Teen shot by DEA agents dies in hospital is it excessive force?

Posted:
in General Discussion edited January 2014
<a href="http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/metropolitan/1775795"; target="_blank">Teen shot by DEA agents dies</a>



Well here we go with another one of these all sides shades of gray muckity-mucks. DEA agents shot the girl when she appeared to resist arrest by smashing into their cars. She was the daughter of the suspected drug offender and was likely driving his intoxicated friend somewhere.



We have the typical scenario in most regards. The suspects are angry about the excessive force but that didn't stop them from breaking the law several different ways. The girl was driving at a high rate of speed, left with the headlights off and of course was driving at night while 14 years old.



The agents claimed she was ramming them, but being 14 and having less driving experience, perhaps she was just flipping out a bit and it looked threatening. The agents responded with 4 shots, 1 of which hit her in the back of the head and shortly afterward killed her. Could the agents have anticipated more than they did? Were they too aggressive? When you break the law this badly are you pretty much assuring that a standard response won't work and should be prepared for the worst?



What do you think about it?



Nick
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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 23
    noahjnoahj Posts: 4,503member
    Sadly the agents appear to have done the right thing. My condolences to her parents, whatever that is worth.
  • Reply 2 of 23
    This is ridiculous. First off unless the agents could positiveluy identify the person as THE suspect AND could prove that they were in MORTAL danger they had no right to shoot.



    Second:There is NO word on the lighting on the street in question. I have seen many many people drive around with no headlights because they do not realize that they aren't on and the street lights provide "enough" illumination for them to see.



    Third: If you're an innocent person and you get blocked in by unmarked vehicles (it wasn't said if the vehicles were marked and no stakeout happens with MARKED vehicles) YOU too would be scared shitless.



    FOURTh: Since when is shooting someone in the back of the head considered "defensive?"
  • Reply 3 of 23
    matsumatsu Posts: 6,558member
    1st question, was she black?
  • Reply 4 of 23
    groveratgroverat Posts: 10,872member
    No, Matsu, judging by her last name she was brown. Same concept, unfortunately.



    I do not see how you can say that the agents were acting as they should have. The car was unmarked. They did not identify themselves. They had no reason to fire on the car.



    These men should be fired at the very least.
  • Reply 4 of 23
    xionjaxionja Posts: 504member
    [quote]Originally posted by NoahJ:

    <strong>Sadly the agents appear to have done the right thing. My condolences to her parents, whatever that is worth.</strong><hr></blockquote>





    Just because someone isnt getting raised very well ( i took the liberty to assume this as her father was a cocaine trafficker) doesnt mean they need to die. She wasnt intoxicated when she was killed. It was probably safer for her to be driving the family friend home, then for him to be driving at all.

    How is right for these agents to go and kill people? killing people isnt gonna stop drug use, or trafficking.
  • Reply 6 of 23
    matsumatsu Posts: 6,558member
    [quote]Originally posted by groverat:

    <strong>No, Matsu, judging by her last name she was brown. Same concept, unfortunately.



    </strong><hr></blockquote>



    Well that seals it, regardless of what may or may not have happened, no one is going to hear what the other side is saying. In the end a girl is dead, and she shouldn't be, but it's bound to turn into a circus.
  • Reply 7 of 23
    alcimedesalcimedes Posts: 5,486member
    this is a perfect example of when dash cams would come in handy. it would be nice to see exactly what was going on here before anyone decides one way or the other.



    w/o seeing what happened, it's hard to judge exactly what was going on.



    the people in the victim's car will have one story, the cops will have another. it's in both side's best interest to tell a story that fits what they felt was going on, not sure how we can really make an informed opinion on this one.
  • Reply 8 of 23
    [quote] When agents boxed the car in and attempted to arrest the man, they said the girl who was driving the car continued toward them and slammed into their vehicle, then shifted into reverse and rammed the DEA vehicle behind her. Agents fired at least four times, and the girl was struck in the head.

    <hr></blockquote>



    Couldn't they shoot the tires instead? Did they really need to shoot INTO the vehicle?
  • Reply 9 of 23
    matsumatsu Posts: 6,558member
    Shooting doesn't work that way. I'm not defending or attacking their actions, I just see this mentioned often, shoot the tires, legs, gun out of the hand. Officers are trained to shoot for the center of the largest target that will incapacitate. That means the center of the chest. In this instance training takes over, I think and you merely shoot at the perp, the brain doesn't have time to think to shoot at the vehicle, nothing you ever learned suggests you do that, and under the excitement of the moment you'd never extrapolate it. The gun out of hand, or shot in the leg notions are ludicris hollywood ideas. Anyone who's fired pistols will know that. Center of the chest, the brain doesn't have time for anything else.
  • Reply 9 of 23
    scottscott Posts: 7,431member
    Car== deadly weapon. Police == fodder in a job you don't want to do. 14 years old == shouldn't be driving anyway.



    So quaint when you arm chair cops come in ipso facto and spell out what you think should have happened. Try doing their job for 1 secnond and see of you can keep you liberal attitude.
  • Reply 11 of 23
    [quote]Originally posted by Matsu:

    <strong>Shooting doesn't work that way. I'm not defending or attacking their actions, I just see this mentioned often, shoot the tires, legs, gun out of the hand. Officers are trained to shoot for the center of the largest target that will incapacitate. That means the center of the chest. In this instance training takes over, I think and you merely shoot at the perp, the brain doesn't have time to think to shoot at the vehicle, nothing you ever learned suggests you do that, and under the excitement of the moment you'd never extrapolate it. The gun out of hand, or shot in the leg notions are ludicris hollywood ideas. Anyone who's fired pistols will know that. Center of the chest, the brain doesn't have time for anything else.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    if thats true then i think cops should be taught some nonlethal shooting. whenever they are not in lethal danger, they should not kill anyone else. i realize that hitting limbs may not be easy, but tires are easy enough. if they were able to hit the poor girl's head, i think they were good enough to hit her tires.



    this little girl should not have died.
  • Reply 12 of 23
    brbr Posts: 8,395member
    [quote]Originally posted by Scott:

    <strong>Car== deadly weapon. Police == fodder in a job you don't want to do. 14 years old == shouldn't be driving anyway.



    So quaint when you arm chair cops come in ipso facto and spell out what you think should have happened. Try doing their job for 1 secnond and see of you can keep you liberal attitude.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    Yup. All that's left is for you to call people who disagree with you anti-american and it would be the same crap you post in every thread. Can you leave this BS liberal crap out of at least one thread?
  • Reply 13 of 23
    groveratgroverat Posts: 10,872member
    No, BR, he can't.



    Police are not and should not be trained for non-lethal shooting, but they should be and are taught to not fire unless they are justified in taking a life.



    How is a little girl supposed to know what these unmarked cars are doing? How is she to know that these aren't people trying to kill/beat up/rape/kidnap her?



    Agents in an unmarked car that didn't identify themselves.



    Don't worry, Scott, nothing will happen to the agents. At the most they'll get 2 days of desk work or paid "suspension" and then life goes on like normal. Like the rapist priest who gets reassigned to a different church in a different town.



    No worries, Scott, no one is going to do a single thing to their pretty little heads.
  • Reply 14 of 23
    noahjnoahj Posts: 4,503member
    [quote]Originally posted by groverat:

    <strong>No, BR, he can't.



    Police are not and should not be trained for non-lethal shooting, but they should be and are taught to not fire unless they are justified in taking a life.



    How is a little girl supposed to know what these unmarked cars are doing? How is she to know that these aren't people trying to kill/beat up/rape/kidnap her?



    Agents in an unmarked car that didn't identify themselves.



    Don't worry, Scott, nothing will happen to the agents. At the most they'll get 2 days of desk work or paid "suspension" and then life goes on like normal. Like the rapist priest who gets reassigned to a different church in a different town.



    No worries, Scott, no one is going to do a single thing to their pretty little heads.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    Easy there Groverat. This is not the same thing as a predatory priest preying on innocent children over and over and then gettinga slap on the wrist. They thought they were tracking a drug trafficker. They thought there was danger. She was not alone in the car so when she started crashing into their cars how were they to know that he was not forcing her to do so or if he was going to start opening fire as well. So what do they do, they act defensively and shoot at the car. That the girl died is a tragedy, but I do not think there was much else that the officers could have done in that split second. If the guy was the drug trafficker and they did not shoot and he killed one of them people would likely be deriding them for not knowing how to defend themselves and calling for better police training to save our officers lives. It is a no-win situation. They did what they did with the information they had. The circumstances were uncannily right, but they had the wrong perp. Once more, my condolences to her family, whatever that is worth. However these cops are going to have a tremendous amount of guilt and self doubt for a long time over this. They were not bad people for what they did, and anyone who says they are is not looking at all the facts or possible outcomes.
  • Reply 15 of 23
    groveratgroverat Posts: 10,872member
    [quote]Originally posted by NoahJ:

    <strong>This is not the same thing as a predatory priest preying on innocent children over and over and then gettinga slap on the wrist.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    The way that cops and law enforcement agents are dealt with after they wrongly shoot someone is similar, yes.



    [quote]<strong>They thought they were tracking a drug trafficker. They thought there was danger.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    Only danger that they created by blocking the car off in unmarked cars and not identifying themselves before they started firing.



    [quote]<strong>She was not alone in the car so when she started crashing into their cars how were they to know that he was not forcing her to do so or if he was going to start opening fire as well.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    How would the passenger forcing the girl to drive on justify firing?

    You do not want to give officers license to start firing if they think that maybe someone they can't see has a gun. If they saw a gun then fine, but there is no report that they did.



    [quote]<strong>So what do they do, they act defensively and shoot at the car.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    So can I block off a car with a friend (me in front, him behind) and then start shooting if the car we're trapping tries to ram me? Good to know.



    [quote]<strong>That the girl died is a tragedy, but I do not think there was much else that the officers could have done in that split second.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    They could've identified themselves and tried to pull the car over like cops do every freaking day. Crazy, eh?



    [quote]<strong>However these cops are going to have a tremendous amount of guilt and self doubt for a long time over this. They were not bad people for what they did, and anyone who says they are is not looking at all the facts or possible outcomes.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    I don't know if they're bad people or not. They should have a tremendous amount of guilt because they took a little girl's life without valid reason.



    But no worries, Noah, nothing will happen to them. Just a brown girl from a poor family. They'll keep their jobs.
  • Reply 16 of 23
    noahjnoahj Posts: 4,503member
    [quote]Originally posted by groverat:

    <strong>



    I don't know if they're bad people or not. They should have a tremendous amount of guilt because they took a little girl's life without valid reason.



    But no worries, Noah, nothing will happen to them. Just a brown girl from a poor family. They'll keep their jobs.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    I am not worried about them. They will get a trial and if they are found negligent will pay. I have no problems either way. I just find it interesting that you seem to think it is all very simple. In retrospect things are rather easy aren't they? Try making those choices as it happens and I bet you find that they are not so simple. If only we all had the time to look at our life in retrospect before things occur. we would all make much better decisions.



    And knock off the little brown girl act. I never brought it up, and neither has anyone else except Matsu. The color of the victim does not matter to me, the girl is dead and that is enough. Obviously you disagree with me that they did what they felt was needed. I think you need to take another step back and look at the larger picture, but you are having too much fun poking at others and calling them racists. Enjoy. Im out.
  • Reply 17 of 23
    brbr Posts: 8,395member
    Yet another casualty in our ludicrous war on drugs.
  • Reply 18 of 23
    bungebunge Posts: 7,329member
    [quote]Originally posted by NoahJ:

    <strong>



    And knock off the little brown girl act. </strong><hr></blockquote>



    The thing is, it could have played a part in the saga. She's brown so shoot first and ask questions later. It wouldn't be the first time it happened.



    As long as this state has a death penalty, if these guys are found guilty of even negligence I say string 'em up. It might prevent many future killings from other police.
  • Reply 19 of 23
    i don't think groverat is calling you a racist...or anybody here...he is merely pointing out a fact that brown children, black children, heck even red and yellow children have fewer protections and a smaller voice for them in america....anybody who denys this is not looking closely...we can work to change it, we can try not to let these values be our values...but it is very very true...working in pediatrics in a poor state...and having lived in a much less poor state, i can tell you it is so....g



    as for she was too young to drive....how does that work in this??? so underage driving = death by cop??? hell, my daughter has been driving around the neighborhood since she was 12....we want her well trained before she hits these ****edup highways....maybe we have to train her to watch out for unmarked police cars??
  • Reply 20 of 23
    groveratgroverat Posts: 10,872member
    Noah:



    Do you honestly think that race does not play a factor in the grand scheme of law enforcement? If so you're naive, the little girl's race is perfectly valid because it makes a difference. What color is Laci Peterson? Hmmm.



    Little brown girl shot dead by drug agents. *blip*

    Pretty white pregnant lady missing. *front page for days*



    -



    I'll bet there is no trial for the agents, why would there be?



    I understand that it's all very difficult in the situation, but that's no excuse. That is their job, it is their job to handle difficult situations and these agents failed miserably and took a little girl's life in the process.



    But nothing will happen to them if history is any indication. Perhaps this will be an exception and they'll be held responsible.
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