I just saw the Daniel Pearl video...

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  • Reply 41 of 55
    jakkorzjakkorz Posts: 84member
    [quote]Originally posted by NoahJ:



    I would start the thread, but I do not think that many would be interested in me starting another religious thread right now. I anyone disagress with this then I would be more than happy to oblige, or you could do this as well.



    Lets just say that he makes a very strong case for his points, and that in light of recent events I am n=more inclined to believe that radical islam is not the peaceful religion that it is made out to be in the media. That is not to say that Muslims are evil people, just like Germans were not evil, but the radical Muslems that practice Islam as it is written in the Koran and the Kadish(?) or in the case of Germans that were Nazis there is an obvious disconnect there.



    <hr></blockquote>



    Thanks for the reply, and I would suggest that we leave that idea of a new thread behind, because of the amount of flame this will raise. Personally, I had a thread removed, for no obvious reasons and not even too many replies.



    Regarding Mr. Mordecai and your thoughts above:

    It is good that you mentioned that "radical islam" is not a peaceful religion. Let me clarify this point so we would understand where each of us stands on that.



    Let me first start by saying that Islam is a monotheistic religion which believes in the GOD (if there are more than one as Mr. Mordecai has claimed) of Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, ... and all the way down to Jesus and beyond. Muslims believe in one and only one undisputed writing in Arabic which no one, as many have tried, as of yet have replicated a verse out of, and that book is called the Quran (mind the spelling). Imitation of such writings are impossible, according to my Arabic muslim friends accounts, that all Arabic transcripts are verified are identical down to the vowels in the words. Radicals, Sunnis, Shi-at, and many other sects in Islam differ on the interpretation of the Quran, not the authenticity of it. So if there are peaceful (or not evil as you have called them) muslims, as opposed to not peaceful "radical muslims", that means that each has interpreted the book in their own way, be it peacefully rightful or viciously wrong. If those radicals take words out of context, place, event, situation, and atmosphere at which those words were revealed, why Islam and the Quran should be held accountable?

    Regarding what the muslims call "Allah". My understanding is that "Allah" is one of 99 other names which describe GOD's traits, e.g. The most Strong, The most Great, The most Merciful, etc. None of which names is "Satan", or "Devil". You should firmly understand that "radical muslims" practice what they interpret to be true, while "not evil muslims" practice what they feel to be true.



    What is the Kaddish by the way?



    Mr. Mordecai's case is weak, only the audience's lack of knowledge, and their amazing readiness (which I envy to a certain extent) to absorb all that is said to them, that makes his arguments strong. He is a translator as I understand, how could he possibly translate "men el kuwait le adammam" in one of his journals to mean something related to blood? Ask any American service person who served in the Gulf about the meaning of "Damam" and they should be able to tell you what it means clearly. People like you have a good heart, maybe this is why you trust every single thing he says. Look around the web, there are tons of sites that would feed your curiosity with such information about Islam [however misleading it might be to me].



    [quote]

    That is no necessarily true. The muslim holy texts have very strong statements about those who do not follow their religion in this world, not in the afterlife. Some point to Christianity and say, well that is a very intolerant religion that calls for the death of those that don't follow it, but it is quite different with fundamentalist Islam.



    I will quote another article I have read recently that sums up what I mean.

    <hr></blockquote>



    It is only one text, muslims don't like the plural notion because they believe it is very consistent piece of text and does not contradict its self as opposed to texts written by different authors.



    Quran have mentioned that the unbeliever will be punished, but Quran also mentions that there are those who will be forgiven and that forgiveness can not be challenged because it is granted by GOD.



    Regarding the article:



    First and foremost, always keep in mind that each side [of the middle eastern conflict] is trying to get your attention and have you on their side of the conflict. If it was not for the GB, and US, Israel would have never declared independence. Now they feel that they are threatened, so they will seek to rally all that they can to stand on their side. Some do it the right way, others [in this case: Israel Daily] do it through propaganda. Each has their audience in sight.



    With the above stated and practiced, note that they try to persuade you to be on their side by the way of fear and attacking your believes using muslim believes. Never over look words in any article you read. Just like both sides of the conflict are fighting over few percents of land in a peace deal, you should be fighting over which words are right and which are wrong in place, context, meaning, implication, and future consequences. Now here is the deal, I quote the Bible then I tell you what I understand, and you tell me if my understanding is wrong and a propaganda fed though. Here it is:



    "In the same day the Eternal made a covenant with Abraham, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrate." [Genesis 15:18]



    It is well known that the covenant is in Isaac's lineage according to the Bible. Then it would follow that the Bible has granted Isaac and his decedents the Lands Between the Nile and the Euphrate. What do you say about that and do you think that this is what Israel Daily is after?



    While the Arab-Israeli conflict pits Moslems against Jews, it concerns Christians as well, because ultimately, it is a conflict over revelation ? the revelation of the Bible and that of the Koran. By opposing the Jewish presence in the Land of Israel, the Moslems effectively reject the Divine promises of the Jewish ? and Christian ? Bible, and replace them with another, diametrically opposed doctrine ? the Koran.



    Do tell me, I beg you, have you ever read a muslim authenticated translation of the Quran from cover to cover and absorbed what it say and found that it oppose the Bible diametrically? Or have you left that to others to pursue because you trust their opinion. Obviously, it is the latter that you have practiced, since you quote those who quote the Quran rather than quoting the Quran directly, because you are a good hearted person.



    The Moslem Palestinians have tried to make allies of the powerful Christian Churches, to win international support for their aspirations to statehood. But history shows that the Moslems, when in power, have not been sympathetic at all to Christians. For instance, one of the most popular figures in Arab folklore is Saladin, the Moslem-Arab warrior who defeated the Crusaders in the Holy Land.



    Saladin also did kill thousands upon thousands of muslims in Egypt the moment he took over there. Little known fact to even most of the muslims, yet it is documented and well known among the villagers in Egypt who are there actually fleeing from Saladin's atrocities. What do you say to that? Well, do not go so far, Saddam has killed nothing but muslims. Is he to be a good Christian or would you think that he is fulfilling the will of GOD against the disbelievers?



    The Koran itself warns Moslems, ?Do not take Jews or Christians as your friends.? During the Arab conquests, Jews and Christians alike were massacred, and synagogues and churches destroyed. A Moslem phrase often quoted in this region is: ?On Saturday we kill the Jews and on Sunday we kill the Christians!?



    With eloquence of Arabic ( an eloquence only matched by Hebrew, Roman, and Greek languages) taken into account and the transliteration (as opposed to translation) of ?Do not take Jews or Christians as your friends.?, I tell you, and I am full of confidence due to the number of arguments I have raised regarding this phrase with the muslims until I got the true answer, it is a false translation. That phrase quoted would better be translated as the following: "Do not consider the Jews and Christians as your guardians". Guardians here used to denote that who would be leaned on in situations of hardship. That is to say, if you [muslims] are suffering of hardship, then you [muslims] should help each other rather than depending on the Jews and the Christians to help you out.



    Quran is too eloquent to be attacked in such a way.



    Regarding Jews being massacred, just like the Christians were; why do you think the Jews want their own State other than running from those Christians who massacred them for centuries in Europe?

    Regarding the Christians massacres. History is full of massacres and atrocities of fellow human against another fellow human. Almost all massacres are in one way or another justified at the time with false religious believes. Later on, it turns out that religion has nothing to do with it. Which brings me to the issue of christian cults, and christian fed genocide in african Rwanda. Both of us know, believe, affirm, and confident that Christianity is in no way can be associated with such massacres.



    That quote about Saturdays and Sundays I am not familiar of and it has nothing to do with Quran [if you remember Mr. Mordecai's newsletter he actually claimed it was in the Quran while here it says that it is a regional quote].



    Now if Christians and Jews are to be forced to become muslims, why do you think there are Churchs and Syngoges through out the muslim's countries? (save a couple of course)

    If such action were to be implemented and promoted by Muslims, then the Church of Nativity should be down to rubbles long ago, don't you agree? Have you visited Syria? Jordan? Egypt? Iraq? Kuwait? They all have churches, but not all have synagogues.



    This theology enables us to understand the roots of the Arab-Israeli conflict, and should warn the Christian West about what power lies behind the attempts to divide the Land of Israel. This does not mean that Moslems are evil; but Christians should be aware that they are under a deceiving, evil influence and power ? that of Islam. Therefore, Islam as a power must be resisted.



    It looks like the Christian community have got their thoughts very well influenced by that silly "not the people, but the doctrine" idea. Well, dare the world to force 1,000,000,000 muslims convert or abandon their holy text? You just said that they are not evil! Yet, their holy text is! But they all have the same holy text! Furthermore, they all believe in that same holy text! The holy text represents the religion and not the people, so it follows that interpretation must differ, therefore.

    So what do you suggest here Noah? Do you understand the implication of your repeated attack on Islam, which is represented by Quran, which is the indisputable holy text of 1,000,000,000 individuals.



    [quote]

    Turning the other cheek does not mean allowing innocents to be slaughtered by zealots. I am not asking for someone to gie me a gun so I can go and kill "dirty Arabs" or something. However, Muslims live in this world and are under the law of this world and should be held accountable just as you and I are accountable. If you have read my other threads you will know that I do not call for me to be the instrument of God's vengence. Not once. But there is nothing wrong with wanting those guilty to pay for what they have done wrong. Nothing at all.

    <hr></blockquote>



    Turning the other cheek does not mean allowing innocents to be slaughtered by zealots, yet Jesus Christ was crucified without showing any resistance. He should be your role model in that particular act.

    Asking for a gun to kill "dirty Arabs", granted you are not.

    Rallying for the killing of the innocent, however, even by our human made and practiced laws will hold you as accountable. Your support for any side of the conflict, which indisputably has innocents involved on both sides, is enough to hold you accountable dear.



    Not only does the hand fight evil. So does the mouth by saying words of truth, and the heart for not supporting but the truth. Please read the above christian individual's related, and practiced massacre. I find google to be an unbiased tool to search references on the topic.



    I would just like to close with this sentence: What started this whole discussion between the two of us is the mere fact that you keep insisting on labeling "Islam" as a not peaceful religion and accusing what defines Islam, Quran, are vicious teachings. Have you changed your mind about those claims, or do you insist on supporting them?



    ---

    None so far in the American government have admitted that this is what they firmly believe, that Quran is the source of all evil. But they will eventually, and that is when hell will break lose, so to speak. "Why hell is breaking lose?" we shall ask, it is because policy advisors, and decision makers did not have the time to verify what is mischievously being relayed to them about Quranic teachings.

    ---



    PS. I have to clarify that throughout the history of Islam, many massacres took place in the name of Islam, but none of which has anything to do with Islam. e.g. Ottoman Empire practices in eastern Europe.
  • Reply 42 of 55
    jakkorzjakkorz Posts: 84member
    [quote]Originally posted by pfflam:

    <strong>Noah, that text that you quote is propaganda. Propaganda works by having the truth told in a way that distorts it dramatically till it is no longer true (such as Saladin was a killer of christians, true but he defended against the Crusades which were all about killing the Moslims...true but not true)



    Jakorz, your post was very insightful, particularly here:

    .

    .

    .



    I appreciate that kind of straight forwardness.



    I think, however, that what my previouse post was saying was not describing "what should be" but was saying what is. I was saying what I thought Evil is, and how it works and why it is bad.

    </strong><hr></blockquote>



    My apologies, I believe I have misunderstood what you meant by it.



    I still, however, agree with you that good must include and vice must exclude.
  • Reply 43 of 55
    artman @_@artman @_@ Posts: 2,546member
    Amazing. We are all analyzing this video now to the point where we all lose track of what it really means. That in this world there are still barbarians (not just these fools either...others wear suits) that will rape, kill and justify themselves over a idiotic ideology that their way of life (religious in most ways) is better than someone else's and if you don't conform (believe) you are dead meat. For me everything leads to one conclusion...that the faith in anything that doesn't exist (other than your fellow man standing next to you) is meaningless and will only lead to mankind's downfall. Face it. If we don't accept the fact that we (mankind) are here on our own and the only path toward peace and harmony is within ourselves we are lost...totally lost.



    Analyze what you will with anything in this messed up world we live in. Religion, politics or any dogma you want. We need to advance beyond these fairy tales and campfire stories. Wake up mankind. We're on the path to destruction. And only one inch on the ruler of Earth's existence. We just all cannot grasp the very being of being who and what we are...human, equal and intelligent. Pretty pathetic.
  • Reply 44 of 55
    zozo Posts: 3,117member
    you'll hate me or whatnot for this link... but I cant stand all this one sided Arab/Jewish and whatnot bashing all the damn time. <a href="http://www.trebus.fsnet.co.uk/vir2/world/che-19aj/uiho.htm"; target="_blank">http://www.trebus.fsnet.co.uk/vir2/world/che-19aj/uiho.htm</a>;



    have fun
  • Reply 45 of 55
    artman @_@artman @_@ Posts: 2,546member
    [quote]Originally posted by ZO:

    <strong>you'll hate me or whatnot for this link... but I cant stand all this one sided Arab/Jewish and whatnot bashing all the damn time. <a href="http://www.trebus.fsnet.co.uk/vir2/world/che-19aj/uiho.htm"; target="_blank">http://www.trebus.fsnet.co.uk/vir2/world/che-19aj/uiho.htm</a>;



    have fun</strong><hr></blockquote>



    Christ. ZO you know it. This ain't "fun". It is a sick and pathetic situation that mankind is in. All over the world there are these fools who will deny anyone their right to just live. Beyond friends, family and a small majority of people I have met (and will meet)...everyone else are sh!t.
  • Reply 46 of 55
    jakkorzjakkorz Posts: 84member
    [quote]Originally posted by Artman @_@:

    <strong>



    Christ. ZO you know it. This ain't "fun". It is a sick and pathetic situation that mankind is in. All over the world there are these fools who will deny anyone their right to just live. Beyond friends, family and a small majority of people I have met (and will meet)...everyone else are sh!t. </strong><hr></blockquote>



    I just saw the thumbs, and they are no comparison to what I have seen before. Practices of Qaeda followers go much deeper than that and they are much worse in brutality. I dare not even to speak of them at the moment. While those thumbs show one innocent child, the pure, childish, innocent little beings have suffered a great deal by Qaeda in Afganistan, only because their families are of a different sect than that of Qaeda.



    It is the untold, undocumented story.



    Last year I came across a story of a Qaeda follower who believes that he was let lose against a sect of muslims. He had pictures of him smiling to the camera while cutting his dead body victims into pieces, a nose, an ear, poking an eye, dismanteling limbs, etc. By the time he was arrested, he have already claimed and cut into pieces over 300 innocent lives.



    I apologize for posting what some might think that it is not related to the topic. I find it, however, in direct relation to respect human lives because some posts sounded to me like rallying against others based on religious believes. Not to mention that such believes are are not relayed in an honest way.



    My apologies.



    [ 05-28-2002: Message edited by: jakkorz ]</p>
  • Reply 47 of 55
    finboyfinboy Posts: 383member
    Watching that video just makes me want to go out and hunt down the killers. Then film their deaths for posterity. And put their heads on stakes.



    I think that remedy is probably close to what is required by strict Islamic law. At least the death and desecration part is. Saudis film executions, right? Murdering non-combatants is against the Koran, right?



    "Pour encourage les autres" or something like that.



    [ 05-28-2002: Message edited by: finboy ]</p>
  • Reply 48 of 55
    outsideroutsider Posts: 6,008member
    Ah, finboy, you have realized that religious fanatics are hipocrites that can't even see it.
  • Reply 49 of 55
    noahjnoahj Posts: 4,503member
    [quote]Originally posted by Outsider:

    <strong>Ah, finboy, you have realized that religious fanatics are hipocrites that can't even see it.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    Every one of them...



    I love these pat statements that blanket cover a group of people like that.



    Better stated, and more truthfully I might add:



    Religious fanatics are many times shown to be hypocrites that cannot see their own hypocrisy.
  • Reply 50 of 55
    ghost_user_nameghost_user_name Posts: 22,667member
    Noah, I'd be really interested to see your replies to Jakkorz's mammoth posting above.



  • Reply 51 of 55
    noahjnoahj Posts: 4,503member
    [quote]Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah:

    <strong>Noah, I'd be really interested to see your replies to Jakkorz's mammoth posting above.



    </strong><hr></blockquote>



    Actually, rather than go deeper with my limited knowlege I have downloaded and am reading the Koran right now. Any more posting will be based on personal reading rather than other peoples readings. That way if you don't like my interpretation you cannot say it is from a lack of personal knowledge.



    For now, the Koran reads very strangely, will take a while. For some reason it reads very primitively, and it is hard to follow one thought to the next...
  • Reply 52 of 55
    outsideroutsider Posts: 6,008member
    I love these pat statements that blanket cover a group of people like that.



    Better stated, and more truthfully I might add:



    Religious fanatics are many times shown to be hypocrites that cannot see their own hypocrisy.




    You're right but what I should have stated was:



    Religious extreemists are hypocrites that cannot see their own hypocrisy.
  • Reply 53 of 55
    noahjnoahj Posts: 4,503member
    Sounds the smae to me. Maybe in your definition of extremists this works, but as a sentence it still uses quite a broad brush.



    How about:



    [b]Religious suicide bombers are hypocrites that cannot see their own hypocrisy.[b]



    or



    Religious extremists are usually found to be hypocrites that cannot see their own hypocrisy.



    or



    The Religious extremists that destroyed the Twin Towers were hypocrites that could not see their own hypocrisy.



    Extremism in not neccesarily the same as hypocricy. But it does make it more likley.
  • Reply 54 of 55
    outsideroutsider Posts: 6,008member
    An extreemist is a person who brings an idea, action or thought to an extreme. Someone who likes extreme sports usually likes very dangerous and risky sports that may probably be illegal. There is another extreme but we usually only interest ourselves in the abnormal extreem or limit.



    A religious extremist takes their religion to the extreme. The absolute limit. It may be right to them but it most likely is wrong to the others of that religion. I'd like to think that if you are very religious but do not take it to the extreme of blowing stuff up for your god then you should not be labeled an extremist. Just a very devout person. 'Extremist' should be reserved for the negative extreme of a religion.
  • Reply 55 of 55


    To Outsider:


     


    I know this is super long ago, like a decade since Daniel Pearl was brutally murdered.  I was a resident doc at the time working 120 plus hours a week, so watching news etc. was not something that happened too often.  I was aware of what had happened, but due to work and the pressure that brings (at least used to bring before the law was changed - back when it was not uncommon to go 50 hours without sleep)


    But I digress.  


     


    Obviously, now I am a practicing physician with a lot of experience under my belt as a General Surgeon.  But I got a Kindle for a gift (and I know none of this matters to you really) and I have read "A Mighty Heart", and watched the film based on the book which I thought was done really well.


     


    Since my reading of the book and the film is really fresh for me; call it morbid curiosity, or the curiosity of someone who uses scalpels regularly - I had this need to see the full 4 minutes of what they really did to this in my opinion just an easy target being an American Journalist, and completely innocent of any wrong doing no matter what others might like us to think.


     


    I am a bit of an odd bird as far as surgeons go, I actually talk to my patients and learn about who they are as people, for me it makes me a better physician overall and not just a technician who is good with a blade.


    I think I wanted to see it to feel what he might have felt knowing he would never again see his wife and family, and most of all his unborn son.


     


    The video links available now are edited so the actual decapitation is removed, you see the post mortem view only.  I think I also wanted to feel some for what Marianne Pearl felt knowing what was done.


     


    The only way to view the 4 minute version now is to pay a site for instance a Racist NeoNazi type site and make a donation to their cause.  While I did want to view it, I am absolutely not going to further hatred and misguided anger by giving them even 2 bucks to see it.  It is not worth it.


    As I was browsing I found your post, and have to say I agreed with what you said.  And just felt like I wanted to put it out there in cyberspace.  Maybe so that people NEVER FORGET!!!  Because we know they do.


     


    Anyway if you even see this post or read it - thanks.


     


    SecretMD

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