Apple defends decision to withdraw from EPEAT certification

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  • Reply 81 of 135
    I came here looking for 70-something insights into Apple's motivation for removing their existing products from EPEAT consideration. I found 50 comments about whether $599 is "cheap" or not. This is Engadget-grade shit, seriously.
  • Reply 82 of 135
    charlitunacharlituna Posts: 7,217member
    freshmaker wrote: »
    I can understand withdrawing future models from EPEAT certification, but why would Apple withdraw all of the computers that had already passed?  .

    To avoid confusion by having half their stuff on the list and half not. And for all we know they have the numbers to back up that those groups that are mandated to only by EPEAT weren't buying the qualifying stuff anyway, at least not in mega numbers compared to the other side. Especially when iOS devices are exempt and many companies are moving that way.
  • Reply 83 of 135
    tbelltbell Posts: 3,146member


    When an issue like this came up under Jobs, he'd take a few days and post a well reasoned response. This PR statement doesn't answer the question of why Apple withdrew. It tries to diffuse the matter by saying Apple exceeds others recycling efforts in some regards, but doesn't acknowledge that it has back tracked in others. The reality is that an important part of the standard, which Apple helped create, makes repair-ability an important requirement. By gluing memory, the display, and the battery to the case this undermines repair-ability. If Apple disagrees it should explain why its products aren't any less environmentally friendly.

  • Reply 84 of 135

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by igxqrrl View Post


    And the true believers will swallow this statement from Apple's PR department. Hook, line, and sinker.



    There may be others issues involved with EPEAT and Apple, but most of us, even the Apple haters should recognize that easy repair and disassembly is a questionable standard. At least in the US. 


     


    I used to repair and recycle all sorts of devices many years ago, not as any expert, but as just a normal guy with some knowledge and the ability to follow directions. Did a vacuum tube our TV fail? Okay, identify the tube and do down to the local TV repair store and buy a replacement, and when local radio/tv repair shops started to disappear, Radio Shack had what I needed. I could and did build my own radios back then. Same with my audio amps. I used to be able to repair the engine of my car. Can't do that now. Tools too expensive. Now, what happened to the carburetor? I used to rebuild those. I can't anymore -- they don't exist in the cars I now own. 


     


    Okay, I can still replace the batteries in my watch, and if I put the effort in, replace the wristband too. Kiss off the TV now, the radio, dvd player, blue ray player. I used to be able to put in new chips on computer mother boards, add a GPU chip, or floating point chip in my old computers in the late 70's and 80's and even into the 90's. No problem replacing power supply. Did that too often -- once every couple of years. What a new case to put the mother boards in -- no problem. Even the PROM was replaceable (before they could be updated remotely). 


     


    If case you haven't noticed, there is afoot recycling and reuse specialities now. It's not safe nor environmentally sound to flush expired drugs down the sink or toilet. It gets into the environment and is pernicious. There are drug drop off points, and we expect those involved will have the knowledge and expertise to dispose of these items responsibly. Fluorescent and CFL and halogen bulbs contain toxic substances. It is the responsible thing to do to take to a special drop off point. They charge you in many cases.


     


    Thirty to forty years ago, when PC's and mini-computers were rare and the technology design was in its infancy, only the relatively few of us had the knowledge and temerity to own and repair these devices. These devices were not as massed produced as they are today, and not sold to nor affordable by most. Nor were they as reliable. A reasonable argument can be made that ease of repair and replacement is inversely correlated with reliability and quality. 

  • Reply 85 of 135
    apple ][apple ][ Posts: 9,233member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post





    I would have expected that your reaction would be civil disobedience, you're letting government tell you what to do with your money.

    To be honest, it seems like all the time around here. You strike me as a highly opinionated and likely hostile person.


     


    I don't follow or agree with all laws, but when it comes to panhandlers and beggars, I do happen to agree that it's a bad idea and counterproductive to give those types any sort of money at all.


     


    As for your second comment, I seem to catch more flack here than ten Fandroids combined! So, I always have to be on the defensive.

  • Reply 86 of 135

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by charlituna View Post







    Also, what about everyone else. Where are the demands to know every last detail about Dell, HP, Microsoft and whether they fit to any standards much less a particular one.


     


     


    Only Apple is victimized.  That has been a meme in the Apple world forever.  Steve started it with the 1984 commercial, ran with it, and developed it.


     


    Us against the world, we Think Different.  An oppressed minority fighting for what is good and right against the forces of darkness.

  • Reply 87 of 135
    aaarrrggghaaarrrgggh Posts: 1,608member

    Not so fast.

    This point is not the same as iFixit. They demand repairability. I say it's a nice to have, but the showstopper is recyclability. I see no evidence from Apple that the retina MacBook Pro can be economically recycled. Apple says it recycles and "responsibly disposes", but these are two very different things.

    The mantra is reduce, reuse, recycle. The Prioriies should be in that order. Repairing fits into the second category, and is a valid priority. What Apple's strategy focuses on now appears to prioritize reducing material use, and then splitting the product into a split reuse/recycle stream.

    Apple's solution is better than taking your household electronics to the toxic materials disposal drop-off, if you know it exists or if you trust it. (what do you do with a HDD when you can't remove it and destroy it?)

    That complicates using a simple catch phrase.
  • Reply 88 of 135
    agramonteagramonte Posts: 345member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by LizSandford View Post



    This statement by Apple is just PR spin. It provides no inisight and only indicates that Apple feels its already doing enough.

    But the sheep won't care.

    I hope the education market takes note of this change and further abandons Apple.


    exactly - this statement is simple nonsense. Some will regurgitate this stupidity in some misguided sense of loyalty (or lack of critical thinking skills) but most will see it for what it is - spin.


     


    just another sign of the dumbing down of Apple.

  • Reply 89 of 135
    flaneurflaneur Posts: 4,526member
    I thought you were above mindless trolling with directly-spoken lies, Zazzles.
    You embarrass yourself and you embarrass all your past lives.

    Well thanks for pointing out the connection. He had me until now. Even obliquely agreed with me yesterday. That of course really fooled me.

    We are plagued by professional pests here. ConradJoe's old accusation that Apple II is here to give Apple fans a redneck, barbarian dimension is nowhere more evident than in this thread. And ConradJoe is now JerrySwitched.
  • Reply 90 of 135

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by TheMacadvocate View Post



    I came here looking for 70-something insights into Apple's motivation for removing their existing products from EPEAT consideration. I found 50 comments about whether $599 is "cheap" or not. This is Engadget-grade shit, seriously.


     


    What insights are you seeking? EPEAT has a paper measure of recyclability. Apple decided that it should not be measured by those standards, but that it still cares about the environment. Its reasons are probably due to the demands of their changing manufacturing process (for example, using glue instead of screws). There really isn't much more to it than that.

  • Reply 91 of 135
    gazoobeegazoobee Posts: 3,754member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post


    This is an Apple forum, I come here to comment on Apple news. I don't really care about people who have other nefarious motives, such as environmentalists. Apple is in the business of making great computers, awesome devices and generating money. If somebody cares so much about people who can't afford a Mac that costs $599, then they should go and visit a welfare forum instead, where they can speak with likeminded people, in my humble opinion.


     


    I don't think that anybody should criticize my comment where I state that $599 for a Mac Mini is cheap. And along comes these ridiculous people with stories about how the majority of the world's population doesn't even make that? So what? lol.......That's completely off topic and a diversion from what matters. 



     


    At first, I couldn't see why people are taking you to task for saying a $599 computer is cheap.  This is a "first-world" forum and $599 *is* cheap in today's market.  


     


    Then I realised that it might have something to do with your attitude.  To me, most of the time you come across as the quintessential "Ugly American."  


     


    You're quite consistently reactionary, argumentative, negative, and highly aggressive.  The fact that you have such an old-fashioned view of the world and are constantly insulting large groups of people who's only real fault is that they aren't like you, doesn't help much either.  


     


    I think you should go to San Francisco, drop some acid, and hug a hippy or two.  Maybe burn an American flag once in a while to keep things in perspective.  Today's world isn't as bad as you think it is, and the old world wasn't as good as you remember either.  

  • Reply 92 of 135

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by lightknight View Post




    Don't hate Neanderthals. ;)



     


    I don't either. I feel sorry that they cannot defeat glue.


  • Reply 93 of 135
    apple ][apple ][ Posts: 9,233member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Flaneur View Post





    Well thanks for pointing out the connection. He had me until now. Even obliquely agreed with me yesterday. That of course really fooled me.

    We are plagued by professional pests here. ConradJoe's old accusation that Apple II is here to give Apple fans a redneck, barbarian dimension is nowhere more evident than in this thread. And ConradJoe is now JerrySwitched.


     


    Why yes, I'm an Android spy obviously. That should be fairly evident from my posts. I secretly love Android, and at the moment, I am rooting my phone and I'm posting from a laggy piece of crap.


     


    Anyway, as of tomorrow, I am pleased to announce that I'm out of here! 


     


    I am leaving the country, and there will be very limited internet access at the fairly remote place where I will be going for my summer vacation. Enjoy the Fandroids, trolls and other imposters while I am gone!


     


    But, I will eventually be back, where I will continue to tell it like I see it, much to the dismay and frustration of certain whiny people. I'll be gone for at least a month, so I'm giving ample warming. All whiners should put me on ignore.

  • Reply 94 of 135


    I can't believe I read through all this nonsense... haha!


     


    Trying to stay on topic, I'll start by saying that we get too hung up on these government rating systems that are flawed. Yesterday Apple was environmentally conscious, but now that they don't participate in EPEAT, today they are not. That doesn't make sense to me, but OK. Next, I love how people proclaim to us that "I will not buy unless...". Fine, don't. But please, advertise what you bought is it's place that was "better". Lastly, everyone seems concerned about government contracts and education. Governments are broke. I wonder how much money they really are going to spend on desktops and laptops.


     


    Oh, and one peeve of mine... Karma is not always bad... and wishing someone bad Karma is an acknowledgement that they have experienced good Karma (so they must be doing something right)... and in fact is a despicable thing to wish... and will probably just bring bad Karma to the wisher.


     


    Finally, the previous statement was exactly the type of nonsense I was talking about in my first statement. So pot, meet kettle hahaha... but I had to say it! LOL

     

  • Reply 95 of 135
    apple ][apple ][ Posts: 9,233member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by amador_o View Post


    and in fact is a despicable thing to wish... and will probably just bring bad Karma to the wisher.


     



     


    I don't really believe in karma, but I hope that you're right! People wishing me bad karma deserves to get hit by a falling piano when they are walking outside on the street later on today. Unfortunately, I'm not a witch or wizard, and I don't have any mythical powers.

  • Reply 96 of 135


    I actually DID TRY taking an old iMac in to the Apple store for recycling ... unfortunately they told me I had to mail it in.


     


    That's right, folks, your friendly neighborhood Apple store is for BUYING macs, EXCHANGING your white iPad for a black one (within the  first 14 days), GROKKING the new retina display and CHATTING with the employees but NOT for recycling.  You mail it in.  Apple mails you the mailer.  Very well thought through.


     


    However, I thought this was too much of a pain, so I took the iMac to Best Buy.  They take everything.  (Not sure how much that's going to go on, though)

  • Reply 97 of 135

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sflocal View Post




    Not so fast... you show me proof that that Apple is contributing to millions of pounds of aluminum being thrown away.  Until you have bonafide proof, you are simply blowing smoke in everyone's faces, hoping no one sees what you're trying to hide.  Apple has the best record for recycling their products.  Don't even try to spin the story to something that it isn't.  I mean honestly, if you're going to spread misinformation, at least make a decent effort to sound credible!



    iFixit's opinion and low rating of the new rMBP is just a childish rant from a company that makes its living selling repair tools and trying to get page-hits by showing visitors what's inside shiny, new products.  They are seeing their revenue stream dry up if Apple makes it difficult for them to stay in business.



    Apple has the highest rating in terms of service, product reliability, and customer service.  Most people will NEVER upgrade their RAM, hard drive, or battery when they purchase a notebook.  Apple knows this, and they have taken the next evolutionary step of designing their products with that in mind.  Solder the ram so the connections are more reliable.  Replace hard drives with SSD drives, maybe even solder the NAND chips on the board for extra reliability too.  Glue the battery in so that that it becomes more of a rigid structure for the entire chassis, making it more durable.  It makes perfect sense to me.



    To even imply the new Macbook Pro cannot be recyclable because some monkey can't use a flat spatula to peel the battery from the adhesive is sheer BS.



     


    I'm not blowing smoke because I said clearly that we don't know what Apple is doing. I make no claims. I point out that Apple should state clearly what they are doing and what their intent is. The burden of proof is on them.


     


    iFixit believes in reuse and repair. I think those are fine goals but I also understand that they are not always practical, especially for highly miniaturized devices. The recent iPhone fire involving a repair error shows that there are problems with the general ability to repair very small items.


     


    The new MacBook Pro contains less than a pound of aluminum. This is not a lot of money, less than a dollar. You need to recycle a lot of machines in an hour to pay even minimum wage plus expenses, logistics, and so on. The more work involved, the less economic sense to recycle. This is why recycling starts at the design stage.


     


    So the question: Apple is willing to lose money on its recycling operation, or do they do the lowest-cost thing and just dump the machine? Remember, Tim Cook is an operations guru who cuts costs everywhere possible, down to the cent.


     


    If Apple is willing to subsidize their recycling operation to compensate for their product design choices, so be it. I have no problem with that. But I don't know that this is the case. I want Apple to tell me. That's not blowing smoke. That's asking a reasonable question, and easy for them to answer since they know exactly what they are doing.

  • Reply 98 of 135

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by aaarrrgggh View Post





    The mantra is reduce, reuse, recycle. The Prioriies should be in that order. Repairing fits into the second category, and is a valid priority. What Apple's strategy focuses on now appears to prioritize reducing material use, and then splitting the product into a split reuse/recycle stream.

    Apple's solution is better than taking your household electronics to the toxic materials disposal drop-off, if you know it exists or if you trust it. (what do you do with a HDD when you can't remove it and destroy it?)

    That complicates using a simple catch phrase.


     


    That is the mantra, but mantras are just that. Reuse may not be practical when repair is needed. I keep my Apple gear running for years. My first gen iPhone till late last year, for example, and I replaced that only because it was stolen. It was working perfectly. However, had it not been working well, does repair of such a device make sense once it's a couple of years old? Not really, if the device can be recycled and the materials recovered. Consider that repair has its own footprint. Spare parts need manufacture, transportation, storage, etc. If products are durable and recyclable, you can give up reusability after a certain point.


     


    The problem is that Apple is vague about their recycling process.

  • Reply 99 of 135

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by TheMacadvocate View Post



    I came here looking for 70-something insights into Apple's motivation for removing their existing products from EPEAT consideration. I found 50 comments about whether $599 is "cheap" or not. This is Engadget-grade shit, seriously.


    +99


    Whats disappointing to me is that Apple even removed product that was already EPEAT gold!


    I believe, based upon specifications the Apple is doing an excellent job environmentally. Still - standards are standards, I work with one fortune 500 company that has a requirement like EPEAT in its quality documents, for purchasing IT parts. The standard means we don't have to specify in our buying guides every company and manufacturers that can be bought from.


    Clearly Apple wants to bring attention by excluding itself - esp parts that were already approved.


    Now what was it with the SF school board - since when do you announce a product or service you won't be buying - 


    just for the record - i will not be buying a Rolls Royce this year, or any lemon flavored ice cream.

  • Reply 100 of 135

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post


    This is an Apple forum, I come here to comment on Apple news. I don't really care about people who have other nefarious motives, such as environmentalists. Apple is in the business of making great computers, awesome devices and generating money. If somebody cares so much about people who can't afford a Mac that costs $599, then they should go and visit a welfare forum instead, where they can speak with likeminded people, in my humble opinion.


     


    I don't think that anybody should criticize my comment where I state that $599 for a Mac Mini is cheap. And along comes these ridiculous people with stories about how the majority of the world's population doesn't even make that? So what? lol.......That's completely off topic and a diversion from what matters. 



     


    But the issue is you do not comment on just Apple news, you start commenting on other people comments and make less thoughtful comments that also off topic, so stop ranting about us being off topic, because you started the diversion.

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