"displacing the local file system that non-technical users have long struggled to comprehend"
Since when do users have trouble comprehending the filesystem? It's a fairly intuitive structure, with "folders" containing "documents", just like a filing cabinet works in real life.
I don't think Apple is giving users enough credit here. There's nothing hard to comprehend about a filesystem. Even my mother, who is about non-technical as can be, understood it with minimal explanation!
I've spent decades training newbies - and supposed non-newbies - on using PC's and Macs. Including PhD's, MD's and other presumably intelligent, edjumatcated folk.....
Files and folders (or directories) were always flying OTTOTH (over the tops of their heads). And Roots and subfolders and drives?? Fuhgeddaboudit. There's a mindset about grokking how computers work that one either has or doesn't - and training won't resolve it for the great majority of those who don't. This is part of why Windows has been a system many engineers, admins and general geeks were never intimidated by - i.e., designed by them for them - and why Apple, being minimally more intuitive and interacting in more conversational language has had an edge for "the rest of us" - where "us" means everybody except Jolt Cola Coders.
I've been working with some friends for many years, and the same damn Q's keep coming up.
They can't learn (or at least remember) shortcut keys. They have no concept of having more than one browser tab or document or window at a time open, but if they have the money they'll go right for the MBP-R (not even knowing anything about the screen) - and then stress it hard - right to its LIMITS! - by watching low res videos and posting on fb. Also, they DO just throw everything on their desktop.
And when they ask you questions by email, chat or over the phone, they have no vocabulary to communicate any specific sense what their problem is.
E.g., it doesn't matter whether they're putting a picture from a device TO facebook, or grabbing an attachment FROM an email - or putting something on a thumb drive to TRANSFER it to another device - they have one word for all three: "uploading." And when stuck, they neither know nor can tell you where they are in a program or the OS to give you clues. I have to constantly get them to start reading what's on their screens to me from the upper left to even get a sense of where they're rat-holed.
And then, when I start to tell them what to do next to back out or move forward, they've already clicked something else I didn't ask them to and are now somewhere else - and they'll do that many times during a remote help session even if I beg them "don't do anything I haven't asked you to."
Nor do they practice safe computing or back up or....
...wait.....
Now I see where Apple's heading..... ...it's the next step in hiding computing from users of computing devices.
...which I'll live with - as long as gearheads are served too and can get at things and organize them for ourselves. Although that Apple iCloud "privacy" policy is some scary stuff as well......
This does not work well with Non-Apple devices. As a result, it is nearly useless to me. I will have to continue to use DropBox as it is a true multiplatform system...
But Dropbox doesn't allow you to save a file opened on your iOS device. That does work now from iOS device to iOS device, sans OSX. Which is coming this month.
While this all sounds nice, and theoretically might be a nice DB replacement, it just doesn't work right now.
The major file app vendors, Readdle and GoodReader, have both attempted to implement iCloud support on their apps, and both have failed. One has pulled the feature, and the other sent me a support request stating "iCloud as implemented does not seem to work very well."
Omni, one of the best developers for the Mac desktop, has similarly given up on attempting to use iCloud to sync for its apps that are not using its own servers (OmniOutliner for example.)
So -- while this all looks pretty, and may work between Macs with 10.8, it does not appear to be functional yet for mobile devices. Perhaps some necessary bits are not there yet until iOS6.
Here's to hoping this all works out in our favor, but the rollout of this has been weak. Don't expect a Dropbox replacement anytime soon. SJ should have paid for them when he met with them, whatever price they wanted.
1. iCloud does not replace iDisk, Dropbox, or anything you might believe it to replace. It's a new paradigm.
2. Dropbox asked a 9 figure. Since Apple didn't buy them maybe Steve thought it was too expensive. Maybe they build iCloud because of that. I don't know. As much as I miss MM Gallery, I understand why Apple didn't buy Dropbox, looking at their implementation of sharing photos. Yeah yeah, came out afterwards.
iCloud files aren't that sandboxed away. From Finder or Terminal, you can navigate to ~/Library/Mobile Documents to see a list of folders corresponding to iCloud-supported apps. For example, com~apple~TextEdit, where inside you'll find all your TextEdit files. You can even put files there manually and they'll show up in TextEdit's iCloud interface. I've actually made use of this with iFiles as a generic cloud storage option between OSX and iOS.
As storage increases time machine backups will automatically go to the cloud.
Great¡ Now instead of having your Mac doing it's backup over USB/FW/SATA2/PCIe or whatever speed we are going to rely on a always-up internet connection with DSL/FO/Coax speed. I don't think people want that.
I've been using Microsoft's SkyDrive cloud solution and I like it a lot. Right now I have my entire Document, Music, Pictures, and Movie folders automatically syncing to the cloud which I can access via iPhone app or any Mac/PC web browser. As far as I can tell, it's vastly superior to iCloud.
Are you able to make changes on your files, no matter what device you are using and seeing those changes on another device? Currently with Apple that only works from iOS device to iOS device, but will come to the lap- and desktop this month.
Are you able to make changes on your files, no matter what device you are using and seeing those changes on another device? Currently with Apple that only works from iOS device to iOS device, but will come to the lap- and desktop this month.
Panic, another excellent long time Mac only developer like Omni, has similar issues wi iCloud bugs preventing integration working as it should.
My own personal speculation is that iWork '12 is being held up by iCloud and further that 10.8 would have been scheduled for WWDC if not for being held up by iWork... Either apple is fervently patching iWork '09 to work on 10.8 right now or they're cutting it very close on finalizing iWork '12. It'll be interesting to see if Apple actually pulls is all together in time for a July launch.
I don't think Apple is giving users enough credit here. There's nothing hard to comprehend about a filesystem. Even my mother, who is about non-technical as can be, understood it with minimal explanation!
Even if folks can understand it, many don't want to be bothered with it. They have a computer to do things, not create folders etc.
That is not what the article says: "The system handles the duplication and local saving of that file, and Pages can begin working on it just as if iCloud never existed. The original document remains in iCloud, tied to TextEdit. Pages (or any other app) can work on its copy, and save it to the file system just as always." (bold added)
If I save it, or slightly edit it, how do I know when I come back which is the most recent. Worse yet, what if I forget I worked on it in the other app and start making edits to it in the original application. Now I have two files with different edits.
This copying behavior is one of the biggest problematic issues with this approach. In order to open it with another application, there is a copy made of the file that the other application can work on. Thus, there are two files, one associated with each application.
Yes it does.
The system duplicates the contents into another application, i.e., in this example, from TextEdit to Pages. At that point, the 'Pages' version is an entirely new file, with all the features that Pages allows. When you save the new Pages document, the file name will contain the Pages extension. If you are worried that you can't remember which file is most 'current', view the 'modified' date.
If you, as you say, "work on its copy" when you open it in Pages, it is now a Pages document. you can't save is as a TextEdit file. You can though, export it as such.
When you close the new Pages file, it will ask you if you want to save it. If you do, it will save it with the same name if you choose, but with the .pages extension.
Remember also, that you have a choice where you want to save the document.
My own personal speculation is that iWork '12 is being held up by iCloud and further that 10.8 would have been scheduled for WWDC if not for being held up by iWork...
I disagree. While it does run incredibly well most of the time, there are more than a few bugs in the 10.8 GM that I feel should be fixed before launch. I think the timeframe is as they always intended it.
A question and please forgive me if this has already been discussed but I already use iCloud with my iPhone and iPad and look forward to sharing docs with my Mac. But once installed is there any easy way to bulk copy files to iCloud without opening each individual document in an app and then saving the document to iCloud within the app? I see this as a big issue with me. For example I bet I have a 100 pdf's I'd love to get out on iCloud. Do I have to go into Preview and save each individual file? If so, this is going to be a real pain. I don't mind working within the model setup from now on, but I'm just thinking about how to get all my files initially over to iCloud. Thanks
I disagree. While it does run incredibly well most of the time, there are more than a few bugs in the 10.8 GM that I feel should be fixed before launch. I think the timeframe is as they always intended it.
I only put DP3/4 on a test machine out of curiosity mostly and just started running GM in production last week so I can't really speak to the stability of any of it with authority. It's has been stable for me once I sorted out the changes to XCode/X11 which wasn't made easier by my deciding at the same moment to switch from macports to homebrew which is how I install mant of the development tools I ACUTALLY use... I digress.
The issues I have seen are all around iCloud, so I do still feel that iCloud is ultimately responsible for most of the blockers to 10.8 releasing, whether that is also because of iWork needing to be iCloud enabled or not, is again just wild speculation on my part but seems reasonable to me.
The system duplicates the contents into another application, i.e., in this example, from TextEdit to Pages. At that point, the 'Pages' version is an entirely new file, with all the features that Pages allows. When you save the new Pages document, the file name will contain the Pages extension. If you are worried that you can't remember which file is most 'current', view the 'modified' date.
If you, as you say, "work on its copy" when you open it in Pages, it is now a Pages document. you can't save is as a TextEdit file. You can though, export it as such.
When you close the new Pages file, it will ask you if you want to save it. If you do, it will save it with the same name if you choose, but with the .pages extension.
Remember also, that you have a choice where you want to save the document.
That covers the case when you switch to a new file format, but you are still left with an extra copy that could easily be used later having forgotten about the other file. Why should that extra file be left there? What happens if I open it another text editor with more features? They would have the same name by default.
What about if you are editing a .jpg and then save it as a .jpg. As per your description, the default will be to save it with the same name, but associates it with the new program. At this point, there will be two duplicate files, only able to be differentiated by the changes made and the modification date, neither of which are readily apparent in a spotlight search, which is the only way to search for all iCloud files. The default search view does not contain modification date so they will see two files with similar content and no obvious way to discern which one they should use.
My point with this is that novice users are going to get confused with this setup as much or more than with a file system. I like that they are trying, but the method will cause many issues as the number of documents fills up their iCloud. They will then be forced to use Spotlight, but, without knowing all the tricks to actually make it work, will be left with a long list of files that is no different than what they have on their desktop, as many posters on this thread have said about the users.
A question and please forgive me if this has already been discussed but I already use iCloud with my iPhone and iPad and look forward to sharing docs with my Mac. But once installed is there any easy way to bulk copy files to iCloud without opening each individual document in an app and then saving the document to iCloud within the app? I see this as a big issue with me. For example I bet I have a 100 pdf's I'd love to get out on iCloud. Do I have to go into Preview and save each individual file? If so, this is going to be a real pain. I don't mind working within the model setup from now on, but I'm just thinking about how to get all my files initially over to iCloud. Thanks
I wanted to do a followup to my question with a solution I found to mass copy files to iCloud. Just go to iCloud.com in Safari and then go to iWork. You can then highlight multiple files in Finder and drag them over to iCloud in Safari. Seems to work fine. Problem solved if there is no other way to do it within ML itself.
iCloud mail metadata syncing has also improved in ML. Previously when a new message arrived you would get a red "1" badge on all your devices, and if you then read the message on (e.g.) your iPad, the badge would remain on your Mac. No more, if you read the message on any iDevice that fact is instantly propagated to the Mac and the badge disappears from the Dock.
iCloud mail metadata syncing has also improved in ML. Previously when a new message arrived you would get a red "1" badge on all your devices, and if you then read the message on (e.g.) your iPad, the badge would remain on your Mac. No more, if you read the message on any iDevice that fact is instantly propagated to the Mac and the badge disappears from the Dock.
Did they fix that bug? Wow, finally! Really strange that it took them 100B push notifications and now finally realize they ought to have a pull mechanism in place as well. Do hope this won't be limited to Mail.ipa but be iOS system-wide, i.e. all notifications get updated on all your devices, OSX included.
Did they fix that bug? Wow, finally! Really strange that it took them 100B push notifications and now finally realize they ought to have a pull mechanism in place as well. Do hope this won't be limited to Mail.ipa but be iOS system-wide, i.e. all notifications get updated on all your devices, OSX included.
I agree, it took them a long time to fix. iOS 6 is not required, my iPad is still running iOS 5, but my Mac is running ML GM. And yet the Mac Dock reflects instantly when a message is read on the iPad. So maybe it is not the OS on the iPad that is broadcasting the change, but the mail server itself. In which case it may only be fixed for iCloud (my email service) and not all mail services and/or clients.
I wanted to do a followup to my question with a solution I found to mass copy files to iCloud. Just go to iCloud.com in Safari and then go to iWork. You can then highlight multiple files in Finder and drag them over to iCloud in Safari. Seems to work fine. Problem solved if there is no other way to do it within ML itself.
Still seems like a clunky workaround rather than a true solution, lacking the drag-and-drop ease of file management with which Apple originally earned its reputation. I understand and welcome the security benefits of app sandboxing, but it really seems like Apple could have found a way to have the OS sync documents to the cloud, and restrict document access to only the creating application, in the background without visibly hiding the docs in the Finder.
If they're truly taking the iTunes approach to having the OS manage the documents like iTunes manages the music, perhaps they should truly rework the Finder to work (not just look) more like iTunes. The left pane of the "iFinder" could feature each application (which users could arrange in whatever order they'd like) that, when clicked on, would show all the documents for that application. With "Get Info," users could bring up an iTunes-styled information window where they could enter all sorts of metadata about each file. Users could create "doclists" and "smart doclists" in much the same way they create playlists and smart playlists now by dragging and dropping docs to the lists or, utilizing the Get Doc(s) Info window.
I agree that most users either keep their documents well organized or they don't (most don't), and that most users (even those that are well organized) shouldn't be burdened with file management. I'm not crazy about Apple's iCloud solution though. The transition path they seem to have laid out, particularly for long-time users (i.e., those with lots of existing files), isn't very intuitive or encouraging.
What does that mean for OSX in the enterprise in a mixed environment? For example, I work on large proposals. There are word docs, PDFs, excel sheets, images (of multiple types). There are multiple contributors, revisions and versions, etc. Right now I can have proposal specific folders, open it up and find what I want. (Not perfect, but quick. Yes I know stuff like SharePoint is out there for managed team collaboration, but I'm talking here of my personal local workflow as a contributor to such systems.)
The only way I could see making this work is if I establish and enforce a naming convention for ALL files associated with a proposal. From experience this is not easy to do when working with an extended team of contributors. (Since most are not on macs, much of this doesn't apply to them anyway, but I'm concerned here with only my workflow.) More importantly, I don't have to implement or worry about enforced naming conventions in order to find my files right now.
Perhaps I'm a bit dense, but this works for a handful of documents best. If you are running a business, or on projects that have dozens of different documents from many different apps, it seems like a nightmare.
So I guess this iCloud thing doesn't really mean much for me in this context? I'll just need to keep everything in a local files system and continue with Dropbox or such?
Agreed. But it is sadly true. I die a little inside every time I see a user who has no clue at all whatsoever how the file system is arranged. It's depressingly common on both the Mac and PC sides.
I wonder if novices and casual users had that much difficulty with the Finder and the file dialogs (the userface of the file system) in the Mac OS 6 era. Those days it was "the system folder is sacred. Other than that, do whatever you want."
I remember how much freedom we had. I, for example, organized my things inside, say, "workplace folders": my word processing folder would contain both my text editing apps and my documents' folder organization, the same happened with my image editing folder, etc. Others would, say, put all apps inside a folder and have their document folders around. It was fairly simple.
Today it is "careful with OS X side's folder organization, with your user account floating some levels deep down. At that, careful with your user account's folder organization, which mostly doesn't work as you'd expect, really. And put all your apps inside the app folder or else, more or less, and you better don't try to tidy them up inside subfolders, as updates could break." OS X made us approach Windows' level of complexity.
Also, isn't it a bit cheeky that Apple bemoans user confusion when they no longer care for doing even the tiniest amount of handholding? No manuals, no interactive courses, no videos, at all (and an abysmal help system). When you buy your first Mac, it is implicit that you aIready know how to use it, which is absurd. I remember this little interactive Finder course disk I got when I bought my Mac Classic. It helped, lots.
I'm not that much of a greybeard, meaning I wouldn't want to go back to the pre-OS X days, but OS X mightily complicated things, Finder-wise, and I don't think iOS' ways really will solve it: they don't scale terribly well as user's needs grow, so Apple'll eventually have to introduce some way of grouping, be it playlists, folders, whatever.
Will it bringing document sync'ing to Windows 7 (and beyond) also? The Windows iCloud Control Panel allows syncing of 'Photo Stream' (as well as calendar items, mail, etc), but no docs. Just curious if this will bridge the document sync gap as well?
That covers the case when you switch to a new file format, but you are still left with an extra copy that could easily be used later having forgotten about the other file. Why should that extra file be left there? What happens if I open it another text editor with more features? They would have the same name by default.
What about if you are editing a .jpg and then save it as a .jpg. As per your description, the default will be to save it with the same name, but associates it with the new program. At this point, there will be two duplicate files, only able to be differentiated by the changes made and the modification date, neither of which are readily apparent in a spotlight search, which is the only way to search for all iCloud files. The default search view does not contain modification date so they will see two files with similar content and no obvious way to discern which one they should use.
My point with this is that novice users are going to get confused with this setup as much or more than with a file system. I like that they are trying, but the method will cause many issues as the number of documents fills up their iCloud. They will then be forced to use Spotlight, but, without knowing all the tricks to actually make it work, will be left with a long list of files that is no different than what they have on their desktop, as many posters on this thread have said about the users.
You have to be kidding?
The name may be the same, (sans extension) but it is not a duplicate file.
The default search view? Make your own, i.e., Add modification date view or any of the other metadata attributes that Spotlight tracks.
If folks are going to have issues finding documents in their iCloud account, it won't be anymore than they experience now on the local setup.
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by zorinlynx
"displacing the local file system that non-technical users have long struggled to comprehend"
Since when do users have trouble comprehending the filesystem? It's a fairly intuitive structure, with "folders" containing "documents", just like a filing cabinet works in real life.
I don't think Apple is giving users enough credit here. There's nothing hard to comprehend about a filesystem. Even my mother, who is about non-technical as can be, understood it with minimal explanation!
I've spent decades training newbies - and supposed non-newbies - on using PC's and Macs. Including PhD's, MD's and other presumably intelligent, edjumatcated folk.....
Files and folders (or directories) were always flying OTTOTH (over the tops of their heads). And Roots and subfolders and drives?? Fuhgeddaboudit. There's a mindset about grokking how computers work that one either has or doesn't - and training won't resolve it for the great majority of those who don't. This is part of why Windows has been a system many engineers, admins and general geeks were never intimidated by - i.e., designed by them for them - and why Apple, being minimally more intuitive and interacting in more conversational language has had an edge for "the rest of us" - where "us" means everybody except Jolt Cola Coders.
I've been working with some friends for many years, and the same damn Q's keep coming up.
They can't learn (or at least remember) shortcut keys. They have no concept of having more than one browser tab or document or window at a time open, but if they have the money they'll go right for the MBP-R (not even knowing anything about the screen) - and then stress it hard - right to its LIMITS! - by watching low res videos and posting on fb. Also, they DO just throw everything on their desktop.
And when they ask you questions by email, chat or over the phone, they have no vocabulary to communicate any specific sense what their problem is.
E.g., it doesn't matter whether they're putting a picture from a device TO facebook, or grabbing an attachment FROM an email - or putting something on a thumb drive to TRANSFER it to another device - they have one word for all three: "uploading." And when stuck, they neither know nor can tell you where they are in a program or the OS to give you clues. I have to constantly get them to start reading what's on their screens to me from the upper left to even get a sense of where they're rat-holed.
And then, when I start to tell them what to do next to back out or move forward, they've already clicked something else I didn't ask them to and are now somewhere else - and they'll do that many times during a remote help session even if I beg them "don't do anything I haven't asked you to."
Nor do they practice safe computing or back up or....
...wait.....
Now I see where Apple's heading..... ...it's the next step in hiding computing from users of computing devices.
...which I'll live with - as long as gearheads are served too and can get at things and organize them for ourselves. Although that Apple iCloud "privacy" policy is some scary stuff as well......
But Dropbox doesn't allow you to save a file opened on your iOS device. That does work now from iOS device to iOS device, sans OSX. Which is coming this month.
1. iCloud does not replace iDisk, Dropbox, or anything you might believe it to replace. It's a new paradigm.
2. Dropbox asked a 9 figure. Since Apple didn't buy them maybe Steve thought it was too expensive. Maybe they build iCloud because of that. I don't know. As much as I miss MM Gallery, I understand why Apple didn't buy Dropbox, looking at their implementation of sharing photos. Yeah yeah, came out afterwards.
Thanks for the link!
Great¡ Now instead of having your Mac doing it's backup over USB/FW/SATA2/PCIe or whatever speed we are going to rely on a always-up internet connection with DSL/FO/Coax speed. I don't think people want that.
Excellent comment! That is my main gripe with the optional 'Documents In The Cloud' How the frik do I back this up? How do I take it off-site?
Are you able to make changes on your files, no matter what device you are using and seeing those changes on another device? Currently with Apple that only works from iOS device to iOS device, but will come to the lap- and desktop this month.
Yes. SkyDrive is completely cross platform between Windows, Mac, Windows Phone, iOS, and Android.
https://apps.live.com/skydrive
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilBoogie
Are you able to make changes on your files, no matter what device you are using and seeing those changes on another device? Currently with Apple that only works from iOS device to iOS device, but will come to the lap- and desktop this month.
My own personal speculation is that iWork '12 is being held up by iCloud and further that 10.8 would have been scheduled for WWDC if not for being held up by iWork... Either apple is fervently patching iWork '09 to work on 10.8 right now or they're cutting it very close on finalizing iWork '12. It'll be interesting to see if Apple actually pulls is all together in time for a July launch.
Even if folks can understand it, many don't want to be bothered with it. They have a computer to do things, not create folders etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quevar
That is not what the article says: "The system handles the duplication and local saving of that file, and Pages can begin working on it just as if iCloud never existed. The original document remains in iCloud, tied to TextEdit. Pages (or any other app) can work on its copy, and save it to the file system just as always." (bold added)
If I save it, or slightly edit it, how do I know when I come back which is the most recent. Worse yet, what if I forget I worked on it in the other app and start making edits to it in the original application. Now I have two files with different edits.
This copying behavior is one of the biggest problematic issues with this approach. In order to open it with another application, there is a copy made of the file that the other application can work on. Thus, there are two files, one associated with each application.
Yes it does.
The system duplicates the contents into another application, i.e., in this example, from TextEdit to Pages. At that point, the 'Pages' version is an entirely new file, with all the features that Pages allows. When you save the new Pages document, the file name will contain the Pages extension. If you are worried that you can't remember which file is most 'current', view the 'modified' date.
If you, as you say, "work on its copy" when you open it in Pages, it is now a Pages document. you can't save is as a TextEdit file. You can though, export it as such.
When you close the new Pages file, it will ask you if you want to save it. If you do, it will save it with the same name if you choose, but with the .pages extension.
Remember also, that you have a choice where you want to save the document.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jb510
My own personal speculation is that iWork '12 is being held up by iCloud and further that 10.8 would have been scheduled for WWDC if not for being held up by iWork...
I disagree. While it does run incredibly well most of the time, there are more than a few bugs in the 10.8 GM that I feel should be fixed before launch. I think the timeframe is as they always intended it.
A question and please forgive me if this has already been discussed but I already use iCloud with my iPhone and iPad and look forward to sharing docs with my Mac. But once installed is there any easy way to bulk copy files to iCloud without opening each individual document in an app and then saving the document to iCloud within the app? I see this as a big issue with me. For example I bet I have a 100 pdf's I'd love to get out on iCloud. Do I have to go into Preview and save each individual file? If so, this is going to be a real pain. I don't mind working within the model setup from now on, but I'm just thinking about how to get all my files initially over to iCloud. Thanks
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
I disagree. While it does run incredibly well most of the time, there are more than a few bugs in the 10.8 GM that I feel should be fixed before launch. I think the timeframe is as they always intended it.
I only put DP3/4 on a test machine out of curiosity mostly and just started running GM in production last week so I can't really speak to the stability of any of it with authority. It's has been stable for me once I sorted out the changes to XCode/X11 which wasn't made easier by my deciding at the same moment to switch from macports to homebrew which is how I install mant of the development tools I ACUTALLY use... I digress.
The issues I have seen are all around iCloud, so I do still feel that iCloud is ultimately responsible for most of the blockers to 10.8 releasing, whether that is also because of iWork needing to be iCloud enabled or not, is again just wild speculation on my part but seems reasonable to me.
So do all documents on iCloud show up in search or just those created by built-in apps (like in iOS)?
That covers the case when you switch to a new file format, but you are still left with an extra copy that could easily be used later having forgotten about the other file. Why should that extra file be left there? What happens if I open it another text editor with more features? They would have the same name by default.
What about if you are editing a .jpg and then save it as a .jpg. As per your description, the default will be to save it with the same name, but associates it with the new program. At this point, there will be two duplicate files, only able to be differentiated by the changes made and the modification date, neither of which are readily apparent in a spotlight search, which is the only way to search for all iCloud files. The default search view does not contain modification date so they will see two files with similar content and no obvious way to discern which one they should use.
My point with this is that novice users are going to get confused with this setup as much or more than with a file system. I like that they are trying, but the method will cause many issues as the number of documents fills up their iCloud. They will then be forced to use Spotlight, but, without knowing all the tricks to actually make it work, will be left with a long list of files that is no different than what they have on their desktop, as many posters on this thread have said about the users.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfpackfan
A question and please forgive me if this has already been discussed but I already use iCloud with my iPhone and iPad and look forward to sharing docs with my Mac. But once installed is there any easy way to bulk copy files to iCloud without opening each individual document in an app and then saving the document to iCloud within the app? I see this as a big issue with me. For example I bet I have a 100 pdf's I'd love to get out on iCloud. Do I have to go into Preview and save each individual file? If so, this is going to be a real pain. I don't mind working within the model setup from now on, but I'm just thinking about how to get all my files initially over to iCloud. Thanks
I wanted to do a followup to my question with a solution I found to mass copy files to iCloud. Just go to iCloud.com in Safari and then go to iWork. You can then highlight multiple files in Finder and drag them over to iCloud in Safari. Seems to work fine. Problem solved if there is no other way to do it within ML itself.
iCloud mail metadata syncing has also improved in ML. Previously when a new message arrived you would get a red "1" badge on all your devices, and if you then read the message on (e.g.) your iPad, the badge would remain on your Mac. No more, if you read the message on any iDevice that fact is instantly propagated to the Mac and the badge disappears from the Dock.
Did they fix that bug? Wow, finally! Really strange that it took them 100B push notifications and now finally realize they ought to have a pull mechanism in place as well. Do hope this won't be limited to Mail.ipa but be iOS system-wide, i.e. all notifications get updated on all your devices, OSX included.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilBoogie
Did they fix that bug? Wow, finally! Really strange that it took them 100B push notifications and now finally realize they ought to have a pull mechanism in place as well. Do hope this won't be limited to Mail.ipa but be iOS system-wide, i.e. all notifications get updated on all your devices, OSX included.
I agree, it took them a long time to fix. iOS 6 is not required, my iPad is still running iOS 5, but my Mac is running ML GM. And yet the Mac Dock reflects instantly when a message is read on the iPad. So maybe it is not the OS on the iPad that is broadcasting the change, but the mail server itself. In which case it may only be fixed for iCloud (my email service) and not all mail services and/or clients.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfpackfan
I wanted to do a followup to my question with a solution I found to mass copy files to iCloud. Just go to iCloud.com in Safari and then go to iWork. You can then highlight multiple files in Finder and drag them over to iCloud in Safari. Seems to work fine. Problem solved if there is no other way to do it within ML itself.
Still seems like a clunky workaround rather than a true solution, lacking the drag-and-drop ease of file management with which Apple originally earned its reputation. I understand and welcome the security benefits of app sandboxing, but it really seems like Apple could have found a way to have the OS sync documents to the cloud, and restrict document access to only the creating application, in the background without visibly hiding the docs in the Finder.
If they're truly taking the iTunes approach to having the OS manage the documents like iTunes manages the music, perhaps they should truly rework the Finder to work (not just look) more like iTunes. The left pane of the "iFinder" could feature each application (which users could arrange in whatever order they'd like) that, when clicked on, would show all the documents for that application. With "Get Info," users could bring up an iTunes-styled information window where they could enter all sorts of metadata about each file. Users could create "doclists" and "smart doclists" in much the same way they create playlists and smart playlists now by dragging and dropping docs to the lists or, utilizing the Get Doc(s) Info window.
I agree that most users either keep their documents well organized or they don't (most don't), and that most users (even those that are well organized) shouldn't be burdened with file management. I'm not crazy about Apple's iCloud solution though. The transition path they seem to have laid out, particularly for long-time users (i.e., those with lots of existing files), isn't very intuitive or encouraging.
The only way I could see making this work is if I establish and enforce a naming convention for ALL files associated with a proposal. From experience this is not easy to do when working with an extended team of contributors. (Since most are not on macs, much of this doesn't apply to them anyway, but I'm concerned here with only my workflow.) More importantly, I don't have to implement or worry about enforced naming conventions in order to find my files right now.
Perhaps I'm a bit dense, but this works for a handful of documents best. If you are running a business, or on projects that have dozens of different documents from many different apps, it seems like a nightmare.
So I guess this iCloud thing doesn't really mean much for me in this context? I'll just need to keep everything in a local files system and continue with Dropbox or such?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluefish86
Agreed. But it is sadly true. I die a little inside every time I see a user who has no clue at all whatsoever how the file system is arranged. It's depressingly common on both the Mac and PC sides.
I wonder if novices and casual users had that much difficulty with the Finder and the file dialogs (the userface of the file system) in the Mac OS 6 era. Those days it was "the system folder is sacred. Other than that, do whatever you want."
I remember how much freedom we had. I, for example, organized my things inside, say, "workplace folders": my word processing folder would contain both my text editing apps and my documents' folder organization, the same happened with my image editing folder, etc. Others would, say, put all apps inside a folder and have their document folders around. It was fairly simple.
Today it is "careful with OS X side's folder organization, with your user account floating some levels deep down. At that, careful with your user account's folder organization, which mostly doesn't work as you'd expect, really. And put all your apps inside the app folder or else, more or less, and you better don't try to tidy them up inside subfolders, as updates could break." OS X made us approach Windows' level of complexity.
Also, isn't it a bit cheeky that Apple bemoans user confusion when they no longer care for doing even the tiniest amount of handholding? No manuals, no interactive courses, no videos, at all (and an abysmal help system). When you buy your first Mac, it is implicit that you aIready know how to use it, which is absurd. I remember this little interactive Finder course disk I got when I bought my Mac Classic. It helped, lots.
I'm not that much of a greybeard, meaning I wouldn't want to go back to the pre-OS X days, but OS X mightily complicated things, Finder-wise, and I don't think iOS' ways really will solve it: they don't scale terribly well as user's needs grow, so Apple'll eventually have to introduce some way of grouping, be it playlists, folders, whatever.
Will it bringing document sync'ing to Windows 7 (and beyond) also? The Windows iCloud Control Panel allows syncing of 'Photo Stream' (as well as calendar items, mail, etc), but no docs. Just curious if this will bridge the document sync gap as well?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quevar
That covers the case when you switch to a new file format, but you are still left with an extra copy that could easily be used later having forgotten about the other file. Why should that extra file be left there? What happens if I open it another text editor with more features? They would have the same name by default.
What about if you are editing a .jpg and then save it as a .jpg. As per your description, the default will be to save it with the same name, but associates it with the new program. At this point, there will be two duplicate files, only able to be differentiated by the changes made and the modification date, neither of which are readily apparent in a spotlight search, which is the only way to search for all iCloud files. The default search view does not contain modification date so they will see two files with similar content and no obvious way to discern which one they should use.
My point with this is that novice users are going to get confused with this setup as much or more than with a file system. I like that they are trying, but the method will cause many issues as the number of documents fills up their iCloud. They will then be forced to use Spotlight, but, without knowing all the tricks to actually make it work, will be left with a long list of files that is no different than what they have on their desktop, as many posters on this thread have said about the users.
You have to be kidding?
The name may be the same, (sans extension) but it is not a duplicate file.
The default search view? Make your own, i.e., Add modification date view or any of the other metadata attributes that Spotlight tracks.
If folks are going to have issues finding documents in their iCloud account, it won't be anymore than they experience now on the local setup.