At last - a spirited defense of Samsung. Oh, hang on, maybe not. Just another tirade that Apple copied first. Except those icons are quite different. Well, never mind. Carry on.
'Except those icons are quite different'
Look plenty similar to me. In fact, I would say the similarities are about the same as Samsung's are to iOS. Oh wait, this is the typical Apple defense. Where Apple has invented everything and to be shown examples where they didn't invent something is just ignored. We'll call that getting 'Judge K oh'ed. You know, throw out any evidence that disproves anything Apple says.
I can't wait for 2013 to get here and Google/Samsung sue the crap out of Apple for patent infringement on the Notification Center/banners and utilizing LTE in the new iPhone. It will also be interesting to see if Sony/LG can produce screens that fanboi'smwon't be crying about. The next year should give me a few chuckles. Can't wait for the whining to begin.
With all due respect... not quite so sure about your premise. Like most cultures, the vietnamese "hate" the Chinese, the South Korean's distrust the North Koreans, etc., etc.
Rather like Northern Ireland has a problem with the south or Israel has a problem with Arabs when essentially they are basically the same people or "peoples...." Could you tell the difference between a tutsi and a hutu? Me neither! :)
Uhh, South Korea doesn't trust North Korea, because the leadership are made up of wacko's. And Koreans have a distrust of Japanese because of the invasion prior to WWII. The Irish issue has nothing to do with the people and everything to do with religion.
Can you tell the difference between a Canadian, a Brit and a Yank? Me neither.
With all due respect... not quite so sure about your premise. Like most cultures, the vietnamese "hate" the Chinese, the South Korean's distrust the North Koreans, etc., etc.
Rather like Northern Ireland has a problem with the south or Israel has a problem with Arabs when essentially they are basically the same people or "peoples...." Could you tell the difference between a tutsi and a hutu? Me neither! :)
But those are learned biases. That means they can be unlearned or not taught at all. Just as certain people hate certain sports teams it's a cultural phenomenon. Sometimes it radiates through an entire nation and other times it's just a subculture, but it's all learned. There has been absolutely no proof that there are different "races" that define entire groups as being more intelligent, less intelligent, more honest or less honest than any other Homo sapiens on the planet.
PS: Are we even having the same discussion? It occurs to me that we might not.
Laziness on the part of the designers. They were probably told, without any real direction, "make some icons that look like these... and you have one hour for each one".
They would do as their art director asks, who is in-turn instructed by management.
At last - a spirited defense of Samsung. Oh, hang on, maybe not. Just another tirade that Apple copied first. Except those icons are quite different. Well, never mind. Carry on.
'Except those icons are quite different'
Look plenty similar to me. In fact, I would say the similarities are about the same as Samsung's are to iOS. Oh wait, this is the typical Apple defense. Where Apple has invented everything and to be shown examples where they didn't invent something is just ignored. We'll call that getting 'Judge K oh'ed. You know, throw out any evidence that disproves anything Apple says.
I can't wait for 2013 to get here and Google/Samsung sue the crap out of Apple for patent infringement on the Notification Center/banners and utilizing LTE in the new iPhone. It will also be interesting to see if Sony/LG can produce screens that fanboi'smwon't be crying about. The next year should give me a few chuckles. Can't wait for the whining to begin.
Ah yes - the "Apple is doomed" gambit. Always next year of course. Keep dreaming.
What I think is irrelevant. What matters is what Apple can prove. And some of these are going to be harder to prove than others.
What Apple is proving that in large AND small details of appearance AND action, Samsung is overall copying Apple's trade dress. Before Apple the usual iconigraphy for music throughout the twentieth century was a five line treble clef with notes. To boil that down to a single bridged note (with the bridge on top) didn't happen until Apple did it. FACT: Do a Google of "music symbols" and then click on images. Apple's bridged note is a minor symbol within the whole offering.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jigjag69
Legal pad is yellow paper ...no way around that one
Most people use sticky notes (unlined), most students use white paper with blue lines, note cards are white with blue lines. Even some legal pads are "eye ease" light green.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan
According to The Verge one of Apple's expert witness faltered under cross examination from Samsung.
Samsung's lawyers beat on the witness for HOURS. From what I've heard, he stood up reasonably well. My source was Forbes. So, I guess a writer can spin it however one wants.
The dialer (row 3, column 5) is a blue square with a white handset, at a 45-degree angle (vs. Apple's -45-degree orientation). Looks much more like the icon found on Bell Telephone pay phones than Apple's icon
The dialer is a green square with a white human silhouette, with a phone handset covering it at about a -10-degree angle
I don't think every one of Apple's examples is a good one, but it seems clear that Samsung intended to copy Apple. If they were just being lazy, they would've used the Andoid-standard icons or designed something similar.
And if they were trying to be original, there are plenty of ways to represent these concepts. We've already seen plenty of examples just in this discussion.
I can tell you from experience, that all mobile phones made prior to the iPhone only had two constants:
"Green" for Dial, and "Red" for end call. That's because these were physical buttons.
My Nokia N95, which came out the same year or so as the iPhone has this:
1. Contacts - Blue address book, which looks like a white analog telephone receiver on it
2. Messaging - Envelope, yellow
3. Maps - Green Compass
4. Music - A beige file folder with a squareish-speaker icon, two eighth notes on it
5. Gallery - Film-strip with a single eighth-note
6. Video Center - A television screen with a circle orbiting it
7. Search - A magnifying lens over earth (over Europe)
8. Web - Earth (Atlantic ocean centered)
9. Games - N-gage
10. Tools - A beige file folder with a wrench on it
11. Applications - A beige file folder with a red square on it
12. Ovi Store - A blue shopping bag (BTW this has a simiar shape to the Nintendo 3DS's store icon)
In side the Applications folder
1. Clock - Analog clock
2. Calculator - 3 digit digital calculator icon
3. Calendar - a flip calendar with the day on it
4. App manager - 4 3D cubes
5. Camera - A camera icon (with the round lens in the middle)
Also, inside the "Office" folder, there is a notes Icon which looks like a binder- notepad from the top, similar to the calendar's binder rings.
Ah yes - the "Apple is doomed" gambit. Always next year of course. Keep dreaming.
Let's be blunt. Do you believe Apple stole iMessage from BBM and the Notification Center/Banners in iOS5 from Android? I won't get into split keyboards, tabbed browsing, wireless syncing, ota updates, lock screen swipe app activation, camera on lockscreen from Windows Phone. iOS is nother but stolen ideas.
So yes or no, did Apple steal these ideas from RIM and Google? I expect you'll say no. Even if I asked if the sky was blue; if it put Apple in a bad light, you'dmsay no.
You lot are,really delusional.
Uhh, South Korea doesn't trust North Korea, because the leadership are made up of wacko's. And Koreans have a distrust of Japanese because of the invasion prior to WWII. The Irish issue has nothing to do with the people and everything to do with religion.
Can you tell the difference between a Canadian, a Brit and a Yank? Me neither.
Not to sound pedantic...but I'm a Brit who emigrated to Canada and then emigrated to America....
I stand by my premise....Korea/Samsung have a total disregard to America's/Apple's innovations...think about it, would we even have a smart phone if not for Apple's iPhone? No. We all would be using BB's Ugh! iPads? Neyt. MBA's...no just crappy Netbooks. Googlle ripped off iOS, MS is ripping off OSX and Samsung is ripping off the iPad and iPhone!
P.S. America is the best country in the world (after Thailand, that is
But those are learned biases. That means they can be unlearned or not taught at all. Just as certain people hate certain sports teams it's a cultural phenomenon. Sometimes it radiates through an entire nation and other times it's just a subculture, but it's all learned. There has been absolutely no proof that there are different "races" that define entire groups as being more intelligent, less intelligent, more honest or less honest than any other Homo sapiens on the planet.
PS: Are we even having the same discussion? It occurs to me that we might not.
Solip...that is exactly my point. Again, not to sound racist...but there are, indeed, cultural differences. This is why America is so clumsy in dealing with the rest of the world. A scrupulous westerner would be mortified to be caught in a lie (do some lie? Absolutely) But the eastern culture uses subterfuge and lying as part of the negotiation process. To think otherwise is naive....no offense.
Let's be blunt. Do you believe Apple stole iMessage from BBM and the Notification Center/Banners in iOS5 from Android? I won't get into split keyboards, tabbed browsing, wireless syncing, ota updates, lock screen swipe app activation, camera on lockscreen from Windows Phone. iOS is nother but stolen ideas.
So yes or no, did Apple steal these ideas from RIM and Google? I expect you'll say no. Even if I asked if the sky was blue; if it put Apple in a bad light, you'dmsay no.
You lot are,really delusional.
Stealing the ability to send short messages between 2 iPhones? I don't think Apple stole any such thing. If their implementation of a message system between iPhones/iDevices/Macs is infringing upon RIM patents for messaging between Blackberry devices, then I'm sure Apple will hear about it.
But those are learned biases. That means they can be unlearned or not taught at all. Just as certain people hate certain sports teams it's a cultural phenomenon. Sometimes it radiates through an entire nation and other times it's just a subculture, but it's all learned. There has been absolutely no proof that there are different "races" that define entire groups as being more intelligent, less intelligent, more honest or less honest than any other Homo sapiens on the planet.
PS: Are we even having the same discussion? It occurs to me that we might not.
Agreed...no one was going to "change" Hitler's mindset in 1936...but perhaps, when he was 3.....? May be.
But I'm talking about the "now!" And the Koreans, Chinese, etc., are not our "friends" or even "business partners." They are rapacious and to think otherwise is, indeed, naive.
That's not racist or hateful, but rather the reality. Sorry!
Apple needs to disassociate itself with Samsung and Google ASAP! Both are stealing Apple's IP! And so is China for that matter.
At first I was thinking "well, this could go either way… I mean, how else do you represent a phone, a notepad…?" and so on...
Until I got to the iTunes icon, and saw the old iTunes logo almost replicated exactly (visually, they aren't far apart at all)…
Still, I thought Samsung might have some wiggle room, might be able to say it wasn't the INTENT to 'copy slavishly'...
And then I saw the last one. The "photo" app icon.
They actually used a flower. And not just a flower, a SUNFLOWER. Of all the representative images possible in all the imaginations of all humanity to represent a PHOTO APP… they picked one that is THE SAME as the one used by Apple.
And that sealed the deal for me. It provides an easy conclusion to a clearly visible pattern. They were "closely copying, with only minor variations", across every aspect of the iPhone design, right down to the same flower in a photo app icon...
I don't know what else to think.
Could culture really possibly explain how far this goes? I don't think so. I lived in Japan for almost 12 years, so I think I understand the nuances of "emulation" that run through the culture there (in the simplest of terms, "you emulate what you admire", explains it mostly)… but this goes pretty far beyond that… this is just plain copying for the sake of "appearing to be the same as or equivalent to…", and that, I suppose, points to clear infringement...
Asian cultures, in general, tend to emphasize community rather than individuality. For many Asian cultures, building on the work of others is honored.
That said, it's really irrelevant. We have laws in this country and there are laws in other countries. if Samsung is breaking the law and illegally copying Apple's product, it is irrelevant whether that is a cultural difference or simply lazy management.
I'd have to agree with you. Though, making simple icon design changes doesn't really rise to the level of building on the work of others except maybe in the 3rd grade.
"If I have seen further it is by standing on ye sholders of Giants" - Newton
Had there not been paper making invention by the Chinese around 100 AD, people all over, including "Americans", would have been chugging along "the real tablets" made of stones much like ones brought by Moses as he returned from Mt. Sinai. Too bad, the Chinese had not patented the idea.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lerxt
Like the rest of Asia, Koreans obviously struggle for original ideas.
Asian cultures, in general, tend to emphasize community rather than individuality. For many Asian cultures, building on the work of others is honored.
That said, it's really irrelevant. We have laws in this country and there are laws in other countries. if Samsung is breaking the law and illegally copying Apple's product, it is irrelevant whether that is a cultural difference or simply lazy management.
It's not acceptable to build upon the work of others in Korea. But Korean judges will side with the chaebols all the time. They're the ones who said Lee Kun Hee was "too important for the country to be jailed." I hope Koh doesn't channel her inner cultural roots while presiding over the case.
[sarcasm]So, it's clear that samsung were copying skype here, you can tell by the angle of the handset.[/sarcasm]
Now, I DO think samsung copied apple's icons (too much coincidence). However, I do NOT think apple has a any legitimate claim to many of the icons they are laying a claim to, because they weren't "first".
Comments
Look plenty similar to me. In fact, I would say the similarities are about the same as Samsung's are to iOS. Oh wait, this is the typical Apple defense. Where Apple has invented everything and to be shown examples where they didn't invent something is just ignored. We'll call that getting 'Judge K oh'ed. You know, throw out any evidence that disproves anything Apple says.
I can't wait for 2013 to get here and Google/Samsung sue the crap out of Apple for patent infringement on the Notification Center/banners and utilizing LTE in the new iPhone. It will also be interesting to see if Sony/LG can produce screens that fanboi'smwon't be crying about. The next year should give me a few chuckles. Can't wait for the whining to begin.
Uhh, South Korea doesn't trust North Korea, because the leadership are made up of wacko's. And Koreans have a distrust of Japanese because of the invasion prior to WWII. The Irish issue has nothing to do with the people and everything to do with religion.
Can you tell the difference between a Canadian, a Brit and a Yank? Me neither.
But those are learned biases. That means they can be unlearned or not taught at all. Just as certain people hate certain sports teams it's a cultural phenomenon. Sometimes it radiates through an entire nation and other times it's just a subculture, but it's all learned. There has been absolutely no proof that there are different "races" that define entire groups as being more intelligent, less intelligent, more honest or less honest than any other Homo sapiens on the planet.
PS: Are we even having the same discussion? It occurs to me that we might not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich
Laziness on the part of the designers. They were probably told, without any real direction, "make some icons that look like these... and you have one hour for each one".
They would do as their art director asks, who is in-turn instructed by management.
Ah yes - the "Apple is doomed" gambit. Always next year of course. Keep dreaming.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
What I think is irrelevant. What matters is what Apple can prove. And some of these are going to be harder to prove than others.
What Apple is proving that in large AND small details of appearance AND action, Samsung is overall copying Apple's trade dress. Before Apple the usual iconigraphy for music throughout the twentieth century was a five line treble clef with notes. To boil that down to a single bridged note (with the bridge on top) didn't happen until Apple did it. FACT: Do a Google of "music symbols" and then click on images. Apple's bridged note is a minor symbol within the whole offering.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jigjag69
Legal pad is yellow paper ...no way around that one
Most people use sticky notes (unlined), most students use white paper with blue lines, note cards are white with blue lines. Even some legal pads are "eye ease" light green.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan
According to The Verge one of Apple's expert witness faltered under cross examination from Samsung.
http://www.theverge.com/2012/8/6/3223372/peter-bressler-testimony-apple-samsung-trial
Samsung's lawyers beat on the witness for HOURS. From what I've heard, he stood up reasonably well. My source was Forbes. So, I guess a writer can spin it however one wants.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shamino
The dialer (row 3, column 5) is a blue square with a white handset, at a 45-degree angle (vs. Apple's -45-degree orientation). Looks much more like the icon found on Bell Telephone pay phones than Apple's icon
The dialer is a green square with a white human silhouette, with a phone handset covering it at about a -10-degree angle
I don't think every one of Apple's examples is a good one, but it seems clear that Samsung intended to copy Apple. If they were just being lazy, they would've used the Andoid-standard icons or designed something similar.
And if they were trying to be original, there are plenty of ways to represent these concepts. We've already seen plenty of examples just in this discussion.
I can tell you from experience, that all mobile phones made prior to the iPhone only had two constants:
"Green" for Dial, and "Red" for end call. That's because these were physical buttons.
My Nokia N95, which came out the same year or so as the iPhone has this:
1. Contacts - Blue address book, which looks like a white analog telephone receiver on it
2. Messaging - Envelope, yellow
3. Maps - Green Compass
4. Music - A beige file folder with a squareish-speaker icon, two eighth notes on it
5. Gallery - Film-strip with a single eighth-note
6. Video Center - A television screen with a circle orbiting it
7. Search - A magnifying lens over earth (over Europe)
8. Web - Earth (Atlantic ocean centered)
9. Games - N-gage
10. Tools - A beige file folder with a wrench on it
11. Applications - A beige file folder with a red square on it
12. Ovi Store - A blue shopping bag (BTW this has a simiar shape to the Nintendo 3DS's store icon)
In side the Applications folder
1. Clock - Analog clock
2. Calculator - 3 digit digital calculator icon
3. Calendar - a flip calendar with the day on it
4. App manager - 4 3D cubes
5. Camera - A camera icon (with the round lens in the middle)
Also, inside the "Office" folder, there is a notes Icon which looks like a binder- notepad from the top, similar to the calendar's binder rings.
Let's be blunt. Do you believe Apple stole iMessage from BBM and the Notification Center/Banners in iOS5 from Android? I won't get into split keyboards, tabbed browsing, wireless syncing, ota updates, lock screen swipe app activation, camera on lockscreen from Windows Phone. iOS is nother but stolen ideas.
So yes or no, did Apple steal these ideas from RIM and Google? I expect you'll say no. Even if I asked if the sky was blue; if it put Apple in a bad light, you'dmsay no.
You lot are,really delusional.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac.World
Uhh, South Korea doesn't trust North Korea, because the leadership are made up of wacko's. And Koreans have a distrust of Japanese because of the invasion prior to WWII. The Irish issue has nothing to do with the people and everything to do with religion.
Can you tell the difference between a Canadian, a Brit and a Yank? Me neither.
Not to sound pedantic...but I'm a Brit who emigrated to Canada and then emigrated to America....
I stand by my premise....Korea/Samsung have a total disregard to America's/Apple's innovations...think about it, would we even have a smart phone if not for Apple's iPhone? No. We all would be using BB's Ugh! iPads? Neyt. MBA's...no just crappy Netbooks. Googlle ripped off iOS, MS is ripping off OSX and Samsung is ripping off the iPad and iPhone!
P.S. America is the best country in the world (after Thailand, that is
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
But those are learned biases. That means they can be unlearned or not taught at all. Just as certain people hate certain sports teams it's a cultural phenomenon. Sometimes it radiates through an entire nation and other times it's just a subculture, but it's all learned. There has been absolutely no proof that there are different "races" that define entire groups as being more intelligent, less intelligent, more honest or less honest than any other Homo sapiens on the planet.
PS: Are we even having the same discussion? It occurs to me that we might not.
Solip...that is exactly my point. Again, not to sound racist...but there are, indeed, cultural differences. This is why America is so clumsy in dealing with the rest of the world. A scrupulous westerner would be mortified to be caught in a lie (do some lie? Absolutely) But the eastern culture uses subterfuge and lying as part of the negotiation process. To think otherwise is naive....no offense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac.World
The Irish issue has nothing to do with the people and everything to do with religion....
errrr. I think it may have to do with a feeling of "occupation" as well...although I agree, religion has a lot to do with it.
P.S. On a side note: Why did God invent alcohol? To stop the Irish from ruling the world!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac.World
Let's be blunt. Do you believe Apple stole iMessage from BBM and the Notification Center/Banners in iOS5 from Android? I won't get into split keyboards, tabbed browsing, wireless syncing, ota updates, lock screen swipe app activation, camera on lockscreen from Windows Phone. iOS is nother but stolen ideas.
So yes or no, did Apple steal these ideas from RIM and Google? I expect you'll say no. Even if I asked if the sky was blue; if it put Apple in a bad light, you'dmsay no.
You lot are,really delusional.
Stealing the ability to send short messages between 2 iPhones? I don't think Apple stole any such thing. If their implementation of a message system between iPhones/iDevices/Macs is infringing upon RIM patents for messaging between Blackberry devices, then I'm sure Apple will hear about it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
But those are learned biases. That means they can be unlearned or not taught at all. Just as certain people hate certain sports teams it's a cultural phenomenon. Sometimes it radiates through an entire nation and other times it's just a subculture, but it's all learned. There has been absolutely no proof that there are different "races" that define entire groups as being more intelligent, less intelligent, more honest or less honest than any other Homo sapiens on the planet.
PS: Are we even having the same discussion? It occurs to me that we might not.
Agreed...no one was going to "change" Hitler's mindset in 1936...but perhaps, when he was 3.....? May be.
But I'm talking about the "now!" And the Koreans, Chinese, etc., are not our "friends" or even "business partners." They are rapacious and to think otherwise is, indeed, naive.
That's not racist or hateful, but rather the reality. Sorry!
Apple needs to disassociate itself with Samsung and Google ASAP! Both are stealing Apple's IP! And so is China for that matter.
SAMSUNG WHOLESALE RIPPED APPLE OFF.
At first I was thinking "well, this could go either way… I mean, how else do you represent a phone, a notepad…?" and so on...
Until I got to the iTunes icon, and saw the old iTunes logo almost replicated exactly (visually, they aren't far apart at all)…
Still, I thought Samsung might have some wiggle room, might be able to say it wasn't the INTENT to 'copy slavishly'...
And then I saw the last one. The "photo" app icon.
They actually used a flower. And not just a flower, a SUNFLOWER. Of all the representative images possible in all the imaginations of all humanity to represent a PHOTO APP… they picked one that is THE SAME as the one used by Apple.
And that sealed the deal for me. It provides an easy conclusion to a clearly visible pattern. They were "closely copying, with only minor variations", across every aspect of the iPhone design, right down to the same flower in a photo app icon...
I don't know what else to think.
Could culture really possibly explain how far this goes? I don't think so. I lived in Japan for almost 12 years, so I think I understand the nuances of "emulation" that run through the culture there (in the simplest of terms, "you emulate what you admire", explains it mostly)… but this goes pretty far beyond that… this is just plain copying for the sake of "appearing to be the same as or equivalent to…", and that, I suppose, points to clear infringement...
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
Asian cultures, in general, tend to emphasize community rather than individuality. For many Asian cultures, building on the work of others is honored.
That said, it's really irrelevant. We have laws in this country and there are laws in other countries. if Samsung is breaking the law and illegally copying Apple's product, it is irrelevant whether that is a cultural difference or simply lazy management.
I'd have to agree with you. Though, making simple icon design changes doesn't really rise to the level of building on the work of others except maybe in the 3rd grade.
"If I have seen further it is by standing on ye sholders of Giants" - Newton
Had there not been paper making invention by the Chinese around 100 AD, people all over, including "Americans", would have been chugging along "the real tablets" made of stones much like ones brought by Moses as he returned from Mt. Sinai. Too bad, the Chinese had not patented the idea.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lerxt
Like the rest of Asia, Koreans obviously struggle for original ideas.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
Asian cultures, in general, tend to emphasize community rather than individuality. For many Asian cultures, building on the work of others is honored.
That said, it's really irrelevant. We have laws in this country and there are laws in other countries. if Samsung is breaking the law and illegally copying Apple's product, it is irrelevant whether that is a cultural difference or simply lazy management.
It's not acceptable to build upon the work of others in Korea. But Korean judges will side with the chaebols all the time. They're the ones who said Lee Kun Hee was "too important for the country to be jailed." I hope Koh doesn't channel her inner cultural roots while presiding over the case.
Thought I'd mention this:
[sarcasm]So, it's clear that samsung were copying skype here, you can tell by the angle of the handset.[/sarcasm]
Now, I DO think samsung copied apple's icons (too much coincidence). However, I do NOT think apple has a any legitimate claim to many of the icons they are laying a claim to, because they weren't "first".