Most consumer electronics today are specifically designed to last exactly two years. To force manufacturers to give a free warranty for the entire designed life of the product is extremely ridiculous. It's like selling a house with 100 years of free repairs.
I wouldn't believe anybody who claimed that they had a faulty headphone socket and they never did anything about it for two whole years. It's much more likely, that the device was 100% fine, and the defect occurred afterwards, and then that would be the customer's own fault.
This Euro law seems like a goldmine for scammers, liars and shady people. And that's why I mentioned that Apple should be very strict when enforcing it.
don't be so sure about that. I have a MBP 17" that has a faulty headphone socket, but I have never informed Apple, and the thing is over a year old... it never worked right from day 1... it doesn't bother me enough to go without my machine for a week to get it repaired..
I doubt I'll ever get it fixed, I just don't care about it, but if what I'm using the machine for changes while its still under warranty, i'll get it fixed, but I wouldn't expect any company to believe anyone who goes 2 years after they bought something and wants something fixed because it was broken on delivery.
don't be so sure about that. I have a MBP 17" that has a faulty headphone socket, but I have never informed Apple, and the thing is over a year old... it never worked right from day 1... it doesn't bother me enough to go without my machine for a week to get it repaired..
I doubt I'll ever get it fixed, I just don't care about it, but if what I'm using the machine for changes while its still under warranty, i'll get it fixed, but I wouldn't expect any company to believe anyone who goes 2 years after they bought something and wants something fixed because it was broken on delivery.
In your case, you're admitting that the faulty headphone socket is not important to you, and it is of course your choice to not do anything about it.
But surely, you would agree that having ridiculously long warranties where customers could come in years after they bought something and claim that it was always broken is not necessarily a good law, and it would encourage certain people to take advantage of it, which would cause Apple's revenue to shrink.
I do believe that if there is something wrong with somebody's device, that they should get it fixed in a reasonable amount of time, if it is important to them, and not many years later.
I do believe that if there is something wrong with somebody's device, that they should get it fixed in a reasonable amount of time, if it is important to them, and not many years later.
Yes, as long as the fault manifests itself within a 'reasonable' amount of time. You'd be pretty cheesed off if your 60k car disintegrated after 2 years and a week only for the manufacturer to turn round and say you should have pointed out the problem before it happened...
I'm italian, so please excuse me if my english is not perfect. The case is a little bit more complex than what the foreign press wrote. First of all, the 2 years warranty is an EU directive. Second, someone posted this: "After 6 months the consumer has to prove the fault was present at the time of purchase or delivery". There's no such thing in the law. The fault can manifest itself even two weeks before the deadline, the consumer has only to prove that the fault is not user-generated.
The first AGCOM ruling focused on two aspect, brought to light by the consumer association Altroconsumo:
1) Apple refused to comply with the 2 years warranty directive;
2) Apple hided the 2 years warranty in order to sell its AppleCare Program.
Punished with a 900.000 euro fine, Apple was asked to update its website in order to give the correct information to the consumers. But nothing happened. Or, at least, it happened but not completely. As someone posted before, you can still read the old warranty and AppleCare program on the website. AGCOM believes this is a clear ruling infringement, and that's why Apple is facing another 300.000 euro fine and the hypothetical (it's quite unlikely it will ever be effective) 30 days ban. If you call Apple today (I asked when i bought my new iPad), they will provide the 2 years warranty required by the law. But it seems Apple is reluctant to advertise the new warranty program to the public - you have to call and ask - obviously because it makes AppleCare useless.
I can't say if a two years warranty is fair for the consumer or an exaggerated measure, but similar cases are rising in several EU nation (France, Germany...). Apple was the only company who refused to comply with the law.
Yeah, but the whole idea of a free two year warranty on a modern electronic device is a bit ridiculous.
No other place has this and Italy is just a part of Europe. If it was up to me I would simply leave Italy. It's not like you can't drive to a neighbouring country in five minutes to get an Apple device. Sometimes the proper reaction to a law is not to give in to it but to decide to go elsewhere where the laws are more reasonable.
I know lots of folks who refuse to travel to the USA anymore for this same reason (although the laws in question are much more serious than just whether you get a refund on your purchases or not).
We don't care whether it is ridiculous or not (you didn't explain why it'd be ridiculous): it is the law!
Other places have this, like the whole of the EU.
Good chance finding a neighbouring country when you live in Rome.
PS: what is with this cocky attitude of the die hard Apple-is-always-right-kind-of-supporters. You might start with respecting the LAW.
And BTW, we know as a fact that Apple does play with words (eg '4G'* - * valid only in North America)
"Tutti i prodotti hardware Apple includono una garanzia limitata di un anno e 90 giorni di assistenza tecnica telefonica gratuita.*Per estendere la copertura, acquista AppleCare Protection Plan."
Translation: "All Apple hardware comes with a one-year limited warranty and up to 90 days of complimentary telephone technical support. To extend your coverage further, purchase the AppleCare Protection Plan".
I wouldn't believe anybody who claimed that they had a faulty headphone socket and they never did anything about it for two whole years. It's much more likely, that the device was 100% fine, and the defect occurred afterwards, and then that would be the customer's own fault.
This Euro law seems like a goldmine for scammers, liars and shady people. And that's why I mentioned that Apple should be very strict when enforcing it.
I had my iPhone 4 the day it was released. 12 months and two weeks later the noise cancelling mic quit, and I couldn't take any video with audio that didn't sound like white noise, and the phone part of the phone didn't work correctly either. Speakerphone didn't work at all, and everyone I talked to said I sounded very garbled. I verified that one failure made my iPhone completely useless as a phone by calling myself and I couldn't understand a damn thing coming out the other end. One tiny part failed, and the primary feature of the device became 100% worthless. Apples said I could pay them another $200 to replace it because "the mic couldn't be changed" and I was told to basically get over it or pay for another phone. That's complete bullshit. The phone because unusable as a phone, and the super nice camera they boasted about became just as useless. It most definitely was not my fault, it was never dropped, never exposed to moisture, and didn't have a scratch on it. The defect was Apples and you're an idiot for saying that every problem is the fault of the owner, and not the device. Instead of getting ripped off by Apple for their failure, I bought another noise cancelling mic and replaced it in less than an hour. Serves as a great device for my Mom now. If Apple is going to sell a device that comes with a 2-year telephone contract, it shouldn't fail in that two years, and if it does it should be fixed/replaced without any cost to the customer.
Perhaps nothing indicates how clueless the EU is better than describing a two-year warranty as "free." If it costs Apple, it'll be reflected in the price.
Much of what the EU does, particularly joining the Greek and Germany economies under one currency, seems to be attempting to dictate by fiat things that simply cannot be. It's a bit like trying to prevent suicides from tall buildings by suspending the law of gravity.
The defect was Apples and you're an idiot for saying that every problem is the fault of the owner, and not the device. Instead of getting ripped off by Apple for their failure, I bought another noise cancelling mic and replaced it in less than an hour. Serves as a great device for my Mom now. If Apple is going to sell a device that comes with a 2-year telephone contract, it shouldn't fail in that two years, and if it does it should be fixed/replaced without any cost to the customer.
Unless you suffer from reading comprehension problems, I never stated that every problem is the fault of the owner. Some are, some aren't.
As for your iPhone, if you're in the US, you get a one year warranty. If you wish to be extra safe, then you should've gotten AppleCare.
Of course there can be many hidden defects on delivery that people might not learn about in less than six months. My last non-retina MBP was with me for a little more than a year. I only learned that the optical drive was not working, when the person buying it from me told me about it. I have also never used any of the USB ports, never used Bluetooth... Some people might use a laptop at home for almost a year and then realise that the battery is bad when taking it on vacation for the first time.... There can also be other hidden defects, like parts that wear out faster than designed because of manufacturing errors (e.g. a common case where the EU law applies is tubes and filters in laundry machines and dish washers, there is normally quite some sub sequential damage when they fail and cause flooding). So, yes, this law makes good sense, as it forces manufacturers to make machines that are at least potentially able to work for two years without creating havoc. And these laws became very necessary since a lot of cheap products (mainly, but not only, from the Far East) flooded the market. Yes, this implied warranty (that is what it is actually called, the EU law distinguishes clearly between a voluntary manufacturer warranty, which is optional and can include any terms and conditions the manufacturer applies, and the EU-mandated implied warranty, which can't be denied, but does only cover defects present on delivery).
It is just that the Italian consumer group tries to misinterpret the law and eants people to believe that implied warranty and warranty are the same, which is not the case. Neither do implied warranties include phone support (which ACPP includes), nor do they help the consumer after six months, if he can't prove that a defect was present when the device was delivered. Let's say a HDD fails after 9 months. ACPP will replace it, no questions asked, covering all shipping, handling and the actual repair. EU implied warranty will force you to prove that the HDD was defective at the time of delivery. How exactly would you do that? You have been working for 9 months with a defective drive? Fail. You go to a certified, sworn-in expert, who writes a professional statement after taking the HDD apart and performing detailed analysis of the materials and if they are within specification? Another good idea. This will exceed the price of the HDD by far, it could go wrong (if the expert finds no such error) and the cost for the expert will not be reimbursed to you under the EU law anyhow... It simply has little merit (in cases where it is 100% obvious).
So the way I see it, consumer protection laws in Italy are like "Miranda" rights in the U.S. In each case someone living in the respective country has been made aware of their rights just by repeated references to said rights in everyday life - television, print, conversation, and so on. However, in both cases they have to be informed of their rights at a relevant time, because they may have missed this information earlier, or not understood it at even a basic level until it is repeated one more time. In this way a free two year warranty is equivalent to a court appointed lawyer, and AppleCare has as it's equivalent a private attorney. The free two year warranty that Apple provides in Italy is not AppleCare, it's only the minimum service program as required by law. AppleCare is a premium value added service that is available at additional cost. So yes, Apple is providing the two year warranty as required by law, but this has nothing to do with Apple trying to sell their premium service, AppleCare. So the only question is did Apple tell the Italian consumer something they already knew, one more time. And at this point I don't know because I can't read Italian, and I don't trust machine translations. It's time to use that lifeline and phone an Italian friend.
It does look like they are honouring the 2 year warranty but it also looks like they are being disingenuous by obfuscating that fact when they try to sell the extended two-year AppleCare warranty. Seems suspect to me.
edit: This is the translation of the AppleCare section when you go to buy an iPad from the Italian Apple Store:
Quote:
AppleCare Protection Plan
Service and support offered by experts iPad. Up to two years from original purchase date of your iPad, AppleCare Protection Plan gives you:
• Technical support in a flash: direct access to Apple experts
• Cover Hardware Apple iPad, battery and included accessories
• Software support: iTunes, iWork, iPad, the operating system and connecting to wireless networks
By purchasing the AppleCare Protection Plan while your iPad, you will be automatically logged in the security program.
Service and support by experts of iPad.
With each iPad includes free telephone technical support for 90 days from date of purchase and a one-year limited warranty. With the AppleCare Protection Plan can extend your service coverage to two years from date of purchase iPad. You can contact Apple technical support experts whenever you want, and get answers to your questions. And if you need repair service, we offer convenient service options.
The advantages of the Year Limited Warranty from Apple and the AppleCare Protection Plan in addition to the rights of consumers under the legal guarantee of the seller. Click here for details.
[...]
The benefits of the AppleCare Protection Plan are in addition to rights under applicable consumer protection laws in your country. Under Articles 128-135 of the Legislative Decree n. 206 of September 6, 2005 (Consumer Code), Italian consumers have up to 26 months to inform the seller of a product defect existing at the time of delivery thereof. It is assumed that the defects that occur during the first 6 months after delivery of the product already existed at the time of delivery. A consumer who wishes to make a warranty claim under the Consumer Code against Apple may contact an Apple Authorized Service Provider to establish the existence of the defect at the time of delivery.
[...]
I have to agree with you here. While Apple will comply they do not make it well known. I had a keyboard go bad on a MBP. It was 13 months so technically out of the one year warranty. When I took it in they initially asked me to pay for it but I reminded them that they are required to repair factory defects according to EU law. Suddenly things changed and they took it in and repaired it for free. A good friend that works for Apple says that this is common, as most people do not know the European regulations and simply pay.
And I think you shouldn't speak unless you do a little research to find out what the law really provides. Because (and I know this from living and working in several countries in the EU and buying several computers etc) the law is that the seller must cover all repair or replacement of any item up to 2 years from date of purchase for DEFECTS PRESENT AT DELIVERY. The first 3-6 months (depending on the country) is no questions asked. After that, in all countries but the Czech Republic and Romania, the customer has to prove the defect was present at delivery.
At no time has anyone shown that they were denied coverage of such a defeat for an item bought from Apple after getting refutable proof that the defect was there when they bought it. So how can you say that Apple isn't providing the required warranty. Or are you saying it because this agency is of the mind that Apple should offer their voluntary and way above what is required warranty for free to be nice to folks even though there is no law requiring it
Swing and a miss... As I posted earlier, my MBP laptop died at 13 months and Apple fixed it. Not sure where you worked but it doesn't sound like the EU country where I live....
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP
After 6 months the consumer has to prove the fault was present at the time of purchase or delivery.
As long as the customer can prove it, then I don't have any problems with that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by boeyc15
Perché è ridicolo? Two years sounds good to me.
because Apple cannot build a device that last 2 years without repairs
Heh, good one.
Troooolll
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][
I wouldn't believe anybody who claimed that they had a faulty headphone socket and they never did anything about it for two whole years. It's much more likely, that the device was 100% fine, and the defect occurred afterwards, and then that would be the customer's own fault.
This Euro law seems like a goldmine for scammers, liars and shady people. And that's why I mentioned that Apple should be very strict when enforcing it.
don't be so sure about that. I have a MBP 17" that has a faulty headphone socket, but I have never informed Apple, and the thing is over a year old... it never worked right from day 1... it doesn't bother me enough to go without my machine for a week to get it repaired..
I doubt I'll ever get it fixed, I just don't care about it, but if what I'm using the machine for changes while its still under warranty, i'll get it fixed, but I wouldn't expect any company to believe anyone who goes 2 years after they bought something and wants something fixed because it was broken on delivery.
Quote:
Originally Posted by doh123
don't be so sure about that. I have a MBP 17" that has a faulty headphone socket, but I have never informed Apple, and the thing is over a year old... it never worked right from day 1... it doesn't bother me enough to go without my machine for a week to get it repaired..
I doubt I'll ever get it fixed, I just don't care about it, but if what I'm using the machine for changes while its still under warranty, i'll get it fixed, but I wouldn't expect any company to believe anyone who goes 2 years after they bought something and wants something fixed because it was broken on delivery.
In your case, you're admitting that the faulty headphone socket is not important to you, and it is of course your choice to not do anything about it.
But surely, you would agree that having ridiculously long warranties where customers could come in years after they bought something and claim that it was always broken is not necessarily a good law, and it would encourage certain people to take advantage of it, which would cause Apple's revenue to shrink.
I do believe that if there is something wrong with somebody's device, that they should get it fixed in a reasonable amount of time, if it is important to them, and not many years later.
And as usual, after this excessive and insulting troll statement, no ban for him. Keep on the good job on letting people talk like that!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][
I do believe that if there is something wrong with somebody's device, that they should get it fixed in a reasonable amount of time, if it is important to them, and not many years later.
Yes, as long as the fault manifests itself within a 'reasonable' amount of time. You'd be pretty cheesed off if your 60k car disintegrated after 2 years and a week only for the manufacturer to turn round and say you should have pointed out the problem before it happened...
Hi everybody!
I'm italian, so please excuse me if my english is not perfect. The case is a little bit more complex than what the foreign press wrote. First of all, the 2 years warranty is an EU directive. Second, someone posted this: "After 6 months the consumer has to prove the fault was present at the time of purchase or delivery". There's no such thing in the law. The fault can manifest itself even two weeks before the deadline, the consumer has only to prove that the fault is not user-generated.
The first AGCOM ruling focused on two aspect, brought to light by the consumer association Altroconsumo:
1) Apple refused to comply with the 2 years warranty directive;
2) Apple hided the 2 years warranty in order to sell its AppleCare Program.
Punished with a 900.000 euro fine, Apple was asked to update its website in order to give the correct information to the consumers. But nothing happened. Or, at least, it happened but not completely. As someone posted before, you can still read the old warranty and AppleCare program on the website. AGCOM believes this is a clear ruling infringement, and that's why Apple is facing another 300.000 euro fine and the hypothetical (it's quite unlikely it will ever be effective) 30 days ban. If you call Apple today (I asked when i bought my new iPad), they will provide the 2 years warranty required by the law. But it seems Apple is reluctant to advertise the new warranty program to the public - you have to call and ask - obviously because it makes AppleCare useless.
I can't say if a two years warranty is fair for the consumer or an exaggerated measure, but similar cases are rising in several EU nation (France, Germany...). Apple was the only company who refused to comply with the law.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee
Yeah, but the whole idea of a free two year warranty on a modern electronic device is a bit ridiculous.
No other place has this and Italy is just a part of Europe. If it was up to me I would simply leave Italy. It's not like you can't drive to a neighbouring country in five minutes to get an Apple device. Sometimes the proper reaction to a law is not to give in to it but to decide to go elsewhere where the laws are more reasonable.
I know lots of folks who refuse to travel to the USA anymore for this same reason (although the laws in question are much more serious than just whether you get a refund on your purchases or not).
We don't care whether it is ridiculous or not (you didn't explain why it'd be ridiculous): it is the law!
Other places have this, like the whole of the EU.
Good chance finding a neighbouring country when you live in Rome.
PS: what is with this cocky attitude of the die hard Apple-is-always-right-kind-of-supporters. You might start with respecting the LAW.
And BTW, we know as a fact that Apple does play with words (eg '4G'* - * valid only in North America)
here http://www.apple.com/it/support/products/
"Tutti i prodotti hardware Apple includono una garanzia limitata di un anno e 90 giorni di assistenza tecnica telefonica gratuita.*Per estendere la copertura, acquista AppleCare Protection Plan."
Translation: "All Apple hardware comes with a one-year limited warranty and up to 90 days of complimentary telephone technical support. To extend your coverage further, purchase the AppleCare Protection Plan".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][
I wouldn't believe anybody who claimed that they had a faulty headphone socket and they never did anything about it for two whole years. It's much more likely, that the device was 100% fine, and the defect occurred afterwards, and then that would be the customer's own fault.
This Euro law seems like a goldmine for scammers, liars and shady people. And that's why I mentioned that Apple should be very strict when enforcing it.
I had my iPhone 4 the day it was released. 12 months and two weeks later the noise cancelling mic quit, and I couldn't take any video with audio that didn't sound like white noise, and the phone part of the phone didn't work correctly either. Speakerphone didn't work at all, and everyone I talked to said I sounded very garbled. I verified that one failure made my iPhone completely useless as a phone by calling myself and I couldn't understand a damn thing coming out the other end. One tiny part failed, and the primary feature of the device became 100% worthless. Apples said I could pay them another $200 to replace it because "the mic couldn't be changed" and I was told to basically get over it or pay for another phone. That's complete bullshit. The phone because unusable as a phone, and the super nice camera they boasted about became just as useless. It most definitely was not my fault, it was never dropped, never exposed to moisture, and didn't have a scratch on it. The defect was Apples and you're an idiot for saying that every problem is the fault of the owner, and not the device. Instead of getting ripped off by Apple for their failure, I bought another noise cancelling mic and replaced it in less than an hour. Serves as a great device for my Mom now. If Apple is going to sell a device that comes with a 2-year telephone contract, it shouldn't fail in that two years, and if it does it should be fixed/replaced without any cost to the customer.
Perhaps nothing indicates how clueless the EU is better than describing a two-year warranty as "free." If it costs Apple, it'll be reflected in the price.
Much of what the EU does, particularly joining the Greek and Germany economies under one currency, seems to be attempting to dictate by fiat things that simply cannot be. It's a bit like trying to prevent suicides from tall buildings by suspending the law of gravity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HKZ
The defect was Apples and you're an idiot for saying that every problem is the fault of the owner, and not the device. Instead of getting ripped off by Apple for their failure, I bought another noise cancelling mic and replaced it in less than an hour. Serves as a great device for my Mom now. If Apple is going to sell a device that comes with a 2-year telephone contract, it shouldn't fail in that two years, and if it does it should be fixed/replaced without any cost to the customer.
Unless you suffer from reading comprehension problems, I never stated that every problem is the fault of the owner. Some are, some aren't.
As for your iPhone, if you're in the US, you get a one year warranty. If you wish to be extra safe, then you should've gotten AppleCare.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco Grigis
Hi everybody!
I'm italian, so please excuse me if my english is not perfect.
Your English is quite good actually, better than that of many who happen to have English as their native tongue.
It is just that the Italian consumer group tries to misinterpret the law and eants people to believe that implied warranty and warranty are the same, which is not the case. Neither do implied warranties include phone support (which ACPP includes), nor do they help the consumer after six months, if he can't prove that a defect was present when the device was delivered. Let's say a HDD fails after 9 months. ACPP will replace it, no questions asked, covering all shipping, handling and the actual repair. EU implied warranty will force you to prove that the HDD was defective at the time of delivery. How exactly would you do that? You have been working for 9 months with a defective drive? Fail. You go to a certified, sworn-in expert, who writes a professional statement after taking the HDD apart and performing detailed analysis of the materials and if they are within specification? Another good idea. This will exceed the price of the HDD by far, it could go wrong (if the expert finds no such error) and the cost for the expert will not be reimbursed to you under the EU law anyhow... It simply has little merit (in cases where it is 100% obvious).
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
It does look like they are honouring the 2 year warranty but it also looks like they are being disingenuous by obfuscating that fact when they try to sell the extended two-year AppleCare warranty. Seems suspect to me.
edit: This is the translation of the AppleCare section when you go to buy an iPad from the Italian Apple Store:
Quote:
AppleCare Protection Plan
Service and support offered by experts iPad. Up to two years from original purchase date of your iPad, AppleCare Protection Plan gives you:
• Technical support in a flash: direct access to Apple experts
• Cover Hardware Apple iPad, battery and included accessories
• Software support: iTunes, iWork, iPad, the operating system and connecting to wireless networks
By purchasing the AppleCare Protection Plan while your iPad, you will be automatically logged in the security program.
Service and support by experts of iPad.
With each iPad includes free telephone technical support for 90 days from date of purchase and a one-year limited warranty. With the AppleCare Protection Plan can extend your service coverage to two years from date of purchase iPad. You can contact Apple technical support experts whenever you want, and get answers to your questions. And if you need repair service, we offer convenient service options.
The advantages of the Year Limited Warranty from Apple and the AppleCare Protection Plan in addition to the rights of consumers under the legal guarantee of the seller. Click here for details.
[...]
The benefits of the AppleCare Protection Plan are in addition to rights under applicable consumer protection laws in your country. Under Articles 128-135 of the Legislative Decree n. 206 of September 6, 2005 (Consumer Code), Italian consumers have up to 26 months to inform the seller of a product defect existing at the time of delivery thereof. It is assumed that the defects that occur during the first 6 months after delivery of the product already existed at the time of delivery. A consumer who wishes to make a warranty claim under the Consumer Code against Apple may contact an Apple Authorized Service Provider to establish the existence of the defect at the time of delivery.
[...]
I have to agree with you here. While Apple will comply they do not make it well known. I had a keyboard go bad on a MBP. It was 13 months so technically out of the one year warranty. When I took it in they initially asked me to pay for it but I reminded them that they are required to repair factory defects according to EU law. Suddenly things changed and they took it in and repaired it for free. A good friend that works for Apple says that this is common, as most people do not know the European regulations and simply pay.
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna
And I think you shouldn't speak unless you do a little research to find out what the law really provides. Because (and I know this from living and working in several countries in the EU and buying several computers etc) the law is that the seller must cover all repair or replacement of any item up to 2 years from date of purchase for DEFECTS PRESENT AT DELIVERY. The first 3-6 months (depending on the country) is no questions asked. After that, in all countries but the Czech Republic and Romania, the customer has to prove the defect was present at delivery.
At no time has anyone shown that they were denied coverage of such a defeat for an item bought from Apple after getting refutable proof that the defect was there when they bought it. So how can you say that Apple isn't providing the required warranty. Or are you saying it because this agency is of the mind that Apple should offer their voluntary and way above what is required warranty for free to be nice to folks even though there is no law requiring it
Swing and a miss... As I posted earlier, my MBP laptop died at 13 months and Apple fixed it. Not sure where you worked but it doesn't sound like the EU country where I live....