Ballmer was right all this time... no one would EVER spend that much on a Phone!! *rolls eyes*
Microsoft is basically fighting the last stand at the OK Corral. They are trying to prove to everyone that they are still relevant.
It is a post-PC area. I don't think PC's will ever really be gone. They certainly will be still used in the business world, however when consumers get home or are out and about with their lives, it will be mobile/consumer tech and that's where Microsoft is going to be buried 6-feet under.
Microsoft had so many shots and opportunities for decades. They flopped each time. How embarrassing.
Every time I find myself cutting Microsoft a little slack for working on something different and toning down the obnoxious rhetoric, one of their clown executives slithers out of the sewer to claim a false victory and bash Apple. Their ineptitude convinces me they're destined for failure, and their arrogance makes me eager to see them fail.
Microsoft: no vision, no leadership, no taste, no class.
It would all be so much convincing if Microsoft had actually shipped this product — and sold a ton. Then there might be something to back up their opinion.
"Apple makes great hardware," Turner said. "The reality is in the OS we see things differently. They've talked about it being the post-PC era, they talk about the tablet and PC being different, the reality in our world is that we think that's completely incorrect.
Well.. when your Surface sells 15 million each quarter then you make a claim that your approach the correct one.
Maybe Microsoft can explain why Windows Tablet PCs haven't been a mainstream hit since the early 1990s.
I used Windows tablets going all the way back to Windows 3.11 running on 386 tablets. They just put a new coat of paint on Windows and the Tablet PC and are trying to convince you it's now PC+?
If Apple got serious and produced a real Office Suite comparable to MS Office (iWork doesn't count) but lean, mean and full of features, Microsoft would be screwed.
If I was a Microsoft investor, I would be seriously concerned. Don't let MS turn into RIM.
Not so sure about that. The vast majority of people use productivity software in the office and the vast majority of offices using MS Office.
Apple's iWork suite, even if it attained feature parity with MS Office, has a drastically different user interface. Most would argue that it's better, but for the masses that use MS Office every day, it's difficult or impossible to justify the learning curve for a product suite that's not compatible with the document formats they use at work. Yes, I realize there's some level of compatibility. But anyone doing extensive editing on one platform will wind up needing to do a lot of cleanup work when exporting and importing to the other. Believe me, I've tried.
Incidentally nothing would make me happier than to see Microsoft follow RIM down the toilet bowl. They both deserve it. My sympathies are limited to any talented employees that get dragged down by the ineptitude of the companies' executives.
I would like to give Microsoft a benefit of the doubt, but they are really doing it wrong.
Apple phrased "post-PC" after iPad became a huge success. Microsoft, on the other hand, is using "PC+" before delivering results.
That's incorrect. Steve Jobs was talking about "post-PC" devices before the iPad and as far back as 2007. I remember he talked about "post-PC" during his interview in D5 conference with Bill Gates (available in iTunes by the way). I remember when he said it Walt asked him not to say "post-PC" because some people get upset when they hear the term and send him angry emails.
I do like Microsoft's incorporation of a PC based processor into their Surface which will run PC software and have usable USB ports. In my business, this is a better and more useful direction for a tablet, showing that the iPad is really just for games and internet access and not work. I see a place for both.
It's easy to yearn for full desktop power in a thin and light portable. But I would curb my enthusiasm until they have a shipping product and we have the opportunity to evaluate its performance against battery life, size/weight, reliability, cost and usability. Microsoft have been the Masters of Vaporware for 30 years.
Are traditional PCs not the same all purpose PCs? If so, then why obfuscate your point? if not, what's the difference? Seems to me you are assuming that if it's running Windows it's good and if it's not it's not good. You even solidify that comment by categorizing the iPad as being just for entertainment and falling back into the pejorative "toy" category.
an ipad has a lot less productivity than a PC currently has. And no, anything that is a desktop that doesn't run iOS/Android/other mobile OSes.That means windows, many versions linux, Mac OS_.
thats currently a pretty backed up fact.... Once a tablet can take over 90%+ of productivity jobs (like powerpoint, word, excel, multi moniters, etc) than i am willing to merge the two together.... Leaving it as Phones and all the other personal devices.\
And for the windows comment, i grew up using Mac OS9/X... i currently use windows 60-70% of time, linux probably 20% and Mac OSX the rest.
also i want to say i have a executive functioning problem which makes it harder for me to get the ideas from my head to writing or speech. This can make it hard for things like this, if you need clarification of what i am trying to say please ask
There are machines we need for heavy lifting and those we need for everything else. PCs & Macs are mainly for heavy lifting, ie work, ie they're trucks. They're not going away any time soon. We'll just be using cars a lot more often.
"Post PC" is silly because it implies PCs will become a relic of the past, like VCRs, when in fact we still need PCs for heavy lifting.
"PC+" is silly because it implies that PCs are still the center of most people's computing universe, when clearly that's shifted to smartphones and tablets.
Both terms serve the specific agendas of the companies promoting them.
If 10 (or 5) years ago, Apple owned 90% of the PC market, do you think they'd have come up with "Post PC"?
Also this...
Both companies are moving toward a more unified OS user-experience.
We all know how much OS X is borrowing from iOS. The main difference is that Apple, in the way Apple uniquely does, made a clean break from their legacy OS to truly reimagine an OS for mobile devices. When iOS started tearing up the market, Microsoft said: Holy cow! We need a next-generation OS for mobile too! But, instead of completely breaking from Windows, which Microsoft very rarely does, they said: Let's leverage our massive PC OS market share to the max in order to launch our new mobile OS. Hence, Windows 8 with the Metro shell. BTW, its siblings, Windows 8 RT and Windows Phone, are in many ways clean breaks from the legacy OS.
Both strategies have virtues and liabilities. But in actuality, these companies don't see the world very differently and both are pushing next-generation mobile OS's while trying to build continuity to their legacy OS's.
The main difference between Apple and Microsoft is the assets they had in place before embarking on their strategies. Microsoft had the massive Windows franchise. And Apple had the iPod/iTunes and a visionary leader.
Once a tablet can take over 90%+ of productivity jobs (like powerpoint, word, excel, multi moniters, etc) than i am willing to merge the two together.... Leaving it as Phones and all the other personal devices.
This is where your line of thinking is off... It has nothing to do with 90% of productivity... If the iPad can replace 95% of what most people use computers for, then it'll sell. A vast majority of people don't use computers for productivity or for very little. This is why Microsoft is wrong and why they've been wrong when it comes to the consumer market; very few consumers need anything like Office. Very few consumers want to deal with all the complexities that come with computing. Steve Jobs knew this. iOS is the next evolution of computing. Does that mean there won't be desktop PCs anymore? Absolutely not, I couldn't live without mine, that's for sure. But I also have an iPad that I use all the time.
I completely forgot about those ads. Not exactly a successful campaign. Now even people that have never used a Mac seem to be familiar with the Get A Mac campaign if they are from a country that ran them.
I do like Microsoft's incorporation of a PC based processor into their Surface which will run PC software and have usable USB ports. In my business, this is a better and more useful direction for a tablet, showing that the iPad is really just for games and internet access and not work. I see a place for both.
Really? I hear this a lot and yet, no one has remarked on how wonderful their Tablet PCs are? I can't quite figure out why that is?
Why don't you just get a netbook? Not sure what advantages having a device like the Surface will be?
People don't seem to understand, that Windows is Windows... form factor isn't going to help make the experience any better or different. Microsoft knows this. They've tried several times; Tablet PC, UMPC, and Netbooks... While netbooks were successful for a moment, none of these devices made using Windows a joy... That is to say, these form factors are not great for desktop based operating systems for one simple reason, the screen is too small to be practical for productivity using a window based OS.
The iPad didn't become popular only because of its form, it sells well because of its easy to use.
This is where your line of thinking is off... It has nothing to do with 90% of productivity... If the iPad can replace 95% of what most people use computers for, then it'll sell. A vast majority of people don't use computers for productivity or for very little. This is why Microsoft is wrong and why they've been wrong when it comes to the consumer market; very few consumers need anything like Office. Very few consumers want to deal with all the complexities that come with computing. Steve Jobs knew this. iOS is the next evolution of computing. Does that mean there won't be desktop PCs anymore? Absolutely not, I couldn't live without mine, that's for sure. But I also have an iPad that I use all the time.
could offices across america the world replace their computer with iPads and get as much done in the same time?
based on everything i have seen and heard the answer in no. The closest device to being able to fill that role however, is the surface.... (the x86-64 version)
your statement is what i am talking about. you don't NEED your iPad, its "extra" but you (and most others) need a "real PC" as some people call them. I just say desktop/notebook.
That being said one of my friend in Singapore went a month or two only using his iPhone, iPod Touch and iPad, i will ask him to write something about what he could and couldn't do !
what i was trying to say is until Tablets can FULLY REPLACE DESKTOPS FOR 90-95%+ people than I will not consider them in the same class as more traditional PC's (desktops, notebooks).
I think the only tablet that has a chance of filling both roles right now is actually the surface, mostly because you can use it is a tablet and than turn it into a notebook and have access to full versions of MS office/other productivity software.
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by sflocal
Ballmer was right all this time... no one would EVER spend that much on a Phone!! *rolls eyes*
Microsoft is basically fighting the last stand at the OK Corral. They are trying to prove to everyone that they are still relevant.
It is a post-PC area. I don't think PC's will ever really be gone. They certainly will be still used in the business world, however when consumers get home or are out and about with their lives, it will be mobile/consumer tech and that's where Microsoft is going to be buried 6-feet under.
Microsoft had so many shots and opportunities for decades. They flopped each time. How embarrassing.
Every time I find myself cutting Microsoft a little slack for working on something different and toning down the obnoxious rhetoric, one of their clown executives slithers out of the sewer to claim a false victory and bash Apple. Their ineptitude convinces me they're destined for failure, and their arrogance makes me eager to see them fail.
Microsoft: no vision, no leadership, no taste, no class.
It would all be so much convincing if Microsoft had actually shipped this product — and sold a ton. Then there might be something to back up their opinion.
Quote:
"Apple makes great hardware," Turner said. "The reality is in the OS we see things differently. They've talked about it being the post-PC era, they talk about the tablet and PC being different, the reality in our world is that we think that's completely incorrect.
Well.. when your Surface sells 15 million each quarter then you make a claim that your approach the correct one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton
Maybe Microsoft can explain why Windows Tablet PCs haven't been a mainstream hit since the early 1990s.
I used Windows tablets going all the way back to Windows 3.11 running on 386 tablets. They just put a new coat of paint on Windows and the Tablet PC and are trying to convince you it's now PC+?
When the hell was a Windows tablet ever a hit?
Quote:
Originally Posted by GadgetCanada
If Apple got serious and produced a real Office Suite comparable to MS Office (iWork doesn't count) but lean, mean and full of features, Microsoft would be screwed.
If I was a Microsoft investor, I would be seriously concerned. Don't let MS turn into RIM.
Not so sure about that. The vast majority of people use productivity software in the office and the vast majority of offices using MS Office.
Apple's iWork suite, even if it attained feature parity with MS Office, has a drastically different user interface. Most would argue that it's better, but for the masses that use MS Office every day, it's difficult or impossible to justify the learning curve for a product suite that's not compatible with the document formats they use at work. Yes, I realize there's some level of compatibility. But anyone doing extensive editing on one platform will wind up needing to do a lot of cleanup work when exporting and importing to the other. Believe me, I've tried.
Incidentally nothing would make me happier than to see Microsoft follow RIM down the toilet bowl. They both deserve it. My sympathies are limited to any talented employees that get dragged down by the ineptitude of the companies' executives.
Quote:
Originally Posted by filburt
I would like to give Microsoft a benefit of the doubt, but they are really doing it wrong.
Apple phrased "post-PC" after iPad became a huge success. Microsoft, on the other hand, is using "PC+" before delivering results.
That's incorrect. Steve Jobs was talking about "post-PC" devices before the iPad and as far back as 2007. I remember he talked about "post-PC" during his interview in D5 conference with Bill Gates (available in iTunes by the way). I remember when he said it Walt asked him not to say "post-PC" because some people get upset when they hear the term and send him angry emails.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Fix
I do like Microsoft's incorporation of a PC based processor into their Surface which will run PC software and have usable USB ports. In my business, this is a better and more useful direction for a tablet, showing that the iPad is really just for games and internet access and not work. I see a place for both.
It's easy to yearn for full desktop power in a thin and light portable. But I would curb my enthusiasm until they have a shipping product and we have the opportunity to evaluate its performance against battery life, size/weight, reliability, cost and usability. Microsoft have been the Masters of Vaporware for 30 years.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfiejr
the best thing about this debate is that the answer will be decided in the marektplace over the next year. and we'll actually see who was right/wrong.
and we'll actually see who was right/wrong, AGAIN.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
Quote:
MS wins in volume on "traditional PC's"...
Are traditional PCs not the same all purpose PCs? If so, then why obfuscate your point? if not, what's the difference? Seems to me you are assuming that if it's running Windows it's good and if it's not it's not good. You even solidify that comment by categorizing the iPad as being just for entertainment and falling back into the pejorative "toy" category.
an ipad has a lot less productivity than a PC currently has. And no, anything that is a desktop that doesn't run iOS/Android/other mobile OSes.That means windows, many versions linux, Mac OS_.
thats currently a pretty backed up fact.... Once a tablet can take over 90%+ of productivity jobs (like powerpoint, word, excel, multi moniters, etc) than i am willing to merge the two together.... Leaving it as Phones and all the other personal devices.\
And for the windows comment, i grew up using Mac OS9/X... i currently use windows 60-70% of time, linux probably 20% and Mac OSX the rest.
also i want to say i have a executive functioning problem which makes it harder for me to get the ideas from my head to writing or speech. This can make it hard for things like this, if you need clarification of what i am trying to say please ask
Turner calls the newly-designed operating system a "game changer."
Like the Zune was a game-changer????
But he does have a point. I mean, Apple have been wrong on most of their other predictions...
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaHarder
Absolutely... espcially given that 'some' insist on including iPads sales when quoting Apple's total 'Personal Computers' sold each quarter.
PC+ is a far more accurate description of the current computing landscape.
Current yes, but Microsoft is wrong.
Steve Jobs never said we're currently in the Post PC era, he said we're entering it.
Typical of Microsoft to only see what's in front of them and not see what's coming around the corner.
A horse by committee turns into a camel. You can't get ahead looking in the rearview mirror.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roozda
Turner calls the newly-designed operating system a "game changer."
Like the Zune was a game-changer????
But he does have a point. I mean, Apple have been wrong on most of their other predictions...
What about the Kin? wasn't that also a huge game changer *chuckles*
http://arstechnica.com/apple/2009/07/apple-demanded-microsoft-to-stop-its-laptop-hunters-ads/
Worked out great, didn't it?
ALL SPIN... from both Apple and Microsoft.
The truth is closer to Jobs' car/truck analogy.
There are machines we need for heavy lifting and those we need for everything else. PCs & Macs are mainly for heavy lifting, ie work, ie they're trucks. They're not going away any time soon. We'll just be using cars a lot more often.
"Post PC" is silly because it implies PCs will become a relic of the past, like VCRs, when in fact we still need PCs for heavy lifting.
"PC+" is silly because it implies that PCs are still the center of most people's computing universe, when clearly that's shifted to smartphones and tablets.
Both terms serve the specific agendas of the companies promoting them.
If 10 (or 5) years ago, Apple owned 90% of the PC market, do you think they'd have come up with "Post PC"?
Also this...
Both companies are moving toward a more unified OS user-experience.
We all know how much OS X is borrowing from iOS. The main difference is that Apple, in the way Apple uniquely does, made a clean break from their legacy OS to truly reimagine an OS for mobile devices. When iOS started tearing up the market, Microsoft said: Holy cow! We need a next-generation OS for mobile too! But, instead of completely breaking from Windows, which Microsoft very rarely does, they said: Let's leverage our massive PC OS market share to the max in order to launch our new mobile OS. Hence, Windows 8 with the Metro shell. BTW, its siblings, Windows 8 RT and Windows Phone, are in many ways clean breaks from the legacy OS.
Both strategies have virtues and liabilities. But in actuality, these companies don't see the world very differently and both are pushing next-generation mobile OS's while trying to build continuity to their legacy OS's.
The main difference between Apple and Microsoft is the assets they had in place before embarking on their strategies. Microsoft had the massive Windows franchise. And Apple had the iPod/iTunes and a visionary leader.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicolbolas
Once a tablet can take over 90%+ of productivity jobs (like powerpoint, word, excel, multi moniters, etc) than i am willing to merge the two together.... Leaving it as Phones and all the other personal devices.
This is where your line of thinking is off... It has nothing to do with 90% of productivity... If the iPad can replace 95% of what most people use computers for, then it'll sell. A vast majority of people don't use computers for productivity or for very little. This is why Microsoft is wrong and why they've been wrong when it comes to the consumer market; very few consumers need anything like Office. Very few consumers want to deal with all the complexities that come with computing. Steve Jobs knew this. iOS is the next evolution of computing. Does that mean there won't be desktop PCs anymore? Absolutely not, I couldn't live without mine, that's for sure. But I also have an iPad that I use all the time.
I completely forgot about those ads. Not exactly a successful campaign. Now even people that have never used a Mac seem to be familiar with the Get A Mac campaign if they are from a country that ran them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Fix
I do like Microsoft's incorporation of a PC based processor into their Surface which will run PC software and have usable USB ports. In my business, this is a better and more useful direction for a tablet, showing that the iPad is really just for games and internet access and not work. I see a place for both.
Really? I hear this a lot and yet, no one has remarked on how wonderful their Tablet PCs are? I can't quite figure out why that is?
Why don't you just get a netbook? Not sure what advantages having a device like the Surface will be?
People don't seem to understand, that Windows is Windows... form factor isn't going to help make the experience any better or different. Microsoft knows this. They've tried several times; Tablet PC, UMPC, and Netbooks... While netbooks were successful for a moment, none of these devices made using Windows a joy... That is to say, these form factors are not great for desktop based operating systems for one simple reason, the screen is too small to be practical for productivity using a window based OS.
The iPad didn't become popular only because of its form, it sells well because of its easy to use.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjtomlin
This is where your line of thinking is off... It has nothing to do with 90% of productivity... If the iPad can replace 95% of what most people use computers for, then it'll sell. A vast majority of people don't use computers for productivity or for very little. This is why Microsoft is wrong and why they've been wrong when it comes to the consumer market; very few consumers need anything like Office. Very few consumers want to deal with all the complexities that come with computing. Steve Jobs knew this. iOS is the next evolution of computing. Does that mean there won't be desktop PCs anymore? Absolutely not, I couldn't live without mine, that's for sure. But I also have an iPad that I use all the time.
could offices across america the world replace their computer with iPads and get as much done in the same time?
based on everything i have seen and heard the answer in no. The closest device to being able to fill that role however, is the surface.... (the x86-64 version)
your statement is what i am talking about. you don't NEED your iPad, its "extra" but you (and most others) need a "real PC" as some people call them. I just say desktop/notebook.
That being said one of my friend in Singapore went a month or two only using his iPhone, iPod Touch and iPad, i will ask him to write something about what he could and couldn't do
what i was trying to say is until Tablets can FULLY REPLACE DESKTOPS FOR 90-95%+ people than I will not consider them in the same class as more traditional PC's (desktops, notebooks).
I think the only tablet that has a chance of filling both roles right now is actually the surface, mostly because you can use it is a tablet and than turn it into a notebook and have access to full versions of MS office/other productivity software.