come out, and then I'd go to a store to be able to see, touch and use one. Do you really buy domestic appliances the same way?
So you wouldn't do so. Big deal. Some people did. Read this and other forums. Open your eyes. Furthermore, the first benchmarks have already appeared.
And, yes, I buy domestic appliances that way all the time.
What do you think is the ratio between daily production of this MacBook and iPads?
Apple sells about 2-3 M laptops quarter (estimated). iPad is more like 15 M units per quarter. So, clearly, there are a lot more iPads sold. But the same principles apply.
The fact is that the lead time started increasing within a day of the release. Some significant number were obviously sold. Your implication that no one was buying them is clearly false.
I wasn’t clear or you misunderstood me. I wasn’t trying to prove out that it didn’t sell; I was implying there were far less units available than a two months continuous production, even during ramp up, would warrant. As if production had started only very recently.
Apple sells about 2-3 M laptops quarter (estimated). iPad is more like 15 M units per quarter. So, clearly, there are a lot more iPads sold. But the same principles apply.
You assumed 1 M MBP each quarter in your previous message. Admittedly, 13" is more popular than 15". So what represents the 15" MBP in that grand total? 20, 25 %?
I wasn’t clear or you misunderstood me. I wasn’t trying to prove out that it didn’t sell; I was implying there were far less units available than a two months continuous production, even during ramp up, would warrant. As if production had started only very recently.
And I already explained why you don't go from zero to full production overnight. I'd suggest you read the response rather than simply repeating the same unsubstantiated fallacy.
You assumed 1 M MBP each quarter in your previous message. Admittedly, 13" is more popular than 15". So what represents the 15" MBP in that grand total? 20, 25 %?
The first time, I was giving the number of MBPs per quarter and estimated about 1 M. The second time, you asked about total Apple laptop sales - which includes the MBA. The run rate on the MBA is 1.6 M per quarter.
The only breakdown I've seen says 50% 13", 47% 15" and 3% 17". None of which changes anything - you don't have any evidence to back your claims.
Furthermore, it is not uncommon for any computer (including Macs) to be in short supply shortly after launch. It was true going back to the IIsi and Iici and was certainly true of a lot of PowerMac and iMac models as well as some previous laptops. You just can't ramp up instantly.
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by macxpress
That is true, however there's also no room for a discrete graphics chip in the 13" MBP. I don't know if you've ever seen the logic board of a 13" MBP, but there is absolutely no room for another chip on it.
Right, which of course could easily be fixed by throwing out the optical drive. That might even make room for a second fan.
Well, I hope it is a prototype. Otherwise, as others have pointed out, it is not a "pro" machine, it is a disposable computer. Prosumer at most. They can use soldered RAM on the Air, who would care to update RAM on an Air? But not on the Pro line. In the same vein, will they unveil a new Mac Pro with soldered RAM????
Do you really expect *that* much people to order a $2,000 toy? Of course, that’s wild guessing, but for the delay to slip so quickly, I would bet there was no more than a few thousands in stock. AFAIK, there is not even one available to be picked up in an Apple store. Did you ever witness that before? I remember Jobs presenting new stuff and concluding by "hits the stores tomorrow". Not this time.
Well, you're completely wrong…
Do you really expect that many people not to see through your trolling?
Let's see:
- Reviews are universally very positive.
- Lots of people report having ordered the Retina MBPs
- Availability is slipping
- The price and features are better in most respects than the previous MBPs, but the price is considerably lower
OTOH, we have some mindless troll claiming that they aren't selling well.
Hmmmmm, what to believe? /s
Oh, and btw, it is not uncommon for new products to be severely constrained after launch. The iPads were not available for walk-ins for months in some cases. And, of course, you could consider the Wii which sold by the millions - yet no one had them in stock for YEARS.
No trolling is meant, I just express my opinions based on previous and current facts. You can disagree of course, and I may be wrong… we’ll see with the next iteration in a few months.
Well, I agree reviews are positive and features are better. But price point is still high, higher than the conventional 15" – well, let’s not argue about this. What puzzles me, is that the production of this machine reportedly begun last April, two months ago. How many pieces you expect to be in stock after two months of continuous production, knowing that all stock goes to online order and none to the stores?
Also, who would be ordering a new computer hours after it has been hastily announced, without even having a chance to try it a few minutes to make up his/her own mind? Not professional users I guess – at least, I would not.
An other explanation would be a limited availability of the 15" retina LCD.
iPad is another story. It’s four time less pricey. It appeals to everybody.
Sweet. Though I like the MacBook Air 13". It's almost like a samurai blade in design.
Quote:
Originally Posted by macxpress
Were not talking about desktops and external displays here, were talking about laptops. In Apple's laptop lineup, there's no room for a 17" model anymore. It doesn't fit what they want to do in their notebook lineup. I honestly don't remember Apple constantly saying the 17" is their flagship notebook. Maybe they said it once, but I can't recall them saying it time after time after time.
I don't think Apple is thinking about the creative content people 100% of the time anymore. Their market is changing, and not for the better as a creative professional. Apple doesn't have to rely on creative customers anymore. They have more regular everyday people buying them than "creative professionals". If I walk into a creative content company I bet I'd see more 27" iMacs and Macs with external displays than anything else. They're #1 focus for laptops isn't creative professional anymore.
They're not abandoning the creative industry. If anything, they're making it better. I bet if you go into an Apple Store and use a 15" Retina MBP you'd drool all over it, especially once FCP, Photoshop, Lightroom, Aperture, etc are fully retina compatible.
It makes absolutely no sense at all to drop it now and release a new one down the road. They'd just keep the current one there, update it to what the regular 15" MBP now has until a retina one came out. You can count on your hand (1 hand) the amount of times a product has been drop out of the store and then brought back with something new.
You are so passionately stubborn. All I am saying is that I can see why Apple would not want a $2,400 non-retina 17" in the lineup with a less expensive 15" Solid State Retina out-performing it. They wouldn't want to sell a 17" with less pixels alongside a 15". They would wait until the 17 Retina is finished and tag on the $500 premium.
In a post-production studio, you will see 17" MBPs in the field and studios, Mac Pros in the workstations and one sole iMac on the receptionist's desk.
I use a 17 for AutoCAD, 3dsMax and Rhino. I don't want smaller drawing windows with smaller floating palettes, no matter how resolved they are. I want a larger screen that I can travel with. I need to be able to create/present out of town and don't want to carry-on a cinema display. There are a lot of people like me in Design, Advertising, Film, Photography... and we have families that we obsessively buy Apple products for. Creative professionals are a HUGE part of Apple's bottom line and have always been their main champions. Notice how quickly Tim Cook fired off that e-mail assuring that MacPros are not being abandoned.
The main rub against the 17" has always been the weight, not the size of the screen. A 17" Retina would solve that.
It's a fact that it's neither a toy nor a prototype.
Of course you don't want to argue - because you're wrong.
Compare the price of a 15" MBP with 256 or 512 GB SSD a week ago to the price of the new Retina MBP. The price has dropped - and you're getting a vastly better display and big CPU and GPU improvements. How is that expensive?
It's not for everyone, but for people who want a high quality Mac laptop, they now have two options:
MBP with retina display which is lower than the old MBP price comparably equipped
or
Old MBP which is significantly lower than the old price.
Either way, the price is lower.
I would suggest that you spend some time in a manufacturing operation to learn how the real world works. You don't wave a magic wand and instantly get full production. Furthermore, Apple couldn't shut down the production lines of existing laptops to start stockpiling the new ones. They are limited to using available excess capacity.
I don't remember actual sales, but let's say that Apple sells 1 M MBP laptops per quarter. That's just over 300,000 per month. If their production line is at 80% of capacity, they could theoretically make about 75,000 units per month, but you can never get to 100%, so realistically, they have excess capacity of 40,000 units that they could make of the new model (plus any expansion in capacity, but there's no way to estimate that). Furthermore, it takes time to ramp up a new machine. There's a massive learning curve not only in your production, but from your component suppliers. I doubt if Intel was able to ship all the CPUs Apple wanted in April, for example. Then there are added quality checks - and you intentionally start up slowly so you can work out bugs in the process.
Realistically, if Apple had 100,000 units available at launch, it would be impressive. It's not hard to imagine that many being sold quickly.
Good thing not everyone lets you do their purchasing for them. Read this forum - a number of people report that they've already ordered one.
iPad is 1/4 the price -but the volume is many times higher. The same principles apply.
It’s definitely not a toy; that was a metaphor, une façon de parler, eine Redewendung, un modo di dire. As for the prototype, let’s see what comes out next months…
Peace!
Yeah, a metaphor. Just like when people said the iPad was a toy, that was certainly a metaphor. :broken_rolleyes_emoticon.gif:
That’s where we disagree. I just don’t imagine 100,000 people rushing on the Apple store just a few minutes after WWDC announcement to order a $2,000 machine without further information than sparse specs. That said, you’re right: it’s not because I can’t imagine it that it has not happened!
Well, if I was to order one (and I need to replace my 2008 MacBook which is growing old), I would at least wait for the first benchmarks to come out, and then I'd go to a store to be able to see, touch and use one. Do you really buy domestic appliances the same way?
What do you think is the ratio between daily production of this MacBook and iPads?
C’mon, don’t be cranky! I, too, have queued up six hours to get an iPhone 4 the day it was released at (at that time) Paris single App Store
Quote:
Originally Posted by johndoe98
Right, which of course could easily be fixed by throwing out the optical drive. That might even make room for a second fan.
You're right...that would make total sense to me!
That's called a circular argument. You're assuming it hasn't happened because you're assuming that it hasn't happened. It's also an argument from ignorance. You don't know that they haven't had lots of people ordering, so you can't say that they didn't.
The fact is that the lead time started increasing within a day of the release. Some significant number were obviously sold. Your implication that no one was buying them is clearly false.
So you wouldn't do so. Big deal. Some people did. Read this and other forums. Open your eyes. Furthermore, the first benchmarks have already appeared.
And, yes, I buy domestic appliances that way all the time.
Apple sells about 2-3 M laptops quarter (estimated). iPad is more like 15 M units per quarter. So, clearly, there are a lot more iPads sold. But the same principles apply.
Quote:
Originally Posted by macxpress
You're right...that would make total sense to me!
Yah, a 13" MBP Retina with GPU would be killer. August hopefully but I won't be upgrading my laptop till next year.
I wasn’t clear or you misunderstood me. I wasn’t trying to prove out that it didn’t sell; I was implying there were far less units available than a two months continuous production, even during ramp up, would warrant. As if production had started only very recently.
You assumed 1 M MBP each quarter in your previous message. Admittedly, 13" is more popular than 15". So what represents the 15" MBP in that grand total? 20, 25 %?
And I already explained why you don't go from zero to full production overnight. I'd suggest you read the response rather than simply repeating the same unsubstantiated fallacy.
The first time, I was giving the number of MBPs per quarter and estimated about 1 M. The second time, you asked about total Apple laptop sales - which includes the MBA. The run rate on the MBA is 1.6 M per quarter.
The only breakdown I've seen says 50% 13", 47% 15" and 3% 17". None of which changes anything - you don't have any evidence to back your claims.
Furthermore, it is not uncommon for any computer (including Macs) to be in short supply shortly after launch. It was true going back to the IIsi and Iici and was certainly true of a lot of PowerMac and iMac models as well as some previous laptops. You just can't ramp up instantly.