Bull. Bottom line is that if I want to own a copy of the music I have to forget iTunes and their ever-changing service terms, and go and buy the CD. End of story, I don't need to negotiate anything with anybody, I just need to go to the store, the old-fashioned way.
<...>
1) In a distant future, you will not be able to buy a CD reader, because it will no longer exist
2) in a future which is closer to this (and not as distant as you would imagine) your CD will be corrupted, and unreadable
Some other comments have already made about Apple term of service . I confess I am too lazzy (and not sufficiently aware about legal matters) to check whether the answer to the question is already there or not (probably yes). Anyway, the rights about music expire about a certain period of time (too complex for me to elaborate on this issue, as well). Therefore, the tricky question which could be raised to Apple could be : ho do you manage to turn the "bought AAC" files into simple "AAC" files after this period ?
I am sure Apple engineers would be able to find a way to address this technical issue ....
I'm not sure Apple had a whole lot to do with this—it probably has more to do with the will of the record labels—but this is something which should change, so more power to him.
That's what I've always done. Usually higher audio quality, gives me a backup to restore from if I have a big hard disk failure, it CAN be passed on to my kids and at least for catalog product, is usually far less expensive with many classic albums going for as little as $3.50. And that's aside from getting decent liner notes and in some cases, really nice packaging.
However, with Apple eliminating DVD/CD drives from their computers, it puts a little dent in this strategy, although I suppose you could still get an external drive.
But having said that, what stops me from giving my MP3 collection to my daughter? If I transferred all my MP3 files from my machine to my daughter's machine, they wouldn't work? I thought Apple eliminated DRM for most tracks, but even with DRM, you could make at least one copy. And couldn't Bruce simply "transfer" the music to his kids by leaving them his account ID in any case?
Aside from the fact that the EULA that you sign specifically says that you do NOT own the music.
More importantly, Willis should know better. He's in the entertainment business and the license for his movies is very similar.
You might be surprised. Today's kids have a much broader taste in music than you might think - possibly broader than any recent generation. My daughter is 13 and she listens to the Grateful Dead, Beatles, Guns N Roses, Led Zeppelin, Rolling Stones, and many more of the classic rock bands in addition to her own newer music.
Not that it changes anything. Whether the kids like the music or not doesn't affect any of the issues here.
So you simply want to parade your ignorance. Feel free.
Hint: you do not own the music on a CD. If you did, you could legally give it away to anyone you want. You could record it in any way that you want. In reality, you have neither of those options. You purchase the physical media and the right to play the music solely for personal, noncommercial use.
Even the transfer is not all that different. If your CD gets scratched and becomes unplayable, you do not get a new CD. You lose "your" music. With iTunes, if your computer crashes, you still have the right to install the music onto the replacement computer - so iTunes is even more forgiving in some ways. Also, iTunes allows you to make up to 5 copies on 5 different computers for your own personal use. With a CD, you can not legally do that. You're allowed one backup for archival purposes.
More bull.
I have 30 year old CDs, all still playable. If I scratch them, my problem. Though if I was concerned about it I would make backups, legally as you point out.
Where does do the Terms of Service (It's not even an EULA, FYI), state specifically that I do not own my copy of the music? The Terms make liberal use of the word "purchase". Have you read the Terms?
Hint to you, a CD is a license for personal use, but it is not denominated. I can give the CD to anybody and that transfers the license automatically. You could say I own the use license, and thus I can do whatever I want with it. On iTunes I don't even own the use and it's actually worse because the Terms explicitly say that they Apple can cancel the service at any time for any reason and without notice:
Quote:
APPLE DOES NOT GUARANTEE, REPRESENT, OR WARRANT THAT YOUR USE OF THE ITUNES SERVICE WILL BE UNINTERRUPTED OR ERROR-FREE, AND YOU AGREE THAT FROM TIME TO TIME APPLE MAY REMOVE THE ITUNES SERVICE FOR INDEFINITE PERIODS OF TIME, OR CANCEL THE ITUNES SERVICE AT ANY TIME, WITHOUT NOTICE TO YOU.
So basically it is pointless to read the Terms of Service because they give you no rights at all.
I think the Europeans have the right idea ;-) In other words, the spirit of the First Sale Doctrine DOES still apply in the digital age. Especially in those cases where a person can sell or transfer their license to a digital product to another person after making their purchase (such as leaving the person their purchases in a Will.)
As long as something tangible (like a license) is being TRANSFERRED and not COPIED, then we revert back to the first sale doctrine before the digitial age, and I think it should be permitted. (Obviously when when a person dies they no longer are able to use their purchases, so this is a transfer and not a copy.)
100% behind you. However in the USA, the courts are currently split, likely because in Europe the consumer is put first, but in the USA, companies often are.
The argument is that since you never own the music file, you have no rights to transfer it. In fact you agreed to a license specifically taking away your rights before you received the file.
I hope this goes to the Supreme court and common sense prevails there as it did in the past with physical copyright objects, and has done in Europe with software licenses. Until then, this is rather gray area.
There only thing definite is that there is a clear cut difference between a CD and a digital file: The CD has protected transfer rights. The digital file has an unknown history ahead of it.
Bull. Bottom line is that if I want to own a copy of the music I have to forget iTunes and their ever-changing service terms, and go and buy the CD. End of story, I don't need to negotiate anything with anybody, I just need to go to the store, the old-fashioned way.
Like I said above, I am reverting to CD buying till this thing is settled. As it is, it's a public relations clusterfrack for Apple.
In terms of actual ownership you don't 'own' the music on that CD anymore than you 'own' the music you purchase from Apple or Amazon. The only difference in ownership is that you happen to own a physical object in the event of a CD. Both Apple and Amazon sell music which is DRM-free. Regardless of the EULA, they're not going to remotely disable those files. You can maintain them as long as you choose to do so. So the difference is nothing near what you choose to believe it in. You're just paying less attention to the 'ownership' of music delivered in one form over that of another while neither of which are enforced on a material level where your home is concerned.
Back to good ol' Bruce, he certainly could pass that music on to her. But passing on his account, or merging his account into hers, in the event of his death, is a slightly different story. And then there is the actual language regarding that account which implies something more in literal reading.
1) In a distant future, you will not be able to buy a CD reader, because it will no longer exist
2) in a future which is closer to this (and not as distant as you would imagine) your CD will be corrupted, and unreadable
1. In the very distant future, maybe, but in the immediate distant future, no, because every Blu-ray drive can read both DVDs and CDs and the next generation of 4k or 8k video formats will also still maintain compatibility with DVD and CD. And long before CDs are resigned to the trash heap of media history, you'll be able to copy them faster and with even more ease than you can already do today.
2. B.S. I have CDs that are from the beginning of the format, almost 30 years old, and they still play perfectly. There's no reason why commercially pressed CDs that are stored in their cases shouldn't last at least 100 years. Even vinyl LPs produced in the 1950s and now 60 years old, if handled properly, still play relatively fine today. CD-Rs are another matter. I already have CD-Rs less than 10 years old that won't play anymore.
If you want to make an argument about the decline of the CD format, you can make one that says that within ten years, the major labels will largely stop producing CDs as CD sales are now at 25% of their 1999 peak.
In terms of actual ownership you don't 'own' the music on that CD anymore than you 'own' the music you purchase from Apple or Amazon. The only difference in ownership is that you happen to own a physical object in the event of a CD. Both Apple and Amazon sell music which is DRM-free. Regardless of the EULA, they're not going to remotely disable those files. You can maintain them as long as you choose to do so. So the difference is nothing near what you choose to believe it in. You're just paying less attention to the 'ownership' of music delivered in one form over that of another while neither of which are enforced on a material level where your home is concerned.
Back to good ol' Bruce, he certainly could pass that music on to her. But passing on his account, or merging his account into hers, in the event of his death, is a slightly different story. And then there is the actual language regarding that account which implies something more in literal reading.
The language gives Apple the right to disable his children's accounts if he passes the files to them, since it is a use outside the Terms of Service. I agree that this is not likely under current competitive market conditions, but times change and the point would be to nip this in the bud.
I have 30 year old CDs, all still playable. If I scratch them, my problem. Though if I was concerned about it I would make backups, legally as you point out.
Where does do the Terms of Service (It's not even an EULA, FYI), state specifically that I do not own my copy of the music? The Terms make liberal use of the word "purchase". Have you read the Terms?
Hint to you, a CD is a license for personal use, but it is not denominated. I can give the CD to anybody and that transfers the license automatically. You could say I own the use license, and thus I can do whatever I want with it. On iTunes I don't even own the use and it's actually worse because the Terms explicitly say that they Apple can cancel the service at any time for any reason and without notice:
So basically it is pointless to read the Terms of Service because they give you no rights at all.
have to say i agree i buy 3-4 albums/movies a month not to mention apps and and to think when i go they just disapear into the either and cant be accessed by my son is insane. think i will have to start buying elsewhere and just transferring to itunes instead of buying from apple, until this whole mess is resolved.
Great idea, and never too early to start. I refuse to purchase music on iTunes even though I own several apple devices. I purchase all my music on Amazon.com. DRM free and very easy to transfer into iTunes after the fact. Until Apple lets me load music onto non-Apple devices after I purchase it, then I will not make purchases from them.
I usually browse for new music on iTunes because you get much longer song previews and the quality of the preview streaming is better. But once I find something I want to buy it's off to Amazon.com to make the purchase.
You cannot merge two or more Apple IDs into a single one. You can, however, use one Apple ID for iCloud services and another Apple ID for store purchases (including iTunes in the Cloud and iTunes Match). See “Using one Apple ID for iCloud and a different Apple ID for Store Purchases” above for details.
Don't be dense, I own a copy, and I can give it to anyone I please at any time.
If you want to be legalistic, I own a non-denominated license for personal use in perpetuity. This is why I can transfer it freely to anybody else for their personal use. Music in an iTunes account is denominated and apparently not transferable, and this is why Willis could decide to sue.
Can you rip MP3s from that album for your computer/iPod/iPhone and still legally give the CD away? Without deleting the MP3s?
Steve Jobs told everyone how to get around this in the early days... it's not that hard.
Purchase an album, burn to CD, re-rip to iTunes -- poof! DRM-Free music.
The music industry will never sign-off on people "owning" the tracks they buy, so he'd better start buying blank CD's now.
Yep. And except for the tunes bought in the very early days of iTunes, all his tracks are DRM free. Copy them to a hard drive and they are safe from any "action" Apple might take to shut down his or their accounts.
This is a case where someone who REALLY worries what's legal or not will be inconvenienced, but the average guy won't notice. "So sad that our dad died, he had some cool music. Oh we can just copy the files and drag them into iTunes. Is that legal? Who cares, it works, just like if each of us rip a copy of his CDs."
On the other hand, the APPS he bought are history, unless one of his daughters will take over his account and manage it as if he we still alive (good luck with that in the long run).
We should be able to will or convey rights to digital music that we purchased. But only to one person.
In practical terms what is stopping you. They can't merge the stuff to their account but if they have your password they can change the name etc. unless you are someone famous or tell them, how is Apple going to know about the death.
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alonso Perez
Bull. Bottom line is that if I want to own a copy of the music I have to forget iTunes and their ever-changing service terms, and go and buy the CD. End of story, I don't need to negotiate anything with anybody, I just need to go to the store, the old-fashioned way.
<...>
1) In a distant future, you will not be able to buy a CD reader, because it will no longer exist
2) in a future which is closer to this (and not as distant as you would imagine) your CD will be corrupted, and unreadable
Some other comments have already made about Apple term of service . I confess I am too lazzy (and not sufficiently aware about legal matters) to check whether the answer to the question is already there or not (probably yes). Anyway, the rights about music expire about a certain period of time (too complex for me to elaborate on this issue, as well). Therefore, the tricky question which could be raised to Apple could be : ho do you manage to turn the "bought AAC" files into simple "AAC" files after this period ?
I am sure Apple engineers would be able to find a way to address this technical issue ....
Yeah... those dicks... trying to make the world a better place... jerks...
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonimo
Itunes s**ks... buy CDs instead.
That's what I've always done. Usually higher audio quality, gives me a backup to restore from if I have a big hard disk failure, it CAN be passed on to my kids and at least for catalog product, is usually far less expensive with many classic albums going for as little as $3.50. And that's aside from getting decent liner notes and in some cases, really nice packaging.
However, with Apple eliminating DVD/CD drives from their computers, it puts a little dent in this strategy, although I suppose you could still get an external drive.
But having said that, what stops me from giving my MP3 collection to my daughter? If I transferred all my MP3 files from my machine to my daughter's machine, they wouldn't work? I thought Apple eliminated DRM for most tracks, but even with DRM, you could make at least one copy. And couldn't Bruce simply "transfer" the music to his kids by leaving them his account ID in any case?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
Aside from the fact that the EULA that you sign specifically says that you do NOT own the music.
More importantly, Willis should know better. He's in the entertainment business and the license for his movies is very similar.
You might be surprised. Today's kids have a much broader taste in music than you might think - possibly broader than any recent generation. My daughter is 13 and she listens to the Grateful Dead, Beatles, Guns N Roses, Led Zeppelin, Rolling Stones, and many more of the classic rock bands in addition to her own newer music.
Not that it changes anything. Whether the kids like the music or not doesn't affect any of the issues here.
So you simply want to parade your ignorance. Feel free.
Hint: you do not own the music on a CD. If you did, you could legally give it away to anyone you want. You could record it in any way that you want. In reality, you have neither of those options. You purchase the physical media and the right to play the music solely for personal, noncommercial use.
Even the transfer is not all that different. If your CD gets scratched and becomes unplayable, you do not get a new CD. You lose "your" music. With iTunes, if your computer crashes, you still have the right to install the music onto the replacement computer - so iTunes is even more forgiving in some ways. Also, iTunes allows you to make up to 5 copies on 5 different computers for your own personal use. With a CD, you can not legally do that. You're allowed one backup for archival purposes.
More bull.
I have 30 year old CDs, all still playable. If I scratch them, my problem. Though if I was concerned about it I would make backups, legally as you point out.
Where does do the Terms of Service (It's not even an EULA, FYI), state specifically that I do not own my copy of the music? The Terms make liberal use of the word "purchase". Have you read the Terms?
Hint to you, a CD is a license for personal use, but it is not denominated. I can give the CD to anybody and that transfers the license automatically. You could say I own the use license, and thus I can do whatever I want with it. On iTunes I don't even own the use and it's actually worse because the Terms explicitly say that they Apple can cancel the service at any time for any reason and without notice:
Quote:
APPLE DOES NOT GUARANTEE, REPRESENT, OR WARRANT THAT YOUR USE OF THE ITUNES SERVICE WILL BE UNINTERRUPTED OR ERROR-FREE, AND YOU AGREE THAT FROM TIME TO TIME APPLE MAY REMOVE THE ITUNES SERVICE FOR INDEFINITE PERIODS OF TIME, OR CANCEL THE ITUNES SERVICE AT ANY TIME, WITHOUT NOTICE TO YOU.
So basically it is pointless to read the Terms of Service because they give you no rights at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by enjourni
I think the Europeans have the right idea ;-) In other words, the spirit of the First Sale Doctrine DOES still apply in the digital age. Especially in those cases where a person can sell or transfer their license to a digital product to another person after making their purchase (such as leaving the person their purchases in a Will.)
As long as something tangible (like a license) is being TRANSFERRED and not COPIED, then we revert back to the first sale doctrine before the digitial age, and I think it should be permitted. (Obviously when when a person dies they no longer are able to use their purchases, so this is a transfer and not a copy.)
100% behind you. However in the USA, the courts are currently split, likely because in Europe the consumer is put first, but in the USA, companies often are.
The argument is that since you never own the music file, you have no rights to transfer it. In fact you agreed to a license specifically taking away your rights before you received the file.
I hope this goes to the Supreme court and common sense prevails there as it did in the past with physical copyright objects, and has done in Europe with software licenses. Until then, this is rather gray area.
There only thing definite is that there is a clear cut difference between a CD and a digital file: The CD has protected transfer rights. The digital file has an unknown history ahead of it.
In terms of actual ownership you don't 'own' the music on that CD anymore than you 'own' the music you purchase from Apple or Amazon. The only difference in ownership is that you happen to own a physical object in the event of a CD. Both Apple and Amazon sell music which is DRM-free. Regardless of the EULA, they're not going to remotely disable those files. You can maintain them as long as you choose to do so. So the difference is nothing near what you choose to believe it in. You're just paying less attention to the 'ownership' of music delivered in one form over that of another while neither of which are enforced on a material level where your home is concerned.
Back to good ol' Bruce, he certainly could pass that music on to her. But passing on his account, or merging his account into hers, in the event of his death, is a slightly different story. And then there is the actual language regarding that account which implies something more in literal reading.
Quote:
Originally Posted by umrk_lab
1) In a distant future, you will not be able to buy a CD reader, because it will no longer exist
2) in a future which is closer to this (and not as distant as you would imagine) your CD will be corrupted, and unreadable
I think 1) is ridiculously far in the future, considering you can still buy brand new, high quality turntables for LPs.
There is really nothing that would corrupt a well-stored ROM CD. Keep it away from UV and mold, and it will outlast you easily, and your children.
Steve Jobs told everyone how to get around this in the early days... it's not that hard.
Purchase an album, burn to CD, re-rip to iTunes -- poof! DRM-Free music.
The music industry will never sign-off on people "owning" the tracks they buy, so he'd better start buying blank CD's now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by umrk_lab
1) In a distant future, you will not be able to buy a CD reader, because it will no longer exist
2) in a future which is closer to this (and not as distant as you would imagine) your CD will be corrupted, and unreadable
1. In the very distant future, maybe, but in the immediate distant future, no, because every Blu-ray drive can read both DVDs and CDs and the next generation of 4k or 8k video formats will also still maintain compatibility with DVD and CD. And long before CDs are resigned to the trash heap of media history, you'll be able to copy them faster and with even more ease than you can already do today.
2. B.S. I have CDs that are from the beginning of the format, almost 30 years old, and they still play perfectly. There's no reason why commercially pressed CDs that are stored in their cases shouldn't last at least 100 years. Even vinyl LPs produced in the 1950s and now 60 years old, if handled properly, still play relatively fine today. CD-Rs are another matter. I already have CD-Rs less than 10 years old that won't play anymore.
If you want to make an argument about the decline of the CD format, you can make one that says that within ten years, the major labels will largely stop producing CDs as CD sales are now at 25% of their 1999 peak.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xian Zhu Xuande
In terms of actual ownership you don't 'own' the music on that CD anymore than you 'own' the music you purchase from Apple or Amazon. The only difference in ownership is that you happen to own a physical object in the event of a CD. Both Apple and Amazon sell music which is DRM-free. Regardless of the EULA, they're not going to remotely disable those files. You can maintain them as long as you choose to do so. So the difference is nothing near what you choose to believe it in. You're just paying less attention to the 'ownership' of music delivered in one form over that of another while neither of which are enforced on a material level where your home is concerned.
Back to good ol' Bruce, he certainly could pass that music on to her. But passing on his account, or merging his account into hers, in the event of his death, is a slightly different story. And then there is the actual language regarding that account which implies something more in literal reading.
The language gives Apple the right to disable his children's accounts if he passes the files to them, since it is a use outside the Terms of Service. I agree that this is not likely under current competitive market conditions, but times change and the point would be to nip this in the bud.
Wow, over 90 posts and not one "yippee-ki-yay motherf--ker!" This time John McClane saves the world for real!
Originally Posted by diplication
Wow, over 90 posts and not one "yippee-ki-yay motherf--ker!" This time John McClane saves the world for real!
Post 45.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alonso Perez
More bull.
I have 30 year old CDs, all still playable. If I scratch them, my problem. Though if I was concerned about it I would make backups, legally as you point out.
Where does do the Terms of Service (It's not even an EULA, FYI), state specifically that I do not own my copy of the music? The Terms make liberal use of the word "purchase". Have you read the Terms?
Hint to you, a CD is a license for personal use, but it is not denominated. I can give the CD to anybody and that transfers the license automatically. You could say I own the use license, and thus I can do whatever I want with it. On iTunes I don't even own the use and it's actually worse because the Terms explicitly say that they Apple can cancel the service at any time for any reason and without notice:
So basically it is pointless to read the Terms of Service because they give you no rights at all.
Spot on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bboybazza
have to say i agree i buy 3-4 albums/movies a month not to mention apps and and to think when i go they just disapear into the either and cant be accessed by my son is insane. think i will have to start buying elsewhere and just transferring to itunes instead of buying from apple, until this whole mess is resolved.
Great idea, and never too early to start. I refuse to purchase music on iTunes even though I own several apple devices. I purchase all my music on Amazon.com. DRM free and very easy to transfer into iTunes after the fact. Until Apple lets me load music onto non-Apple devices after I purchase it, then I will not make purchases from them.
I usually browse for new music on iTunes because you get much longer song previews and the quality of the preview streaming is better. But once I find something I want to buy it's off to Amazon.com to make the purchase.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
Proof?
http://support.apple.com/kb/ht4895
Quote:
Can I merge multiple Apple IDs into one??
You cannot merge two or more Apple IDs into a single one. You can, however, use one Apple ID for iCloud services and another Apple ID for store purchases (including iTunes in the Cloud and iTunes Match). See “Using one Apple ID for iCloud and a different Apple ID for Store Purchases” above for details.
More discussion here:
http://www.macrumors.com/2011/10/13/apple-not-offering-apple-id-merging/
http://www.tuaw.com/2011/06/17/multiple-apple-ids-frustrated-by-apples-no-consolidation-policy/
Workarounds here:
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1248112
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alonso Perez
Don't be dense, I own a copy, and I can give it to anyone I please at any time.
If you want to be legalistic, I own a non-denominated license for personal use in perpetuity. This is why I can transfer it freely to anybody else for their personal use. Music in an iTunes account is denominated and apparently not transferable, and this is why Willis could decide to sue.
Can you rip MP3s from that album for your computer/iPod/iPhone and still legally give the CD away? Without deleting the MP3s?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bcode
Steve Jobs told everyone how to get around this in the early days... it's not that hard.
Purchase an album, burn to CD, re-rip to iTunes -- poof! DRM-Free music.
The music industry will never sign-off on people "owning" the tracks they buy, so he'd better start buying blank CD's now.
Yep. And except for the tunes bought in the very early days of iTunes, all his tracks are DRM free. Copy them to a hard drive and they are safe from any "action" Apple might take to shut down his or their accounts.
This is a case where someone who REALLY worries what's legal or not will be inconvenienced, but the average guy won't notice. "So sad that our dad died, he had some cool music. Oh we can just copy the files and drag them into iTunes. Is that legal? Who cares, it works, just like if each of us rip a copy of his CDs."
On the other hand, the APPS he bought are history, unless one of his daughters will take over his account and manage it as if he we still alive (good luck with that in the long run).
In practical terms what is stopping you. They can't merge the stuff to their account but if they have your password they can change the name etc. unless you are someone famous or tell them, how is Apple going to know about the death.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
Post 45.
Missed it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by John.B
Can you rip MP3s from that album for your computer/iPod/iPhone and still legally give the CD away? Without deleting the MP3s?
Not really. But people do it all the time.