when Nest's biggest energy savings advertising blip seems to be "Only 10% of programmable thermostats are programmed to save energy, but thanks to learning, 99% of Nests have schedules that reflect their owner's lives." it makes me think of VCRs blinking 12:00. Maybe I'm just not $225 lazy.
Do you still use a VCR to record shows off the TV or do you have a DVR, a device that not only can intelligently see when that show you like aires new episodes or alter the day and/or time if the schedule changes, but can also recommend shows you might also like based on your viewing history?
That is what Nest. Pulling out some other thermostat that has a semi-comparable spec sheet is as relevant as comparing an iPad or Mac to some other device. There are reasons people like the experience of a nicer car, meal, home, etc. when there are much cheaper options that technically do the same thing.
Whether Nest fits your needs or not is irrelevant to whether the product is the best choice for others. Do you have any argument that shows Nest is inferior to its competitors?
It's a hard call to say something is too expensive if we don't know the cost of the pieces and the labor to build it.
Nah, I never consider that the basis of if something's too expensive, only if it's seems to expensive to what I need or according to the marketplace for similar products. If something is amazing and makes me thrilled to have it, my only thought is if my budget can handle it, not if the parts and labor warrant the price. If they charge what the market will bear it could be well above a normal markup of parts and manufacturing, but if they find a price niche that works for them, it works for them, and that especially holds for a new product.
Draconian just means overly severe and, depending on what you think happened here, is perfectly applicable. There's nothing wrong with saying a teacher's classroom rules are draconian either. I personally think it was just pulled because Apple figured out that they don't want anything in their stores that requires third party installation.
Purchased a Nest thermostat but had to return it because I couldn't get it to work properly with my building's HVAC system. It would either blow hot air or lukewarm air but never cold, even after changing the wiring five times per the advice of their phone support team. The product is slick and comes with clear instructions and great phone support, but it just didn't work for me, and I live in a 3 year old building so it's not a matter of dealing with outdated technology.
Perhaps the Nest isn't as widely compatible as originally thought and Apple had to take it off the shelves after receiving complaints? I always wondered if the limited availability of the Nest enabled the company to keep complaints out of the public eye...
Sounds like the wires to your HVAC system were not color coded correctly (or there is a second control panel overriding it.) Not unheardof, how many people actually check the colors of their wiring in their home after stuff is installed? Back in the 90's I've run into places that had the Ring and Tip wires reversed on their phone lines, so every time they tried to use a dial-up modem, all their phones would ring, and nothing would connect.
What is most likely the issue, is that either people were buying it, damaging it, and returning it, or they were being shoplifted. Apple doesn't have a way to verify that the device works at the store if it's returned, so they must be shipped back to the manufacturer. It's not a cheap item.
Then again, the Apple store is not Home Depot. People who buy it at the Apple store, can't ask for help installing it. People who buy it at Home Depot probably know what they're doing to install it, but not how to program it. AFAIK, the only people buying it are those that are familar enough with HVAC and Wireless kit to do it themselves. Depending where you live, you might not be able to use it at all (Like most of the Pacific Northwest that doesn't have AC and only baseboard heating.)
Correct. It is at best "name" synergy. Truth be told Apple has to be careful not to look "looks trendy only." Its products should provide synergy for real.
it is actually quite easy to call something expensive, regardless of the labour or materials costs.
when Nest's biggest energy savings advertising blip seems to be "Only 10% of programmable thermostats are programmed to save energy, but thanks to learning, 99% of Nests have schedules that reflect their owner's lives." it makes me think of VCRs blinking 12:00. Maybe I'm just not $225 lazy.
That looks $150 cheaper in the quality of presentation.
Given they use an LCD out of the 90's, I don't know if I want to see or use their web interface, their human interface looks crummy and ugly. It looks like something slapped together and with that sort of look, the software probably isn't any good.
It might looook cool, but it's just more wireless junk unnecessarily radiating your brain in your own home ... I need it like a tumour. No wireless in my house.
so good of you to stick to your convictions! So....you don't have WiFi? You don't have a cell phone? You don't have a microwave? You block radio waves? The list goes on.....
That looks $150 cheaper in the quality of presentation.
Given they use an LCD out of the 90's, I don't know if I want to see or use their web interface, their human interface looks crummy and ugly. It looks like something slapped together and with that sort of look, the software probably isn't any good.
I found a review. For the price it doesn't seem bad and their iPhone app looks much better than their monochrome LCD but I'd gladly pay for Nest any day. The big issue is the Filtrete thermostat doesn't learn. It's programmable and you can access it remotely but you can't "set it and forget it."
I love the idea of learning software, but don't think it's really appropriate in the case of a thermostat. At first glance it seems like an obvious application, but what you really want in this interconnected world is something that integrates with the mobile phone of each person living in the house. For example Apple could make a thermostat that runs iOS and receives geofencing events whenever an occupant is approaching the residence.
I love the idea of learning software, but don't think it's really appropriate in the case of a thermostat. At first glance it seems like an obvious application, but what you really want in this interconnected world is something that integrates with the mobile phone of each person living in the house. For example Apple could make a thermostat that runs iOS and receives geofencing events whenever an occupant is approaching the residence.
I think learning is better than simply being reactionary. I do like your idea of a device that is aware of when its occupants are approaching and when they leave as routines do alter but I think that general learning is an overall better option.
PS: I'd like to see Nest, or another brand, evolve into something more complete than just being a thermostat.
I think learning is better than simply being reactionary. I do like your idea of a device that is aware of when its occupants are approaching and when they leave as routines do alter but I think that general learning is an overall better option.
But why try to predict when you have access to the raw facts, i.e. you are actually tracking everybody? Certainly once someone is home, learning could kick in to determine the precise temperatures everybody likes. But actual on/off should be done purely with geofencing.
But why try to predict when you have access to the raw facts, i.e. you are actually tracking everybody? Certainly once someone is home, learning could kick in to determine the precise temperatures everybody likes. But actual on/off should be done purely with geofencing.
But I don't want the thermostat to kick in once someone is home. I want it to kick in so the temperature is ideal as close to when, but before, someone gets home.
Here's a scenario: Let's say I work all day and then have somewhere else to be for many hours in the evening. Let's say my evening destination takes me past my house so this geofencing will sense me coming home every time I drive in the direction of my home. I assume the next argument is that I can then manually disable the system but I don't want to do that each time.
I want it to primary learn patterns and then predict when those patterns will most likely hit so it can activate based on programmed and learned behaviour, not because I'm somewhere closer to it.
Then you have issues where not everyone has an smartphones which is really the only way to this. What if you have kids who come home after school or a babysitter or maid or many other people who won't be tied to your system with a linked smartphone? Like I said, I like the idea but not as a primary feature. Nest is on the right track.
It's simple retail economics. It wasn't selling through and the shelf space can generate more revenue per sq./ft. with other products. Let's face it, it's a $250 thermostat.
They send virtually every bit of data collected - usage, battery levels, temperature, humidity, ambient light, when the unit is turned on and off, data you enter during setup, specifications of your heating/HVAC system, Zip code, when people enter or leave a room, .... Based on data collected, your unit's firmware may be updated by the servers to run "more efficiently". This is a "learning" thermostat after all.
Easier to answer the converse - what's not sent to the servers? Not much. This is the 21st century. Every new product is or will be collecting data on you.
Perhaps you should understand something thoroughly before commenting so definitively.
But I don't want the thermostat to kick in once someone is home. I want it to kick in so the temperature is ideal as close to when, but before, someone gets home.
Perhaps you should understand something thoroughly before commenting so definitively.
Perhaps you should do the same?
"This is the 21st century. Every new product is or will be collecting data on you."
Some will. Far, far more will not even be capable of collecting any data.
Nest already does this, I believe.
Yes, this is the point that Soli was making (in reference to the geofencing suggestion).
People who buy it at Home Depot probably know what they're doing to install it, but not how to program it.
What Home Depot do you shop at? Except for the professionals who sometimes shop there, ANY home improvement store I've ever been in is populated by the totally uninformed. The only information they have is what they saw on a cable tv fixit show, or what they found on the internet. The only thing positive I can say about the do-it-yourselfer, is that they are ambitious and will try anything. And asking someone who works there is no help either. I'm sorry, I'm not saying that the are staffed by morons, only that they don't know what they are talking about. If they did know what they were talking about, they would be in that line of work instead of warehouse sales - it pays so much better. Sometimes its a hoot just listening to the misinformation that I overhear them passing out to customers. Having said that and being the owner of a Nest thermostat, I have to say it is the easiest to install of any thermostat I have ever installed, and I have installed hundreds of regular thermostats(work related).
1) Instructions are written for the novice not the professional, so jargon-speak is minimal.
2) The wires are physically easier to connect as compared to your standard thermostat (less dexterity is required, seems simple but skill is involved to a degree).
3) It comes with several coverplates that fit behind the thermostat to cover any mismatched holes or paint that was behind the old thermostat that may have been a different size or shape than the Nest.
4) It even comes with a small screwdriver to use in removing the old thermostat and installing the Nest. No need to hunt for tools.
There is no way you could make this any easier. Oh yeah, if you think this is just a programmable thermostat, you probably still think Siri is just a voice recognition app.
Comments
Do you still use a VCR to record shows off the TV or do you have a DVR, a device that not only can intelligently see when that show you like aires new episodes or alter the day and/or time if the schedule changes, but can also recommend shows you might also like based on your viewing history?
That is what Nest. Pulling out some other thermostat that has a semi-comparable spec sheet is as relevant as comparing an iPad or Mac to some other device. There are reasons people like the experience of a nicer car, meal, home, etc. when there are much cheaper options that technically do the same thing.
Whether Nest fits your needs or not is irrelevant to whether the product is the best choice for others. Do you have any argument that shows Nest is inferior to its competitors?
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna
It's a hard call to say something is too expensive if we don't know the cost of the pieces and the labor to build it.
Nah, I never consider that the basis of if something's too expensive, only if it's seems to expensive to what I need or according to the marketplace for similar products. If something is amazing and makes me thrilled to have it, my only thought is if my budget can handle it, not if the parts and labor warrant the price. If they charge what the market will bear it could be well above a normal markup of parts and manufacturing, but if they find a price niche that works for them, it works for them, and that especially holds for a new product.
Draconian just means overly severe and, depending on what you think happened here, is perfectly applicable. There's nothing wrong with saying a teacher's classroom rules are draconian either. I personally think it was just pulled because Apple figured out that they don't want anything in their stores that requires third party installation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by freediverx
Purchased a Nest thermostat but had to return it because I couldn't get it to work properly with my building's HVAC system. It would either blow hot air or lukewarm air but never cold, even after changing the wiring five times per the advice of their phone support team. The product is slick and comes with clear instructions and great phone support, but it just didn't work for me, and I live in a 3 year old building so it's not a matter of dealing with outdated technology.
Perhaps the Nest isn't as widely compatible as originally thought and Apple had to take it off the shelves after receiving complaints? I always wondered if the limited availability of the Nest enabled the company to keep complaints out of the public eye...
Sounds like the wires to your HVAC system were not color coded correctly (or there is a second control panel overriding it.) Not unheardof, how many people actually check the colors of their wiring in their home after stuff is installed? Back in the 90's I've run into places that had the Ring and Tip wires reversed on their phone lines, so every time they tried to use a dial-up modem, all their phones would ring, and nothing would connect.
What is most likely the issue, is that either people were buying it, damaging it, and returning it, or they were being shoplifted. Apple doesn't have a way to verify that the device works at the store if it's returned, so they must be shipped back to the manufacturer. It's not a cheap item.
Then again, the Apple store is not Home Depot. People who buy it at the Apple store, can't ask for help installing it. People who buy it at Home Depot probably know what they're doing to install it, but not how to program it. AFAIK, the only people buying it are those that are familar enough with HVAC and Wireless kit to do it themselves. Depending where you live, you might not be able to use it at all (Like most of the Pacific Northwest that doesn't have AC and only baseboard heating.)
Correct. It is at best "name" synergy. Truth be told Apple has to be careful not to look "looks trendy only." Its products should provide synergy for real.
That looks $150 cheaper in the quality of presentation.
Given they use an LCD out of the 90's, I don't know if I want to see or use their web interface, their human interface looks crummy and ugly. It looks like something slapped together and with that sort of look, the software probably isn't any good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris_CA
Nest doesn't "intercommunicate" with anything. It runs by itself.
You can control it (if you wish) and read the settings with iOS but the idea is to plug it in and forget about it.
It doesn't? Does sending data up to servers count as intercommunication?
Quote:
Originally Posted by wozwoz
It might looook cool, but it's just more wireless junk unnecessarily radiating your brain in your own home ... I need it like a tumour. No wireless in my house.
so good of you to stick to your convictions! So....you don't have WiFi? You don't have a cell phone? You don't have a microwave? You block radio waves? The list goes on.....
I found a review. For the price it doesn't seem bad and their iPhone app looks much better than their monochrome LCD but I'd gladly pay for Nest any day. The big issue is the Filtrete thermostat doesn't learn. It's programmable and you can access it remotely but you can't "set it and forget it."
edit: I certainly don't spend a lot of time researching home thermostats but I doubt many companies have this level of support.
I love the idea of learning software, but don't think it's really appropriate in the case of a thermostat. At first glance it seems like an obvious application, but what you really want in this interconnected world is something that integrates with the mobile phone of each person living in the house. For example Apple could make a thermostat that runs iOS and receives geofencing events whenever an occupant is approaching the residence.
I think learning is better than simply being reactionary. I do like your idea of a device that is aware of when its occupants are approaching and when they leave as routines do alter but I think that general learning is an overall better option.
PS: I'd like to see Nest, or another brand, evolve into something more complete than just being a thermostat.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
I think learning is better than simply being reactionary. I do like your idea of a device that is aware of when its occupants are approaching and when they leave as routines do alter but I think that general learning is an overall better option.
But why try to predict when you have access to the raw facts, i.e. you are actually tracking everybody? Certainly once someone is home, learning could kick in to determine the precise temperatures everybody likes. But actual on/off should be done purely with geofencing.
But I don't want the thermostat to kick in once someone is home. I want it to kick in so the temperature is ideal as close to when, but before, someone gets home.
Here's a scenario: Let's say I work all day and then have somewhere else to be for many hours in the evening. Let's say my evening destination takes me past my house so this geofencing will sense me coming home every time I drive in the direction of my home. I assume the next argument is that I can then manually disable the system but I don't want to do that each time.
I want it to primary learn patterns and then predict when those patterns will most likely hit so it can activate based on programmed and learned behaviour, not because I'm somewhere closer to it.
Then you have issues where not everyone has an smartphones which is really the only way to this. What if you have kids who come home after school or a babysitter or maid or many other people who won't be tied to your system with a linked smartphone? Like I said, I like the idea but not as a primary feature. Nest is on the right track.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris_CA
What data is sent up to servers?
They send virtually every bit of data collected - usage, battery levels, temperature, humidity, ambient light, when the unit is turned on and off, data you enter during setup, specifications of your heating/HVAC system, Zip code, when people enter or leave a room, .... Based on data collected, your unit's firmware may be updated by the servers to run "more efficiently". This is a "learning" thermostat after all.
Easier to answer the converse - what's not sent to the servers? Not much. This is the 21st century. Every new product is or will be collecting data on you.
Perhaps you should understand something thoroughly before commenting so definitively.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
But I don't want the thermostat to kick in once someone is home. I want it to kick in so the temperature is ideal as close to when, but before, someone gets home.
Nest already does this, I believe.
"This is the 21st century. Every new product is or will be collecting data on you."
Some will. Far, far more will not even be capable of collecting any data.
Yes, this is the point that Soli was making (in reference to the geofencing suggestion).
1) Instructions are written for the novice not the professional, so jargon-speak is minimal.
2) The wires are physically easier to connect as compared to your standard thermostat (less dexterity is required, seems simple but skill is involved to a degree).
3) It comes with several coverplates that fit behind the thermostat to cover any mismatched holes or paint that was behind the old thermostat that may have been a different size or shape than the Nest.
4) It even comes with a small screwdriver to use in removing the old thermostat and installing the Nest. No need to hunt for tools.
There is no way you could make this any easier. Oh yeah, if you think this is just a programmable thermostat, you probably still think Siri is just a voice recognition app.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris_CA
"Lighten up Francis"
Perhaps you should do the same?
"This is the 21st century. Every new product is or will be collecting data on you."
Some will. Far, far more will not even be capable of collecting any data.
Quote:
Nest already does this, I believe.
Yes, this is the point that Soli was making (in reference to the geofencing suggestion).
You are scraping, flailing, if you're picking apart hyperbole to make a counterpoint. But that's ok