Sure I can. There are measured tests that show a distinct difference in battery life using the same HW. You can argue that Apple's BootCamp drivers aren't as good as their Mac OS drivers but that's part of the reason why Macs perform better. Apple designs their PCs and OS so they have control over how the power is managed. They also have a very small number of products to test for compared to all major OEMs and MS. I'm not sure why you would discount this. It's this advantage that makes Macs that much better than the competition. You've also only mentioned drivers without any mention of how the Windows itself could simply be less efficient than Mac OS.
I didn't say you could make a comparison, I just said it's not quite fair. I am arguing exactly that Apple's BootCamp drivers are poorer than they could be. The graphics switching on the rMBP isn't even enabled. Running off the dGPU will hurt battery life significantly. They're not selling Windows PC's so they don't probably care. At this point, BootCamp is just a treat from Apple. I wouldn't be surprised if they dropped it soon. Macs generally have better power management for exactly the reasons you state: they can optimize for their limited hardware models.
I'm also not discounting the fact that Windows may be slightly less battery inclined than OS X, for the simple reason that they have to support a swath of hardware and optimization doesn't occur to the same level as Apple's.
With all that said, I'm not sure we're disagreeing.
I haven't had any issues on my '11 MBP either. Battery life actually seems to be improved for me slightly. Nevertheless, I'm sure Apple will have an update soon.
I have found it to slow down my machine considerably. Not all the time, but there are long pauses at times when everything seems to be running in molases.
Mail seems to be part of it taking longer to do many tasks and inexplicably chewing up cpu usage.
Then there is the memory issue. I have to run Free Memory a LOT more often than before ( great utility - you should all have it) - and this brings the system to a halt.
Perhaps some of the power usage is do to thrashing.
If I have any complaint it's that Mail seems sluggish. I've removed a lot of messages from IMAP which seems to have made it better but IMO this shouldn't be an issue with a local app with cached mail that isn't even open.
A couple things to consider:
Is your Mail still pulling down messages from the server(s)? This is common for IMAP and a fresh Mail account setup (i.e.: not an upgrade from Lion to ML).
Did you enable File Vault where as previously your drive wasn't encrypted. This security comes at the price of some reduced performance.
I didn't say you could make a comparison, I just said it's not quite fair. I am arguing exactly that Apple's BootCamp drivers are poorer than they could be. The graphics switching on the rMBP isn't even enabled. Running off the dGPU will hurt battery life significantly. They're not selling Windows PC's so they don't probably care. At this point, BootCamp is just a treat from Apple. I wouldn't be surprised if they dropped it soon. Macs generally have better power management for exactly the reasons you state: they can optimize for their limited hardware models.
I'm also not discounting the fact that Windows may be slightly less battery inclined than OS X, for the simple reason that they have to support a swath of hardware and optimization doesn't occur to the same level as Apple's.
With all that said, I'm not sure we're disagreeing.
Unless you can assure me that Windows drivers from MS or the OEMs are significantly better on non-Mac HW then my point stands. It's the union of HW and SW that helps make Macs that much better than Win PCs.
It's irrelevant that MS has a daunting challenge of orchestrating even decent driver support across all the possible HW that use their OS because that is the market they choose to be in. If the Windows experience is worse for it the blame falls on them.
The same goes for the iPhone. There is a reason the iPhone can last as long or longer than most Android phones with significantly larger batteries. Some of it Android-based vendors are using some power hungry components to attract users who buy on spec but that doesn't account for all of it as most Android-based phones are not being sold to such a crowd.
Close Chrome and force your GfxStatus to stick to the Integrate Gfx. Gfx is an amazing app. Hopefully Cody will improve Apple's switching.
Chrome is a disaster for power efficiency. Its one-site-fits-all for Flash is stupid. Why load a plug-in or demand those resources when they are not required?
Unless you can assure me that Windows drivers from MS or the OEMs are significantly better on non-Mac HW then my point stands. It's the union of HW and SW that helps make Macs that much better than Win PCs.
It's irrelevant that MS has a daunting challenge of orchestrating even decent driver support across all the possible HW that use their OS because that is the market they choose to be in. If the Windows experience is worse for it the blame falls on them.
The same goes for the iPhone. There is a reason the iPhone can last as long or longer than most Android phones with significantly larger batteries. Some of it Android-based vendors are using some power hungry components to attract users who buy on spec but that doesn't account for all of it as most Android-based phones are not being sold to such a crowd.
I'm still not sure what point you're making. OS X and Macs were made for each other. If it doesn't have better battery life, then there's a problem.
What I'm saying is that comparing battery life of an Apple OS on an Apple machine with the battery life of a non-Apple OS on an Apple machine using Apple drivers can only be used for ballpark figures.
Actually, in over 90 percent of the Windows XP and Win 7 installs I have either completed myself I never had any problems. All the drivers were there and everything works fine. I currently have a Mac Mini and its nice and the OS X works fine, but Windows 7 is equal in every way to OS X. Either you have never used Win 7 or you are biased.
I love Apple, (I'm an investor) but you guys need to wake up. Windows 7 is a rock solid OS.
Nope, not ballpark. You can get consistent and precise measurements as to how efficient any OS is on any HW with a specific battery size or power draw. This is not debatable!
Before there were Intel Macs people claimed that Windows was more efficient than Macs but because Apple used different architecture there was no way to test a direct comparison. Now we can! And note that many of the drivers for Windows on a Mac are not from Apple. They are from component vendors or from MS. But all that's beside the point because it's ultimately up to MS to make sure the user experience and performance of their OS is good so if they don't want to make better any drivers directly from Apple you claim are purposely insufficient it's not up to Apple since they don't sell Windows PCs.
This is really cut and dry. Since drivers between Windows and Mac OS will always be different you are just saying that you can never compare the two. That's bullshit!
Of course you can make determinations on the battery life of two specific OSs on one set of specific hardware with respect to running on that specific hardware and driver set. I don't need to contend that their driver support is worse for Windows on Mac. It's true. No graphics switching on Windows is an inferior experience. It's also an indication of inferior hardware support for Windows on their hardware and will by extension hurt the battery life with other OSs. Lastly, it's absolutely up to Apple for better driver support for Macs running Windows if a fair comparison is to be made. If Apple says they support Windows on Mac then it's up to them for the drivers. And Apple has released drivers for Windows. We just know that they're not up to the task for testing OS X vs Windows battery life beyond a ballpark measure. That's completely fine, Apple didn't make any proclamations that Windows would run well, just run.
Edit: Just to clarify, I don't believe Apple has any obligation to release any special drivers for Windows using their special graphics switching software(or however the switching is done) just that it's hard to compare battery life figures when the hardware manufacturer supports different configurations on different supported OSs.
I'm really starting to like your objectivity. Good call! As we say in Boston, "Cool Beans!"
Actually, I'm very interested. You haven't had a "single" problem? Do you do multi-monitor work?
I'm also being trivial here, (very, very trivial) but did you notice more screen savers yet fewer screen saver options?
...and before some one rides my case about just screen savers. There's more than that.
No, I don't really do multi monitor work. When working I have my air connected to a 26" display in closed lid mode. I've read that ML handles multiple monitors better than Lion but no 1st hand experience. I'd its an extremely small percentage of mac users that use multiple monitors, so even if its not optimal I'd say its irrelevant for most. I think there's a few more screensaver options, and a new section called slideshows, which has 14 options using photos with different transitions. Either way I don't use a screensaver, I think its a waste of power and my monitor just shuts off after a few min.
Actually, in over 90 percent of the Windows XP and Win 7 installs I have either completed myself I never had any problems. All the drivers were there and everything works fine. I currently have a Mac Mini and its nice and the OS X works fine, but Windows 7 is equal in every way to OS X. Either you have never used Win 7 or you are biased.
I love Apple, (I'm an investor) but you guys need to wake up. Windows 7 is a rock solid OS.
Go back to those installs a few months/years later, then see what the situation is and how many issues the owners had. I've done a ton of installs myself, and though things may be fine initially they have a tendency to starts degrading and for shit to start hitting the fan with error msges, weird behavior after updates, corrupted drivers, etc.
To reply to the original topic, I haven't seen any battery issues on my Mid-2009 MacBook after all of the spotlight indexing is done. Seems to run as well or better than before.
I finally got help from Apple support on the phone. This fixed some of my connection problems, however, I still have performance problems. Sometimes it seems to take forever just to display a message.
Mountain Lion has been great for me- definitely faster- although I really don't use any of the new features really...
The only bug I've had was that my 2010 iMac won't wake up from sleep when I try to access my iTunes for my Apple TV3s. It did the day before Lion, and it doesnt work on any of the 3- so the only difference is Mountain Lion. Seems like I'm the only one who has this problem. :-(
While I do fundamentally understand "how" battery life could be effected by a software upgrade, I do find it extremely implausible that it would actually happen. Other than Apps/Programs running constantly it just doesn't make sense.
This is, I think, a user case scenario.
I don't mean to come off as dissmissive, but I literally haven't studied in detail how software and batteries work.
Trust me, some users (I hate saying users) don't even know what's actually running on their device.
Also, after having to do a "clean install", you will be further stricken from the record on opposing operating systems.
I have a great memory. One that hurts me more than helps me. It's photographic.
I didn't have to do a clean install as Lion ran really well, especially after the RAM upgrade. I did it because I'd run out of suggestions to try and improve my battery life.
What I find odd is that you find it implausible that new software can't inadvertently affect battery life.
But I agree with you on on one thing, it's to some extent based a user's actions as well as a software/hardware interaction. This is why I think I'm having worst battery performance because my behaviour hasn't changed.
My battery is at 81%, I only use 1 step brightness, wifi, no bluetooth and most of the time only run Apple's software Safari (no flash) , iTunes with no login programs. I don't have encrypted drives, time machine is off and I don't have any mapped network drives.
Your just plain lying and spreading false information. Of course some people after a year have some issues with their Windows installations, especially if you install too many of those patches.
But you folks forget the same thing happens with OX 10 upgrades and fixes.
Look at the battery issues with Mountain Lion. Please you guys need to realize big companies run their entire business on Windows based computers. I work for an engineering firm with 15,000 employees and 95 percent of all the computers in our company are Windows based. If Windows was not stable or reliable they would not be so prevalent. Windows PC's are everywhere. Look I am a AAPL stock holder and Apple makes some nice produces and does a great job of integrating their hardware with their software, but the Windows OS for better or worst will remain the dominate way businesses conduct their work. Maybe, Apple can make a beachhead with their tablet devices but were talking many years from now.
If Windows was not stable or reliable they would not be so prevalent. Windows PC's are everywhere.
No, Windows is prevalent because it's prevalent. A piece of software that has marketshare built on tautology won't withstand more than a single large blow.
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
Sure I can. There are measured tests that show a distinct difference in battery life using the same HW. You can argue that Apple's BootCamp drivers aren't as good as their Mac OS drivers but that's part of the reason why Macs perform better. Apple designs their PCs and OS so they have control over how the power is managed. They also have a very small number of products to test for compared to all major OEMs and MS. I'm not sure why you would discount this. It's this advantage that makes Macs that much better than the competition. You've also only mentioned drivers without any mention of how the Windows itself could simply be less efficient than Mac OS.
I didn't say you could make a comparison, I just said it's not quite fair. I am arguing exactly that Apple's BootCamp drivers are poorer than they could be. The graphics switching on the rMBP isn't even enabled. Running off the dGPU will hurt battery life significantly. They're not selling Windows PC's so they don't probably care. At this point, BootCamp is just a treat from Apple. I wouldn't be surprised if they dropped it soon. Macs generally have better power management for exactly the reasons you state: they can optimize for their limited hardware models.
I'm also not discounting the fact that Windows may be slightly less battery inclined than OS X, for the simple reason that they have to support a swath of hardware and optimization doesn't occur to the same level as Apple's.
With all that said, I'm not sure we're disagreeing.
I haven't had any issues on my '11 MBP either. Battery life actually seems to be improved for me slightly. Nevertheless, I'm sure Apple will have an update soon.
If I have any complaint it's that Mail seems sluggish. I've removed a lot of messages from IMAP which seems to have made it better but IMO this shouldn't be an issue with a local app with cached mail that isn't even open.
A couple things to consider:
Unless you can assure me that Windows drivers from MS or the OEMs are significantly better on non-Mac HW then my point stands. It's the union of HW and SW that helps make Macs that much better than Win PCs.
It's irrelevant that MS has a daunting challenge of orchestrating even decent driver support across all the possible HW that use their OS because that is the market they choose to be in. If the Windows experience is worse for it the blame falls on them.
The same goes for the iPhone. There is a reason the iPhone can last as long or longer than most Android phones with significantly larger batteries. Some of it Android-based vendors are using some power hungry components to attract users who buy on spec but that doesn't account for all of it as most Android-based phones are not being sold to such a crowd.
Close Chrome and force your GfxStatus to stick to the Integrate Gfx. Gfx is an amazing app. Hopefully Cody will improve Apple's switching.
Chrome is a disaster for power efficiency. Its one-site-fits-all for Flash is stupid. Why load a plug-in or demand those resources when they are not required?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
Unless you can assure me that Windows drivers from MS or the OEMs are significantly better on non-Mac HW then my point stands. It's the union of HW and SW that helps make Macs that much better than Win PCs.
It's irrelevant that MS has a daunting challenge of orchestrating even decent driver support across all the possible HW that use their OS because that is the market they choose to be in. If the Windows experience is worse for it the blame falls on them.
The same goes for the iPhone. There is a reason the iPhone can last as long or longer than most Android phones with significantly larger batteries. Some of it Android-based vendors are using some power hungry components to attract users who buy on spec but that doesn't account for all of it as most Android-based phones are not being sold to such a crowd.
I'm still not sure what point you're making. OS X and Macs were made for each other. If it doesn't have better battery life, then there's a problem.
What I'm saying is that comparing battery life of an Apple OS on an Apple machine with the battery life of a non-Apple OS on an Apple machine using Apple drivers can only be used for ballpark figures.
Actually, in over 90 percent of the Windows XP and Win 7 installs I have either completed myself I never had any problems. All the drivers were there and everything works fine. I currently have a Mac Mini and its nice and the OS X works fine, but Windows 7 is equal in every way to OS X. Either you have never used Win 7 or you are biased.
I love Apple, (I'm an investor) but you guys need to wake up. Windows 7 is a rock solid OS.
This seems rather appropriate now
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
Nope, not ballpark. You can get consistent and precise measurements as to how efficient any OS is on any HW with a specific battery size or power draw. This is not debatable!
Before there were Intel Macs people claimed that Windows was more efficient than Macs but because Apple used different architecture there was no way to test a direct comparison. Now we can! And note that many of the drivers for Windows on a Mac are not from Apple. They are from component vendors or from MS. But all that's beside the point because it's ultimately up to MS to make sure the user experience and performance of their OS is good so if they don't want to make better any drivers directly from Apple you claim are purposely insufficient it's not up to Apple since they don't sell Windows PCs.
This is really cut and dry. Since drivers between Windows and Mac OS will always be different you are just saying that you can never compare the two. That's bullshit!
Of course you can make determinations on the battery life of two specific OSs on one set of specific hardware with respect to running on that specific hardware and driver set. I don't need to contend that their driver support is worse for Windows on Mac. It's true. No graphics switching on Windows is an inferior experience. It's also an indication of inferior hardware support for Windows on their hardware and will by extension hurt the battery life with other OSs. Lastly, it's absolutely up to Apple for better driver support for Macs running Windows if a fair comparison is to be made. If Apple says they support Windows on Mac then it's up to them for the drivers. And Apple has released drivers for Windows. We just know that they're not up to the task for testing OS X vs Windows battery life beyond a ballpark measure. That's completely fine, Apple didn't make any proclamations that Windows would run well, just run.
Edit: Just to clarify, I don't believe Apple has any obligation to release any special drivers for Windows using their special graphics switching software(or however the switching is done) just that it's hard to compare battery life figures when the hardware manufacturer supports different configurations on different supported OSs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vadania
I'm really starting to like your objectivity. Good call! As we say in Boston, "Cool Beans!"
Actually, I'm very interested. You haven't had a "single" problem? Do you do multi-monitor work?
I'm also being trivial here, (very, very trivial) but did you notice more screen savers yet fewer screen saver options?
...and before some one rides my case about just screen savers. There's more than that.
No, I don't really do multi monitor work. When working I have my air connected to a 26" display in closed lid mode. I've read that ML handles multiple monitors better than Lion but no 1st hand experience. I'd its an extremely small percentage of mac users that use multiple monitors, so even if its not optimal I'd say its irrelevant for most. I think there's a few more screensaver options, and a new section called slideshows, which has 14 options using photos with different transitions. Either way I don't use a screensaver, I think its a waste of power and my monitor just shuts off after a few min.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur123
Actually, in over 90 percent of the Windows XP and Win 7 installs I have either completed myself I never had any problems. All the drivers were there and everything works fine. I currently have a Mac Mini and its nice and the OS X works fine, but Windows 7 is equal in every way to OS X. Either you have never used Win 7 or you are biased.
I love Apple, (I'm an investor) but you guys need to wake up. Windows 7 is a rock solid OS.
Go back to those installs a few months/years later, then see what the situation is and how many issues the owners had. I've done a ton of installs myself, and though things may be fine initially they have a tendency to starts degrading and for shit to start hitting the fan with error msges, weird behavior after updates, corrupted drivers, etc.
To reply to the original topic, I haven't seen any battery issues on my Mid-2009 MacBook after all of the spotlight indexing is done. Seems to run as well or better than before.
Re Mail
I finally got help from Apple support on the phone. This fixed some of my connection problems, however, I still have performance problems. Sometimes it seems to take forever just to display a message.
Mountain Lion has been great for me- definitely faster- although I really don't use any of the new features really...
The only bug I've had was that my 2010 iMac won't wake up from sleep when I try to access my iTunes for my Apple TV3s. It did the day before Lion, and it doesnt work on any of the 3- so the only difference is Mountain Lion. Seems like I'm the only one who has this problem. :-(
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vadania
While I do fundamentally understand "how" battery life could be effected by a software upgrade, I do find it extremely implausible that it would actually happen. Other than Apps/Programs running constantly it just doesn't make sense.
This is, I think, a user case scenario.
I don't mean to come off as dissmissive, but I literally haven't studied in detail how software and batteries work.
Trust me, some users (I hate saying users) don't even know what's actually running on their device.
Also, after having to do a "clean install", you will be further stricken from the record on opposing operating systems.
I have a great memory. One that hurts me more than helps me. It's photographic.
I didn't have to do a clean install as Lion ran really well, especially after the RAM upgrade. I did it because I'd run out of suggestions to try and improve my battery life.
What I find odd is that you find it implausible that new software can't inadvertently affect battery life.
But I agree with you on on one thing, it's to some extent based a user's actions as well as a software/hardware interaction. This is why I think I'm having worst battery performance because my behaviour hasn't changed.
My battery is at 81%, I only use 1 step brightness, wifi, no bluetooth and most of the time only run Apple's software Safari (no flash) , iTunes with no login programs. I don't have encrypted drives, time machine is off and I don't have any mapped network drives.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mazda 3s
This seems rather appropriate now
So original.... NOT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Your just plain lying and spreading false information. Of course some people after a year have some issues with their Windows installations, especially if you install too many of those patches.
But you folks forget the same thing happens with OX 10 upgrades and fixes.
Look at the battery issues with Mountain Lion. Please you guys need to realize big companies run their entire business on Windows based computers. I work for an engineering firm with 15,000 employees and 95 percent of all the computers in our company are Windows based. If Windows was not stable or reliable they would not be so prevalent. Windows PC's are everywhere. Look I am a AAPL stock holder and Apple makes some nice produces and does a great job of integrating their hardware with their software, but the Windows OS for better or worst will remain the dominate way businesses conduct their work. Maybe, Apple can make a beachhead with their tablet devices but were talking many years from now.
So Slurpy, people in the Mac OS X world don't do re-installs? You make me laugh!
Originally Posted by Arthur123
If Windows was not stable or reliable they would not be so prevalent. Windows PC's are everywhere.
No, Windows is prevalent because it's prevalent. A piece of software that has marketshare built on tautology won't withstand more than a single large blow.