Would that be the same history that showed that people didn't want large phones that allowed them to access the internet
What are you referring to? We did have conventional wisdom that the market requires a physical keyboard to be a player, but that's been disproven.
or that people didn't want to use touch screen devices that lacked a leyboard?
Who said that? Besides, most, if not all, the Windows Tablets before Surface had keyboards.
Surely history frequently demonstrates that people don't really know what they want until someone influential tells them what they want.
Are you saying Bill Gates isn't influential?
5 years ago who would have predicted that grown adults would be walking around with rubber bands around their wrists proclaiming their support for this charity or that organisation?
Rubber wrist bands are over a decade old.
Besides, an argument about a lack of market history for an idea is different from an argument about a history of a lack of demand for said idea. To restate it, there's a difference between trying an idea in the market and failing several times over 20 years, and trying to market something truly different that has no previous history. A tablet with a full-blown desktop operating system has been tried several times, notably with Windows 3.x Pen Editions and Windows XP Tablet Edition, which was very heavily marketed at that. What makes Surface special that will cause it to escape that fate?
Not sure that I understand the MicroSoft statement. How can any firm offer you chioces outside their own sector? With regard to the OEM exclusivity, I doubt very much that MS would even attempt to do that. They are already one of the most regulated tech firms in the world. Indeed one might argue that the recent success of iOS means that MS should be the subject of fewer antitrust cases from now on. Is it really fair that the best selling desktop OS has to offer alternative browsers whereas the best selling tablet OS doesn't?
You misunderstand. Microsoft tried to deny OEMs the ability to sell Linux computers, in other words, they're Microsoft-only or they don't sell anything with Microsoft on it. http://www.justice.gov/atr/cases/f0000/0046.htm
The tech industry isn't very regulated at all. Microsoft did have DoJ oversight because of judgements regarding the above case, but that's expired now. The EU has some restrictions on Microsoft, but largely related to web browsers.
"You don't have to make a compromise," Gates said. "You can have everything you like about a tablet and everything you like about a PC all in one device..."
You know, I'm a motorcyclist and this reminds me of those dual-sport motorcycles: Not great for asphalt and not great for gravel. A matter of fact, trying to satisfy two crowds never work.
Wow, I can't believe how shortsighted some of you Apple fanboys are. Maybe post some reasonable critiques or responses instead of just calling Bill Gates a "moron." It makes you look stupid and childish.
Maybe you're right, Apple should keep the iPad exactly the same and never change anything. After all, it worked out great with the iPhone. The original iPhone, which had no third party apps and relied on "web apps" accessed through the browser to do anything that couldn't be done through the built-in apps... that was a great idea that completely took off, proving that Apple always knows best. Oh wait.
Apple is not perfect or infallible. Constantly innovating and improving their own products is what has made them popular and powerful. I am dumbfounded that their own fans think Apple should do a 180 and start doing the opposite of what they have been doing - just twiddle their thumbs and never change anything.
This is not to say that the Microsoft Surface is superior to the iPad, or even a good product in the first place. That remains to be seen. But the point is, the Surface is doing something no iPad-era tablet has done before - it's moving up market and attempting to serve as a replacement for a computer, rather than a companion to one. Again, we don't know how good it is, but it is trying things the iPad has not tried yet. Even if it's not a great product on its own (and I will emphasize we don't know if it'll be good or not since it hasn't been released yet), it could introduce some features that Apple may want to emulate in the next iPad.
Wow, I can't believe how shortsighted some of you Apple fanboys are. Maybe post some reasonable critiques or responses instead of just calling Bill Gates a "moron." It makes you look stupid and childish.
Maybe you're right, Apple should keep the iPad exactly the same and never change anything. After all, it worked out great with the iPhone. The original iPhone, which had no third party apps and relied on "web apps" accessed through the browser to do anything that couldn't be done through the built-in apps... that was a great idea that completely took off, proving that Apple always knows best. Oh wait.
Apple is not perfect or infallible. Constantly innovating and improving their own products is what has made them popular and powerful. I am dumbfounded that their own fans think Apple should do a 180 and start doing the opposite of what they have been doing - just twiddle their thumbs and never change anything.
This is not to say that the Microsoft Surface is superior to the iPad, or even a good product in the first place. That remains to be seen. But the point is, the Surface is doing something no iPad-era tablet has done before - it's moving up market and attempting to serve as a replacement for a computer, rather than a companion to one. Again, we don't know how good it is, but it is trying things the iPad has not tried yet. Even if it's not a great product on its own (and I will emphasize we don't know if it'll be good or not since it hasn't been released yet), it could introduce some features that Apple may want to emulate in the next iPad.
It's not doing anything. Why can't we get that? You even state it hasn't been released and that we don't know how good it is...but before that you state that it is doing something no iPad-era tablet has done before...no it isn't. It's not doing anything meaningful yet. It can't attempt to do anything when the market hasn't seen one in a retail setting and people don't have them in their hands. Right now it's attempting to gain hype. That's it. It certainly has a lot of that, but until Microsoft releases this thing to the masses...it remains hype. Why anyone would want to hype a product that was basically DOA at its own demonstration and then only given to people to touch for a few second before being moved along is beyond me.
Also, maybe I didn't read the entire thread, but I don't recall anyone saying Apple shouldn't continue to improve. Apple improves their products all the time...maybe they like the form-factor enough that they leave that alone while incrementally improving the internals, but that's still improvement. Sure, Apple likes to dictate what it thinks is best for the consumer but there are certainly times when it will break down and listen to its customers. Consider the iPod shuffle. It used to be a flash stick IIRC that then morphed into a little rectangle with a tiny click-wheel type interface...that then morphed into a taller thinner version without any real buttons and relying on the headphones to change songs and volume. People didn't really go for that one from what I understand so the next one came out looking like the second gen model with the click-wheel...which people liked better I assume. Steve Jobs had said in the past that mistakes will be made...Apple has never been infallible...even he knew that. Usually they learn from their mistakes and move on. Microsoft on the other hand, never seems to learn from its failures. It just comes out with something else that has no thought put into it and then lobs millions of ad bucks into it...only to watch it fester away as a footnote in the history of that particular market.
Will the Surface be good? Will it flounder? Will it do ok? Who knows. Wait and see. Until then don't give this thing any credit as doing anything against any currently released product. It isn't doing anything against them yet. Wait and see. Please god, wait and see.
"You don't have to make a compromise," Gates said. "You can have everything you like about a tablet and everything you like about a PC all in one device..."
You know, I'm a motorcyclist and this reminds me of those dual-sport motorcycles: Not great for asphalt and not great for gravel. A matter of fact, trying to satisfy two crowds never work.
Bill...go save the world or something.
Perish the thought that anyone would would marry a media player and phone.
Is it really? Someone might say insisting on beautifully crafted slim aluminium unibody laptop that will mostly be used for Facebook, web, email... is also snobbery.
I disagree.
yes, really it is. (and the rest of that reply is a total non-sequitur.)
Wow, I can't believe how shortsighted some of you Apple fanboys are. Maybe post some reasonable critiques or responses instead of just calling Bill Gates a "moron." It makes you look stupid and childish.
Maybe you're right, Apple should keep the iPad exactly the same and never change anything. After all, it worked out great with the iPhone. The original iPhone, which had no third party apps and relied on "web apps" accessed through the browser to do anything that couldn't be done through the built-in apps... that was a great idea that completely took off, proving that Apple always knows best. Oh wait.
Apple is not perfect or infallible. Constantly innovating and improving their own products is what has made them popular and powerful. I am dumbfounded that their own fans think Apple should do a 180 and start doing the opposite of what they have been doing - just twiddle their thumbs and never change anything.
This is not to say that the Microsoft Surface is superior to the iPad, or even a good product in the first place. That remains to be seen. But the point is, the Surface is doing something no iPad-era tablet has done before - it's moving up market and attempting to serve as a replacement for a computer, rather than a companion to one. Again, we don't know how good it is, but it is trying things the iPad has not tried yet. Even if it's not a great product on its own (and I will emphasize we don't know if it'll be good or not since it hasn't been released yet), it could introduce some features that Apple may want to emulate in the next iPad.
Spanky, here's some unsolicited advice:
Don't come into an Apple-oriented web site and start by calling people "shortsighted" "Apple fanboys"... most people will tune out after that opening.
You claim that the Surface when/if it arrives is "doing something no iPad-era tablet has done before - it's moving up market and attempting to serve as a replacement for a computer, rather than a companion to one."
You don't seem to understand what the iPad is -- it's a new category -- a post pc device. It isn't a PC WannaBe, it is a new category servicing a different need (quite well, thank you).
What you are suggesting is, that after creating a new category and a new solution -- that the iPad should regress and merge with the categories it replaced.
That would be like putting a dimple QWERTY KB on an iPhone or hitching a horse to a Model A -- it makes no sense. We already have better tablets and laptops than either Surface will ever be!
BTW, Apple has been at this a while, and I suspect they have tried and rejected all the things that the Surface is attempting to be/do.
The best Windows mobile computers are made by Apple!
One thing that no one has yet to mentioned is that no one talked about the performance of the OS on the hardware. As both a windows user and a mac user, and I want to point out that I'm not a specific fanboy of either... I know for a fact that after using windows over time, you notice a performance degradation. Whether the degradation is attributed to fragmentation, bloated registry, blah blah blah...but the performance does in fact degrade. On a apple device whether it's an iDevice or a apple computer, there is degradation as well, but significantly much less than windows. I know after several months of use, I always have to do a reinstall to get a "clean" system again... I wonder if the surface will be in the same boat.
I didn't see that he is from Minnesota. I grew up in New Hope and Plymouth...my mother also grew up in St. Jewish park. I think thats like African-American people and the whole N word thing...since I'm Jewish I get to call it that. Anyway I'm in Rochester now...and there isn't much to do here. I deeply miss the West Metro. : (
Ok enough of that...back to tablets that don't exist but are spoken about as if they do.
One thing that no one has yet to mentioned is that no one talked about the performance of the OS on the hardware. As both a windows user and a mac user, and I want to point out that I'm not a specific fanboy of either... I know for a fact that after using windows over time, you notice a performance degradation. Whether the degradation is attributed to fragmentation, bloated registry, blah blah blah...but the performance does in fact degrade. On a apple device whether it's an iDevice or a apple computer, there is degradation as well, but significantly much less than windows. I know after several months of use, I always have to do a reinstall to get a "clean" system again... I wonder if the surface will be in the same boat.
I would ask which one you use more? All devices degrade and from my experiance I wouldnt say there was much difference between Apple and Microsoft. I also question how much is down to the hardware rather than the OS. For instance my iBook G4 and iMac G5 degraded much faster than my intel based macs. Particularly the iMac G5 degraded faster than any machine I've ever owned. My iPhone 3G also degraded a lot faster than my HTC HD7, could be the OS but could also be hardware improving over years.
End of the day the Surface is going to degrade. But it could be less as if you use Metro apps more than traditional Windows app there going to be a lot more restrictive in messing up your machine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by carmelapple
It's not doing anything. Why can't we get that? You even state it hasn't been released and that we don't know how good it is...but before that you state that it is doing something no iPad-era tablet has done before...no it isn't. It's not doing anything meaningful yet. It can't attempt to do anything when the market hasn't seen one in a retail setting and people don't have them in their hands. Right now it's attempting to gain hype. That's it. It certainly has a lot of that, but until Microsoft releases this thing to the masses...it remains hype. Why anyone would want to hype a product that was basically DOA at its own demonstration and then only given to people to touch for a few second before being moved along is beyond me.
Also, maybe I didn't read the entire thread, but I don't recall anyone saying Apple shouldn't continue to improve. Apple improves their products all the time...maybe they like the form-factor enough that they leave that alone while incrementally improving the internals, but that's still improvement. Sure, Apple likes to dictate what it thinks is best for the consumer but there are certainly times when it will break down and listen to its customers. Consider the iPod shuffle. It used to be a flash stick IIRC that then morphed into a little rectangle with a tiny click-wheel type interface...that then morphed into a taller thinner version without any real buttons and relying on the headphones to change songs and volume. People didn't really go for that one from what I understand so the next one came out looking like the second gen model with the click-wheel...which people liked better I assume. Steve Jobs had said in the past that mistakes will be made...Apple has never been infallible...even he knew that. Usually they learn from their mistakes and move on. Microsoft on the other hand, never seems to learn from its failures. It just comes out with something else that has no thought put into it and then lobs millions of ad bucks into it...only to watch it fester away as a footnote in the history of that particular market.
Will the Surface be good? Will it flounder? Will it do ok? Who knows. Wait and see. Until then don't give this thing any credit as doing anything against any currently released product. It isn't doing anything against them yet. Wait and see. Please god, wait and see.
I get your point, but at the same time can't help but think of my opinion with Apple products between being announced and anyone actually being able to touch them. Between the original iPhone being demonstrated and anyone actually getting one to play with I had a good opinion of the device.
All we're really waiting on with this thing is how good the keyboard is to type on. But in my experiance with keyboards is you generally get used to them. There was a time when people may have questioned the iPad keyboard giving zero feedback, but I can type on it perfectly fine.
i can say i use them both fairly equally with the macs a bit more.
while i think both version of the surface has it's strengths...they both have equally high weakness which imho might not make it a success...
1. the ARM version: while the notion that it's going to run "Apps" only, the downside is that the "Apps" library is not going to be as extensive as the other platforms out there which means it's going to be tough to have developer's want to develop for it since the target audience is low.
2. the Pro version: while it's great that it can run full windows and windows applications to all it's glory... we might see performance issues and since most of these applications are not designed for multitouch, the form factor of the device will require the use of the keyboard, mouse, stylus, blah blah blah...which begs the question....why not just get an ultrabook?
I would ask which one you use more? All devices degrade and from my experiance I wouldnt say there was much difference between Apple and Microsoft. I also question how much is down to the hardware rather than the OS. For instance my iBook G4 and iMac G5 degraded much faster than my intel based macs. Particularly the iMac G5 degraded faster than any machine I've ever owned. My iPhone 3G also degraded a lot faster than my HTC HD7, could be the OS but could also be hardware improving over years.
End of the day the Surface is going to degrade. But it could be less as if you use Metro apps more than traditional Windows app there going to be a lot more restrictive in messing up your machine.
I get your point, but at the same time can't help but think of my opinion with Apple products between being announced and anyone actually being able to touch them. Between the original iPhone being demonstrated and anyone actually getting one to play with I had a good opinion of the device.
All we're really waiting on with this thing is how good the keyboard is to type on. But in my experiance with keyboards is you generally get used to them. There was a time when people may have questioned the iPad keyboard giving zero feedback, but I can type on it perfectly fine.
I used them both fairly equally...with a tendency a bit more on the mac side.
i can say i use them both fairly equally with the macs a bit more.
while i think both version of the surface has it's strengths...they both have equally high weakness which imho might not make it a success...
1. the ARM version: while the notion that it's going to run "Apps" only, the downside is that the "Apps" library is not going to be as extensive as the other platforms out there which means it's going to be tough to have developer's want to develop for it since the target audience is low.
2. the Pro version: while it's great that it can run full windows and windows applications to all it's glory... we might see performance issues and since most of these applications are not designed for multitouch, the form factor of the device will require the use of the keyboard, mouse, stylus, blah blah blah...which begs the question....why not just get an ultrabook?
I doubt the number of apps is going to be an issue. Wp7 has over 100,000 apps despite its low number of users. The apps will be available for anything running windows 8 so within a year or 2 it will have the biggest customer base for developers.
Pro version I agree is going to have battery issues running legacy apps. Apps running in full screen is what allows the os to do some tricks to save power and that's not going to be possible in desktop mode. Still there is the benefit over an ultra book that you can get rid of the keyboard when your on a train or the sofa and you just want to use it as a tablet.
It amazes me how shortsighted some of the criticism is.
"You don't have to make a compromise, you can have everything you like about a tablet and everything you like about a PC all in one device. And so that should change the way people look at things."
Surface is trying to marry the tablet experience with the PC experience. It may be too soon and it might very well fail. But I think one would have to be shortsighted not to believe that Apple will be going to that same place eventually. If surface is successful it will just speed up the process.
At some point iOS and OSX are going to merge or one will replace the other (likely iOS getting further developed to the point where it's suitable for everyone's computing needs) and Apple will have a device that has no compromises in that there won't be anything you can't do on the tablet form factor that can do on the pc form factor.
Competetion is good and I really hope Surface is successful because if it is, the speed of innovation on the Apple side will be forced to remain high unlike if none of the other tablets take off and Apple is able to coast.
I've been using Macs since they were called NeXT, and I exclusively use Macs because Windoze blows.
That said, despite of what all the fanboys say, technology trickles down. Your iPhone runs a former mainframe timesharing OS called UNIX, you just don't know it. Your MacBook Air runs a former workstation OS that used to be called NeXTSTEP. Convergence is the rule, not the exception in the tech world, and from that point of view, Gates as more than just a small point.
The reason why iOS is dumbed down, is because current CPUs/battery tech doesn't allow for the experience we want in a tablet, without sacrificing something. For a desktop-level OS to run properly, you need anywhere between 4-16GB of RAM, depending on what you do, which is a multiple of what any iOS device has right now. It also requires paging, which would be an issue for battery life and cheap affordable flash storage, so more expensive SSD-type flash memory would have to be used, which would push an iPad quickly into the MacBook Air price range.
That however doesn't mean, that we really need or want two different devices. What we need is a single OS that can switch UI personality. Imagine a case that looks like an MacBook Air: with the keyboard in use, you have a Mac OS X user interface, you fold the screen over, or detach it, and you have a touch tablet with an UI like on an iPad.
The underlying OS in iOS and OS X is essentially the same, just the GUI layer is different. Nothing prevents "universal apps" that not only adapt between iPhone and iPad form factors and UI layout, but can change their appearance and UI style based on what mode a device is in beyond that, and adapt to a desktop app.
Give it a few more years, your iPhone snaps in a docking station with a thunderbolt connector, and on your 27" CinemaDisplay, you'll be running OS X with universal apps. No need to buy an iOS version pf Pages and an OS X version of Pages, you'll have a copy of Pages that will adapt to your current working style: phone, tablet, desktop.
Similarly, pen computing isn't dead. While Jobs was right that a finger is one of the best pointing devices, a finger is a horrible drawing and writing device. Sooner or later we'll want to precisely draw things on a screen, and despite dictation, we'll want handwriting recognition. On screen touch-keyboard is better than lousy handwriting recognition, but I'd take good handwriting recognition over a screen keyboard any day, and certainly I wouldn't want to sit in an airplane or office, where everyone tries to dictate to their computer.
Video Telephony and Voice Recognition have one thing in common: they sound sexy, but have limited use. Who wants to pick up a Facetime call while in the bathroom, lounging around in bed half naked, etc.? A phone call, you can accept in just about any situation, because people don't see what state you're in or what you're doing. Voice recognition is useless as soon as you have multiple people in a room, because it's a nuisance to have to listen to everyone interact with their machines, and because sensitive data becomes very audible. So this stuff demos well, but is not very practical in most situations.
So the problem with Microsoft's complementary approach isn't that it's fundamentally wrong, but that it's premature, because battery life/form factor will disappoint (leaving the factor called "Windows" out of the picture for the moment, because any Apple device that would be "Surface" like wouldn't run Windows anyway...)
Sooner or later, if Apple isn't brain dead, iOS will add support for some sort of pen input for drawing and writing, while retaining a touch capable interface for most things.
Sooner or later, iOS and OS X will converge, unless Apple tries to milk the market for too long by making people buy two devices where one would suffice (but that would open a door for competitors who get it).
But the time isn't now. We need another leap in power efficiency, we'd need to have an iPad sized device with a multi-core 64-bit ARM chip with a MMU, and SSD-grade flash memory, a 10h battery life, and a form factor not significantly exceeding that of the current iPad.
About the keyboard cover: It's great, but Apple doesn't have to do it, because there are at least half a dozen companies offering such covers for the iPad right now.
Wow, I can't believe how shortsighted some of you Apple fanboys are. Maybe post some reasonable critiques or responses instead of just calling Bill Gates a "moron." It makes you look stupid and childish.
Maybe you're right, Apple should keep the iPad exactly the same and never change anything. After all, it worked out great with the iPhone. The original iPhone, which had no third party apps and relied on "web apps" accessed through the browser to do anything that couldn't be done through the built-in apps... that was a great idea that completely took off, proving that Apple always knows best. Oh wait.
Apple is not perfect or infallible. Constantly innovating and improving their own products is what has made them popular and powerful. I am dumbfounded that their own fans think Apple should do a 180 and start doing the opposite of what they have been doing - just twiddle their thumbs and never change anything.
This is not to say that the Microsoft Surface is superior to the iPad, or even a good product in the first place. That remains to be seen. But the point is, the Surface is doing something no iPad-era tablet has done before - it's moving up market and attempting to serve as a replacement for a computer, rather than a companion to one. Again, we don't know how good it is, but it is trying things the iPad has not tried yet. Even if it's not a great product on its own (and I will emphasize we don't know if it'll be good or not since it hasn't been released yet), it could introduce some features that Apple may want to emulate in the next iPad.
Short sighted? Did you read post 114? The premise of my argument is that Microsoft doesn't have a suitable marketing strategy. MS sells its wares through Dell, HP, and Acer. I assume none of them will sell the Surface. So where is MS going to sell this thing? If MS sells to retailers like Best Buy, it will be targeting a consumer market, yet the most attractive feature of the device is that it runs full versions of MS Office and has a powerful processor (i.e., features that enterprise users want). What's your response?
Also, there were many posts about how a soft keyboard doesn't work unless you have a hard surface like a table. What's your response to that?
At some point iOS and OSX are going to merge or one will replace the other (likely iOS getting further developed to the point where it's suitable for everyone's computing needs) and Apple will have a device that has no compromises in that there won't be anything you can't do on the tablet form factor that can do on the pc form factor.
I fully agree, but it's worth pointing out that iOS and OS X are the same OS already. It's only the GUI layer that's different, some kernel tuning parameters are different, and the code is compiled for a different CPU type. But underneath, the same Mach-BSD-UNIX is there, CoreFoundation is there, etc. What's missing is the shell level, but if your iOS device is jailbroken, you can install that quickly.
Basically, iOS is OS X light, with the different GUI layer, and with all of the backwards compatibility crap thrown out. By the time iOS "grows up" it's going to be identical to OS X.
The idea that we're dealing with two separate operating systems is not right.
To make the point: this is what iOS 5.1.1 reports:
Quote:
Darwin localhost 11.0.0 Darwin Kernel Version 11.0.0: Sun Apr 8 21:51:26 PDT 2012; root:xnu-1878.11.10~1/RELEASE_ARM_S5L8930X iPhone3,1 arm N90AP Darwin
And this is what Mac OS X 10.7.4 reports:
Quote:
Darwin localhost 11.4.0 Darwin Kernel Version 11.4.0: Mon Apr 9 19:32:15 PDT 2012; root:xnu-1699.26.8~1/RELEASE_X86_64 x86_64
Same code base, different version. Mac OS X 10.7.0 was Darwin 11.0.0, so iOS 5 uses the same base as Mac OS X 10.7.
OS X 10.8 will use Darwin 12.x.x and likely that's what iOS 6 will use, too.
The two systems progress in lock-step until the point where they are unified.
Comments
What are you referring to? We did have conventional wisdom that the market requires a physical keyboard to be a player, but that's been disproven.
Who said that? Besides, most, if not all, the Windows Tablets before Surface had keyboards.
Are you saying Bill Gates isn't influential?
Rubber wrist bands are over a decade old.
Besides, an argument about a lack of market history for an idea is different from an argument about a history of a lack of demand for said idea. To restate it, there's a difference between trying an idea in the market and failing several times over 20 years, and trying to market something truly different that has no previous history. A tablet with a full-blown desktop operating system has been tried several times, notably with Windows 3.x Pen Editions and Windows XP Tablet Edition, which was very heavily marketed at that. What makes Surface special that will cause it to escape that fate?
You misunderstand. Microsoft tried to deny OEMs the ability to sell Linux computers, in other words, they're Microsoft-only or they don't sell anything with Microsoft on it. http://www.justice.gov/atr/cases/f0000/0046.htm
The tech industry isn't very regulated at all. Microsoft did have DoJ oversight because of judgements regarding the above case, but that's expired now. The EU has some restrictions on Microsoft, but largely related to web browsers.
'Heavy-duty' (desktop) software + Intel x86 CPU + ultra-thin form = low battery life. Surely?
"You don't have to make a compromise," Gates said. "You can have everything you like about a tablet and everything you like about a PC all in one device..."
You know, I'm a motorcyclist and this reminds me of those dual-sport motorcycles: Not great for asphalt and not great for gravel. A matter of fact, trying to satisfy two crowds never work.
Bill...go save the world or something.
It just occurred to me...
How Do you Charge the battery in either Surface keyboard???
Maybe you're right, Apple should keep the iPad exactly the same and never change anything. After all, it worked out great with the iPhone. The original iPhone, which had no third party apps and relied on "web apps" accessed through the browser to do anything that couldn't be done through the built-in apps... that was a great idea that completely took off, proving that Apple always knows best. Oh wait.
Apple is not perfect or infallible. Constantly innovating and improving their own products is what has made them popular and powerful. I am dumbfounded that their own fans think Apple should do a 180 and start doing the opposite of what they have been doing - just twiddle their thumbs and never change anything.
This is not to say that the Microsoft Surface is superior to the iPad, or even a good product in the first place. That remains to be seen. But the point is, the Surface is doing something no iPad-era tablet has done before - it's moving up market and attempting to serve as a replacement for a computer, rather than a companion to one. Again, we don't know how good it is, but it is trying things the iPad has not tried yet. Even if it's not a great product on its own (and I will emphasize we don't know if it'll be good or not since it hasn't been released yet), it could introduce some features that Apple may want to emulate in the next iPad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luca
Wow, I can't believe how shortsighted some of you Apple fanboys are. Maybe post some reasonable critiques or responses instead of just calling Bill Gates a "moron." It makes you look stupid and childish.
Maybe you're right, Apple should keep the iPad exactly the same and never change anything. After all, it worked out great with the iPhone. The original iPhone, which had no third party apps and relied on "web apps" accessed through the browser to do anything that couldn't be done through the built-in apps... that was a great idea that completely took off, proving that Apple always knows best. Oh wait.
Apple is not perfect or infallible. Constantly innovating and improving their own products is what has made them popular and powerful. I am dumbfounded that their own fans think Apple should do a 180 and start doing the opposite of what they have been doing - just twiddle their thumbs and never change anything.
This is not to say that the Microsoft Surface is superior to the iPad, or even a good product in the first place. That remains to be seen. But the point is, the Surface is doing something no iPad-era tablet has done before - it's moving up market and attempting to serve as a replacement for a computer, rather than a companion to one. Again, we don't know how good it is, but it is trying things the iPad has not tried yet. Even if it's not a great product on its own (and I will emphasize we don't know if it'll be good or not since it hasn't been released yet), it could introduce some features that Apple may want to emulate in the next iPad.
It's not doing anything. Why can't we get that? You even state it hasn't been released and that we don't know how good it is...but before that you state that it is doing something no iPad-era tablet has done before...no it isn't. It's not doing anything meaningful yet. It can't attempt to do anything when the market hasn't seen one in a retail setting and people don't have them in their hands. Right now it's attempting to gain hype. That's it. It certainly has a lot of that, but until Microsoft releases this thing to the masses...it remains hype. Why anyone would want to hype a product that was basically DOA at its own demonstration and then only given to people to touch for a few second before being moved along is beyond me.
Also, maybe I didn't read the entire thread, but I don't recall anyone saying Apple shouldn't continue to improve. Apple improves their products all the time...maybe they like the form-factor enough that they leave that alone while incrementally improving the internals, but that's still improvement. Sure, Apple likes to dictate what it thinks is best for the consumer but there are certainly times when it will break down and listen to its customers. Consider the iPod shuffle. It used to be a flash stick IIRC that then morphed into a little rectangle with a tiny click-wheel type interface...that then morphed into a taller thinner version without any real buttons and relying on the headphones to change songs and volume. People didn't really go for that one from what I understand so the next one came out looking like the second gen model with the click-wheel...which people liked better I assume. Steve Jobs had said in the past that mistakes will be made...Apple has never been infallible...even he knew that. Usually they learn from their mistakes and move on. Microsoft on the other hand, never seems to learn from its failures. It just comes out with something else that has no thought put into it and then lobs millions of ad bucks into it...only to watch it fester away as a footnote in the history of that particular market.
Will the Surface be good? Will it flounder? Will it do ok? Who knows. Wait and see. Until then don't give this thing any credit as doing anything against any currently released product. It isn't doing anything against them yet. Wait and see. Please god, wait and see.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BitBurn
"You don't have to make a compromise," Gates said. "You can have everything you like about a tablet and everything you like about a PC all in one device..."
You know, I'm a motorcyclist and this reminds me of those dual-sport motorcycles: Not great for asphalt and not great for gravel. A matter of fact, trying to satisfy two crowds never work.
Bill...go save the world or something.
Perish the thought that anyone would would marry a media player and phone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133
Is it really? Someone might say insisting on beautifully crafted slim aluminium unibody laptop that will mostly be used for Facebook, web, email... is also snobbery.
I disagree.
yes, really it is. (and the rest of that reply is a total non-sequitur.)
screwed up duplicate... removed
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luca
Wow, I can't believe how shortsighted some of you Apple fanboys are. Maybe post some reasonable critiques or responses instead of just calling Bill Gates a "moron." It makes you look stupid and childish.
Maybe you're right, Apple should keep the iPad exactly the same and never change anything. After all, it worked out great with the iPhone. The original iPhone, which had no third party apps and relied on "web apps" accessed through the browser to do anything that couldn't be done through the built-in apps... that was a great idea that completely took off, proving that Apple always knows best. Oh wait.
Apple is not perfect or infallible. Constantly innovating and improving their own products is what has made them popular and powerful. I am dumbfounded that their own fans think Apple should do a 180 and start doing the opposite of what they have been doing - just twiddle their thumbs and never change anything.
This is not to say that the Microsoft Surface is superior to the iPad, or even a good product in the first place. That remains to be seen. But the point is, the Surface is doing something no iPad-era tablet has done before - it's moving up market and attempting to serve as a replacement for a computer, rather than a companion to one. Again, we don't know how good it is, but it is trying things the iPad has not tried yet. Even if it's not a great product on its own (and I will emphasize we don't know if it'll be good or not since it hasn't been released yet), it could introduce some features that Apple may want to emulate in the next iPad.
Spanky, here's some unsolicited advice:
Don't come into an Apple-oriented web site and start by calling people "shortsighted" "Apple fanboys"... most people will tune out after that opening.
You claim that the Surface when/if it arrives is "doing something no iPad-era tablet has done before - it's moving up market and attempting to serve as a replacement for a computer, rather than a companion to one."
You don't seem to understand what the iPad is -- it's a new category -- a post pc device. It isn't a PC WannaBe, it is a new category servicing a different need (quite well, thank you).
What you are suggesting is, that after creating a new category and a new solution -- that the iPad should regress and merge with the categories it replaced.
That would be like putting a dimple QWERTY KB on an iPhone or hitching a horse to a Model A -- it makes no sense. We already have better tablets and laptops than either Surface will ever be!
BTW, Apple has been at this a while, and I suspect they have tried and rejected all the things that the Surface is attempting to be/do.
The best Windows mobile computers are made by Apple!
BTW,
I. Grew up in St. Louis Park!
One thing that no one has yet to mentioned is that no one talked about the performance of the OS on the hardware. As both a windows user and a mac user, and I want to point out that I'm not a specific fanboy of either... I know for a fact that after using windows over time, you notice a performance degradation. Whether the degradation is attributed to fragmentation, bloated registry, blah blah blah...but the performance does in fact degrade. On a apple device whether it's an iDevice or a apple computer, there is degradation as well, but significantly much less than windows. I know after several months of use, I always have to do a reinstall to get a "clean" system again... I wonder if the surface will be in the same boat.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum
BTW,
I. Grew up in St. Louis Park!
I didn't see that he is from Minnesota. I grew up in New Hope and Plymouth...my mother also grew up in St. Jewish park. I think thats like African-American people and the whole N word thing...since I'm Jewish I get to call it that. Anyway I'm in Rochester now...and there isn't much to do here. I deeply miss the West Metro. : (
Ok enough of that...back to tablets that don't exist but are spoken about as if they do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Athyna.sc
One thing that no one has yet to mentioned is that no one talked about the performance of the OS on the hardware. As both a windows user and a mac user, and I want to point out that I'm not a specific fanboy of either... I know for a fact that after using windows over time, you notice a performance degradation. Whether the degradation is attributed to fragmentation, bloated registry, blah blah blah...but the performance does in fact degrade. On a apple device whether it's an iDevice or a apple computer, there is degradation as well, but significantly much less than windows. I know after several months of use, I always have to do a reinstall to get a "clean" system again... I wonder if the surface will be in the same boat.
I would ask which one you use more? All devices degrade and from my experiance I wouldnt say there was much difference between Apple and Microsoft. I also question how much is down to the hardware rather than the OS. For instance my iBook G4 and iMac G5 degraded much faster than my intel based macs. Particularly the iMac G5 degraded faster than any machine I've ever owned. My iPhone 3G also degraded a lot faster than my HTC HD7, could be the OS but could also be hardware improving over years.
End of the day the Surface is going to degrade. But it could be less as if you use Metro apps more than traditional Windows app there going to be a lot more restrictive in messing up your machine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by carmelapple
It's not doing anything. Why can't we get that? You even state it hasn't been released and that we don't know how good it is...but before that you state that it is doing something no iPad-era tablet has done before...no it isn't. It's not doing anything meaningful yet. It can't attempt to do anything when the market hasn't seen one in a retail setting and people don't have them in their hands. Right now it's attempting to gain hype. That's it. It certainly has a lot of that, but until Microsoft releases this thing to the masses...it remains hype. Why anyone would want to hype a product that was basically DOA at its own demonstration and then only given to people to touch for a few second before being moved along is beyond me.
Also, maybe I didn't read the entire thread, but I don't recall anyone saying Apple shouldn't continue to improve. Apple improves their products all the time...maybe they like the form-factor enough that they leave that alone while incrementally improving the internals, but that's still improvement. Sure, Apple likes to dictate what it thinks is best for the consumer but there are certainly times when it will break down and listen to its customers. Consider the iPod shuffle. It used to be a flash stick IIRC that then morphed into a little rectangle with a tiny click-wheel type interface...that then morphed into a taller thinner version without any real buttons and relying on the headphones to change songs and volume. People didn't really go for that one from what I understand so the next one came out looking like the second gen model with the click-wheel...which people liked better I assume. Steve Jobs had said in the past that mistakes will be made...Apple has never been infallible...even he knew that. Usually they learn from their mistakes and move on. Microsoft on the other hand, never seems to learn from its failures. It just comes out with something else that has no thought put into it and then lobs millions of ad bucks into it...only to watch it fester away as a footnote in the history of that particular market.
Will the Surface be good? Will it flounder? Will it do ok? Who knows. Wait and see. Until then don't give this thing any credit as doing anything against any currently released product. It isn't doing anything against them yet. Wait and see. Please god, wait and see.
I get your point, but at the same time can't help but think of my opinion with Apple products between being announced and anyone actually being able to touch them. Between the original iPhone being demonstrated and anyone actually getting one to play with I had a good opinion of the device.
All we're really waiting on with this thing is how good the keyboard is to type on. But in my experiance with keyboards is you generally get used to them. There was a time when people may have questioned the iPad keyboard giving zero feedback, but I can type on it perfectly fine.
i can say i use them both fairly equally with the macs a bit more.
while i think both version of the surface has it's strengths...they both have equally high weakness which imho might not make it a success...
1. the ARM version: while the notion that it's going to run "Apps" only, the downside is that the "Apps" library is not going to be as extensive as the other platforms out there which means it's going to be tough to have developer's want to develop for it since the target audience is low.
2. the Pro version: while it's great that it can run full windows and windows applications to all it's glory... we might see performance issues and since most of these applications are not designed for multitouch, the form factor of the device will require the use of the keyboard, mouse, stylus, blah blah blah...which begs the question....why not just get an ultrabook?
Quote:
Originally Posted by timgriff84
I would ask which one you use more? All devices degrade and from my experiance I wouldnt say there was much difference between Apple and Microsoft. I also question how much is down to the hardware rather than the OS. For instance my iBook G4 and iMac G5 degraded much faster than my intel based macs. Particularly the iMac G5 degraded faster than any machine I've ever owned. My iPhone 3G also degraded a lot faster than my HTC HD7, could be the OS but could also be hardware improving over years.
End of the day the Surface is going to degrade. But it could be less as if you use Metro apps more than traditional Windows app there going to be a lot more restrictive in messing up your machine.
I get your point, but at the same time can't help but think of my opinion with Apple products between being announced and anyone actually being able to touch them. Between the original iPhone being demonstrated and anyone actually getting one to play with I had a good opinion of the device.
All we're really waiting on with this thing is how good the keyboard is to type on. But in my experiance with keyboards is you generally get used to them. There was a time when people may have questioned the iPad keyboard giving zero feedback, but I can type on it perfectly fine.
I used them both fairly equally...with a tendency a bit more on the mac side.
Pro version I agree is going to have battery issues running legacy apps. Apps running in full screen is what allows the os to do some tricks to save power and that's not going to be possible in desktop mode. Still there is the benefit over an ultra book that you can get rid of the keyboard when your on a train or the sofa and you just want to use it as a tablet.
It amazes me how shortsighted some of the criticism is.
"You don't have to make a compromise, you can have everything you like about a tablet and everything you like about a PC all in one device. And so that should change the way people look at things."
Surface is trying to marry the tablet experience with the PC experience. It may be too soon and it might very well fail. But I think one would have to be shortsighted not to believe that Apple will be going to that same place eventually. If surface is successful it will just speed up the process.
At some point iOS and OSX are going to merge or one will replace the other (likely iOS getting further developed to the point where it's suitable for everyone's computing needs) and Apple will have a device that has no compromises in that there won't be anything you can't do on the tablet form factor that can do on the pc form factor.
Competetion is good and I really hope Surface is successful because if it is, the speed of innovation on the Apple side will be forced to remain high unlike if none of the other tablets take off and Apple is able to coast.
I've been using Macs since they were called NeXT, and I exclusively use Macs because Windoze blows.
That said, despite of what all the fanboys say, technology trickles down. Your iPhone runs a former mainframe timesharing OS called UNIX, you just don't know it. Your MacBook Air runs a former workstation OS that used to be called NeXTSTEP. Convergence is the rule, not the exception in the tech world, and from that point of view, Gates as more than just a small point.
The reason why iOS is dumbed down, is because current CPUs/battery tech doesn't allow for the experience we want in a tablet, without sacrificing something. For a desktop-level OS to run properly, you need anywhere between 4-16GB of RAM, depending on what you do, which is a multiple of what any iOS device has right now. It also requires paging, which would be an issue for battery life and cheap affordable flash storage, so more expensive SSD-type flash memory would have to be used, which would push an iPad quickly into the MacBook Air price range.
That however doesn't mean, that we really need or want two different devices. What we need is a single OS that can switch UI personality. Imagine a case that looks like an MacBook Air: with the keyboard in use, you have a Mac OS X user interface, you fold the screen over, or detach it, and you have a touch tablet with an UI like on an iPad.
The underlying OS in iOS and OS X is essentially the same, just the GUI layer is different. Nothing prevents "universal apps" that not only adapt between iPhone and iPad form factors and UI layout, but can change their appearance and UI style based on what mode a device is in beyond that, and adapt to a desktop app.
Give it a few more years, your iPhone snaps in a docking station with a thunderbolt connector, and on your 27" CinemaDisplay, you'll be running OS X with universal apps. No need to buy an iOS version pf Pages and an OS X version of Pages, you'll have a copy of Pages that will adapt to your current working style: phone, tablet, desktop.
Similarly, pen computing isn't dead. While Jobs was right that a finger is one of the best pointing devices, a finger is a horrible drawing and writing device. Sooner or later we'll want to precisely draw things on a screen, and despite dictation, we'll want handwriting recognition. On screen touch-keyboard is better than lousy handwriting recognition, but I'd take good handwriting recognition over a screen keyboard any day, and certainly I wouldn't want to sit in an airplane or office, where everyone tries to dictate to their computer.
Video Telephony and Voice Recognition have one thing in common: they sound sexy, but have limited use. Who wants to pick up a Facetime call while in the bathroom, lounging around in bed half naked, etc.? A phone call, you can accept in just about any situation, because people don't see what state you're in or what you're doing. Voice recognition is useless as soon as you have multiple people in a room, because it's a nuisance to have to listen to everyone interact with their machines, and because sensitive data becomes very audible. So this stuff demos well, but is not very practical in most situations.
So the problem with Microsoft's complementary approach isn't that it's fundamentally wrong, but that it's premature, because battery life/form factor will disappoint (leaving the factor called "Windows" out of the picture for the moment, because any Apple device that would be "Surface" like wouldn't run Windows anyway...)
Sooner or later, if Apple isn't brain dead, iOS will add support for some sort of pen input for drawing and writing, while retaining a touch capable interface for most things.
Sooner or later, iOS and OS X will converge, unless Apple tries to milk the market for too long by making people buy two devices where one would suffice (but that would open a door for competitors who get it).
But the time isn't now. We need another leap in power efficiency, we'd need to have an iPad sized device with a multi-core 64-bit ARM chip with a MMU, and SSD-grade flash memory, a 10h battery life, and a form factor not significantly exceeding that of the current iPad.
About the keyboard cover: It's great, but Apple doesn't have to do it, because there are at least half a dozen companies offering such covers for the iPad right now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luca
Wow, I can't believe how shortsighted some of you Apple fanboys are. Maybe post some reasonable critiques or responses instead of just calling Bill Gates a "moron." It makes you look stupid and childish.
Maybe you're right, Apple should keep the iPad exactly the same and never change anything. After all, it worked out great with the iPhone. The original iPhone, which had no third party apps and relied on "web apps" accessed through the browser to do anything that couldn't be done through the built-in apps... that was a great idea that completely took off, proving that Apple always knows best. Oh wait.
Apple is not perfect or infallible. Constantly innovating and improving their own products is what has made them popular and powerful. I am dumbfounded that their own fans think Apple should do a 180 and start doing the opposite of what they have been doing - just twiddle their thumbs and never change anything.
This is not to say that the Microsoft Surface is superior to the iPad, or even a good product in the first place. That remains to be seen. But the point is, the Surface is doing something no iPad-era tablet has done before - it's moving up market and attempting to serve as a replacement for a computer, rather than a companion to one. Again, we don't know how good it is, but it is trying things the iPad has not tried yet. Even if it's not a great product on its own (and I will emphasize we don't know if it'll be good or not since it hasn't been released yet), it could introduce some features that Apple may want to emulate in the next iPad.
Short sighted? Did you read post 114? The premise of my argument is that Microsoft doesn't have a suitable marketing strategy. MS sells its wares through Dell, HP, and Acer. I assume none of them will sell the Surface. So where is MS going to sell this thing? If MS sells to retailers like Best Buy, it will be targeting a consumer market, yet the most attractive feature of the device is that it runs full versions of MS Office and has a powerful processor (i.e., features that enterprise users want). What's your response?
Also, there were many posts about how a soft keyboard doesn't work unless you have a hard surface like a table. What's your response to that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jgibson24
At some point iOS and OSX are going to merge or one will replace the other (likely iOS getting further developed to the point where it's suitable for everyone's computing needs) and Apple will have a device that has no compromises in that there won't be anything you can't do on the tablet form factor that can do on the pc form factor.
I fully agree, but it's worth pointing out that iOS and OS X are the same OS already. It's only the GUI layer that's different, some kernel tuning parameters are different, and the code is compiled for a different CPU type. But underneath, the same Mach-BSD-UNIX is there, CoreFoundation is there, etc. What's missing is the shell level, but if your iOS device is jailbroken, you can install that quickly.
Basically, iOS is OS X light, with the different GUI layer, and with all of the backwards compatibility crap thrown out. By the time iOS "grows up" it's going to be identical to OS X.
The idea that we're dealing with two separate operating systems is not right.
To make the point: this is what iOS 5.1.1 reports:
Quote:
Darwin localhost 11.0.0 Darwin Kernel Version 11.0.0: Sun Apr 8 21:51:26 PDT 2012; root:xnu-1878.11.10~1/RELEASE_ARM_S5L8930X iPhone3,1 arm N90AP Darwin
And this is what Mac OS X 10.7.4 reports:
Quote:
Darwin localhost 11.4.0 Darwin Kernel Version 11.4.0: Mon Apr 9 19:32:15 PDT 2012; root:xnu-1699.26.8~1/RELEASE_X86_64 x86_64
Same code base, different version. Mac OS X 10.7.0 was Darwin 11.0.0, so iOS 5 uses the same base as Mac OS X 10.7.
OS X 10.8 will use Darwin 12.x.x and likely that's what iOS 6 will use, too.
The two systems progress in lock-step until the point where they are unified.