Does Office 2011 use OS X text APIs? If not, then text will look lousy on retina (see Chrome two weeks ago). And that's terrible.
Otherwise, retina-ready shouldn't be as much of an issue for a text editor, even an enormous one. This should be even more of a non-issue once Microsoft's Metro UI is implemented across all their apps. Not much overhead involved in rendering flat non-rounded solid-color boxes for everything.
If you work for yourself, you pretty much don't need Word/Excel unless you're frequently exchanging complex documents with those who use it, but if you work/consult for large companies, you definitely need Office. When I bought my last Mac about four years ago, I bought a copy of iWork figuring I would phase out my personal use of Office, but it never happened. I rarely use the Apple apps even though Numbers does have that one really nice feature where you can overlay differently sized grids within the same sheet. And no one and I mean no one has EVER sent me a Numbers spreadsheet or a Pages text document . I do use Keynote in the cases where I'm not going to give anyone copies of my presentation. Keynote usually does blow people away as compared to a typical Powerpoint presentation.
I don't care all that much if Microsoft updates Office for Mac quickly or not. Every time they come out with a new version of Office (or their OS for that matter), they seem to take three steps backwards for each step forwards. At the companies I consult for, some have the latest versions (with ribbon) and some have older (without ribbon) and I can move pretty intuitively between those versions and also with my Mac version. I'm fine with the versions I have. I don't need the app to work in the Cloud. As long as I can still edit Windows based Office documents on my Mac and vice-versa without having formatting errors or other screw-ups, I'm fine. (I happen to think this emphasis on having everything in the Cloud, including apps, is insane. What happens when you're not connected or have a slow connection? I'm very happy having my apps, especially those that are used every day, like Office, right on my hardware. If that and touch screen capability are the only changes Microsoft is making, they can keep their update anyway.)
But having said that, there are probably far more Mac users now, in business and otherwise, then when Microsoft released previous versions of Office for the Mac, since Apple has been breaking their own Mac sales records almost every quarter, so it seems a bit insane for Microsoft to skip or delay the next release of Office for Mac users.
Do we even need an Office 2013 for Mac? I mean how much more can you cram into an already bloated product whose myriad features go unused by the vast majority of human beings using it?
Indeed. On the specific announcement by MS, nothing new here:
"Ladies and gentlemen, may I introduce Microsoft!!!"
The old, monopolistic beast is back in true form. Too bad these are not the 90s anymore.
I agree--it doesn't seem like Apple has any interest in getting Office power users to switch to iWork. I think the market they are trying to tap is the defaulter home users--that is, the people who will use the option that is already installed, or, in the case of iWork, a two-click purchase.
What I am curious about is how many Mac users use iWork vs Google Docs. When I bought my Air, I switched to the latter out of sheer convenience, and while its features are rudimentary, the suite is not so much worse than iWork that I feel the need to switch back.
Apple, all you need now is to build a true Excel spreadsheet competitor for OSX. Include similar power that macros and VBA provides in Excel. Numbers right now is nice but nowhere near as powerful as Excel. Pages is great but you really need a heavy hitting spreadsheet app.
When you need macros or visual basic in a spreadsheet, your doing something wrong.
Numbers is excellent as it is now,but could use more functions and more flexibility of some functions.
This brings up an interesting dichotomy regarding office suite "power users."
Over the years, I have needed to create or work with rather large presentations. Hi-res images, video, slide object animation (for clarity and/or wow factor), and precise timing. Keynote is much more capable for all these areas than PowerPoint. I mean PPT on Windows; I have never used PPT on OS X.
Attribute it to underlying architecture, OS capability, whatever you want. Keynote keeps everything timed properly, even if it needs to drop a few frames, whereas PowerPoint gives me inconsistent behavior on different devices, and consistently terrible performance.
A tech friend of mine ended up running a live show's multimedia aspects through PowerPoint on his brand new high-end laptop. It struggled to handle the most benign media, including standard definition mp4 video, and would frequently stutter on audio files.
The takeaway? A business office power user needs Word. A presentation giving power user needs Keynote.
I'm surprised in all this discussion there has been no mention of Microsoft's decision to use "activation" in their Mac Office suite.
This is unacceptable to me under any circumstances. I actually purchased a copy of Office 2011 for Mac without reading the fine print (yeah, stupid), and it sits unused on the shelf. (discounted price, no way to return it, grr). I have no problem paying for software I use on a regular basis, whether I'm a fan of the company or not, but my computer is my own private computer and Microsoft has no business knowing what/when/how often/who or anything else about me or my software usage just because I've purchased their software. They can kiss my *ss.
Because I actually purchased the product, I'd be perfectly happy applying some hack to install and use it, but the little searching I did at the time (more than a year ago) revealed nothing of use.
Oh, and Adobe's on my shit list as well, for the same reasons.
Microsoft doing the only thing they can to fight the tide of the post-Microsoft era.
Apple is dominating and they are dying.
So what do they do? stop supporting Mac.
the only problem with that is that such a move only deprives them of money and further relegates them to irrelevancy, since more and more people using Macs will no longer have a need for Microsoft.
I myself use iWork.
The (extremely) rare time I actually "need" Office, I fire up OpenOffice or NeoOffice and I am done.
So no stealing MS software. just using high quality, free software that does the same thing.
And MS Word is a joke compared to Pages.
Powerpoint is likewise compared to Keynote.
Perhaps MS just realized they can't compete. In the end, they only hurt themselves.
At this rate, Apple has no plans to release iWork 2013 either.
But is that because they are going to
1. Never bother updating it again.
2. Update it this year
3. Drop the number and keep updating the current edition so you never have to pay for iWork again.
Apple, all you need now is to build a true Excel spreadsheet competitor for OSX.
Apples focus is consumers, not businesses. So no, Apple doesn't need to do it, just perhaps someone since Microsoft doesn't seem interested anymore. And someone likely will
I don't know if we need Office 2013 for Mac, but we do need some version of Office on the Mac to be feature complete - I mean, Outlook still doesn't have feature parity with dearly departed Entourage.
This also galls me - the amount of cash they're sitting on and they can't even pony-up to keep advancing the software products they've already got out there. iWork is languishing...Final Cut Pro X anyone?...and when was the last substantial update to Aperture? (No, don't tell me iCloud photo streams represent any real advancement of the feature set.)
What galls me is the folks that think their needs and wants should control what Apple does. And what galls me are the folks that think a program has to be totally overhauled, including UI, every couple of years or it is trash.
Every program of Apple's is being continuously updated even if the UI is not. Most folks. Would say paying once and getting x years of improvements is better than having to pay over and over for what are basically bug fixes.
I'm surprised in all this discussion there has been no mention of Microsoft's decision to use "activation" in their Mac Office suite.
This is unacceptable to me under any circumstances. I actually purchased a copy of Office 2011 for Mac without reading the fine print (yeah, stupid), and it sits unused on the shelf. (discounted price, no way to return it, grr). I have no problem paying for software I use on a regular basis, whether I'm a fan of the company or not, but my computer is my own private computer and Microsoft has no business knowing what/when/how often/who or anything else about me or my software usage just because I've purchased their software. They can kiss my *ss.
Because I actually purchased the product, I'd be perfectly happy applying some hack to install and use it, but the little searching I did at the time (more than a year ago) revealed nothing of use.
Oh, and Adobe's on my shit list as well, for the same reasons.
Fortunately, you don't have to tell Microsoft what's on your computer. When it asks if you want to activate it, you can say 'no' and it will give you a phone number to call. IIRC, they don't ask much (if anything) about the computer - they want the serial number on the Office package and I believe your contact information and that's it. It's a pain in the rear, but it doesn't take that long.
While we're on the subject, why in the world do they need 25 (or is it 30?) characters for a serial number? I hate having to type them all in every time I have to install the software.
I just wish Apple would be more open about what's happening to iWork. Is it dead or are they finally going to release a new version?
They've been "vewwy, vewwy quiet" - true......
Quote:
Originally Posted by ash471
I understand that iWork probably can't break into the enterprise market. However, since Apple is making a product, why don't they make it suitable for business. It just seems odd to me that Apple would purposely keep selling an inferior product. It isn't that iWork is a bad product...it is an incomplete product. Why won't Apple finish it off? Give us features like reviewing and compare documents and better paragraph numbering...etc.
They've got 100 billion dollars, why not spend 10 million on office software?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darryn Lowe
Apple gave what most consumers need... simplicity....
iWork isn't aimed at you... it's aimed at everyone else.
DL's comment excerpted and emphasis added:
If you want to share documents, iWork is not aimed at "everyone else," it's aimed solely at other Mac users or those who work entirely alone. Until you can "save as" in .Doc format and not have to create a new copy of an (often poorly) "exported" doc, you're locked in MacLand. And dupe files do not = simplicity.
Just what the computing world needed: three more proprietary file formats that 95% of computer users can't share.
That's been my objection from day one - and it remains so today. I totally prefer Keynote - and don't usually have to share those - but the rest? Fuhgeddaboudit - I need to share my sheets and docs transparently and easily. So Office it is. (And Open Office - nawwwwwww.) Bg biz users (I'm not one) also need collaboration features - and both Google and MS Office Live are leagues ahead in these capacities - although I avoid using either of them whenever possible. Maybe Sky Drive's come together, but once I found I had to save a file before I could create it, I was outta there, and GDocs just feels primitive - and is also no respector of Word formatting.
Fortunately, you don't have to tell Microsoft what's on your computer. When it asks if you want to activate it, you can say 'no' and it will give you a phone number to call. IIRC, they don't ask much (if anything) about the computer - they want the serial number on the Office package and I believe your contact information and that's it. It's a pain in the rear, but it doesn't take that long.
While we're on the subject, why in the world do they need 25 (or is it 30?) characters for a serial number? I hate having to type them all in every time I have to install the software.
Thanks for the reply. Two things:
1) As far as I know you have to call an 800 number, no way around that. So you're forced into giving them your phone number. Not a chance I'm ever going to do that. I guess one could call from a pay phone, if you can even find one anymore!
2) Why on earth would I give them contact information? I bought and paid for their software; it's none of their f#$!@# business who I am or what I do with their software. That's the biggest problem with this "activation" bullshit. If I want customer support, fine, then maybe I need to be in their system, but I don't, I just want to be left alone and not profiled or marketed-to against my will.
*IF* there was a process to "authorize" the software without getting into their damn customer database, I'd be happy to comply. I don't see that option.
Google docs work just fine. So does iWork. I havent done anything that required macros in ages. Apple really should try javascript macros in Numbers. They'd win alot of converts with something like that.
Apple, and in fact the computing world, has to somehow escape the Office jail. Business is addicted to Office.Unless someone breaks this addiction Microsoft will be able to direct the future of mobile computing by limiting the real Office to Windows phones, tablets and computers. Perhaps there is no escape from jail. Eventually, Microsoft will get the OS and hardware right and there will be quite a few Netscapes floating about.
I happen to think this emphasis on having everything in the Cloud, including apps, is insane. What happens when you're not connected or have a slow connection?
Well without connection you would still have the last version synchronized on your device, a properly done app will have an offline mode, so enough to work before eventually making a diff of the two files once a cloud connection is recovered.
Good. Finally an end to the bloated garbage that is Office (for Mac or otherwise). What a piece of nonsense bloatware that has plagued us for 10 years (before that it was actually OK). Mark my words, Microsoft will never regain its position past its current peak. It's all downhill from here.
Comments
Does Office 2011 use OS X text APIs? If not, then text will look lousy on retina (see Chrome two weeks ago). And that's terrible.
Otherwise, retina-ready shouldn't be as much of an issue for a text editor, even an enormous one. This should be even more of a non-issue once Microsoft's Metro UI is implemented across all their apps. Not much overhead involved in rendering flat non-rounded solid-color boxes for everything.
If you work for yourself, you pretty much don't need Word/Excel unless you're frequently exchanging complex documents with those who use it, but if you work/consult for large companies, you definitely need Office. When I bought my last Mac about four years ago, I bought a copy of iWork figuring I would phase out my personal use of Office, but it never happened. I rarely use the Apple apps even though Numbers does have that one really nice feature where you can overlay differently sized grids within the same sheet. And no one and I mean no one has EVER sent me a Numbers spreadsheet or a Pages text document . I do use Keynote in the cases where I'm not going to give anyone copies of my presentation. Keynote usually does blow people away as compared to a typical Powerpoint presentation.
I don't care all that much if Microsoft updates Office for Mac quickly or not. Every time they come out with a new version of Office (or their OS for that matter), they seem to take three steps backwards for each step forwards. At the companies I consult for, some have the latest versions (with ribbon) and some have older (without ribbon) and I can move pretty intuitively between those versions and also with my Mac version. I'm fine with the versions I have. I don't need the app to work in the Cloud. As long as I can still edit Windows based Office documents on my Mac and vice-versa without having formatting errors or other screw-ups, I'm fine. (I happen to think this emphasis on having everything in the Cloud, including apps, is insane. What happens when you're not connected or have a slow connection? I'm very happy having my apps, especially those that are used every day, like Office, right on my hardware. If that and touch screen capability are the only changes Microsoft is making, they can keep their update anyway.)
But having said that, there are probably far more Mac users now, in business and otherwise, then when Microsoft released previous versions of Office for the Mac, since Apple has been breaking their own Mac sales records almost every quarter, so it seems a bit insane for Microsoft to skip or delay the next release of Office for Mac users.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider
The Office for Mac 2011 update is expected to ship early next year alongside the Windows-only Office 2013.
And what compelling reasons are there, if any, for Windows users to upgrade from Office 2011 to Office 2013?
Cloud integration? Really? Exactly how important is that to the majority of Office users? You know, the vast
middle of the bell curve who use Office "because everyone else does." I'm sure they can get by without it.
And is Office 2013 really worth the hundreds of $$$? MS hasn't released pricing info on the upgrade yet, but
Office 2010 Professional went for $350, and there was no discounted upgrade price for Office 2007 users.
Maybe Office 2011 is "good enough." Microsoft has made quite a lot of money shipping software that's
just "good enough."
I can think of two things that might happen if Microsoft doesn't ship Office 2013 for Mac:
1. Apple replaces Office with an equivalent Apple productivity suite
Apple must have been preparing for the day when Microsoft might drop Office for Mac support. And that day
is certainly coming soon. Microsoft could cut off Office for Mac support in an attempt to protect Windows sales if and
when Mac sales reach a tipping point. And Apple must have been waiting for any decent excuse to launch iWork Pro, or
whatever their Office replacement would be called. If Microsoft doesn't ship Office 2013 for Mac, it will be Apple's
cue to replace Office for Mac.
An Apple Office replacement could help Apple in other ways in the long run. For example, if and when Apple transitions
the MacBook Air to ARM-based CPUs, there would be one less third-party software vendor dragging their feet,
slowing down the transition. Apple waited 10 years for Adobe to port their pro apps to OS X. Never again Not
for an OS transition, not for a hardware transition.
Of course, there is a chance that Microsoft could port Office to ARM on their own. If they're serious about Windows RT
on ARM, they just might port Office 2013 to the ARM-based Surface. If they're not serious about ARM, they'll keep it
Surface Pro-only, and thus Intel-only. But you can bet that Apple isn't collectively losing any sleep waiting for Microsoft
to decide what to do.
OK, so let's say that Apple's Office replacement is successful. That it satisfies the majority of Mac ex-Office users.
Then what happens?
2. Microsoft is forced to drop the price of subsequent versions of Office
As we've all seen, Apple's App Store model for iOS and OS X has brought down the cost of software on iDevices
and on Macs. iOS has always been free, and OS X upgrades have gotten cheaper. OS X 10.8 Mountain Lion
will be a $20 upgrade when it is released this month. Most apps on iOS are just a few bucks. And even Mac
apps are far cheaper than they were before the Mac App Store. Apple has conditioned their users to expect
lower software prices.
And Apple is happy to sell OS X and its in-house apps fairly cheaply. Because they make their money on hardware.
The OS and apps are all value-add for the users of their hardware. This particular model is working very, very well for
Apple right now.
Fine. So how does this affect Microsoft? Well, Microsoft has announced that the Windows 8 upgrade will cost $40.
Even for the Pro edition. And how much did the Vista to Windows 7 upgrade cost? Windows 7 Home premium went for $49.
Windows 7 Professional went for $99. That's a pretty steep drop. Microsoft wouldn't do this if they didn't have to. It
certainly looks like Apple's low software pricing has forced Microsoft to lower their prices too.
Unfortunately for Microsoft, they need to make money on their software. Their Windows and Office businesses are their
bread and butter. Profits from those two products fund everything they do. Lowering prices may increase volume, but
that increase in volume may not compensate for the lower per-unit margins. And, once you've dropped your prices,
it's very hard to bring them back up again. Do the words "race to the bottom" ring a bell here?
Conclusion
Microsoft is stuck. They could very well ship Office 2013 for Mac any day now, but by doing so they would be
encouraging the success of a Windows PC competitor. And Mac sales have steadily increased in every quarter of the past
6+ years. The Windows market share is gradually eroding. Microsoft will be forced to stop that erosion in any way
they can, even if it means holding back or canceling Office for Mac. Not a major source of revenue for Microsoft,
but how else can they slow down Mac sales?
If Microsoft doesn't ship Office 2013 for Mac, Apple just might have a replacement ready and waiting. They've
had years to plan, design, develop, test, and iterate. And if Apple's Office replacement is good (and cheap),
Microsoft will lose the Office for Mac market forever.
Meanwhile, for whatever reason, Microsoft has been forced to drop upgrade pricing for Windows 8. The days of
nosebleed upgrade pricing are over. You only drop prices to gain market share if you're a newbie or to regain lost
market share if you need to. Times change.
Just my $0.02.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkrupp
Do we even need an Office 2013 for Mac? I mean how much more can you cram into an already bloated product whose myriad features go unused by the vast majority of human beings using it?
Indeed. On the specific announcement by MS, nothing new here:
"Ladies and gentlemen, may I introduce Microsoft!!!"
The old, monopolistic beast is back in true form. Too bad these are not the 90s anymore.
I agree--it doesn't seem like Apple has any interest in getting Office power users to switch to iWork. I think the market they are trying to tap is the defaulter home users--that is, the people who will use the option that is already installed, or, in the case of iWork, a two-click purchase.
What I am curious about is how many Mac users use iWork vs Google Docs. When I bought my Air, I switched to the latter out of sheer convenience, and while its features are rudimentary, the suite is not so much worse than iWork that I feel the need to switch back.
When you need macros or visual basic in a spreadsheet, your doing something wrong.
Numbers is excellent as it is now,but could use more functions and more flexibility of some functions.
J.
This brings up an interesting dichotomy regarding office suite "power users."
Over the years, I have needed to create or work with rather large presentations. Hi-res images, video, slide object animation (for clarity and/or wow factor), and precise timing. Keynote is much more capable for all these areas than PowerPoint. I mean PPT on Windows; I have never used PPT on OS X.
Attribute it to underlying architecture, OS capability, whatever you want. Keynote keeps everything timed properly, even if it needs to drop a few frames, whereas PowerPoint gives me inconsistent behavior on different devices, and consistently terrible performance.
A tech friend of mine ended up running a live show's multimedia aspects through PowerPoint on his brand new high-end laptop. It struggled to handle the most benign media, including standard definition mp4 video, and would frequently stutter on audio files.
The takeaway? A business office power user needs Word. A presentation giving power user needs Keynote.
I'm surprised in all this discussion there has been no mention of Microsoft's decision to use "activation" in their Mac Office suite.
This is unacceptable to me under any circumstances. I actually purchased a copy of Office 2011 for Mac without reading the fine print (yeah, stupid), and it sits unused on the shelf. (discounted price, no way to return it, grr). I have no problem paying for software I use on a regular basis, whether I'm a fan of the company or not, but my computer is my own private computer and Microsoft has no business knowing what/when/how often/who or anything else about me or my software usage just because I've purchased their software. They can kiss my *ss.
Because I actually purchased the product, I'd be perfectly happy applying some hack to install and use it, but the little searching I did at the time (more than a year ago) revealed nothing of use.
Oh, and Adobe's on my shit list as well, for the same reasons.
Meh.
Microsoft doing the only thing they can to fight the tide of the post-Microsoft era.
Apple is dominating and they are dying.
So what do they do? stop supporting Mac.
the only problem with that is that such a move only deprives them of money and further relegates them to irrelevancy, since more and more people using Macs will no longer have a need for Microsoft.
I myself use iWork.
The (extremely) rare time I actually "need" Office, I fire up OpenOffice or NeoOffice and I am done.
So no stealing MS software. just using high quality, free software that does the same thing.
And MS Word is a joke compared to Pages.
Powerpoint is likewise compared to Keynote.
Perhaps MS just realized they can't compete. In the end, they only hurt themselves.
But is that because they are going to
1. Never bother updating it again.
2. Update it this year
3. Drop the number and keep updating the current edition so you never have to pay for iWork again.
Apples focus is consumers, not businesses. So no, Apple doesn't need to do it, just perhaps someone since Microsoft doesn't seem interested anymore. And someone likely will
What galls me is the folks that think their needs and wants should control what Apple does. And what galls me are the folks that think a program has to be totally overhauled, including UI, every couple of years or it is trash.
Every program of Apple's is being continuously updated even if the UI is not. Most folks. Would say paying once and getting x years of improvements is better than having to pay over and over for what are basically bug fixes.
Fortunately, you don't have to tell Microsoft what's on your computer. When it asks if you want to activate it, you can say 'no' and it will give you a phone number to call. IIRC, they don't ask much (if anything) about the computer - they want the serial number on the Office package and I believe your contact information and that's it. It's a pain in the rear, but it doesn't take that long.
While we're on the subject, why in the world do they need 25 (or is it 30?) characters for a serial number? I hate having to type them all in every time I have to install the software.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaun, UK
I just wish Apple would be more open about what's happening to iWork. Is it dead or are they finally going to release a new version?They've been "vewwy, vewwy quiet" - true......
Quote:
Originally Posted by ash471
I understand that iWork probably can't break into the enterprise market. However, since Apple is making a product, why don't they make it suitable for business. It just seems odd to me that Apple would purposely keep selling an inferior product. It isn't that iWork is a bad product...it is an incomplete product. Why won't Apple finish it off? Give us features like reviewing and compare documents and better paragraph numbering...etc.
They've got 100 billion dollars, why not spend 10 million on office software?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darryn Lowe
Apple gave what most consumers need... simplicity....
iWork isn't aimed at you... it's aimed at everyone else.
DL's comment excerpted and emphasis added:
If you want to share documents, iWork is not aimed at "everyone else," it's aimed solely at other Mac users or those who work entirely alone. Until you can "save as" in .Doc format and not have to create a new copy of an (often poorly) "exported" doc, you're locked in MacLand. And dupe files do not = simplicity.
Just what the computing world needed: three more proprietary file formats that 95% of computer users can't share.
That's been my objection from day one - and it remains so today. I totally prefer Keynote - and don't usually have to share those - but the rest? Fuhgeddaboudit - I need to share my sheets and docs transparently and easily. So Office it is. (And Open Office - nawwwwwww.) Bg biz users (I'm not one) also need collaboration features - and both Google and MS Office Live are leagues ahead in these capacities - although I avoid using either of them whenever possible. Maybe Sky Drive's come together, but once I found I had to save a file before I could create it, I was outta there, and GDocs just feels primitive - and is also no respector of Word formatting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
Fortunately, you don't have to tell Microsoft what's on your computer. When it asks if you want to activate it, you can say 'no' and it will give you a phone number to call. IIRC, they don't ask much (if anything) about the computer - they want the serial number on the Office package and I believe your contact information and that's it. It's a pain in the rear, but it doesn't take that long.
While we're on the subject, why in the world do they need 25 (or is it 30?) characters for a serial number? I hate having to type them all in every time I have to install the software.
Thanks for the reply. Two things:
1) As far as I know you have to call an 800 number, no way around that. So you're forced into giving them your phone number. Not a chance I'm ever going to do that. I guess one could call from a pay phone, if you can even find one anymore!
2) Why on earth would I give them contact information? I bought and paid for their software; it's none of their f#$!@# business who I am or what I do with their software. That's the biggest problem with this "activation" bullshit. If I want customer support, fine, then maybe I need to be in their system, but I don't, I just want to be left alone and not profiled or marketed-to against my will.
*IF* there was a process to "authorize" the software without getting into their damn customer database, I'd be happy to comply. I don't see that option.
Google docs work just fine. So does iWork. I havent done anything that required macros in ages. Apple really should try javascript macros in Numbers. They'd win alot of converts with something like that.
Apple, and in fact the computing world, has to somehow escape the Office jail. Business is addicted to Office.Unless someone breaks this addiction Microsoft will be able to direct the future of mobile computing by limiting the real Office to Windows phones, tablets and computers. Perhaps there is no escape from jail. Eventually, Microsoft will get the OS and hardware right and there will be quite a few Netscapes floating about.
philip