Apple licenses the cores from ARM and then they bought PA Semi to do the design of the SoC. Imagination Tech was bought for its graphics core. Actually Apple made a lame effort to have Taiwan Semi build the A class chips, but their fab was not up to specs. With $120B in cash, there is no excuse to get multiple sources for the fab, or build their own plant. The ROC or ROI can not be worse than treasuries.
There is no excuse for Apple to settle. Not with their importance in tech today, their money, and all the opportunity in the world to go it alone and succeed like no one else has.
No settlement! There is NO incentive for one. Neither financially, nor in terms of consumers (who don't care, anyway), nor in terms of IP. There needs to be a clear JUDGMENT in this case. Once and for all. And if Apple believes they can win this long-term, then they should by all means continue. At least then we'll get CLARITY, and hopefully precedent that will more easily govern similar patent disputes in the future.
A settlement at this point, after all that has happened, will be a WASTE. Both in terms of moving patent law and the adjudication of patent disputes forward, and in connection with that, providing everyone with some clarity.
If Tim Cook *does* agree to settle, I would be VERY interested to see those terms. Because there *is* an outside chance that he'd be giving the farm away. Apple, in my view, has to think about the long-term effects of this case, in terms of the future integrity of their IP. I think that taking a short term view in order to just focus on their relationship with Samsung, and the future of *that* relationship is sheer folly. I'll question any move Apple makes that is contrary to the fundamental philosophy that got them to where they are today.
These two companies are so closely tied together Apple should be able to gain from Samsung a public acknowledgment and large settlement, along with a cross-licensing agreement (similar to the one with Microsoft, where they're not allowed to clone Apple's products) in exchange for Apple's continued reliance on Samsung for future parts.
Samsung's long-term success should be it's CEOs primary concern. If they know they're in the wrong here, there shouldn't be too much of a hit to honour or ego in taking this approach and they can move on by empowering their designers to blaze new trails.
If it hasn't happened in three rounds of pre suit talks it won't now. Apples patents are non SEP so they can't be forced to license them and likely won't at this point. And they sure won't link that issue to production contracts.
For Samsung, they say they didn't do anything wrong. They arent about to admit it. They want a jury to say the design patents are invalid and their SEP terms were FRAND.
Apple should understand that message is already delivered to Android camp. By stretching this case, they risk many things, a, Risk of patents being held invalid b, Risk of scope of patents getting too narrowed to avoid copy cat products c, Risk of very less damage award. It will have an opposite effect of what Apple wants.
What message? That Apple will sue, so what. It won't stop the copying attempts. What Apple needs is a victory. Thus giving out the message Apple will sue and very likely win, so why risk it.
Judge Koh screwed Apple with her jury instructions, either because she's more interested in how she herself comes across in the trial than she is in getting a jury verdict that actually just... or because she thinks screwing Apple forces them to the bargaining counter. Either way, it was a sad moment for the American judicial system.
If either side believes there was bias they will appeal. If Apple loses and they believe this lak of instruction was the issue, they will appeal.
We didn't hear the actual testimony to know if Apple was allowed to question anyone about the lack of emails. If they were, if they even got it said with an objection from Samsung, the instruction might not be needed since let's face it even if the Judge tells them to disregard the question, they heard it.
most of the circuitry in the A class CPU's is designed by Samsung
until apple makes their own CPU from scratch they have to buy from samsung
That is absolutely incorrect apple bought 3 semiconductor companies and brought there entire staffs in-house. The A series chips are designed completely in house by apple and start from an ARM Cortex-A9 MPCore CPU to which apple adds custom layout and other silicon to such as the PowerVR SGX543MP2 GPU with NEONSIMD accelerator and an "earSmart" unit from Audience for noise canceling. Plus custom memory effects and pipes for there particular application, ARM holdings makes the basic cpu for license to anyone, Imagination Technologies makes the graphics portion, earsmart is made by Audience. Notice that Samsung owns none of those they do not make them or design them. The only thing that Samsung does is manufacture the the A Series chips. Period. The design layout and combination of the licensed technology in the A5 is completely apples design. In fact samsung has started licensing and using arm cpus from arm holdings now as well.
I wish people would stop regurgitating the same old "samsung builds the iphone crap" Because it simply is not true.
Can't pick that bone without teeth, and concrete proof of Samsung's copyist nonsense is the teeth they need.
The biggest gamble is, what if Apple loses? Juries do strange things. We've all written this case off as a slam dunk for Apple (and it should be) but what if...
That is absolutely incorrect apple bought 3 semiconductor companies and brought there entire staffs in-house. The A series chips are designed completely in house by apple and start from an ARM Cortex-A9 MPCore CPU to which apple adds custom layout and other silicon to such as the PowerVR SGX543MP2 GPU with NEONSIMD accelerator and an "earSmart" unit from Audience for noise canceling. Plus custom memory effects and pipes for there particular application, ARM holdings makes the basic cpu for license to anyone, Imagination Technologies makes the graphics portion, earsmart is made by Audience. Notice that Samsung owns none of those they do not make them or design them. The only thing that Samsung does is manufacture the the A Series chips. Period. The design layout and combination of the licensed technology in the A5 is completely apples design. In fact samsung has started licensing and using arm cpus from arm holdings now as well.
I wish people would stop regurgitating the same old "samsung builds the iphone crap" Because it simply is not true.
The biggest gamble is, what if Apple loses? Juries do strange things. We've all written this case off as a slam dunk for Apple (and it should be) but what if...
This thread is so full of trolling. If you look at everything that was claimed, it's not possible to say "slam dunk" without some legal understanding. The articles themselves generate a lot of uninformed comments where posters rather than looking for how something might be interpreted by a given legal standard, project how they think something should work. "Slam dunk" is also a dumb thing to say when you have an entire matrix of claims. Note some of the prior graphics posted on here indicating which claims were applied to which devices and the inclusion of Samsung's FRAND dispute included within the case. To just figure this is as simple as all in or out shows a lack of willingness to even consider anything you've read.
Agreed. If Apple truly believes in why it started this in the first place, it should unrelentingly stay the course. Either put the copyists out to pasture for good -- the dollar sum of compensatory damages is irrelevant -- or take it on the chin. Either way, it will be an unambiguous signal of what to do next, instead of the "let's hold hands and get to finish line" nonsense which merely kicks the can down the road.
Given all that has transpired, I believe strongly that Samsung will be swatted down like a fly by this jury.
The advantage of settling is to not publish the terms. Both Samsung and Apple can benefit from that. Both parties can get a global solution rather than risking looking like petulant children. In the end, the two companies still need to work together.
most of the circuitry in the A class CPU's is designed by Samsung
until apple makes their own CPU from scratch they have to buy from samsung
Correction... Apple designed the A series chips. Samsung merely fabricates them for them.
Apple bought P.A. Semiconductor, so they could do this
The original iPhone chip was a Samsung designed chip though , so you're right there.
Technically, Apple could leave them if they wanted to ( at some major cost to margins if they did it in a hurry )... it was rumored even that Intel proposed to make ARM chips for them in 2011.
The new Texas instruments facility in ( Austin I think it was? ) is rumored to be making the A6 or some of them anyway. Don't know if that was substantiated ever. Seems unlikely for them to be ready yet if it's true.
The thing about Samsung is that Apple has a fantastic deal with them... Apple gets their CPU's *and* memory, flash memory, and displays from Samsung and prepays massive contracts with them...in exchange for a significant discount.
Even if Apple loses this suit, IMO Samsung ultimately loses... Apple will shift their components away from Samsung as "punishment" when they can (maybe not right away). They're doing it to Google with mapping and search, and they're probably going to do it to Samsung too.
I'm not sure Samsung really wants that to happen. Apple clearly has the upper hand there.
Yet if Apple has tried to strong arm, they haven't been successful so far.
Comments
Here's a transcript of the phone call:
Tim: Kwon, good to talk to you again. I want you to know that I really hate litigation.
Kwon: Yes Tim, let's resolve this to our mutual satisfaction.
Tim: Stop making Android phones
Kwon: LOL
Tim: See you in court forever
That's right - when someone your close with copies your work and profits from it - just ignore it and keep moving forward.
Great advice.
Apple licenses the cores from ARM and then they bought PA Semi to do the design of the SoC. Imagination Tech was bought for its graphics core. Actually Apple made a lame effort to have Taiwan Semi build the A class chips, but their fab was not up to specs. With $120B in cash, there is no excuse to get multiple sources for the fab, or build their own plant. The ROC or ROI can not be worse than treasuries.
It's like Reagan and Gorbachev coming together…
Talk, talk, talk is better than war,war,war.
There is no excuse for Apple to settle. Not with their importance in tech today, their money, and all the opportunity in the world to go it alone and succeed like no one else has.
No settlement! There is NO incentive for one. Neither financially, nor in terms of consumers (who don't care, anyway), nor in terms of IP. There needs to be a clear JUDGMENT in this case. Once and for all. And if Apple believes they can win this long-term, then they should by all means continue. At least then we'll get CLARITY, and hopefully precedent that will more easily govern similar patent disputes in the future.
A settlement at this point, after all that has happened, will be a WASTE. Both in terms of moving patent law and the adjudication of patent disputes forward, and in connection with that, providing everyone with some clarity.
If Tim Cook *does* agree to settle, I would be VERY interested to see those terms. Because there *is* an outside chance that he'd be giving the farm away. Apple, in my view, has to think about the long-term effects of this case, in terms of the future integrity of their IP. I think that taking a short term view in order to just focus on their relationship with Samsung, and the future of *that* relationship is sheer folly. I'll question any move Apple makes that is contrary to the fundamental philosophy that got them to where they are today.
Have a look here:
http://forums.appleinsider.com/t/152030/ipad-demand-expected-to-contribute-to-hps-largest-ever-quarterly-loss
iPad DEMAND.
DEMAND for Apple gear. Everywhere you look, it's all about Apple. Apple Apple Apple.
All that cachet and reputation Apple has built over the years is due to the integrity of their IP and their willingness to stand up and defend it.
If it hasn't happened in three rounds of pre suit talks it won't now. Apples patents are non SEP so they can't be forced to license them and likely won't at this point. And they sure won't link that issue to production contracts.
For Samsung, they say they didn't do anything wrong. They arent about to admit it. They want a jury to say the design patents are invalid and their SEP terms were FRAND.
What message? That Apple will sue, so what. It won't stop the copying attempts. What Apple needs is a victory. Thus giving out the message Apple will sue and very likely win, so why risk it.
Cook: "Wassup Oh Hyun?"
Kwon: "Yo Timaaaaaayyyyyy! Way to go on the stock market, bro. Sell me some shares at $500?"
Cook: "Would if I could. Hey listen. Judge wants us to talk. Again."
Kwon: "I feel like a broken record. Same offer. Split the diff. 2.5 billion minus 400 million is 2.1 billion for you."
Cook: "Still can't do it. We need to set an example. Sorry it had to be Samsung, buddy."
Kwon: "Had to ask. But yeah, you're right. Anyway, how's the wife and kids?"
Cook: "Awesome. Hope your family is doing great too. Gotta run, boss. Talk again soon."
Kwon: "Laters."
If either side believes there was bias they will appeal. If Apple loses and they believe this lak of instruction was the issue, they will appeal.
We didn't hear the actual testimony to know if Apple was allowed to question anyone about the lack of emails. If they were, if they even got it said with an objection from Samsung, the instruction might not be needed since let's face it even if the Judge tells them to disregard the question, they heard it.
Have a hunch it will settle because Apple has a MUCH BIGGER BONE to pick with Google/Moto.
Originally Posted by MJ Web
Have a hunch it will settle because Apple has a MUCH BIGGER BONE to pick with Google/Moto.
Can't pick that bone without teeth, and concrete proof of Samsung's copyist nonsense is the teeth they need.
Quote:
Originally Posted by al_bundy
most of the circuitry in the A class CPU's is designed by Samsung
until apple makes their own CPU from scratch they have to buy from samsung
That is absolutely incorrect apple bought 3 semiconductor companies and brought there entire staffs in-house. The A series chips are designed completely in house by apple and start from an ARM Cortex-A9 MPCore CPU to which apple adds custom layout and other silicon to such as the PowerVR SGX543MP2 GPU with NEON SIMD accelerator and an "earSmart" unit from Audience for noise canceling. Plus custom memory effects and pipes for there particular application, ARM holdings makes the basic cpu for license to anyone, Imagination Technologies makes the graphics portion, earsmart is made by Audience. Notice that Samsung owns none of those they do not make them or design them. The only thing that Samsung does is manufacture the the A Series chips. Period. The design layout and combination of the licensed technology in the A5 is completely apples design. In fact samsung has started licensing and using arm cpus from arm holdings now as well.
I wish people would stop regurgitating the same old "samsung builds the iphone crap" Because it simply is not true.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
Can't pick that bone without teeth, and concrete proof of Samsung's copyist nonsense is the teeth they need.
The biggest gamble is, what if Apple loses? Juries do strange things. We've all written this case off as a slam dunk for Apple (and it should be) but what if...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mechanic
That is absolutely incorrect apple bought 3 semiconductor companies and brought there entire staffs in-house. The A series chips are designed completely in house by apple and start from an ARM Cortex-A9 MPCore CPU to which apple adds custom layout and other silicon to such as the PowerVR SGX543MP2 GPU with NEON SIMD accelerator and an "earSmart" unit from Audience for noise canceling. Plus custom memory effects and pipes for there particular application, ARM holdings makes the basic cpu for license to anyone, Imagination Technologies makes the graphics portion, earsmart is made by Audience. Notice that Samsung owns none of those they do not make them or design them. The only thing that Samsung does is manufacture the the A Series chips. Period. The design layout and combination of the licensed technology in the A5 is completely apples design. In fact samsung has started licensing and using arm cpus from arm holdings now as well.
I wish people would stop regurgitating the same old "samsung builds the iphone crap" Because it simply is not true.
That's the A5 yes, for the A4 it was true.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thataveragejoe
The biggest gamble is, what if Apple loses? Juries do strange things. We've all written this case off as a slam dunk for Apple (and it should be) but what if...
This thread is so full of trolling. If you look at everything that was claimed, it's not possible to say "slam dunk" without some legal understanding. The articles themselves generate a lot of uninformed comments where posters rather than looking for how something might be interpreted by a given legal standard, project how they think something should work. "Slam dunk" is also a dumb thing to say when you have an entire matrix of claims. Note some of the prior graphics posted on here indicating which claims were applied to which devices and the inclusion of Samsung's FRAND dispute included within the case. To just figure this is as simple as all in or out shows a lack of willingness to even consider anything you've read.
Quote:
Originally Posted by al_bundy
most of the circuitry in the A class CPU's is designed by Samsung
until apple makes their own CPU from scratch they have to buy from samsung
#next_pages_container { width: 5px; hight: 5px; position: absolute; top: -100px; left: -100px; z-index: 2147483647 !important; }Isn't that what they're doing now?
#next_pages_container { width: 5px; hight: 5px; position: absolute; top: -100px; left: -100px; z-index: 2147483647 !important; }
#next_pages_container { width: 5px; hight: 5px; position: absolute; top: -100px; left: -100px; z-index: 2147483647 !important; }
The advantage of settling is to not publish the terms. Both Samsung and Apple can benefit from that. Both parties can get a global solution rather than risking looking like petulant children. In the end, the two companies still need to work together.
Quote:
Originally Posted by al_bundy
most of the circuitry in the A class CPU's is designed by Samsung
until apple makes their own CPU from scratch they have to buy from samsung
Correction... Apple designed the A series chips. Samsung merely fabricates them for them.
Apple bought P.A. Semiconductor, so they could do this
The original iPhone chip was a Samsung designed chip though , so you're right there.
Technically, Apple could leave them if they wanted to ( at some major cost to margins if they did it in a hurry )... it was rumored even that Intel proposed to make ARM chips for them in 2011.
The new Texas instruments facility in ( Austin I think it was? ) is rumored to be making the A6 or some of them anyway. Don't know if that was substantiated ever. Seems unlikely for them to be ready yet if it's true.
The thing about Samsung is that Apple has a fantastic deal with them... Apple gets their CPU's *and* memory, flash memory, and displays from Samsung and prepays massive contracts with them...in exchange for a significant discount.
Even if Apple loses this suit, IMO Samsung ultimately loses... Apple will shift their components away from Samsung as "punishment" when they can (maybe not right away). They're doing it to Google with mapping and search, and they're probably going to do it to Samsung too.
I'm not sure Samsung really wants that to happen. Apple clearly has the upper hand there.
Yet if Apple has tried to strong arm, they haven't been successful so far.
We'll see what happens I guess!
Nah, UFC Cage Match!. Two CEOs enter, only one leaves alive. On pay-per-view and Web streaming.