San Francisco to cease Mac purchases without EPEAT certification

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  • Reply 181 of 195
    docno42docno42 Posts: 3,326member
    On my 2007 MPB I've bought three new batteries, the third from an alternate supplier as Apple doesn't make them anymore.  I have upgraded my hard drive twice - 250GB to 500GB to 750GB.  I upgraded the RAM to the maximum, and I had the display fixed under Applecare.

    The only thing you can't do to the new Retina MacBook Pro is the RAM. Everything else is just as changeable as your existing MBP. Granted, I'm taking liberty with the batteries - but there is precident as there are replacement batteries for the iPad - if the Retina MacBook Pro is the least bit successful and ships in any volume, the aftermarket will rise to the challenge.
    My machine runs fast and well, and my goal is to get 8 years out of it.

    And? The new "sealed" machine will self destruct after 4 years? I don't follow your logic.
    As for OWC having SSD upgrades, I didn't know that.  The Apple website says specifically to buy the largest SSD that you need as it is NOT upgradeable.  The SSD interface IS proprietary, which will prevent installation of a standard interface SSD and thus limit my choice.

    Apple hasn't promoted RAM upgrades in their notebooks, especially their recent ones, yet it's common knowledge that you could get third party upgrades. I think people are failing to note that there ARE third party SSD alternatives because they want to believe the hype and have something to complain about. And yes, the memory is not upgradeable - but again, there are lots of things in previous generation laptops that weren't either - graphics configurations, CPU types - and yet people have always weighed the purchase cost vs. the long term benefits. I fail to see how this is different, other than something that hasn't been an up front decision before. Memory slots and connectors take up space - critical space for these new designs.

    As far as limiting choice - whatever. You can't have it all ways. Life is ALWAYS about compromises. If the compromises Apple chose to make in order to make the Retina MBP or Air aren't your cup of tea then don't buy it. But for some, like me, the compromises are no big deal because the result is far more important than what was changed.

    Ironically in arguing for "choice" your arguing really for less choice because you don't want to accept anything for anyone that doesn't fit your narrow parameters of what is acceptable. The Air and Retina MBP are exciting to me because they are very different in compelling and exciting ways. What PC vendor would have the balls to create such a design and the withstand the withering criticism of folks such as yourself?

    Not many. Microsoft knows this - it's why they felt forced to create the Surface.

    So even though you personally don't care for the memory and batteries, you should still appreciate the bigger picture in that with their being willing to deviate from the "norm" Apple is creating MORE choice, not less. Without the MacBook Pro and MacBook Air, we'd all be running around with ugly, bulky plastic laptops that look like they are from the 90's still.

     
    It looks to me as if OWC is building their own SSD with Apple's proprietary interface.

    Funny - Windows ultrabooks are starting to sport similar form factor drives. Whether the electrical interface and connector is the same as Apple's isn't something I have looked into deeply since I frankly don't care as I have no interest in a pretender when I can get the real thing - and still run Windows on it if I feel compelled to. As long as I have at least one alternative source for my Mac, the advantages of the form factor far outweigh the potential concerns - at least for me. Windows manufacturers are probably going down the same path as Apple in being "non standard" because in ultra-slim and lightweight notebooks, every cubic centimeter and fraction of an ounce matters. Yes - your choice is limited for now. But just like when the iMac first sported USB instead of ADB and dropped the floppy drive and it was the "end of the world", in the long run life moved on and those objections now seem ridiculous. I think the same will apply here.
    I still think the battery glue issue is a problem, since there is a wire underneath the glued battery that could easily be damaged on removal.  

    Pay someone to swap it for you. You either appreciate the compromises to produce the form factor or you don't. If it's a big stumbling block, then get a more traditionally constructed machine like the regular MacBook Pro.

    But just because you have a problem with the construction of the Retina MBP doesn't mean it has no value for anyone. I also can understand, to a point, some of your concerns - but I think if you look back to previous shifts in technology or trends such as USB with the original iMac, there is a very, very high probability that all of your issues will turn to out to be complete non-starters. I certainly feel they are dramatically being overblown. Especially disingenuous is the sensationalization of these "issues" by iFixIt. It's not like they have a vested interest and are a disinterested third party :P
  • Reply 182 of 195
    docno42docno42 Posts: 3,326member
    I wish school districts would adopt this certification.

    Why?
    Why should our tax dollars be used to support products/companies that are not environmentally friendly?

    How is Apple dropping their listing with the EPEAT registry changing their fundamental environmental stance?

    I'm curious - what does EPEAT mean to you? What exactly is being listed on the EPEAT registry (which, BTW, is a private company for whom you have to pay to be listed) that you think is so special?

    I'm really trying to understand what you think has changed in Apple's environmental position by simply dropping participation from a third party for-profit organizations registry, and what gain you think your "tax dollars" are going to magically get by only supporting products that are on the registry?
    Apple is just trying to eke a few more pennies out of each product.

    What the heck does that have to do with anything? Are we still pretending to be shocked that publicly traded companies like Apple are ultimately in business (hello, key word?) to make a profit?

    Are we still sticking to the naive and overly idealistic notion that profit is evil? Ugh...
  • Reply 183 of 195
    docno42docno42 Posts: 3,326member
    solipsismx wrote: »
    3) Frankly it's unbelievable that someone on this forum in 2012 is complaining about being blindsided about how the iPad manages files.

    Some people just want to have something to complain about.

    What really galls me with people like him that make the arguments he's making is he's really agitating to restrict everyone's choice when his ultimate choice is to just not buy the machines that don't meet his needs instead of complaining about how these machines aren't like everyone else's.
  • Reply 184 of 195
    jeffdmjeffdm Posts: 12,949member
    jeffdm wrote: »
    You're right, that's dangerous, but I don't think you saw my comment. I think you could heat from behind the metal, not the battery side of the bond.
    hungover wrote: »
     The following has already been mentioned never-the-less it is worth repeating- heating batteries with a heat gun is not a good idea.

    Yes, as I've said that at least once.
  • Reply 185 of 195
    flaneur wrote: »
    Except when they could get naked together. They did a lot of that.
    The hot tub was invented just north of San Francisco, by the way.
    They wouldn't be able to get a patent on that because of prior art by the ancient Romans - both device (hot tub) and the new application (communal naked bathing).
  • Reply 186 of 195
    Go ahead with your heated paint scraper.  I'll bet you wouldn't like to get a job scraping such batteries off with a heated blade for a few years.  See how you like placing a heated object near a lithium cells filled with lots of fun toxic volatile chemicals day in and day out.  Take a nice deep breath.  Mmmmmm...cancer.
    Not arguing, just want to know is there a heated paint scraper? I know a heat gun might be used to assist in softening paint before it is mechanically scraped, but I assumed here a powered paint scraper would be of the type with a vibrating/oscillating blade.
  • Reply 187 of 195
    jragostajragosta Posts: 10,473member
    bloodycelt wrote: »
    History shows that history is perhaps the most useless subject since we are doomed to repeat it, all the knowledge does is let you see the freight train at the end of the tunnel, not like you can do anything about it.

    But lets use history to "forecast":
       - Apple has been focusing on its target market which is becoming more and more: upper class teenagers. As the global economy continues to degenerate, the "professional" class which are the buyers of their pro machines will shrink since they will have less people able to pay them for service. In five years or so, they will only have iOS devices, in ten years they will become like Nokia, the Android market will have beaten them, and they will release their first Android Device. 
       - A more accurate prediction is as time approaches infinity, everything disintegrates, proving that all is meaningless.

    Considering how most people just toss their old computers into the trash bin, EPEAT is meaningless, people are too selfish and lazy to recycle. The only surprise is I thought their current market was "Prosumers" who need to feel "special" when they want to show off to people that they are "writing" in the Starbucks. The lack of EPEAT must be a blow to their superiority complex.

    While Apple can't force people to recycle, they offer significant rebates for customers who bring in old equipment. How many other computer companies do that? Perhaps that's why Apple's actual recycling rate is twice the industry average?

    So what makes more sense - to reward Apple for actually recycling twice as many computers as the industry average or punish them for having a special screw that requires a $2 screwdriver to remove?

    Not arguing, just want to know is there a heated paint scraper? I know a heat gun might be used to assist in softening paint before it is mechanically scraped, but I assumed here a powered paint scraper would be of the type with a vibrating/oscillating blade.

    That's what I'm thinking. No need to heat the battery at all.
  • Reply 188 of 195
    flaneurflaneur Posts: 4,519member
    They wouldn't be able to get a patent on that because of prior art by the ancient Romans - both device (hot tub) and the new application (communal naked bathing).

    Hah! Yes but the poor Puritanical ancestors to the Americans forgot about such sensual pleasures for several hundred years, didn't they? Then, in the early 50's pleasure itself was rediscovered thanks to liberated souls like Allen Ginsberg and Aldous Huxley, who revived the ancient sacraments like lysergic acid, mescaline and psilocybin. Alan Watts's pals in the woods of Marin County were the first known humans to use big second-hand wooden vats for mixed bathing. Excessive merriment ensued, which had to be supressed again by the authorities.

    Back to the topic, ecological thinking was much accelerated by such practices.
  • Reply 189 of 195
    flaneur wrote: »
    Hah! Yes but the poor Puritanical ancestors to the Americans forgot about such sensual pleasures for several hundred years, didn't they? Then, in the early 50's pleasure itself was rediscovered thanks to liberated souls like Allen Ginsberg and Aldous Huxley, who revived the ancient sacraments like lysergic acid, mescaline and psilocybin. Alan Watts's pals in the woods of Marin County were the first known humans to use big second-hand wooden vats for mixed bathing. Excessive merriment ensued, which had to be supressed again by the authorities.
    Back to the topic, ecological thinking was much accelerated by such practices.
    Sure, when I'm naked with a woman in a hot tub I'm thinking ecologically - I'm saving water! And the naked woman better be my wife or I'll have her carbon footprint on my arse!
  • Reply 190 of 195
    hirohiro Posts: 2,663member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Pooch View Post




    i live in san francisco.  please enlighten me as to how i am sick?  or any of my friends for that matter? 


     


    and [only a] nobody calls it 'san fran'.



     


    Read for comprehension.  


     


    And yes, lots of people all over the world call it san fran.  Including more than a few of us in the Bay area.

  • Reply 191 of 195
    hungoverhungover Posts: 603member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post





    Yes, as I've said that at least once.


     Hi Jeff, thanks for clarifying your point about heating the metal rather than the battery.


     


    Whilst I have used hundreds of hot melt glue sticks I have never tried to soften the glue retrospectively. I would guess that the metal back would act as a big heat sync, whilst initially it would reduce the direct heat transfer to the battery, it will also require the use of greater heat, resulting in the release of vapours from both the aluminum and the glue. I have no idea what the OEL levels would be and it goes without saying that the Apple staff performing this task would be adequately protected (if necessary).


     


    With regard to using oscillating saw blades, one potential problem to overcome would be the "gumming" up of the glue on the teeth and scratching of the back plate or cutting of the trackpad wire. Mind you, Apple may have factored in the cost of having to replace the whole back panel .(which can then be recycled) when replacing batteries.


     


    From looking at the fixit pictures I can see no compelling reason why an alternative to glue could not have been found and thus assume that Apple just don't want owners to be able to replace the batteries, fair enough, it's their baby to decide to do with as they wish. Perhaps it is hoped that any losses in sales to govt (etc) will be offset by an increase in customers paying for AppleCare (which I would imagine is far more profitable than the sale of the hardware in the first place)

  • Reply 192 of 195

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by catchblue22 View Post


     


    Whoa, logically challenged much?  Let me restate my argument.  I have problems with the RMBP because its design moves in a direction that I don't like.  Its design philosophy shows symptoms artificial limitation of capabilities, especially in regards to updatability of the SSD and replacement of expired batteries.  I don't care if Apple deigns to provide a battery replacement service for a fee; if they are the only practical alternative for battery replacement, that means they can cease this service at their whim.  Apple currently does not sell battery replacements for my 2007 MBP, but I was able to use another supplier recently.  I don't want Apple to be able to place artificial limitations on the lifetime of my premium professional laptop that I paid a premium price for.  Such behavior is typical of the MBA management style, something that usually causes us consumers to pay more for less. Oh, and the leader of Apple happens to be an MBA.



     


     


    I agree with you and I also disagree with you -- I think the issue is more complicated than that. Apple had to build the display the way they did to reduce weight and thickness -- and as a result of the thin-ness it is also brighter and holds less heat.


     


    The other HUGE issue here is complexity. People don't complain that a CPU has a math co-processor, L1 cache, and other specialized sub-routines embedded in it. But if you went back 50 years and wanted to do all these functions -- you'd have a room full of devices all sharing parts of the task.


     


    Apple is merely shortening the gap between common processes of a computer -- eventually, the memory, GPU and CPU might be on the same silicon wafer (INTEL has already done some of this on low-power units). All computers of a certain type have very similar needs for other devices as well -- so why not make a CHIP that handles all that?


     


    You might as well complain that Motherboards have all these circuits soldered down and we can't upgrade a resistor,... I know, that's PUSHING the extreme here; we'd all LIKE to be able to upgrade memory and hard drives -- but Apple has recognized that they can't get the weight, size and power requirements down to the lowest level possible AND maintain a certain level of stability without getting rid of redundant packaging.


     


    And as far as memory, the future CPUs will probably have a 3 dimensional lattice of it around the chip itself, with cooling built in somewhat like a blood/circulatory system. Chips will be tightly coupled with a designed amount of memory and more memory would mean another CPU because of the speed and bandwidth requirements.


     


    What is or isn't on the motherboard, or CPU is determined by complexity, the market, and what can be safely combined while allowing for future models. Custom FAB abilities are allowing for more and more components to share the same logic board.


     


    Likely, other companies are going to follow what Apple is doing here and the 2nd tier companies will create upgradeable boxes but be part of the low-profit margin arena.

  • Reply 193 of 195

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Flaneur View Post





    Hah! Yes but the poor Puritanical ancestors to the Americans forgot about such sensual pleasures for several hundred years, didn't they? Then, in the early 50's pleasure itself was rediscovered thanks to liberated souls like Allen Ginsberg and Aldous Huxley, who revived the ancient sacraments like lysergic acid, mescaline and psilocybin. Alan Watts's pals in the woods of Marin County were the first known humans to use big second-hand wooden vats for mixed bathing. Excessive merriment ensued, which had to be supressed again by the authorities.

    Back to the topic, ecological thinking was much accelerated by such practices.


     


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jragosta View Post





    While Apple can't force people to recycle, they offer significant rebates for customers who bring in old equipment. How many other computer companies do that? Perhaps that's why Apple's actual recycling rate is twice the industry average?

    So what makes more sense - to reward Apple for actually recycling twice as many computers as the industry average or punish them for having a special screw that requires a $2 screwdriver to remove?

    That's what I'm thinking. No need to heat the battery at all.


     


    It's thoughtful gems like these that occasionally bubble up on a blog that make the whole process worthwhile. I hadn't thought about the connection with sex and drugs and environmentalism like this -- but it makes sense. People out of touch and resigned to the idea that "our experience must be THIS and our power must be given up to authoritarians who tell us what to think" is part and parcel of every group that does war on humans and exploits the environments they live in. The only thing that has mitigated the power of authoritarian cults is that they are all inevitably cannibalistic as soon as they can no longer exploit and devour others. If the Romans had invented trains, their empire might have grown and lasted another few hundred years to the detriment of all -- especially since they were the Holy Roman Empire when they began their self immolation.

  • Reply 194 of 195
    goodgriefgoodgrief Posts: 137member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by JerrySwitched26 View Post


     


     


    Just like it has as to the relative merits of Windows and OSX?


     


    C'mon.



    Let's see:


     


    1) Palm OS is already a historical footnote, iOS is generating money hand over fist and has the kind of traction that Palm never even dreamed of having.


    2) Windows PC penetration is slipping (especially consumer* market share), with OSX eating it's lunch.


     


    So ... yes.


     


    And frankly, as a software developer who targeted Palm OS for several years, though several major versions of the OS (2.x-5.x), and across a plethora of hardware models, I want to point out that a contributing reason to the failure of a product like the Palm OS is what I'll call it's "supportability", even when technology itself is actually sound.


     


    The 'haters' want to bash Apple for controlling the iOS experience so tightly, and limiting the number of product variations out there at one one time, but the problem I've seen from the software production side is that too many configurations to have to worry about targeting and supporting kills the viability for software providers. This is especially true when you throw in the hardware vendors that were allowed to slip in their proprietary OS extensions for special hardware (w.r.t. Palm OS, Sony CLIE "high-resolution" screens are the first thing that come to mind -  that was a pain to have to worry about in an app that you were writing high-performance graphics blitters for). Does sound familiar to anyone? ... I'll give you a hint: "Android".


     


    From the consumer side, <most> users aren't that savvy, and <most> don't want to 'tweak' their gadgets anymore than they want to 'tweak' the engines in their cars. Sure, there are always tinkerers, but the lion's share of consumers <want> the comfort of a uniform and predictable experience so they know what to expect. For the average user, they can get downright angry when things even <look> a little different, never mind actually functioning in a different way. For years I've been dealing with the user response that comes from updating software - users will swear this new version is "broken" and doesn't work the same and they want it back the way it used to be, because it worked better then - and that's just when you update graphics/appearance or reskin something without making functional changes. It makes supporting (on the consumer side) a product incredibly resource intensive when you have too many choices for users to make, especially when you're dealing with products that consumers view as 'appliances' and are expected to not have a steep learning curve. Consumers will blame "broken" products when they can't figure something out with devices that aren't supposed to require some arcane knowledge to operate (like those complicated computers you have to program to make them work and that have their own languages and everything ;) - although even that perception is shifting, and even PC's are becoming viewed as appliances now). Things like telephones or the digital equivalent of an address book are definitely 'appliances', and if Bob Nosepicker can't make it work the way he expected, then it can't possibly be because he's dumb or uninformed, it's because the product is "broken" - which brings us to the support headaches and/or product returns. Customer support isn't free, it's pretty expensive to do it right actually. And if a product is too often seen as 'broken' (whether it actually is or not, whether it's user error or not - it's still "broken") it makes it harder to sell. All that can make it not worth the investment to sell in the first place.


     


    *consumer: "Personal computers" that Joe User buys, not the 349$ stripped-down, disposable Dell special 'workstation' that the accounting department buys in lots of 100 to serve as not-so-glorified typewriters and/or calculators and has a maximum expected lifetime of 18 months before they trash-bin it for the next disposable model.

  • Reply 195 of 195
    sr2012sr2012 Posts: 896member
    Hopefully this will help the transition to iPad, because I can bet my bottom dollar there'll be a lot of SF officials that can't live without Apple products.

    For conspiracy theorists, this could have been the plan all along. Because, bless the USA, the loophole of EPEAT is that phones and tablets, as I am informed, do not have to be EPEAT certified.
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