Microsoft says Apple's 'post-PC' view is wrong, claims it's a 'PC+' era

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  • Reply 181 of 213
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,176member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post





    The Last Bite

    A special feature where our own Dick Applebaum clears up misconceptions and speaks his mind.


    I've only recently become more cognizant of how deep Mr. Applebaum's industry roots go. I'm more impressed and amazed with each story he brings to the forum. He's one of the very few here that can add nuance to Apple news. 

  • Reply 182 of 213
    dick applebaumdick applebaum Posts: 12,527member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post





    The Last Bite

    A special feature where our own Dick Applebaum clears up misconceptions and speaks his mind.


     


    A special feature where our own Dick Applebaum speaks misconceptions and clears up his mind  Emoji.png

  • Reply 183 of 213
    dick applebaumdick applebaum Posts: 12,527member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post





    They need to get you a special section: Applebaum's Hour on AppleInsider.


     


     


    Or maybe just AppleBaumInsider...


     


    I worked on a joint project with Apple some years back, and Pete Kavanaugh, the project leader insisted on writing my name as: AppleBaum


     


    ...keep those cards and letters coming... especially the ones with checks enclosed!

  • Reply 184 of 213
    dick applebaumdick applebaum Posts: 12,527member


    MS has finally published the specs for the Surface Pro... And it is PC+++


     


    Here ya' go:


     


    Surface?{?1 ??.?3 4=+/,¯1 0 1?.?¯1 0 1?.???}


     


     


    And here's a closeup of the Surface kb layout:


     


    union.png


     


     


    ...Sorry, I couldn't find an image of the Cyrillic version!


     


     


    And a screen capture of the Surface Pro running Word:


     


    WordToolbars.jpg

  • Reply 185 of 213
    nicolbolasnicolbolas Posts: 254member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post





    An iPad using AirPlay.


    ... And what uses does a fairly low powered device have streaming images to multiple monitors?


     


    it is less practical than using a desktop + streaming or a desktop + cables.


     


    ...

  • Reply 186 of 213
    dick applebaumdick applebaum Posts: 12,527member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by nicolbolas View Post


    ... And what uses does a fairly low powered device have streaming images to multiple monitors?


     


    it is less practical than using a desktop + streaming or a desktop + cables.


     


    ...



     


    Oh, I can't thing of a single thing... Except:


     



    • giving a preso in the board room, classroom, etc.


    • several persons taking turns showing their solution to a class problem


    • people sharing their component of a collaborative effort


    • the convenience of showing results without going to another location/computer


    • a doctor showing a patient detail information/images on the large screen


    • a video editor  reviewing cuts/dailies with a group of director, AD, cast, crew


    • sharing home movies and slide shows with family and friends


    • giving a Keynote preso


    • demonstrating how to use an app on the tablet


    • display your or the client's stock portfolio and show live interaction


    • display this AI forum thread to the family -- we all had a good laugh at the Word display from post 184 -- and yes you can pinch zoom to see "Not much room down here"


    • display anything on this site, the web or any VNC computer for all to see


     


    ...Nah, I got nothing!

  • Reply 187 of 213
    tallest skiltallest skil Posts: 43,388member
    ...keep those cards and letters coming... especially the ones with checks enclosed!
    ??
    nicolbolas wrote: »
    ... And what uses does a fairly low powered device have streaming images to multiple monitors?

    If you're unable to imagine a use for such a thing, I would imagine the feature is meaningless to you and should be of no concern, yes?
  • Reply 188 of 213
    solipsismxsolipsismx Posts: 19,566member
    Oh, I can't thing of a single thing... Except:
    • giving a preso in the board room, classroom, etc.
    • several persons taking turns showing their solution to a class problem
    • people sharing their component of a collaborative effort
    • the convenience of showing results without going to another location/computer
    • a doctor showing a patient detail information/images on the large screen
    • a video editor  reviewing cuts/dailies with a group of director, AD, cast, crew
    • sharing home movies and slide shows with family and friends
    • giving a Keynote preso
    • demonstrating how to use an app on the tablet
    • display your or the client's stock portfolio and show live interaction
    • display this AI forum thread to the family -- we all had a good laugh at the Word display from post 184 -- and yes you can pinch zoom to see "Not much room down here"
    • display anything on this site, the web or any VNC computer for all to see

    ...Nah, I got nothing!

    I think I'm pretty awesome but sometimes you remind me why you're my hero.
  • Reply 189 of 213

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post


     


    Oh, I can't thing of a single thing... Except:


     



    • giving a preso in the board room, classroom, etc.


    • several persons taking turns showing their solution to a class problem


    • people sharing their component of a collaborative effort


    • the convenience of showing results without going to another location/computer


    • a doctor showing a patient detail information/images on the large screen


    • a video editor  reviewing cuts/dailies with a group of director, AD, cast, crew


    • sharing home movies and slide shows with family and friends


    • giving a Keynote preso


    • demonstrating how to use an app on the tablet


    • display your or the client's stock portfolio and show live interaction


    • display this AI forum thread to the family -- we all had a good laugh at the Word display from post 184 -- and yes you can pinch zoom to see "Not much room down here"


    • display anything on this site, the web or any VNC computer for all to see


     


    ...Nah, I got nothing!



    -the presentation which would be cheaper and more easily made on a notebook or desktop?


    -yes, this makes sense, but that is multiple devices streaming to one screen, not what we are talking about


    -um.... people do this via notebooks and pc's


    -yes


    -doctors do this.... with mounted computers.


    -done via desktop just fine  currently.


    -um, also done with desktops and notebooks just fine currently


    -sure, but also doable with desktops and notebooks


    -yeah.


    -um.... done with notebooks and desktops


    -i would say that is not a common reason


    -um, the last part is that desktops and notebooks do that.


     


     


    Oh, and you have to buy monitors that support airplay....


     


    The ability may have its uses, but the vast majority are done by notebooks and desktops with the same efficiency (or more), less data flowing through the air and cheaper.


     


    So yes, they could replace and do a worse job than desktops.... i guess i should restate my point:


     


    What kind the low powered device streaming to MULTIPLE MONITORS (that means two or more you realize!!) do more effectively than a notebook or desktop can do?  


    the answer is very few things.


     


     


     


    As my sig now reads, i do have troubles getting my ideas all out of my head, so these kinds of things help me! thanks whether you meant to or not :)!! :D 

  • Reply 190 of 213
    tallest skiltallest skil Posts: 43,388member
    [quote name="nicolbolas" url="/t/151247/microsoft-says-apples-post-pc-view-is-wrong-claims-its-a-pc-era/160#post_2147098"]-the presentation which would be cheaper and more easily made on a notebook or desktop?[/QUOTE]

    Doubtfully.

    [QUOTE]-um…. people do this via notebooks and pc's[/QUOTE]

    Welcome to last century.

    [QUOTE]-doctors do this.... with mounted computers.[/QUOTE]

    They prefer iPads.

    [QUOTE]-done via desktop just fine  currently.
    -um, also done with desktops and notebooks just fine currently
    -sure, but also doable with desktops and notebooks[/QUOTE]

    And I'm certain the use of mercury thermometers and asbestos blankets was 'just fine', as well. And not as easily.

    [QUOTE]Oh, and you have to buy monitors that support airplay....[/QUOTE]

    So as long as you don't buy one that doesn't have a VGA, DVI, or HDMI port, nor a port that can be reached via an adapter for the three aforementioned, you're fine.

    I'm saying that any monitor on Earth save pre-RBY televisions will do it.

    [QUOTE]… done by notebooks and desktops with the same efficiency (or more), less data flowing through the air and cheaper.[/QUOTE]

    How? And how is a mobile device supposed to be "less practical" than a desktop with… cables… :lol:
  • Reply 191 of 213


    Dear Mr. Ballmer,


     


    Just by shorting MSFT whenever it has traded consistently above $30 for a few sessions (using a channeling strategy), I have been able to pay for the iMac that I bought last November. Thanks. I haven't quite covered the cost of the matching Thunderbolt display yet though. So please keep up the "good work." Why not plan another iPhone funeral? Or better yet, guarantee the market that you're going to sell more of those Surfboard tablets in 1 month than Apple sold iPads in 12 months.


     


    Steve, u da man! Don't let anybody tell you any different. Microsoft is lucky to have you. Now go out there and say something. Anything!

  • Reply 192 of 213

    Removed... duplicate duplicate... Apparently AI needs a file system!
  • Reply 193 of 213

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Jag_Warrior View Post


    Dear Mr. Ballmer,


     


    Just by shorting MSFT whenever it has traded consistently above $30 for a few sessions (using a channeling strategy), I have been able to pay for the iMac that I bought last November. Thanks. I haven't quite covered the cost of the matching Thunderbolt display yet though. So please keep up the "good work." Why not plan another iPhone funeral? Or better yet, guarantee the market that you're going to sell more of those Surfboard tablets in 1 month than Apple sold iPads in 12 months.


     


    Steve, u da man! Don't let anybody tell you any different. Microsoft is lucky to have you. Now go out there and say something. Anything!



     


    Ballmer and MS management are so out of touch that they think that "grape nuts" is an STD.

  • Reply 194 of 213

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by nicolbolas View Post


    -the presentation which would be cheaper and more easily made on a notebook or desktop?


    -yes, this makes sense, but that is multiple devices streaming to one screen, not what we are talking about


    -um.... people do this via notebooks and pc's


    -yes


    -doctors do this.... with mounted computers.


    -done via desktop just fine  currently.


    -um, also done with desktops and notebooks just fine currently


    -sure, but also doable with desktops and notebooks


    -yeah.


    -um.... done with notebooks and desktops


    -i would say that is not a common reason


    -um, the last part is that desktops and notebooks do that.


     


     


    Oh, and you have to buy monitors that support airplay....


     


    The ability may have its uses, but the vast majority are done by notebooks and desktops with the same efficiency (or more), less data flowing through the air and cheaper.


     


    So yes, they could replace and do a worse job than desktops.... i guess i should restate my point:


     


    What kind the low powered device streaming to MULTIPLE MONITORS (that means two or more you realize!!) do more effectively than a notebook or desktop can do?  


    the answer is very few things.


     


     


     


    As my sig now reads, i do have troubles getting my ideas all out of my head, so these kinds of things help me! thanks whether you meant to or not :)!! :D 




     


    First, I understand the implications of your sig... believe me I've been there & go back to visit quite often.


     


    But I don't quite know how to understand and respond to your post...


     


    Second, I have sold/installed computer networks in corporate boardrooms as far back as 1982...


     


    Third, you seem to think that the way we did it yesterday (and the way many do it now) is the best way... because "That's how it is done".


     


     


    Instead of responding point by point -- let me give you a scenario:


     


    There is a corporate board meeting where the 5 Senior VPs will each give a short preso on how their groups are progressing on the new product under development...


     


    The boardroom has an HDTV, a $280 Airport Extreme WiFi router, a $100 Apple TV and a $50 HDMI cable.


     


    The CEO and 5 SVPs enter the room and are seated...  after some small talk each SVP, in turn makes his preso:


     



    1. he picks up his iPad


    2. he swipes to unlock


    3. he double clicks the Home button to activate the task bar


    4. he swipes right to access AirPlay


    5. he taps the icon to invoke AirPlay


    6. he taps the Boardroom AppleTV list item to select it


    7. he turns on Screen Mirroring (if desired) -- his iPad screen is mirrored on the HDTV


    8. he swipes left to reveal the task bar showing his suspended app (he is prepared)


    9. he taps the app to launch it


    10. he gives his preso


     


    This all takes less time (about 5 seconds) than it takes to describe


     


     


    Each SVP, in turn repeats the process... there us no waiting for boot, switching batteries, pugging in accessories/dongles/thumb drives, attaching chargers or power buses...


     


    It is Wham, Bam... Thank you Sam!


     


    During any of the presos, the SVP can surf the web, invoke a SS with charts, show the current stock prices, access corporate data via VNC, play a promotional video -- he can even [demo how to] edit a movie....


     


    But, most of the time, they'll just give their prepared presos.


     


     


    So you are telling us you can do a better/cheaper job with traditional PCs, cables, power busses, ad hoc connections, and all the baggage that goes with it.


     


     


    Let's say the 5 SVPs each have $700 (top of the line WiFi iPads).  With another $700 iPad for the CEO, our total one-time cost is under $5,000... Hell, any first-level manager can authorize a $5,000 expenditure without any [upper] management approval!


     


     


    Show us how you can do it cheaper, better and easier -- using any hardware/software you choose!


     


     


    This example was a boardroom, it could just as as easily have been:  a classroom, training room, cafeteria, auditorium pre-op room...

  • Reply 195 of 213

    Removed, duplicate... AI's magical forum autoposter...
  • Reply 196 of 213
    zozmanzozman Posts: 393member


    I think its simple, microsoft are scared, they have a high market share for computer OS installs, if they admit that there is a post pc era, then their days are numbered (because they might think everyone will ditch PCs for phones & tablets), in their simple minds, they think that post pc means its us or them, you either have a pc or a tablet, not both.

    thats what i think microsoft is so stubborn about this.

     


    As far as i can see, for a while yet, im still going to need a computer, i have an iPad but my iPad cant take over for all the dutes my computers have.

  • Reply 197 of 213
    jeffdmjeffdm Posts: 12,951member
    mike fix wrote: »
    I do like Microsoft's incorporation of a PC based processor into their Surface which will run PC software and have usable USB ports.  In my business, this is a better and more useful direction for a tablet, showing that the iPad is really just for games and internet access and not work.  I see a place for both.

    The market for a desktop OS on a tablet is called a niche. Don't take my word for it, examine the history of Microsoft TabletPCs.

    If Apple got serious and produced a real Office Suite comparable to MS Office (iWork doesn't count) but lean, mean and full of features, Microsoft would be screwed.
    If I was a Microsoft investor, I would be seriously concerned. Don't let MS turn into RIM.

    I don't think it makes sense for Apple to try to compete with Microsoft on Office suites. They usually don't try to compete head-on like that.

    alfiejr wrote: »
    the best thing about this debate is that the answer will be decided in the marektplace over the next year. and we'll actually see who was right/wrong.

    There is already a track record in the market. To discount the track record, the Surface Pro proponents need to explain what's different this time over the previous incarnations.

    nicolbolas wrote: »

    i think the real way you can cut it would be "all purpose PC's" and "entertainment PC's" :)   This gives you two distinct graphs, "older" versions of PC's and "newer" versions of PC's.

    That's going to be a fuzzy distinction, and too prone to biases. The definitions need to be clearer than that.

    rogifan wrote: »
    Oh and here's another Lenovo lt that the Apple haters swear up and down looks nothing like a Mac.

    Why is it so hard for people to admit that a lot of PC laptops/Ultrabooks take their design cues from the MacBook Pro/Air these days? It's so obvious. And has nothing to do with whether Apple invented something or not (i.e. wedge shape, chicklit keyboard), it's about the finished product, all th design components put together.

    I don't think they want to admit that Apple is shaping the future of technology and design, and that their favorite companies are but followers.

    maestro64 wrote: »
    oh course they see it that way, so did IBM when the PC come onto the stage, they though the PC would be an extension to the Mainframe and they would never disappeared, I know many of you have no clue what a Mainframe is, and you kids in 20 years will no idea what a PC is either.

    Did the public really understand what a mainframe was? At best, the popular understanding was just a big computer.

    pendergast wrote: »
    As mentioned, Jobs' analogy of cars and trucks makes the most sense. 

    Traditional PCs = pickups
    Tablets/Smartphones = sedans

    I suppose laptops, who although predate tablets actually seem like a tweener category between PCs and Tablets, are analogous to crossover vehicles, SUVs, etc.

    I dislike vehicular analogies, they're cliché and I don't think they communicate the point very well. Also, it invites comparisons to when people mocked a certain politician for saying the "Internet isn't a dump truck". Why shouldn't the same amount of derision be used on individuals that suggest a laptop is a truck?

    fyngyrz wrote: »
    Microsoft has it right: As tablets power up, they're destined to become more powerful, support more interfaces, like IR, radio, USB, optical, memory, etc. They'll move towards PCs. The closer they get, the more they can do, the better I'll like them.

    Just as a reminder that you did mention optical as a must-have feature.

    I'll point down that technically, tablets are "powered" down. I think you're forgetting the multiple TabletPC flops. They provided all the features you requested and that couldn't save them.

    How many times have you used IR on a computer?

    What kind of radio are you talking about there? AM/FM? Cellular? iPads have, Bluetooth, WiFi and optional cellular radios. Radio stations stream on the internet.

    nicolbolas wrote: »
    so, I am and was talking with my friend, i have a summary of what we were saying.

    -it was a brutal in beginning, made himself use ipad 2 as main device to consume device
    -when he did it they lacked some tech like online (aka remote simulation screened to tablet)
    -cumbersome to do any word/excel/etc related work
    -many websites were still not optimized for tablet
    -he could survive on it for 4-5 months, didn't miss anything apart from intensive gaming.
    -but believes that any tablet device is a very good compliment to desktop or laptop, but it will never replace a primary device no matter how good apps (things that replicate desktop experience)
    -because restraints on screen size AND ways of impute (swype would have made it better, it is on android)
    -had to use portable keyboard which worked as a stand
    -can do 60% of his work on ipad vs. tablet, but could not replace completely
    -streaming speeds slow compared to desktop + buffer less
    -cannot not do multiple things at once (Seeing multiple programs at once)
    -works as: investment background, was being mentored by men from two different multinational companies which both were financial firms

    I think he's in the 10% that other people mention. I am as well. I don't think it makes sense to complain that a device doesn't fit your needs when it wasn't designed to fit your needs.

    The point remains that iPads fill the needs of most people, and will continue to fill the needs a wider variety of people as apps and peripherals are available. The IBM PC didn't meet a lot of needs either, an ecosystem developed around it, and it took a decade to be accepted by consumers.
  • Reply 198 of 213
    hungoverhungover Posts: 603member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post





    The market for a desktop OS on a tablet is called a niche. Don't take my word for it, examine the history of Microsoft TabletPCs.

     


    The earlier tablet devices were hampered by the hardware available at the time. They tended to be cumbersome, expensive and under promoted. In the main they were aimed at those that wanted the ability to use a stylus for annotations. The fact that windows was not optimized for fingers didn't help.


     


    Perhaps one of the biggest obstacles was the limited, or painfully slow internet access. Had the iPad been released in 2005 it may well have flopped.


     


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post





    I don't think they want to admit that Apple is shaping the future of technology and design, and that their favorite companies are but followers.

     


    So who did Amtek copy in 2007 with their capacitive touch screen iTablet?


     


    2007itablet.jpg


     


     


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post



    The point remains that iPads fill the needs of most people, and will continue to fill the needs a wider variety of people as apps and peripherals are available.  


    Perhaps, but as time passes the consumer will demand more. Look how many iPhone owners honestly believe that the 2007 iphone was the first smart phone. For those people the move from a feature phone to the iphone was liberating and they had no need to want more because they knew no better. I for one miss some of the features that I had years ago; IR TV remote control, OBEX BT, a file structure, BT DUN, pixel perfect drawing, the ability to use my PC to control my phone and so on. I may well be one of the 10%ers that you refer to but to suggest that the iPad fufills the needs of the 90% is flawed. Those people might not know what their needs are just yet.


     


    Personally I see the whole "post PC" "PC plus" thing as little more than marketing hype.

  • Reply 199 of 213
    solipsismxsolipsismx Posts: 19,566member
    hungover wrote: »
    Perhaps one of the biggest obstacles was the limited, or painfully slow internet access. Had the iPad been released in 2005 it may well have flopped.
    Which is why a smart company will choose when and how to launch a product so it makes the proper impact on the market nstead of just bringing to market something with the lowest level of completion just so they can claim "First!"

    So who did Amtek copy in 2007 with their capacitive touch screen iTablet?

    LL

    1) That had a resistive touchscreen. It wasn't until mid-2010, after the iPad was launched did they have a capacitive touchscreen version... to demo.

    2) It cost $2,200 which means it was likely doomed from the start.

    3) It was low-end PC hardware running Windows. This was nothing new. Don't think because its name is iTablet that Apple copied a damn thing from this 2 decade old, failed tablet model.
  • Reply 200 of 213

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post


    First, I understand the implications of your sig... believe me I've been there & go back to visit quite often.


     


    But I don't quite know how to understand and respond to your post...


     


    Second, I have sold/installed computer networks in corporate boardrooms as far back as 1982...


     


    Third, you seem to think that the way we did it yesterday (and the way many do it now) is the best way... because "That's how it is done".


     


     


    Instead of responding point by point -- let me give you a scenario:


     


    There is a corporate board meeting where the 5 Senior VPs will each give a short preso on how their groups are progressing on the new product under development...


     


    The boardroom has an HDTV, a $280 Airport Extreme WiFi router, a $100 Apple TV and a $50 HDMI cable.


     


    The CEO and 5 SVPs enter the room and are seated...  after some small talk each SVP, in turn makes his preso:


     



    1. he picks up his iPad


    2. he swipes to unlock


    3. he double clicks the Home button to activate the task bar


    4. he swipes right to access AirPlay


    5. he taps the icon to invoke AirPlay


    6. he taps the Boardroom AppleTV list item to select it


    7. he turns on Screen Mirroring (if desired) -- his iPad screen is mirrored on the HDTV


    8. he swipes left to reveal the task bar showing his suspended app (he is prepared)


    9. he taps the app to launch it


    10. he gives his preso


     


    This all takes less time (about 5 seconds) than it takes to describe


     


     


    Each SVP, in turn repeats the process... there us no waiting for boot, switching batteries, pugging in accessories/dongles/thumb drives, attaching chargers or power buses...


     


    It is Wham, Bam... Thank you Sam!


     


    During any of the presos, the SVP can surf the web, invoke a SS with charts, show the current stock prices, access corporate data via VNC, play a promotional video -- he can even [demo how to] edit a movie....


     


    But, most of the time, they'll just give their prepared presos.


     


     


    So you are telling us you can do a better/cheaper job with traditional PCs, cables, power busses, ad hoc connections, and all the baggage that goes with it.


     


     


    Let's say the 5 SVPs each have $700 (top of the line WiFi iPads).  With another $700 iPad for the CEO, our total one-time cost is under $5,000... Hell, any first-level manager can authorize a $5,000 expenditure without any [upper] management approval!


     


     


    Show us how you can do it cheaper, better and easier -- using any hardware/software you choose!


     


     


    This example was a boardroom, it could just as as easily have been:  a classroom, training room, cafeteria, auditorium pre-op room...



    all right.  you get 100 dollar PC with 6 monitors (estimated 200 each) so 2200.


    you get a projector + cloth.... estimated price 1-1.5k


    you have all (up to 6) sign into virtual machines and just switch the monitor input.


    you open documents whatever you need.  you turn on projector and have it display VM 1, than VM 2, etc.


     


     


    OR


    instead of having that projector,one everyone is ready you have VM1 duplicate what it sees onto all screen, once that is done have VM 2 do it, etc, etc.]


    not sure what the software would cost to do it super fast, but if you can wait a minute or two inbetween each persons presintation than it can be done for under $50 a person.


     


    so yes, i believe i can do it cheaper. As long as you have 6 or less people that is, but you can add another computer + moniters for each other set of people.. which does start taking dramatically more space.


    however, depending on what kind of biz the people worked at iPad's could be much better for everyday use, or completely worthless for doing work.  So i think which solution wins depends on that.


     


    also, depending on what other work they want to do in that meeting each solution can have varying degrees of usefulness.


     


    also sorry for spelling, i usually look up correct spellings if words say they are spelled incorrectly, just Apple insider doesn't let me do it via right click...

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